You are right, the dog with 14 HD at level 20 is fine. Druids are destroying villages then... it just doesn't matter.
So here's a thought, you seem pretty concerned about the higher levels... what if we kept the premise of Jason's tables on page 1 but stepped up the advancement for the ACs you keep for the longest time. So the riding dog/ dire badger would actually have more HD then their higher tier counterparts. Higher tier creatures have better combat options to make up for the slightly lower HD.
Use Jason's Simple Solution #1 above but change the progression table so the ACs advance faster the longer you've had them.
Tier 1: Badger, Bat, Cat, Dog, Hawk, Lizard, Monkey, Owl, Pony, Rat, Raven, Snake (small V)
Tier 2 (level -3): Baboon, Camel, Dog (riding), Eagle, Horse (light/med), Hyena, Octopus*, Porpoise*, Shark (medium)*, Snake (medium V), Squid*, Wolf
Tier 3 (level -6): Ape, black bear, bison, boar, cheetah, croc*, dire badger, dire bat, dire weasel, leopard, shark (L)*, snake (const), snake (large V), wolverine
Tier 4 (level -9): Brown bear, giant croc, etc.
Tier 5 (level -12): Polar bear, dire lion, etc.
Tier 6 (level -15): Dire bear, elephant, giant octo*
Tier 7 (level -18): T-rex, dire tiger, etc.
Level/Bns HD/ NA/ Str/Dex/ Bns Trks
1st–2nd +0 ... +0 ... +0 ... 1 Link, share spells
3rd–5th +2 ... +2 ... +1 ... 2 Evasion
6th–8th +4 ... +4 ... +2 ... 3 Devotion
9th–11th +6 ... +6 ... +3 ... 4 Multiattack
12th–14th +9 ... +9 ... +4 ... 5
15th–16th +12 .. +12 ... +6 ... 6 Improved evasion
18th–20th +15 .. +15 ... +7 ... 7
That's actually a little bit wonky because at 20th level the dog would have more HD than the riding dog, etc.
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With regard to death of AC. I would have it work like a Wizard losing his failiar for replacing the AC. A slain animal companion cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain animal companion can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.
Year and a day provision was dropped from the Familiar with Pathfinder.
If you're going to enforce a 'year and a day' prohibition, then you may as well say you can never have another, since many campaigns run from level 1 to 20 in less than a year of game-time.
For the raid on the Cagewrights in SCAP, we levelled 3 times in one morning, 2 of which were within 15 minutes of each other. And no, I didn't use up half of my spells, so "Pffthhhp!" to those who keep whining about the inevitability of the '15-minute-day', and how it 'forces' PCs to rest.
My Baklunish heritage always gave me a beautiful skin and a lustrous beard since I was 12. If, however, I was one of those thin-blooded, decadent Suloise, I'd be one of those cliched acne-ridden, bumfluff-chinned 20th-level Archmages, that your Mrs Rowling writes about.
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Herein is the crux of the whole low level thing, I don't see druids as being relatively weak at lower levels. Even if he were weak at lower levels the riding dog/ wolf is overkill for compensating him for that weakness.
Especially for a Small druid, who can ride around on it, sharing spells.
(Yes, I hold my hand up to this one.)|
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Everybody keeps talking about sharing spells. It's been changed! It is no longer 2 for 1 buffs. This horse is not only dead but the carcass has been hauled off and turned into glue. Stop trying to flog it!
You are quite right. That's the trouble with reading rules that are based on a previous set. You see the old key words, and glaze over.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So here's a thought, you seem pretty concerned about the higher levels... what if we kept the premise of Jason's tables on page 1 but stepped up the advancement for the ACs you keep for the longest time. So the riding dog/ dire badger would actually have more HD then their higher tier counterparts. Higher tier creatures have better combat options to make up for the slightly lower HD.
Use Jason's Simple Solution #1 above but change the progression table so the ACs advance faster the longer you've had them.
** spoiler omitted **
Level/Bns HD/ NA/ Str/Dex/ Bns Trks
1st–2nd +0 ... +0 ... +0 ... 1 Link, share spells
3rd–5th +2 ... +2 ... +1 ... 2 Evasion
6th–8th +4 ... +4 ... +2 ... 3 Devotion
9th–11th +6 ... +6 ... +3 ... 4 Multiattack
12th–14th +9 ... +9 ... +4 ... 5
15th–16th +12 .. +12 ... +6 ... 6 Improved evasion
18th–20th +15 .. +15 ... +7 ... 7That's actually a little bit wonky because at 20th level the dog would have more HD than the riding dog, etc.
As an aside, a regular dog lacks the riding dog's trip ability (for whatever that's worth), so there's a balance there as well.
As for your point, it feels wonky, but it actually fits the premise you are trying to achieve, that keeping your FIRST companion is better for you in the long run than upgrading to a new, shiny mutant dire freaked-out mega-animal companion. You might not even go far enough with this; perhaps the per-level increases need to be larger still.
I actually rather like this idea, that the focus should be shifted with animal companions from having them be "get the latest and greatest" to "this is my favoritest companion in the world, who's been with me through thick and thin."
It would also achieve the subtextual design goal of having an ecologically reasonable companion. A druid and his dog or owl or cat or wolf or hawk or lynx or horse - yeah, we can all see that. A druid and his dino/elephant... okay, how is he feeding and cleaning up after this thing? I understand that it's an easy enough handwave (though create food and water would be a helpful addition to the druid's spell list for this), but I think it would feel a little nicer if druids were encouraged to have regular animals as their companions, and for big-time combat beasts they would be summoning temporary killer animals and such.
The one thing to think about is whether this super-advancement should apply only to a lower-level companion that you KEEP, or to any lower-level companion you might GAIN.
It's all well and good if Little Timmy's animal companion Lassie has a jillion perks cuz she's been around since 1st level, but if Lassie dies and Timmy doesn't bring her back to life (and here's an odd thought, if you reincarnate your animal companion and it comes back as something different, is it still your companion? Maybe that spell should have a specific provision that it brings back animal comps as themselves), then Timmy goes out and gets a new dog named Butch, does Butch have all the same level advancements that Lassie had? They're both dogs, so both would have that place on the advancement chart.
Maybe a real mind-blower would be this: Your CURRENT animal companion gains abilities each time you gain a level. It doesn't matter what it is or when you got it. At the point you acquire it, it is treated as a normal animal of its type, with link plus share spells.
You level up, it gets a level up (gains an animal HD, or perhaps a magical beast HD, since ACs are magical beasts after all)
You level up again, it levels up again.
You level up a third time, it levels up a third time.
Then it dies.
You have two choices:
1. Bring your old AC back to life. It retains all its level-ups.
2. Get a new AC (choosing from a new list at your new level). Your new AC, regardless of what kind it is, has NO level-ups.
You go up another level. If you have your old AC revived, it now has 4 level ups. If you got a new AC, it only has one.
Using this model, at 20th level you could have your original AC with 19 level-ups.
Or you could have a new one you got at higher-level that might only have a few or even none.
If you use em and lose em with regularity, you can certainly do that, but your ACs will never improve.
The point is this: Have ACs level when YOU level, which allows them to improve as long as you KEEP them. The key difference is that new ACs don't 'inherit' any old level-ups from your previous levels.
In terms of raw HD, your lower-level ACs will end up pretty much the same as your higher-level ones (rather than 6-8 HD behind them with the current system), in addition to having more customizability of feats (you can choose them as it levels up; higher-level animals have the feats they naturally possess when they arrive) and more level-related AC-specific abilities (evasion, speak with other animals, etc.).
Thoughts?
I would like to see all druids of a certain level have the same level of companion. This is better for consistency. Generally the sort of proposal you suggest punishes the beginning players who make mistakes disproportionately. Also, people who build higher level characters will always have full ACs, while people who have an 11th level druid from day one have a chance their companion got whacked at least once along the way.
My feeling is that if you want to 'penalize' a player for having his AC get killed make it so that the animal companions can only be replaced when the player levels up. It's not a huge penalty but it means they will likely wind up running for a while without their AC. Another possibility is a longer ceremony, perhaps a month of searching for an animal they can properly bond with.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I would like to see all druids of a certain level have the same level of companion. This is better for consistency. Generally the sort of proposal you suggest punishes the beginning players who make mistakes disproportionately. Also, people who build higher level characters will always have full ACs, while people who have an 11th level druid from day one have a chance their companion got whacked at least once along the way.
My feeling is that if you want to 'penalize' a player for having his AC get killed make it so that the animal companions can only be replaced when the player levels up. It's not a huge penalty but it means they will likely wind up running for a while without their AC. Another possibility is a longer ceremony, perhaps a month of searching for an animal they can properly bond with.
I'll agree to your point above, but I will also submit that it is equally true that anyone creating a druid character at high level is also able to optimize his feat choices and magic item purchases in a way that is not equally possible for a character who has been played up from 1st level. (even more true for wizards & sorcerers & bards & anyone else who has to actually select spells - you just bypass any that are capped at low levels and never take them - or other choice features like a ranger's fav enemy & terrain - you choose whatever the campaign IS (with hindsight knowledge) rather than having to basically guess what the campaign will entail down the road).
In theory, a new 12th level character should be functionally identical to a played-up-from-1st 12th level character. In practice, that will never be the case.
Besides, if you'll note above, I stipulated that a play-as-you-go character can get their familiar brought back to life with no loss of goodies, and even stipulated that the reincarnate spell should contain a special proviso that it restores an AC to life (with no CON loss I should add) in its previous form.
So, even if your original AC dies, you can have gotten it back and don't have to 'restart' with a new one unless you want to.
So here's a thought, you seem pretty concerned about the higher levels... what if we kept the premise of Jason's tables on page 1 but stepped up the advancement for the ACs you keep for the longest time. So the riding dog/ dire badger would actually have more HD then their higher tier counterparts. Higher tier creatures have better combat options to make up for the slightly lower HD.
Use Jason's Simple Solution #1 above but change the progression table so the ACs advance faster the longer you've had them.
** spoiler omitted **
Level/Bns HD/ NA/ Str/Dex/ Bns Trks
1st–2nd +0 ... +0 ... +0 ... 1 Link, share spells
3rd–5th +2 ... +2 ... +1 ... 2 Evasion
6th–8th +4 ... +4 ... +2 ... 3 Devotion
9th–11th +6 ... +6 ... +3 ... 4 Multiattack
12th–14th +9 ... +9 ... +4 ... 5
15th–16th +12 .. +12 ... +6 ... 6 Improved evasion
18th–20th +15 .. +15 ... +7 ... 7That's actually a little bit wonky because at 20th level the dog would have more HD than the riding dog, etc.
The chart needs to be adjusted so that the last couple of levels read +15 and +18, because, as of now, this doesn't fix the problem with the existing low-end pets. But I don't mind something AKIN to this.
Really, if the low-end pets need to be slowed down, but get boosts at the mid-high levels so they aren't instakill, I'm not bothered by low-end nerfs.
Jason, (there's no way to quote all of that text) I agree with most of what you say about the animal companion. I'd like the system to actively encourage and reward players for keeping the same old pet for a long time or getting a new one. Which is mostly why I'm pushing for the low-end options to get a boost later in the game.
I too would like to see players resurrecting pets instead of just getting new ones, I'd like to lose the scenario of "Awww...My kitty died *24 hours later*. Hello Velderan's Tiger # 79".
However, one thing to be conscious of is discouraging players from doing fun and interesting things. There are options like the dire badger or the deinonychus that, while not exactly common in our world, seem like pretty reasonable, if moderately exotic pet choices, and I don't want to punish those players.
I'm also troubled by the first tier of pets you proposed. I mean, come on, having a cat animal companion is stealing from the idea of a familiar (though,I'm not opposed to allowing druids to have a familiar), and, aside from that, it's a terrible option. A 19HD cat with cat intelligence is still useless at anything aside from being a 19 HD cat. I'm all for encouraging roleplaying, but let's not punish players by trying to promote really subpar options that are just kind of jammed into the framework of the system as a nerf.
I would suggest that maybe have 1st tier entries that have logical extensions into the next higher tier. For example: Dog -> Riding Dog or Cat -> Leopard, Small Viper -> Medium Viper...
Then just eliminate the highest tier progression. I'm not going to tink with 15 or 18 HD.
The problem with the higher level creatures is that it quickly has less to do with HD and more to do with special abilities. Deinonychus being a perfect example of this. 4 attacks + Pounce is quite nice and stacks quite well with Animal Growth and other druid buffs. How does a riding dog ever compete with that?
Jason: I guess reincarnating the AC is an option, and prevents some players from falling behind. At 1000GP and 10 minute casting time it's a quick, inexpensive fix past 7th level. Having the player wait until next level would actually be more of a burden in many cases.
I would suggest that maybe have 1st tier entries that have logical extensions into the next higher tier. For example: Dog -> Riding Dog or Cat -> Leopard, Small Viper -> Medium Viper...
Then just eliminate the highest tier progression. I'm not going to tink with 15 or 18 HD.
The problem with the higher level creatures is that it quickly has less to do with HD and more to do with special abilities. Deinonychus being a perfect example of this. 4 attacks + Pounce is quite nice and stacks quite well with Animal Growth and other druid buffs. How does a riding dog ever compete with that?
Jason: I guess reincarnating the AC is an option, and prevents some players from falling behind. At 1000GP and 10 minute casting time it's a quick, inexpensive fix past 7th level. Having the player wait until next level would actually be more of a burden in many cases.
That's an interesting idea (I had a DM do that with bears once). The problem with that is that it's a really drastic redesign, and that some options, like a dog or horse, don't really have things they can progress into (Except perhaps for Clifford...).
I agree, a deinonychus is WAY stronger than a riding dog/horse/eagle, but there's only so much that you can do before you're really pissing people off by taking out everything they like. For example, getting rid of the megaraptor seems fair to me because, if you really wanted one, it's not such a conceptual jump down to just take a deinonychus. I think the only thing we can do for this is to give it a slightly higher level adjustment so it doesn't end up completely dominating with things like pounce, but it's just not fair, on a conceptual level, to nerf it all the way out just because it is more powerful than other options. All we can do is tweak for balance, and hope DMs and Players use it wisely. Personally, I would rather err on the side that leaves the most options open and playable.
I would suggest that maybe have 1st tier entries that have logical extensions into the next higher tier. For example: Dog -> Riding Dog or Cat -> Leopard, Small Viper -> Medium Viper...That's an interesting idea (I had a DM do that with bears once). The problem with that is that it's a really drastic redesign, and that some options, like a dog or horse, don't really have things they can progress into (Except perhaps for Clifford...).
Dire Dog? Actually I was figuring they would progress from 1st tier to second so Dog->Riding Dog then the RD would use the matrix.
I agree, a deinonychus is WAY stronger than a riding dog/horse/eagle, but there's only so much that you can do before you're really pissing people off by taking out everything they like. For example, getting rid of the megaraptor seems fair to me because, if you really wanted one, it's not such a conceptual jump down to just take a deinonychus.
Well I'm not sure, I don't have time to seriously poke at the AC right now. The problem is there are so many options it's hard to really analyze. I'll try and do a rundown later tonight.
I am reposting this from a post on the ranger design forum, as a fix for the entire Animal Companion feature.
Certainly, with the Domain option for Druids in place of the AC, the PFRPG doesn't particularly care if the Druid has the AC as a required class feature mechanic. With that said, the alternate Hunter's Bond ability likewise seems to be a step away from the ACs. The Bonded Item, and Spirt Weapon ideas for the Wizard/Sorceror, and Paladin, respectively, seem to be providing non-critter alternate class features as well.
I think the ranger's or druid's AC should at least allow the ranger or druid to have a useful mount and/or combat assistant, and think that Leadership already provides a guideline as to what is useful for any given level. Using any alternate guideline when the limit on AC is so narrow, when the potential of Leadership is so broad, might be a mistake.
Let's assume that the only basis for the AC is Wild Empathy, and the Ranger/Druid is simply getting an animal from unfriendly to helpful. At level 5 with 0 bonus to charisma, *any* animal can be made at least indifferent 25% of the time. Or let's base it off of Handle Animal, hand raising an animal of 2 HD would succeed 50% of the time at level 4 and scales assuming a continued investment in Handle Animal at 1 HD per level. Shortchanging the advancement of the class feature to less than what the Ranger or Druid could possibly obtain with a skill (e.g. top end -- Hand raised Roc at DC 33, Hand raised Megaraptor at only DC 23) seems just underwhelming. I'd be for stripping out the HD and BAB progression from both ACs, and advancing them in general as cohorts. That way, the only thing that Druid level specifies is natural armor bonus, bonus tricks, extra strength and dex gains on top of HD advancement, and evasion. The Ranger AC would only be slightly behind, since both companions would be gaining regular HD advances. And, as a perk, switching out ACs would mean your new companion would lag until it leveled back up to where your old one would have been.
The Animal Companion is then kept as a feature, and can be genuinely useful for both classes, and there is positive incentive to keep low tier Animal Companions.
STOP.
Saying that riding dog needs to be the next tier makes Baby Jesus cry.
Yes, I do agree with PR. People griping about something so trivial as the riding dog makes me wonder if they've played the game past level 5.
I once had a player who decided that rangers were completely unplayable because he hadn't enjoyed levels 1-3.
Well I'm not sure, I don't have time to seriously poke at the AC right now. The problem is there are so many options it's hard to really analyze. I'll try and do a rundown later tonight.
Well, like I said, I aim towards options and DM control. The current Deinonychus is a 4hd animal with a -6 adjustment to the druid's level. That means it ranges from 4 HD at level 7 to 12 HD at level 20. Hell, I wouldn't even move it further down on the chart. It's fine as is. Hell, I think it needs more HD.
I once had a player who decided that rangers were completely unplayable because he hadn't enjoyed levels 1-3.
Oh, my. What a blithering tw*t. I certainly hope that you decided to remove him from your game under the guise of the game's cessation, all the while continuing to play (and immensely enjoy the lack of his presence).