Would it break the Paladin to allow him to Lay on Hands as a swift action? This would allow him to use the ability and still move and fight, would allow him to heal himself while still moving and fighting, and would allow him to use up to three of his lay on hands in one round if he needed to, if you allow him to use his move action and standard action to power the ability.
Well said and I think this would be a HUGE step forward in helping the paladin, though fixing his divine damage (smite/lightbringer/divine might) is where you will truly "let him shine"
This is an interesting thought, although I think I would limit it so that you can use it as a swift action only if you are healing yourself, so as to prevent his from becoming a weird component of fights with undead.
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Good point. I always forget about healing being used offensively. But I do think it becomes a lot more useful for the paladin if they don't waste their move or standard action to heal themselves when they are in the thick of it.
Good point. I always forget about healing being used offensively. But I do think it becomes a lot more useful for the paladin if they don't waste their move or standard action to heal themselves when they are in the thick of it.This is an interesting thought, although I think I would limit it so that you can use it as a swift action only if you are healing yourself, so as to prevent his from becoming a weird component of fights with undead.
Thoughts
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Good point, yes limiting this to healing only would make sense and still improve the ability.
Unless you have a house rule allowing trading other action types for Swift Actions, you are only allowed 1 Swift Action per round. As such, unless you are using the ability to convert 4 uses of Lay on Hands into a Heal, you only get the healing function of 1 use per round.
I know its not standard in the rules. I was kind of wondering though, if a paladin using a full round action shouldn't be allowed to burn three of them though (I started suggesting that you could trade down action types, then realized I was advocating a 4e rule . . . eep).
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This is an interesting thought, although I think I would limit it so that you can use it as a swift action only if you are healing yourself, so as to prevent his from becoming a weird component of fights with undead.
Consolidating the Lay On Hands and Turn Undead mechanic (as suggested in another thread) would make this both an offense and defense ability, balanced by choosing how best to use it in combat. It would also help define the difference in the role of a Cleric and a Paladin in a party. Plus it gets rid of all the stackable math that comes with Turn Undead and the Cleric/Paladin.
Just my two cents.
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Would it break the Paladin to allow him to Lay on Hands as a swift action? This would allow him to use the ability and still move and fight, would allow him to heal himself while still moving and fighting, and would allow him to use up to three of his lay on hands in one round if he needed to, if you allow him to use his move action and standard action to power the ability.
Make it a feat for the paladin to use lay on hands as a swift or immediate action.
The problem with this is it makes Lay On Hands a selfish ability, and it's not supposed to be that. In-game, the ability exists to help others.
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The problem with this is it makes Lay On Hands a selfish ability, and it's not supposed to be that. In-game, the ability exists to help others.
True enough. The role of the paladin is to help others. Unfortunately the paladin currently is so far behind the power curve level of the other classes that we need to first help him....then we can worry about helping everyone else.
Robert
True enough. The role of the paladin is to help others. Unfortunately the paladin currently is so far behind the power curve level of the other classes that we need to first help him....then we can worry about helping everyone else.
But if we do that in a way that compromises what the class is supposed to be, then we hurt it far more in the long run.
I don't see how the paladin not dying while holding off an enemy so that that enemy can't kill his friends is selfish. It would only make the ability selfish if the paladin could no longer use it to heal others.
I don't see how the paladin not dying while holding off an enemy so that that enemy can't kill his friends is selfish. It would only make the ability selfish if the paladin could no longer use it to heal others.
He is being encouraged to heal himself. In comparison, it is harder for him to heal others. Hence, if he has to choose between healing himself or healing someone else, this would give him motivation to heal himself, but Paladin's aren't supposed to work that way. Of course he can heal himself, but he shouldn't be his first priority.
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Would it break the Paladin to allow him to Lay on Hands as a swift action? This would allow him to use the ability and still move and fight, would allow him to heal himself while still moving and fighting, and would allow him to use up to three of his lay on hands in one round if he needed to, if you allow him to use his move action and standard action to power the ability.Make it a feat for the paladin to use lay on hands as a swift or immediate action.
Lay on hands healing is almost useless in combat and you are advocating that they have to waste a feat to make it marginally useful?
Howsabout instead of saying that it's only the paladin say it's only healing period. He should be able to swift heal others as well, just not use it against undead (although honestly as piddlydink as the amount of damage it would deal at any given level is I don't even think it would be a problem if you could swift lay on hands to hurt)
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(although honestly as piddlydink as the amount of damage it would deal at any given level is I don't even think it would be a problem if you could swift lay on hands to hurt)
Given that it requires a touch attack action to use in that fashion, I think Jason is justly wary of offering paladins a swift action touch attack, no matter the context...
It most certainly should be his first priority. If he dies, he's not around to heal everyone else. It's like the whole oxygen mask speech you hear when you get on a plane; if the cabin loses pressure and you're traveling with someone who needs help putting on an oxygen mask, put your own mask on first.
Paladins are not pragmatists. If he really needs the healing, he should heal himself, but the difference between a standard and a swift action is so great that I don't see Paladins ever stopping to LOH someone else in combat, not unless they're already down, and even then maybe just to stabilize them.
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It most certainly should be his first priority. If he dies, he's not around to heal everyone else. It's like the whole oxygen mask speech you hear when you get on a plane; if the cabin loses pressure and you're traveling with someone who needs help putting on an oxygen mask, put your own mask on first.Paladins are not pragmatists. If he really needs the healing, he should heal himself, but the difference between a standard and a swift action is so great that I don't see Paladins ever stopping to LOH someone else in combat, not unless they're already down, and even then maybe just to stabilize them.
Definitely, hell in my playtest I tried to use it when an ally was down to get him up and the result was so disasterous that I'll never do it again,
A) I had to break from the BBEG to heal him so I didn't take the AoO leaving the BBEG free to run or cast a spell etc.
B) the BBEG kicked him (with a featless unarmed strike) rolled a 1 for damage, and still did more than I healed.
If lay on hands becomes a swift just to heal myself, I can garuntee that you can say bye bye to me ever using it on an ally since it isn't worth it. I don't like encouraging that kind of mechanical selfishness on the paladin. So please, make it a swift action to heal anyone, not just the Paladin.
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If lay on hands becomes a swift just to heal myself, I can garuntee that you can say bye bye to me ever using it on an ally since it isn't worth it. I don't like encouraging that kind of mechanical selfishness on the paladin. So please, make it a swift action to heal anyone, not just the Paladin.
I concur! Given that the paladin already has an offensive mechanic (however piddly) in Smite Evil, I'm actually in favor of removing the paladin's ability to use Lay on Hands offensively entirely - it removes the biggest roadblock in the way of making Lay on Hands a useful ability.
I am in favor of allowing Lay on Hands to be a swift action, thus giving the paladin, in effect, a pool of temporary hit points each round until he's out of LoH uses - or upping the number of LoH uses he can apply in single standard action to a number equal to his charisma mod. Otherwise it removes the iconic Paladin healer from the game entirely, except in an out of combat context. That is a flavor change I have heartily disapproved of since the LoH changes in PF were introduced.
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I concur! Given that the paladin already has an offensive mechanic (however piddly) in Smite Evil, I'm actually in favor of removing the paladin's ability to use Lay on Hands offensively entirely - it removes the biggest roadblock in the way of making Lay on Hands a useful ability.
Agreed, as it stands I don't think I would ever use my healing to try and hurt undead as limited as it is, so if I couldn't use it too I wouldn't care less
but it needs to be a viable healing ability to use on your allies, and right now it just plain isn't. no effect that give healing at a rate of 1 per level is.
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UPDATE ALERT: A REVISED VERSION OF THE BETA PALADIN HAS BEEN POSTED BY JASON ON THIS THREAD.
Check it out, and save yourselves debating changes that have already occurred!