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Apologies if this is the wrong time/place for this subject.
One of my biggest complaints about Clerics and Druids (also, Paladins and Rangers to a lesser extent) is the lack of any barrier to their adaptability when it comes to spellcasting.
Wizards have spellbooks (cost being the barrier), Sorcerers and Bards are limited by spells known. However, Clerics and Druids have no limit to the spells available for them to prepare with a simple night's rest.
The issue (to me) is that it devalues other spellcasting classes while adding value to spellcasting classes that are already chok-full of nice class abilities (especially the Druid). Once you add the fact that Clerics never need to prepare their cure spells, and Druids don't need to prepare summon nature's ally, these classes become even more adapatable.
I'm not against adaptability; I just think it's unbalancing in this case when viewed through the Wizard/Sorcerer prism. It also makes challenging the party more difficult from a DM perspective. All the Cleric or Druid needs is a night of rest; come tomorrow, the party is effectively immune to negative energy (or poison, or whatever else).
I would like to see some type of limiting feature added to the Cleric's and Druid's spellcasting preparation. For example, there could be a "Prayerbook" requirement levied on either or both classes that might be similar to the Wizard's Spellbook. Maybe something mechanically similar, but thematically different.
I realize this is probably too big of a change for backward compatibility's sake (and is coming late in the game), but I'd still like to get the thoughts of others on this subject.
-Skeld
Seconded.
I don't know how "official" you want to make this. The fact that clerics and druids don't have to worry about "prayer books" is part of their draw to some players, and it seems even less intuitive for druids than for clerics.
I've had a rule in my campaign that you couldn't use spells outside of the PH spells unless you have been instructed how to pray for them, but unlike the wizard, there is no chance to fail or need to write down the prayer once you know the divine spell exists.
Perhaps a simple clarification like this would help out.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'd really not like a change like this. Yes, it gives clerics or druids more flexibility, but in large part, that's because many/most of their spells are utility and condition removal spells. It's hard enough to be a primary divine caster for a party, and get to use your cool combat spells too much, because you need to keep spells available to heal, to deal with poison, paralysis, feat, ability drain, death, etc. and to deal with protecting from various forms of harm, using spells like resist energy, water breathing, death ward, etc. Not to mention generic buff type spells like bless and prayer.
To limit their spell list would make it VERY hard to play the traditional healer role, and still have some spells that you also know to use more directly in combat, such as searing light, flame strike, etc.
I wouldn't mind a rule as suggested about spells from beyond the core book needing to be learned once from a source for free, or researched like a wizard researching a spell.
That is an interesting idea.
One of the problems with high-level play is the prep time, and one of the problems with prep time is that clerics can check every spell in every book.
Edit: I do think there's an approach to granting everying in core to divine casters, but limiting non-core books. That does seem to be entering optional rule territory, though.
Director of Games
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Being a cleric is tricky enough, especially considering that most of their spell list is designed to solve specific problems. Limiting this would really hamper the class, making it something I am not too interested with.
In other words.. I agree with Joel.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Conversely, then, you must act to counter the non-utility/situational spells that have become prevalent on the expanding list.
Flame strike jumps out as offensive to me.
There are already a few limits to the spells that clerics can cast. Fortunately/Unfortunately (dependent upon your point of view), there are comparatively few such spells. A good cleric, for example, could not cast an evil spell.
While I wouldn't like to see the spell options dramatically drop down, one alternative option would be to expand upon the mechanic of alignment based spells. I wouldn't be too upset about seeing clerics with the fire domain unable to cast spells with the water descriptor and vice versa (unless the cleric took both domains - crazy nature deities).
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We played with a mechanic based almost entirely on flavor similar to this. The idea came out of the Kalamar setting.
The cleric had a "prayer book" that he looked through for inspiration to memorize his spells. As a cleric advanced, he would discover new inspiration, allowing higher level spells. A cleric could have a mentor show him how a passage could grant a new spell not discovered before.
Mechanically, the "prayer book" granted a +2 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (religon) checks involving that diety. we toyed with the idea of granting a bonus to turning, but eventually through that out (no one remembered to use it). And more importantly, mechanically, it made no change to the existing rules, just flavor.
The only limitation was that a cleric without his prayer book could not change the spells in his memory without seaking divine inspiration in the words of his prayer book. The spells he had memorized yesterday would be the ones restored after rest. This cut down some prep time, as players would have a set list at times.
As a Dm, I have in the past used my "divine right" as the roleplayer of the dieties in question, NOT granted the PCs the spells they have "prayed" for.
For example, in our high level campaign, the cleric was constantly resurrecting the players that had fallen in combat. As DM, I decided that only those PCs that either served the cleric's patron diety or one of her allies, would be granted this spell cast successfully. My PCs either converted or became very cautious, increasing the chance for roleplay and flavor of "religon" in my campaign.
The idea I like is giving all clerics of common list of central spells, and then divvying up the rest to the domains (including spells currently not on the cleric or domain lists). That way, a Fire cleric and a Water cleric are substantially different.
We played with a mechanic based almost entirely on flavor similar to this. The idea came out of the Kalamar setting.
The cleric had a "prayer book" that he looked through for inspiration to memorize his spells. As a cleric advanced, he would discover new inspiration, allowing higher level spells. A cleric could have a mentor show him how a passage could grant a new spell not discovered before.
Mechanically, the "prayer book" granted a +2 circumstance bonus to Knowledge (religon) checks involving that diety. we toyed with the idea of granting a bonus to turning, but eventually through that out (no one remembered to use it). And more importantly, mechanically, it made no change to the existing rules, just flavor.
The only limitation was that a cleric without his prayer book could not change the spells in his memory without seaking divine inspiration in the words of his prayer book. The spells he had memorized yesterday would be the ones restored after rest. This cut down some prep time, as players would have a set list at times.
As a Dm, I have in the past used my "divine right" as the roleplayer of the dieties in question, NOT granted the PCs the spells they have "prayed" for.
For example, in our high level campaign, the cleric was constantly resurrecting the players that had fallen in combat. As DM, I decided that only those PCs that either served the cleric's patron diety or one of her allies, would be granted this spell cast successfully. My PCs either converted or became very cautious, increasing the chance for roleplay and flavor of "religon" in my campaign.
That description pleases me. Might make a good variant.
Being a cleric is tricky enough, especially considering that most of their spell list is designed to solve specific problems. Limiting this would really hamper the class, making it something I am not too interested with.
In other words.. I agree with Joel.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hmm, would it not be better than to address those issues (healing, and condition alleviation) rather than leaving the Cleric overpowered to apparently compensate and attract players to the class? I don't mind playing a supporting character, but many players do. In my Cleric playtests (I was the DM), several issues with healing have come up, but I think these are fixable in ways that would maintain the Cleric as a healer, yet enable him to contribute in other ways.
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Being a cleric is tricky enough, especially considering that most of their spell list is designed to solve specific problems. Limiting this would really hamper the class, making it something I am not too interested with.
In other words.. I agree with Joel.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
i agree
every day i msut plan more orless what we are going to counter or what are we going to do... yes i have options for chosing... but what would happen today that i can choose the right spell?there is now ay to know that they the DM has somethign prepared for what your list of chosen spells are useless...
yes cleric spells are utilitarian with fe combat spells
toyrobot... then i should be offended by the abuse of fireballs by the wizard? that does more damage, to more targets and its overabsued in most games?
leave my spell list alone... asit is.. its difficult to get anything done
(hate my poor bard's spell list... she should have been rogue/wizard... but oh no... for a captain its better to be able to bust her crew with orders... meh)
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The idea I like is giving all clerics of common list of central spells, and then divvying up the rest to the domains (including spells currently not on the cleric or domain lists). That way, a Fire cleric and a Water cleric are substantially different.
ok... this i may find interesting...
ifthe cleric got all her god/goddess domains... i would agreeotherwise you would be hampering them... so no cleric without the healing domain would be able to heal?
or without the good domain to bless?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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The idea I like is giving all clerics of common list of central spells, and then divvying up the rest to the domains (including spells currently not on the cleric or domain lists). That way, a Fire cleric and a Water cleric are substantially different.
I've always been of this mindset. This is perhaps less of an issue since PF doesn't use Domain spells in the SRD sense, but for my money NO domain spells should be on the common spell list, and vice versa. If a spell is on a domain list, it should be off the main list.
This may not really apply with the new model of domains, though.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Why not just keep the total number of spells available to a cleric/druid/paladin/ranger as a fixed constant regardless of how many sourcebooks you have? If you want a spell from a sourcebook, you have to swap out a PRPG spell to get it. Just add a spells known table that coincidently matches to the number of spells of each level in the PRPG. It would be about two extra lines, (not requiring a level variable).
It certainly customises your cleric and makes them more flavourful – surely evil clerics of the Death god are not allowed to know any cure spells, or the Water devotee flame strike. How sacrilegious!
ifthe cleric got all her god/goddess domains... i would agree
Well, we still want the cleric to be able to customize, and getting all a given god's domains would hamper that (though at the same time,
Thing is, I envision the domain lists being big, like, really big. The final cleric wouldn't have many less than the current cleric. Two should be all you need.
otherwise you would be hampering them... so no cleric without the healing domain would be able to heal?
Hampering I don't have much of a problem with, to be perfectly honest. Clerics do need a power-down. But no, I'd want at least the "Cure" line on the general list, at least up to a point.
Though, maybe not. As long as we spread out healing duties, we might be able to get away with making your average clerics not all that great at healing, which would be good for clerics because it means the party couldn't reasonably expect every cleric to be their own personal healbot.
I like Arnin Thayer's idea a lot. In fact, I like most of the ideas in this thread - it is chock-full of great options on how to restric the Cleric's spell list. In my campaigns, I often use the "no cleric spells from supplements unless explicitly learned" system, but there are many great systems here providing me with inspiration and I might use one of them in the future.
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We had to fast-convert the cleric's spell list in our old FR campaign when 3.0 became 3.5. Some of the general cleric spells (Magic of Faerun) were turned into deity specific spells(Player's Guide to Faerun), eliminating them from the PC cleric's list. Only with the appropriate deity and the corresponding Initiate of... feat did those spells become available again.
This worked to help limit some of the uber-spells from Magic of Faerun. And in general, I used the Living Greyhawk rules on permissible spells to weed out spells from the extremely broken Spell Compendium.
Example:
Vortex of Teeth (SpC pg 232)
A 4th level spell that allows no Saving throw and creates a 40 foot radius cylinder (with a 5 ft. safe zone at the center) and lasts 1 round/level (minimum of 7 rounds)dealing 3d8 points of FORCE Damage each round.
Only defense (at casting)? Spell resistance.
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I'm not against adaptability; I just think it's unbalancing in this case when viewed through the Wizard/Sorcerer prism. It also makes challenging the party more difficult from a DM perspective. All the Cleric or Druid needs is a night of rest; come tomorrow, the party is effectively immune to negative energy (or poison, or whatever else).
You remember of course that both clerics and druids still need prep time in the morning to memorize spells in the first place, just like a wizard, right? If that prepartation time is interrupted or the environment is particularly noisy or otherwise difficult to prepare spells in... well you get the picture. Also, don't forget that battling negative energy and healing is the cleric's specialty just as area of effect damage at range is a wizard's.
I would like to see some type of limiting feature added to the Cleric's and Druid's spellcasting preparation. For example, there could be a "Prayerbook" requirement levied on either or both classes that might be similar to the Wizard's Spellbook. Maybe something mechanically similar, but thematically different.
If you look at something mechanically similar, you by means change on the of the fundamental parts of the cleric class--you severly limit their spell list (this would also filter down to the Paladin and the Ranger since they function in a similar fashion to the Cleric). Part of the Cleric's strength is that she has access to a large pool of spells up front; but she is still limited by only being able to prepare a few each day.