Paladin - the Martial side of the class

[Marty1000]

I've had some difficulty figuring out how to express how I view the paladin. That said, I will try to do it justice here.

I perceive the paladin in a different light than what I feel it has become in 3/3.5/PF/4E. The paladin to me is a shining knight whose skill at arms is to be respected by his allies and feared by his evil foes. His true heart, faith, and adherence to the Code grant him divine abilities to augment his role at the front in the battle against evil and chaos. I find in 3/3.5/4/PF that the emphasis on the "divine" side of the paladin, a channeller of divine power, has diminished the role of the paladin as a capable combatant in the thick of the battle. If you were to take away the paladin's divine abilities, you should still have a feared combatant. Honing and improving their fighting prowess is a Paladin's duty and not doing so is a violation of the code and an insult to their deity.

I have read at various forums of the two paths for Paladins - Palaldins of Strength and Paladins of Charisma. I think that there should be a balance of the two and right now, the paladin is much more focused on the Charisma side of things.

I would like to see the Paladin's role as an elite combatant be emphasized. He does not need to be brought up to the level of the Fighter in this regard but I think paladins should receive some combat feats ala the fighter, including access to weapon specialization, to help them in the role of a holy warrior. A paladin of equal level to a character of the NPC warrior class should be a better combatant before ever taking into account his divine abilities. Right now that is not the case.

In the end a paladin with simply having a good BAB and access to the various weapon and armour proficiencies is nothing special. They need more than what they have now.

I suggest the following:

Bonus combat feats: Paladins receive a new combat feat at 1st level and then every 4th level (i.e. 4th, 8th, 12th, etc.). These would be from the same list as the fighter.

Weapon Specialization: Paladins are eligible to select weapon specialization with their feats.

Armour Training: The use of armour is a hallmark of the paladin. It is part and parcel with the concept of the shining knight and it is unrealistic to think that they too would not improve in their skill of wearing armour. They should receive this ability equivalent to the fighter class. As a compromise it could be reduced to a fighter half the paladin's level.

These martial abilities that I have provided here should be in addition to all of the divine powers that a paladin now receives. I also think that the enhanced abilities suggested in these forums by Vult, RobertB and LastKnight should also be implemented. The divine powers are the reward for the role-playing side of the paladin. They also need some capability to help on the roll side. This may seem like alot, but in my opinion, I don't think so and I don't think that a paladin build should have to rely on taking so many levels of fighter first. It fits that with paladin as a core class, their fighting abilities should be there within the class design.

I appreciate your thoughts.

[upsidedownlamp]

The paladin should be the go-to guy when it comes to driving off evil. As it is, he's...very clearly not.

He's the guy who ends up with the healing wand and standing back out of the way while the "big fighters" handle the demon.

Based on all the threads here, the paladin definitely needs some help.

I was excited when the PF paladin initially came out. They gained many new abilities, many focused on healing. The paladin has access to several healing abilities, many of them through spells, or already-existing class features.

What wasn't strengthened as much was his martial role in the party.

It needs addressed in a big way.

[seekerofshadowlight]

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

[Vult Wrathblades]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

No one wants the paladin to be a fighter. We just want the paladin to do what he is supposed to do....fight evil. Currently you can play nearly any of the other melee classes and do that BETTER, it is not right.

I fully agree with the original poster in his assessment of the situation but not in his fix. Feats are the fighters area, I do not want to step on that. Simply adding a better smite, and lightbringer (or divine might) would be the answer.

[seekerofshadowlight]

well I think smite needs some work...longer durations and maybe 1d6 to evil outsiders per 4 levels would go a long way

[Vult Wrathblades]

Have you looked at mine or Robert Brambley's proposed fixes to smite? and the addition of lightbringer or Divine might?

[seekerofshadowlight]

i have not i will hunt them up..here was my ideal

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

[Vult Wrathblades]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

i have not i will hunt them up..here was my ideal

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may imbue her blade with holy power and her blade counts as both lawful and good for over coming DR. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. Also this power deal an extra 1d6 points of damage per 4 levels to outsiders of the evil subtype. This power stays active a number of rounds equal to her charisma modifier +1. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect.
At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table 4–9, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level.

I have no problem with that change to smite evil...it is good, and it makes paladins MUCH more capable.

My issue is that this still limits the paladin to ONLY smiting the BBEG. I do not feel that the BBEG's evil minions should be able to avoid the holy wrath just because they are pseudo evil (mini me comes to mind hehe). That is the essence of what Robert Brambley and I have come up with, with the ideas behind lightbringer and divine might. These abilities let the paladin bring his holy wrath against ALL that is evil. This also keeps the paladin fighting alongside the other martial classes, yet only against evil. And contrary to popular believe it does not make them BETTER than those classes, just on par with them...again, just against evil.

[Marty1000]

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

No one wants the paladin to be a fighter. We just want the paladin to do what he is supposed to do....fight evil. Currently you can play nearly any of the other melee classes and do that BETTER, it is not right.

I fully agree with the original poster in his assessment of the situation but not in his fix. Feats are the fighters area, I do not want to step on that. Simply adding a better smite, and lightbringer (or divine might) would be the answer.

Part of the problem though is.. The Paladin is a fighter.. at the least a type of fighter. They have to have some capability to fight well that isn't just based on divine ability. I don't like this description but I will use it - they are a hybrid of martial and divine. So I see a lot of divine abilities and good suggestions to improve the divine aspect of the paladin in his battle against evil (I think lightbringer/divine might are good suggestions. They should be added... but where are the paladin's martial abilities??? Are a good BAB, Fort save and proficiency with armour and martial weapons sufficient? I say they are not. Why the opposition to allowing the paladin some bonus feats. Feats are not exclusive to fighters. Every character class can take, with a few exceptions, the same feats. I'm suggesting the paladin gain a bonus feat every 4 levels and that they be eligible for weapon specialization and focus feats currently exclusive to fighters. At the very least just let them have access to the weapon spec feats and focus feats. This would, in a realistic and not onerous way, reflect their martial skills and formal weapon training, and makes them just a bit better in their basic fighting skills than your joe man-at-arms (NPC warrior class) of the same level. It also gives them some offensive pop, if they spend the feats, when they are fighting at the front line in melee. They aren't getting as many feats as a fighter, they don't get weapon training et al, rangers still have their skills and fighting styles and spells, barbarians have their exceptional abilities and rage... let the paladin have the needed martial prowess that gains them a little more respect in a straight up melee fight.. the type of fight they are forced into by their code (at least one based on chivalric code).

[Vult Wrathblades]

Marty1000 wrote:

Vult Wrathblades wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

No one wants the paladin to be a fighter. We just want the paladin to do what he is supposed to do....fight evil. Currently you can play nearly any of the other melee classes and do that BETTER, it is not right.

I fully agree with the original poster in his assessment of the situation but not in his fix. Feats are the fighters area, I do not want to step on that. Simply adding a better smite, and lightbringer (or divine might) would be the answer.

Part of the problem though is.. The Paladin is a fighter.. at the least a type of fighter. They have to have some capability to fight well that isn't just based on divine ability. I don't like this description but I will use it - they are a hybrid of martial and divine. So I see a lot of divine abilities and good suggestions to improve the divine aspect of the paladin in his battle against evil (I think lightbringer/divine might are good suggestions. They should be added... but where are the paladin's martial abilities??? Are a good BAB, Fort save and proficiency with armour and martial weapons sufficient? I say they are not. Why the opposition to allowing the paladin some bonus feats. Feats are not exclusive to fighters. Every character class can take, with a few exceptions, the same feats. I'm suggesting the paladin gain a bonus feat every 4 levels and that they be eligible for weapon specialization and focus feats currently exclusive to fighters. At the very least just let them have access to the weapon spec feats and focus feats. This would, in a realistic and not onerous way, reflect their martial skills and formal weapon training, and makes them just a bit better in their basic fighting skills than your joe man-at-arms (NPC warrior class) of the same level. It also gives them some offensive pop, if they spend the feats, when they are fighting at the front...

I would prefer to have lightbringer or divine might...but your suggestion would work if givin just a few bonus feats.

[GeraintElberion]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

But the fighter is a bit rubbish beyond 5th.

Can't we boost the fighter and the paladin?

[Vult Wrathblades]

GeraintElberion wrote:

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

well truth is if you want to be a fighter then play a fighter. A paladin should never be as good a fighter as the fighter.

But the fighter is a bit rubbish beyond 5th.

Can't we boost the fighter and the paladin?

I think the fighter was GREATLY boosted with beta, and after reading a lot of the design forum stuff I think they are gonna get some more! This is great for the fighter but these "paladin" threads are for the paladin. We should be concerned with him now, the fighter has had its look and I think it is looking really good! Lets do the same for the paladin!

[Squirrelloid]

What the Paladin really needs:

Smite Evil (Su): Whenever you attack an evil creature, add 1d6 holy damage on a successful hit. This damage increases by an additional 1d6 for every odd level after 1st.

Some fighter bonus feats aren't a bad idea either, but the above at least makes his damage relevant.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Squirrelloid wrote:

What the Paladin really needs:

Smite Evil (Su): Whenever you attack an evil creature, add 1d6 holy damage on a successful hit. This damage increases by an additional 1d6 for every odd level after 1st.

Some fighter bonus feats aren't a bad idea either, but the above at least makes his damage relevant.

ummm 10d6 is a bit much. 1D6/4 LEVELS is good balance. that's 5d6 at 20th

[Squirrelloid]

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Squirrelloid wrote:

What the Paladin really needs:

Smite Evil (Su): Whenever you attack an evil creature, add 1d6 holy damage on a successful hit. This damage increases by an additional 1d6 for every odd level after 1st.

Some fighter bonus feats aren't a bad idea either, but the above at least makes his damage relevant.

ummm 10d6 is a bit much. 1D6/4 LEVELS is good balance. that's 5d6 at 20th

Wait, Rogues get 10d6 against virtually everything assuming they can flank. But 10d6 against evil creatures is too much? Seriously? Its 35 damage per hit on average, and you should be expecting 2 hits, so that's 70 + base damage ~= 130ish/round, which is appropriate for 20th level.

[Montalve]

i agree
and rogues can do any time they want, while paladins only get a few times a day

i agree the damege from Smite Evil should be pushed up or do it something constant

like making +2 vs evil in every attack even if they don't know they fight evil (fiath doesn't care), and i agree it couldgrou every 4 levels to a total of +10 constant vs evil

lot less thaneither 5d6 or 10d6... but constant damage would indeed make him feared by the servants of hell and abyss

[Snorter]

UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.

Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!