Paladin - Good will save.

[Vult Wrathblades]

Well I have said it in another post but I feel this one needs repeating. How about giving Paladins a good will save.

Thoughts?

[Marty1000]

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

Well I have said it in another post but I feel this one needs repeating. How about giving Paladins a good will save.

Thoughts?

This makes perfect sense to me. Archetypical paladins are expected to persevere through attacks against their will and stamina. The stamina is represented by the good Fort save. Where is the good Will save? They should have it.

Mettle would then be the perfect compliment to both the good Fort and Will saves.

[Vult Wrathblades]

Marty1000 wrote:

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

Well I have said it in another post but I feel this one needs repeating. How about giving Paladins a good will save.

Thoughts?

This makes perfect sense to me. Archetypical paladins are expected to persevere through attacks against their will and stamina. The stamina is represented by the good Fort save. Where is the good Will save? They should have it.

Mettle would then be the perfect compliment to both the good Fort and Will saves.

Could not agree with you more!

[seekerofshadowlight]

eh this argument was made for the fighter as well, if someone who is trained day in and out to fight and who if he brakes can cost his side the battle , can not get good will I really dont see why a paladin should have good will saves

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

I have always said that they should take this point to indroduce intermediate saveing thorws. Being partial casters the paladin would get intermediate will saves.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I would be good with 3 stages of saves and not the 2

[Vult Wrathblades]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

eh this argument was made for the fighter as well, if someone who is trained day in and out to fight and who if he brakes can cost his side the battle , can not get good will I really dont see why a paladin should have good will saves

Wow, everyone else is using the argument that this is one area that paladins SHOULD shine over fighters...now we have an argument that if fighters cant have a good will save then paladins cant? wow *sigh*

[Jason Bulmahn]

I am giving this idea some thought. Basically it comes down to an issue of balance. Does the fighter abilities stack up to the paladin abilities. Right now, I think the fighter (assuming that feats get the proper ramp up) has it a bit better than the fighter, which means that this sort of adjustment might be warranted.

Thoughts?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[seekerofshadowlight]

well if you revamp the feats and make them much better and leave a good deal as fighter only then ya it may be ok. Others will soon way in on that however. In the end it'll be your call it just seems at times people want them to be good at everything.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

eh this argument was made for the fighter as well, if someone who is trained day in and out to fight and who if he brakes can cost his side the battle , can not get good will I really dont see why a paladin should have good will saves

Wow, everyone else is using the argument that this is one area that paladins SHOULD shine over fighters...now we have an argument that if fighters cant have a good will save then paladins cant? wow *sigh*

well man it seems to me as I look thought the many thread people want

better saves then the fighter
channel as a cleric
better damage out put then a fighter
some wanting to give them armor training
better smites, aura and lay on hands
even a few for more spells

so a better fighter then a fighter and better cleric then a cleric.......the paladin is a halfbreed class it should shine on the middle ground not out fight a fighter and out cleric a cleric.

Now I am not saying that's what you want but look at the threads and you will see that trend that was all I was saying

[Vult Wrathblades]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I am giving this idea some thought. Basically it comes down to an issue of balance. Does the fighter abilities stack up to the paladin abilities. Right now, I think the fighter (assuming that feats get the proper ramp up) has it a bit better than the fighter, which means that this sort of adjustment might be warranted.

Thoughts?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

First off thank you for looking at this. This is a huge step in the right direction, I appreciate it!

[Vult Wrathblades]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

eh this argument was made for the fighter as well, if someone who is trained day in and out to fight and who if he brakes can cost his side the battle , can not get good will I really dont see why a paladin should have good will saves

Wow, everyone else is using the argument that this is one area that paladins SHOULD shine over fighters...now we have an argument that if fighters cant have a good will save then paladins cant? wow *sigh*

well man it seems to me as I look thought the many thread people want

better saves then the fighter
channel as a cleric
better damage out put then a fighter
some wanting to give them armor training
better smites, aura and lay on hands
even a few for more spells

so a better fighter then a fighter and better cleric then a cleric.......the paladin is a halfbreed class it should shine on the middle ground not out fight a fighter and out cleric a cleric.

Now I am not saying that's what you want but look at the threads and you will see that trend that was all I was saying

Okay without being "snarky" please take a look at those posts again.

I dont think you and I are reading the same ones.

No one wants the paladin to be better at fighting than the fighter or better at healing than the cleric (at least no one who has put any thought into their posts).

What we want is the paladin to be a realistic threat in any fight against evil. Right now there is no comparison. The fighter, the barbarian, the ranger and even the ROGUE fight evil better than a paladin does...how is this right?

A simple always on mechanic would fix this. It would allow the paladin to join in the fights (only against evil) as these other classes would, and have some effect on how it plays out.

*sigh* I truly am not trying to sound "snarky" but I am getting very frustrated.

[Arakhor]

Better cleric than the cleric? Whatever you're smoking, please keep it well away from me. The paladin has always been a complicated class (by which I mean rather boring and crunch-less), so a few extra perks won't go amiss. The paladin should be a better fighter than the cleric, for obvious reasons, but no one ever mentioned better "clericing" (whatever that is) than the cleric.

[upsidedownlamp]

Indeed. Other posters are even chiming in, elsewhere on this board, these same folks asking for a revamp, to toss a big nerf on the paladin's mount: eliminate the summonability, at least until higher levels.

The summonability has been the one thing that's let me, as a player of paladins, keep the mount in play. This is a big nerf. ;) This means I'm not going to get any, if at all, use of my mount in a greater majority of scenes.

So, think again. They care about the flavor of the class. They're willing to take hits for it.

But, it seems as though the other message is coming through clearly enough: paladins should be the "go-to" guy for the battle against demon horde. They're not. So, how do you fix that?

Have suggestions? Please go post them in the appropriate threads. There are several, all discussing a variety of ideas. Just the number of them should say something!

And, a decent will save makes sense, especially from an IC point of view!

[seekerofshadowlight]

I do agree a paladin should indeed be a better demon hunter[or any evil outsider really] I myself have subjected a few things such as smite doing an extra 1d6/4 levels vs. evil outsiders. And the poki mount needs to go give him a real mount let it have INt and level something like a familiar.

what they do not need is every thing I listed above, a few of them maybe but not all of it.

I do think a paladin should have 2 major rolls killing evil outsider and the other major healer. And when i said a better cleric then a cleric well lets look

cleric gain spells, domains, channel and armor
a paladin gains many abltys better weapons and throwing full channel and casting on top of that. then ya he is a better cleric. I would be good with full channel but not full spells.

eh to each his own I guess guys

[seekerofshadowlight]

Hey vult don't worry about it man I don't take it personally. We all want the same thing and I was just pointing out how it was starting to look to me. I do look over folks ideals but to tell the truth when it's 10 sentences of number I just glance over it .

So maybe I missed something and maybe I'll come around yall keep throwing down your ideal i'll throw down mine jason will glance over everyone and we'll start the fun all over it's all good

[Freesword]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

what they do not need is every thing I listed above, a few of them maybe but not all of it.

I agree with your concerns. While the Paladin does need improvement, especially the Smite Evil ability (with Lay on Hands next), if everything being asked for were granted they would end up overshadowing Fighters and Clerics, the two classes they are a hybrid of.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I do think a paladin should have 2 major rolls killing evil outsider and the other major healer. And when i said a better cleric then a cleric well lets look

cleric gain spells, domains, channel and armor
a paladin gains many abltys better weapons and throwing full channel and casting on top of that. then ya he is a better cleric. I would be good with full channel but not full spells.

I don't recall anyone actually suggesting Paladins getting the full Cleric spell list and progression. Then again I haven't followed every single thread because of the number and their overlap. I have seen it suggested, and am not against, giving them and Rangers full Caster Level while maintaining the same spell list and number of spells per day. This would only affect numerical variables of spells and overcoming Spell Resistance. A mild increase to remove the oddity of 1/2 caster level classes. Do you consider this too much?

Full Channel I'm less in favor of as that is stepping on the Cleric's Iconic Shtick.

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

And the poki mount needs to go give him a real mount let it have INt and level something like a familiar.

If this is considered a nerf, then I'm all for nerfing them down to level of a Druid's Animal Companion. I welcome the end of the pokemount.

[Vult Wrathblades]

Hey, you are right man. Paladins should not get ALL that is being ask for, but there are a few things that could REALLY use a buff.

I personally think a good will save and Mettle (or whatever you wanna call it) would be amazing. But before that a fix to smite and and some form of an "always on" mechanic. A slight tweek to LoH and BAM you have what I would like to see in a paladin!

Truthfully there are a LOT of minor fixes, and only a few big ones.

Minor: good will save, Caster lvl = paladin lvl - 3, little tweak to LoH

Major: Better smite, Always on effect, and Mettle

I think those changes would be enough, and NOT to much.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

Hey, you are right man. Paladins should not get ALL that is being ask for, but there are a few things that could REALLY use a buff.

I personally think a good will save and Mettle (or whatever you wanna call it) would be amazing. But before that a fix to smite and and some form of an "always on" mechanic. A slight tweek to LoH and BAM you have what I would like to see in a paladin!

Truthfully there are a LOT of minor fixes, and only a few big ones.

Minor: good will save, Caster lvl = paladin lvl - 3, little tweak to LoH

Major: Better smite, Always on effect, and Mettle

I think those changes would be enough, and NOT to much.

that's a good balance no clue what mettle is however. The pokemount needs fixed to

[Vult Wrathblades]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

Hey, you are right man. Paladins should not get ALL that is being ask for, but there are a few things that could REALLY use a buff.

I personally think a good will save and Mettle (or whatever you wanna call it) would be amazing. But before that a fix to smite and and some form of an "always on" mechanic. A slight tweek to LoH and BAM you have what I would like to see in a paladin!

Truthfully there are a LOT of minor fixes, and only a few big ones.

Minor: good will save, Caster lvl = paladin lvl - 3, little tweak to LoH

Major: Better smite, Always on effect, and Mettle

I think those changes would be enough, and NOT to much.

that's a good balance no clue what mettle is however. The pokemount needs fixed to

I believe Mettle works something like Rogues improved evasion but it is fort or will based. Basically its the paladins force of will or constitution allowing him to ignore damage like a rogue would dodge it...I think, at least that is what I got from the description I read.

These changes would give ME the paladin I would like to see and I honestly think it would do much the same for MANY people on these boards.

[Snorter]

UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.

Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!