Director of Games
|
Welcome to the third stage of the playtest for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. We have now wrapped up the first two stages of the playtest, which took a look at the Ability Scores, Races, and some of the Classes (Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger). We are now continuing on with classes, moving our focus to the Cleric, Druid, and Paladin classes. Over the next six weeks, we will look through the remaining classes, in two week increments. Comments on the other classes, or other parts of the rules (such as spells), should wait until we reach their portion of the playtest. As a general note, if the rules would not be placed in this chapter, then it should probably wait (so the animal companion rules of the druid are appropriate to discuss here, but particular druid spells should wait until the Spells chapter). There is one exception to this rule, as noted below. When discussing the Classes, start your thread title out with the name of the class, followed by the issue you want to discuss. For example, if you wanted to talk about the Paladin's ability to smite evil, your thread subject might read: Paladin - Smite Evil.
To get things started here, we need to take a look at all three of these classes. Here are some areas that need a good solid look at.
- Clerics: As an exception to the normal rules, I would like to discuss cleric domains now. These domains are tied closely to the cleric and druid classes and as such, need to be looked at now. Which ones are too good? Which ones need work? Which ones have unclear powers?
- Druids: Do they need a better capstone (20th level) ability? If so, what should it be? Are there other powers that the druid is missing? Is the druid a bit overpowered?
- Druids - Animal Companions: Do they work as written? Do they add too much complexity to the game? Do they overbalance the druid?
- Paladins: Smite evil could be better. In what ways could this ability be more useful without increasing its number of uses? Lay on hands: Does it work as intended? Is it simple to use than the host of lesser abilities?
- Paladin - Auras: Are these the correct aura selections for the paladin's theme? Are the auras balanced?
This is an area of the rules that can be quite contentious. To keep things clean, I would appreciate that you label your threads appropriately and keep things civil. Presenting entirely rebuilt classes is not very useful to us at this point, but presenting fixes to the rules we have is quite useful. Please keep that in mind, when you are posting. Finally, lets try not to stray all over the book in these discussions. It is really easy to start talking about feats and spells when we discuss classes and I would really like to stay on focus.
The first classes playtest was a great success and I look forward to this section being just as fruitful. Keep up the solid work.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
- Paladins: Smite evil could be better. In what ways could this ability be more useful without increasing its number of uses?
Why would you NOT increase the number of uses of smite? From everything I have seen and everyone I have talked to this is basically its BIGGEST flaw. It is not near so powerful that it should be so limited. I wont get into all of my reasons here, I posted a thread specifically about this issue. I am just curious why you would want to keep the limit in uses so small?
|
Jason,
I think that the best way to handle the paladin Auras and Smites would be to give the paladin more options and some ways to "customize" their abilities -- either by handling these abilities as Paladin Talents or Divine/Smite Powers (similar to picking Rage Powers). The third best option in my eyes is to include Divine Feats that allow you to "upgrade" or modify your Smite Evil and Auras.
We originally "brainstormed" some dozens of Aura/Smite Powers on the Alpha threads -- would you like to see them reposted here or on a thread of their own?
|
|
Oh, I forgot to mention this:
- Paladins: in my opinion 'Lay on hands' works brilliantly in, because I think it works thematically really well now (I've always seen it rather as a slow process of healing than a quick and raw burst or lash of Positive Energy). The paladin's player in my group agrees with me, although he *did* say that he misses "zapping" liches with 100+ points of Positive Energy damage with a single touch attack. ;)
As a micro-response:
Paladin Smites— there is nothing worse than watching your PC blow his only smite on a botched roll. In the general forum, someone suggested that Smite should not be a per-day power at all, but a constant ability of the paladin to wail on evil. It might need to be toned down a bit, but something like "Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec vs. Evil" might not be completely out of line, especially if it's just a scaling class ability.
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
As to the Druid capstone, I don't think it is bad in and of itself (but that is just from looking at it - the Pathfinder Druid has not been playtested in my group at this point in time), but you should consider the effects this might have should you chose to provide some Epic level rules in the future. In fact, you should probably consider that with all the capstone abilities. Stopping a progression of an ability at level 20, means that it can no longer progress beyond that level once Epic rules are introduced and Wildshape is a rather fundamental ability of the Druid. I know you are focused on levels 1-20 at the moment and the task of that alone is enormous, but it is still good to try to bear those kinds of issues in mind rather than set up problems for the future.
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
oooooooooo....
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
that is a great ideal.
Also it could be in effect a number of rounds equal to your cha modifier. So even at low levels you might be able to use if a few times with one use
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
This is the best idea I've heard in the forums on Smite Evil. I feel it is a pretty strong power, but it can be painfully lost. Of course, so can a wizard's best "Charm Monster" spell, but the Paladin has fewer to use. If the Paladin misses, it's sort of "holding the holy charge". That would give a high Charisma paladin a *lot* more/better chances to hit a high AC target.
I would also possibly suggest limiting its use to once per round (though that complicates a bit with the holding the charge aspect). This would keep a Paladin from totally blowing everything all at once and feeling useless the rest of the day.
It seems like the basic Lay on Hands does need something. As it is, Lay has become basically a single target Channel Energy - not too likely to ever be used in combat. Perhaps at least two uses as a full-round action?
One note of caution: don't put too many more things on Charisma for Paladins - they synergize off it a heck of a lot already (Saves, attacks, healing, etc.)
|
I think a possible improvement to Smite Evil could be a rule that a missed attack does not expend the ability. It stays active until the Paladin manages to hit an opponent (though if the opponent proves not to be evil, the ability is expended anyway).
that is a great ideal.
Also it could be in effect a number of rounds equal to your cha modifier. So even at low levels you might be able to use if a few times with one use
I've posted a few ideas for the smite evil fixes. Unfortunately, frankly put, even with addtional smites if that was route that we took, the paladin is generally so far behind the curve and ability to buff in the attack and dmg routine, that addtional smites only serve to mask the discrpancy a few times per day - what it needs is a flat-scaled increase to hit evil creatures or they will never be able to hold their own against powerful dragons, demons, devils, and evil clerics and powerful undead etc - that have realy high ACs.
The smites should be in addition to some fix such as this.
Posts in this topic that I've made make more specific explanations.
Robert
|
Are you serious that you have no intention of adding more smites, not even changing the first level one to one plus cha mod, because that is the easiest and most backwards compatable fixes to smites. If you want it to stay only a single attack and only 7 at level 20, then Smite evil will need such a major overhaul to give it parity as a class feature that you have an even greater risk of breaking backwards compatability.
I mean I understand not changing the levels at which he gains extra smites and if you say you aren't going to give 1 + cha mod I'll drop it and start talking about other fixes because I don't want to waste forum space and your time advocating something you're dead set against (except 4 skill point min). but I'd like to know for sure.
And just out of curiosity why have every other class gain abilities that remove the five minute work day and then have the paladin stick to enforcing it by having his only combat ability that as it stands can be used in combat without wasting the round be 1 per day till 4th level?
Are you serious that you have no intention of adding more smites, not even changing the first level one to one plus cha mod, because that is the easiest and most backwards compatable fixes to smites.
I think holding the charge until it hits is easy and backwards compatible. I have no desire to see my 2nd level Paladin PC get 5 (1+Cha) smites per day. It's overpowered at low levels and downplays the value of additional smite attempts later. (not offered to start an argument, that's just where I stand).
It could stand to do some more damage, though.
|
|
In order to tell you whether or not Lay on Hands works as intended you have to let us know what you think lay on hands intention is?
I see lay on hands as weak heal that can be used to recover from a regular blow in combat and aid in healing after battle.
Right now it doesn't really do either of those all that well at the level I am playtesting. The 1 per level means that its not healing even a single weak blows damage from a level appropriate enemy and in my game even with lay on hands after combat it winds up taking us days to recover. Specifically in the play session before last we had three whole days to recover from our injuries (I am the only source of healing in our party of two) when the three days ended and we fought again we were still short HP. Granted we couldn't take the full rest for double hp because we had to be ready for attacks to come at any moment, but still 3 days isn't enough for lay on hands to heal two level 2 warrior types. Mostly because of the HP boost of the pathfinder system.
The easiest fix for lay on hands to me is simple, each use heals level x2 damage. This would mean that a paladin can use it to recover from one enemies attacks usually (disregarding crits or tons of itteratives). But if what I think the intention of lay on hands is isn't what you think it is then I'm wasting my breath and forum space.
|
|
Are you serious that you have no intention of adding more smites, not even changing the first level one to one plus cha mod, because that is the easiest and most backwards compatable fixes to smites.
I think holding the charge until it hits is easy and backwards compatible. I have no desire to see my 2nd level Paladin 5 (1+Cha) smites per day. It's overpowered at low levels and downplays the value of additional smite attempts later. (not offered to start an argument, that's just where I stand).
It could stand to do some more damage, though.
Overpowered? it's a total of 10 damage to evil characters only broken up over 5 rounds. You think that's overpowered?
A barbarians basic rage adds two damage to all attacks in a round. Assuming he isn't dual wielding he can rage and get the exact same amount of extra damage against every enemy, not restricted to only evil. If he is dual wielding he can do way more than you having 5 smites at second level against all enemies.
Now if we significantly increase the amount of damage, then yes 5 smites in a day at level two is overpowered. But as it stands how on earth and the heavenly realms would having 5 be overpowering?
But yes a smite should not be wasted on a miss, that needs to be specifically spelled out that a smite isn't used up on a miss.
And I just passed second level, I can tell you for a fact that if I had five smites a day, I'd still not be doing as much damage as my ally in battle.
this is what I came up with on another thread.
Smite Evil: A Paladin has 1+cha mod smites per day. During a round a paladin may smite gaining his Cha mod as a boost to attack and twice his level as a boost to damage. This bonus applies to every attack made within the round (including attacks of opportunity) and lasts until the start of your next turn. If the paladin attempts to smite a non-evil character the smite immeadiately ends and he looses all uses for the day.
Upping to to 3+ times a day makes it feel commonplace. I think Smiting should be dramatic. Up the damage and drop the fizzle-miss, sounds good to me.
Heck we could even dispense with bonuses and just say a smite automatically deals critical damage on the next successful strike on an evil creature. Lo! The coming army of dwarven paladins that favor greataxes...
|
|
As a micro-response:
Paladin Smites— there is nothing worse than watching your PC blow his only smite on a botched roll. In the general forum, someone suggested that Smite should not be a per-day power at all, but a constant ability of the paladin to wail on evil. It might need to be toned down a bit, but something like "Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec vs. Evil" might not be completely out of line, especially if it's just a scaling class ability.
Personally, I would prefer Paladin losing spellcasting and gaining more Auras and Smite-related powers. And missing a Smite attack wouldn't feel that bad, if they also operated with Smite/Faith/Divine Points.
Knowing that this is hardly going to happen (although it would make the paladin mechanically work just like the barbarian), I would suggest that if you miss with your Smite, you don't lose it (similar to how "reliable" powers work in 4E). Although it's such a small "tweak", I think that would really, *really* make playing a paladin feel better.
|
|
Auras are great but the area needs to be extended, making everyone stand within 10 feet of the paladin is begging to get creamed by area effects. Howsabout within 20' instead of 10'?
Yeah, but I'd rather see it as 10th or 15th level "upgraded" ability ('Enlarged Aura'?), because 20' radius is a lot of space on the miniature map.
Here are a couple of examples of which kind of "new" auras the paladin could have (these are just quick examples, so the descriptions and names suck... ;)
* ANCHORING AURA - Your aura prevents all sorts of dimensional movement and summoning spells from working. No spell that has the keywords Summoning or Calling in their description works within the range of your aura (your allies are affected by it, too). Your aura also prevents anyone using spells such as Dimensional Door or Teleport to move into or out of the area of your aura.
* AURA OF STILLNESS - Your aura prevents normal movement within its range. Every being starting their round within your aura have their movement halved for one round. In addition to this, if they fail a Will save vs. 10 + half your paladin level + your CHA modifier, they're also slowed for one round.
* AURA OF HEALING - At the beginning of your every round, all allies within the range of your Aura heal 1 Hit Point plus 1 Hit Point per five paladin levels you have. You must be at least 6th level to select this aura.
(Or, alternatively, another version...)
* AURA OF HEALING - At the beginning of your every round, all allies within the range of your Aura gain Fast Healing equal to your CHA modifier. You must be at least 12th level to select this aura.
(OR, to make it available at lower levels, maybe the paladin could only affect one ally with this?)
Why not take the good thing from 4e and make Smite Evil once per encounter with additional uses per encounter at each +X levels?
Now the X is the one that needs to discussed about.
I see this as the best solution to this ability that needs not to be available too much in single combat but still available enough times so paladins do not only use it at last combat per day.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, please make the druid's wildshape bonuses to stats Size bonuses, not Enchantment.
|
|
Upping to to 3+ times a day makes it feel commonplace. I think Smiting should be dramatic. Up the damage and drop the fizzle-miss, sounds good to me.
Heck we could even dispense with bonuses and just say a smite automatically deals critical damage on the next successful strike on an evil creature. Lo! The coming army of dwarven paladins that favor greataxes...
You're saying it's dramatic to use an ability once and then have nothing to do but swing your axe. Keep in mind as it stands this is the only combat ability you get till level 4 and even then you don't get offensive abilities, so it's actually the only ability you get till level 5 and you'll have 2 at that point. That means if you're having more than 1 fight in a day you're doing nothing but swinging your weapon. Yes it's great to say I use it on the BBEG, but then what happens when because you only get one you save it for a BBEG who never shows. You think that's dramatic? cause I got to tell you I think it's lame. I think making smite an auto crit isn't the way to go. What happens when you smite and you roll that nat 20, oh well, wish I hadn't wasted that smite.
|
|
Why not take the good thing from 4e and make Smite Evil once per encounter with additional uses per encounter at each +X levels?
Now the X is the one that needs to discussed about.
I see this as the best solution to this ability that needs not to be available too much in single combat but still available enough times so paladins do not only use it at last combat per day.
EDIT: I forgot to mention, please make the druid's wildshape bonuses to stats Size bonuses, not Enchantment.
That's what I did well before 4th edition with my 3.5 game and it worked decently. Still I'm not in favor of having a class with a per encounter power as an abberant.
|
|
Given that we're discussing clerical domains here, is it possible to at least look at moving the domains into the classes chapter. When they were just an ability and a list of spells, it made sense to have them with other spell lists. Now that they are abilities it makes more sense to integrate them with the class, ala the Sorcerer's bloodlines.
|
|
I don't pretend to understand the reasoning against increasing the number of smites. Assuming that the number won't go up then I see it as imperrative that the smite that you get not be wasted. Either an auto hit or holding of the charge becomes neccessary. The damage should also then be beefed up. Even with a successful smite the Paladins damage is not as good as a barbarian or a fighter, let alone the rogue's sneak attack. If it is a one time thing it better be something that makes everyone, dm and players alike take notice.
I know many players who won't ever play a paladin, not because of the rules, but because of the role. I also know players who won't play one because of the rules. The role should be the only reason someone won't play them. Let's find someway to bring the sexy back for the paladin. Please.
I don't pretend to understand the reasoning against increasing the number of smites. Assuming that the number won't go up then I see it as imperrative that the smite that you get not be wasted. Either an auto hit or holding of the charge becomes neccessary. The damage should also then be beefed up. Even with a successful smite the Paladins damage is not as good as a barbarian or a fighter, let alone the rogue's sneak attack. If it is a one time thing it better be something that makes everyone, dm and players alike take notice.
I agree. My thought was that the Paladin should be on par with the Barbarian at 1st level, with obvious cultural differences, he currently is not.
Barbarian:- Rage (1000x better than Smite)
- Fast Movement (2x better than the DASH Feat)
- d12 Hitdie (Best Hitdie possible)
- 4+INT Skills (Below average, but decent)
Paladin:
- Aura of Good (Does this even rate as an ability? I glow good!)
- Detect Evil (Improved to a Move Action, Supernatural hopefully, not spell-like ability, casting is generally seen as a hostile act. Asking someone to hold still while you Detect Evil on them isn't generally polite social commentary either.)
- Smite Evil (Not a Rage equivalent. 'Nuff said.)
- d10 Hitdie (Above average, a d12 Hitdie would be resonable.)
- 2+INT skills (Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Religion & Nobility), Ride... 2+INT seems low for someone who is 'educated nobility'. Other than the Barbarian I found these two to be the most similar of the 'starting' classes... Marshal 4+INT or Samurai 2+INT, the skills could really swing either way. All the prestige classes with any reference to Knight or Cavalier are all 2+INT.)
I would honestly like to see a Smite Pool and Smite Powers, similar in fashion to how Pathfinder has handled Rage.
Excluding 'Aura of Good' in all it's wonderful glory... the lists speak for themselves. The Barbarian is blowing the Paladin out of the water!
|
The main trouble I see with the Domain abilities are the Evil ones are just so much cooler than the good ones. As it stands, I want to play an evil cleric, but I really am not all that interested in the good ones.
Evil: makes a target count as if they where good is way better than the Touch of Good, in my opinion, at least for direct combat application. Don't get me wrong, I can see some nice uses for Touch of Good, but I can also see a player going around and "touching" every laborer in town to get masterwork everything just for the heck of it. Besides, what about this ability (aside from the name), says Good?
Additionally, if you add to all the Alignment Domains that Alignment tag, (counted as good/Evil/etc. . .) it keeps Neutral characters from being the best mechanical choice, because yes, they can still be effected just as hard by any of the alignment spells. It may be worth putting in, either way, that it only treats the target as whatever alignment FOR THE CLERIC'S Spells, or I can see it being extremely abussed by just tanking that target with unholy swords and spells.
Earth: I completely agree. Isn't acid the anti-earth damage anyway? I'd go with maybe a directed shock wave. You stomp the ground and deal the damage to a target (with a touch attack), and they Refl or fall prone. Something like that.
Law: Maybe change it from treat any d20 roll as a Nat 11, to change any Nat 1 as an 11? I'm not really that impressed with the ability at all. Purhaps Touched Target is treated as Chaotic (as Evil Domain), and is treated as Exhausted for 1 - 3 rounds (as if carrying the weight of the world on their backs, or something).
Magic: maybe. It also needs to explain what happens if someone attempts to steal the weapon and a few other factors, (can it make unarmed attacks, be attacked itself, can it exert presure or do anything besides draw and attack with a weapon like pull a lever, steal a potion from the other side of the room, move any squares beyond the caster? Can it pick up the keys to our prison cell just out of reach and bring them to you? I'm not trying to be a smart a**, and I see the Mage Hand Reference, but these things will come up I think. Does the 5lbs limit stand, because many weapons are heavier. If not, can you pick upa larger weapon you are proficient with for the attack?
Protection: Make it something besides a Resistance Bonus. 3.5 was terrible about this. Also, maybe make it a Full round action to Transfere it to someone else, just to tone it down a bit. Maybe.
Repose: Maybe make it a "they fall asleep, hit the ground and wake up", so essentially they just got tripped. Might be worth it to just not allow a Coup de gras with this ability. Now that dragon falling from the sky, . . .
Rune: Can a square hold more than one rune? I'd say not from the same caster, but ok for different casters. Can you have more than one Rune at a time? I think it should also last a bit longer, maybe a minute per 5 or 10 Levels. Additionally, maybe allow it to act like a minor potion, allowing you to give other people temporary Runes of Orisons that last up to an hour or something.
Strength: I am not sure what the correct way to use this power is (reroll), but no matter what it is overpowered. I would say make it exactly like the Protection Domain, but make it Str rather than saves (+1 - +5) until your nect d20 roll with it. Please, not an enhancement bonus though.
Sun: I don't like it. It doesn't heal, so it's not positive energy, (or rather why is it?) It barely deals more than say the Fire Domain, but only against undead, so why not just go with Fire which you can do at a distance. The only exception may be if this ability was intended as a Smite Attack with an actual attack, essentially adding the d8+ to the other damage. I doubt it, and the Touch seems to say no. As a fix, either change it to a Blinding/Dazzling touch, or maybe your attacks deal +1 damage to Undead/5 Levels.
Travel: I'd disallow teleporting anyone else, and probably make it either 5ft / level or a Standard Action. Actually what might be better is 20ft, than +5 ft per 4 levels.
Trickery: Maybe it should only last a number or rounds equal to your Wis.
War: I really don't like this. First, no enhancment bonus or it does not stack with a magical weapon (not a problem with levels 1-3 or so, but it becomes one fast), so what is the point. It doesn't really say war to me either. Law and Destruction, perhaps. Glory, maybe. A fix might just be to have it be a personal Smite attack, add Cha (or Wis) to attck, and level to damage, but I'd probably go 1/Encounter.
Weather: maybe make it d4 of bludgeoning lethal damage?
|
|
Are there any more deities? Where will we be seeing a little more in depth material about them? In particular, which churchs are in conflict, (if any), what churchs of this or that deity practice, and non generic concepts about life in general?
I think that Sarenrae should lose the scimitar for either a longsword or Flail. Don't know why, just scimitar doesn't seem right. Maybe its because I see her as the most promonent "common folk" deity, and scimitar doesn't really say sun, glory, redemption, or honesty, while a flail is a symbolic reference and a longsword is a common weapon, as well.
Maybe think about giving Clerics a choice of 1 out of 2 or 3 favored weapons for some variaty?
|
|
What do you think about giving Clerics like a weak verison of Favored Enemy. Perhaps +1 to attack rolls and Spell Resistance rolls against Undead, Elementals, and Specific alignments of outsiders. At maybe 6th level it is +1, to one of those.
At 9th, you can either get a +2 in the first, or +1 in a new choice. At 12th, 15th, and 18th, you can either gain a new one, or increase an existing one, max +3, but restricted against outsiders of your own alignment types.