We went with the UA Barbarian Totem variant class abilities and subbed them right in for rage points.
Which closely resembled what we got coming from up top there. =P
We're still striking out the "supernatural" rage powers because they seem silly.
"Follow Thor! He can see in the dark."
"Really? How? He's human, right?"
"Yeah, but he can see in infrared as a rage ability."
"Why is he so angry that he is using rage?"
"He hates the dark"Which also leads to if the barbarian already had lowlight as a racial they wouldnt need to pick it as a rage power for reasons of getting darkvision later.
#1 - Using rage to get low light vision out of combat is going to burn rage fast
#2 - Night Vision does not require the low light rage power for races with low light vision#3 - I'm not a big fan of su powers in barbarians either but I also see the appeal and if one of my players wants one I would let him take it.
There are over 20 rage powers. Even adding just four words per power leads to 80-90 extra words, where that one sentence only adds 16 (and probably takes up less space too).
There are over 20 rage powers. Even adding just four words per power leads to 80-90 extra words, where that one sentence only adds 16 (and probably takes up less space too).
The Powers need to be organized by "Level", i.e. Barbarian Level Requirement. If they have the same "Level", but are dependent on having other Rage Powers (Low Light->Nightvision->?), those Powers should be grouped together. WITHIN such a rational, easy-to-look-up structure, they can be listed Alphabetically, of course.
They all need "core info" (Activation Action Type, Duration/Cool-down, Requirements) listed in the same consistent format, probably a differently colored one-line block directly under each title... (this is EASIER to look-up if NOT in sentence format)...
AND/OR a mini-table listing just the names, requirements, activation type, & duration/cool-down. Reading thru the entire description of every power in order to get this basic info is completely un-wieldy.
Like-wise, other topics, like Spells, Diseases/Curses, & Poisons, need to be listed by "Level" FIRST, and Alphabetically SECOND. An Alphabetical INDEX at the end of the book giving page numbers for each word/topic is the best way to provide easy Alphabetical look-up, the structure of powers should not be ignored in favor of Alphabetical listings.
Well, I will play test this system for rage as extensively as my schedule permits, but my first impression is that it is a Lowest Common Denominator style compromise that removes some of the complexity but sacrifices more in terms of individual choice and uniqueness.
Some are one per round - but only one of them. You have to choose which it will be.
It's the same in the original version.
Some are one per minute, so you have to choose in vs. the alternatives and also vs. use it now or later.
Just 3 out of 21 are once per minute and 1 is once per day.
The role-playing of resource management, whether it be rounds of rage or which powers you use or when, doesn't seem to me to be that different whether your accounting is based on points, rounds, of duration, or uses of powers.
If activating a power has an additional cost, whether to activate it or not is a choice that needs thoughtful consideration, and a choice implies roleplaying. Dealing a rage point consuming powerful blow in a crucial moment of the battle is different than dealing costless powerful blows during the whole rage.
Clear Mind (Su):
I like the ability, but I’m not sure of the name; “clear mind” brings to mind an image of a serene barbarian. I’m thinking tenacious mind or something similar.
I agree. How about Hellbent?
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for 1 round. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire.Do they get any resistance to the same energy? What about 1d4 damage and resistance 5 to the same energy type?
I thought the idea of barbarian rage was to increase attack and hit points while reducing defense. I was thinking more the opposite of resistance: the energy could actually damage the barbarian as well. There's potential comedy in the idea of a character who gets so angry she literally catches on fire...
Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for one round.Rolling Dodge (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round.
I don’t like these two. The barbarian takes an AC penalty because they’re swinging wildly to do more damage. It doesn’t make thematic sense to me that they can somehow increase their AC while raging.
Totally agree.
Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe.Intimidate checks inevitably lead to looking up rules because they aren’t used much. What about a will save DC 10 + ½ barbarian level + Con modifier instead?
I actually like the way this power makes use of a class skill. It also provides an in-game example that might get other players to think about using Intimidate as a combat option. It helps teach the game by motivating one player (in this case, the barbarian) to better understand a rule.
That said, a little clarification might help. Should I assume it applies only to demoralizing an opponent, which is normally a standard action? Does this power allow the barbarian to demoralize as a free action?
Also, I agree that a saving throw for the victim makes more sense than a difficulty check for the barbarian, since the latter ignores the Fearless trait of halflings and other types of fear resistance, and seems more 4e than 3e.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gains low-light vision while raging.Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet for 1 round.
Not sure about these three. It seems too much like a task that requires concentration to use, which barbarians can’t do in a rage.
Does anyone have an example like Egil's Saga to help someone appreciate Moment of Clarity? I'm having trouble seeing how this power enriches the idea of barbarian rage. I liked someone's suggestion about combining low-light and night vision.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make a free attack, at her highest attack bonus, against a foe that moves adjacent to the barbarian. Using this power is an immediate action that counts as an attack of opportunity.I can see this one getting complicated in a fight. Maybe it could just be an additional attack of opportunity?
I prefer that it consume an AoO, as first stated, but in a situation that does not normally allow an AoO. The proposed simplification diminishes the value of the Combat Reflexes feat. Clarification would also help. Does a 5-foot step count as moving adjacent to the barbarian?
What if the power applied to any character flanking the barbarian?
Definitely an improvement over the Beta rules. All the flexibility without the number fuss.
Makes it far, far easier for me, as a DM, to run barbarians as NPCs.
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While this isnt a bad system so far, I do like the Rage Points system better. I still dont agree that as a DM it makes for more work. And i think the keeping track of "can be used Once per minute/Once per round/etc" is even more book keeping than the original.
I respect people's desires to keep the barbarian "simple" I dont think this compromise is bad. Its a fairly balanced compromise imo. I just like the original Rage Points system better.
Just my 2cp.
It's not bad, but I still think the Rage Points system is more flexible and more enjoyable. I'll continue to use that, no matter what comes out in the "official" final version.
I used this a bit in a small playstest..It's ok but a far cry from the flexibility and enjoyment of the last system. It seems a bit more straight jacketed then the last system and while usable a step backward if you ask me.
Any chance of getting a response from Jason about all of this?
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Tried it last night with my group. As a DM, I used an encounter of orcs with 4 level of barbarian. Bookkeeping was a breeze!
My players (who HATED the Rage Point system) liked it well enough to give it a try. While it still needs some work, I think this is on the right track. Even a newbie can play Rage powers with little math work.
I personally think that this is just a streamlining of the "X/day" and "rounds per X/day" system, taking the middle man (X/day) out of the picture. And it still allows micro-rages!
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My group played last night (Age of Worms, level 15). My brother was NPCing the Barbarian shifter for the group. He used this system and the new rage powers (I let him select the ones he wanted for the game).
He only plays about every six months since he lives so far from us, and he used the barabarian to great effectiveness last night.
Some AoW spoliers below in fight description
The powers balanced nicely at that level. He used the rerolling will save to fight off a confusion he had failed (which was good as it took out two other fighters and meant the party had a meat shield for long enough to prevent a total wipe while the wizard tried to dispell this effect).
As a shifter he already has a bite attack so didn't use this one, but the did try out the sudden strike ability and it worked nicely as well (extra attacks were crucial thanks to some very tough DR in the critters).
Overall - A level 15 character with plenty of options that even a relative novice can play. Good job as far as our group were concerned.
On a separate note, the parties cleric got Mazed in round one and was stuck there for the entire fight (had to roll a 19 or 20 to escape). This entire battle was fought and won without a cleric. My fighter types are tough as nails when fully buffed. It was a very close thing though :)
I like it, this is pretty close to what I was already using as a houserule in a non-RAW game I'm running.
No one in my other RAW/"by the book"/playtest group is running a barbarian right now, but I'll throw a few NPCs in against them and see how it runs.
Here's the houseruled up version of Pathfinder's Barbarian I'm using in the non-playtest game, for comparison. (And just in case anyone is curious)
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Hit Die: d10.
The barbarian’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Profession (Wis), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
All of the following are barbarian class features.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s base land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load.
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. Entering a rage is a free action.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Die, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points.
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (with the exception of Intimidate) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for one round per round they spent raging (unless she is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies). A barbarian cannot normally enter a rage while fatigued or exhausted.
Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, she learns to harness her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains one rage power. She gains an additional rage power at 4th level and every two levels thereafter. Unless otherwise noted, rage powers are swift actions that may only be used while raging. (A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but is a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.)
Animal Fury (Ex): The barbarian may make a bite or slam attack at her highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, it deals 1d6 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d4 points of damage if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can use this power while grappled or pinned. If the attack hits, any grapple checks made against the target this round are at a +2 bonus. This additional attack does not stack with haste or other similar effects.
Improved Damage Reduction (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains damage reduction 2/—. This damage reduction stacks with that granted by the barbarian class feature.
Intimidating Presence (Ex): For one round, each time the barbarian attacks, she can make an Intimidate check against her target as a free action. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes her opponent, the foe is shaken for 1 round, and an additional round for every 5 points by which she exceeds the DC.
Guarded Stance (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th, etc.)
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restrictions on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day.
Powerful Blow (Ex): For one round, the barbarian adds a +2 morale bonus to damage rolls. This bonus increases by +2 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. (+4 at 4th level, +6 at 8th, etc.)
Renewed Vigor (Ex): The barbarian heals 1 point of damage per barbarian level, and gains fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to her Con modifier. This fast healing does not stack with other fast healing effects.
Savage Accuracy (Ex): For one round, the barbarian adds a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th, etc.)
Sharpened Senses (Ex): For one round, the barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gain Low Light Vision, Scent, and a +2 on all Perception checks. If the barbarian already has Low Light Vision, this ability grants Darkvision instead.
Strength Surge (Ex): For one round, the barbarian adds +1 morale bonus to Strength checks and combat maneuver checks, and to her combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her.. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. (+2 at 4th level, +3 at 8th, etc.)
Swift (Ex): The barbarian gains a 10-foot enhancement bonus to her speed. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so, is never considered flat footed, and takes no penalty if struck by an invisible attacker. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Damage Reduction (Ex): At 3rd level, a barbarian gains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time she is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 7th level, and every four barbarian levels thereafter (11th, 15th, and 19th level), this damage reduction increases by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Rugged (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a bonus of 2 hp per level of barbarian.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian has greatly heightened senses and focus, and cannot be flanked.
Unrelenting Rage (Ex): At 9th level, a barbarian may call upon hidden reserves to enter a rage even while fatigued. Doing so is extremely draining however, and after her rage ends the barbarian becomes exhausted for one minute per round they spent raging.
Greater Powers: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a barbarian can choose one of the following greater powers in place of a rage power.
Elemental Resistance (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains energy resistance 10 against either acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.
Intractable (Ex): If a barbarian with intractable is affected by an enchantment spell or effect while raging and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw. This power is always active while the barbarian is raging.
Frightful Presence (Ex): When the barbarian enters a rage, opponents within 30 ft. must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarians level + her Cha modifier). Those that fail become frightened for 1d4+1 rounds. An opponent that is already shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead. An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to the barbarian’s frightful presence for 24 hours. Frightful presence is only active at the moment the barbarian enters her rage, foes that enter her presence later are unaffected. A barbarian must have the intimidating presence rage power before choosing frightful presence.
Greater Damage Reduction (Ex): The damage reduction granted by the improved damage reduction rage power increases by 2, to 4/—. This damage reduction stacks with that granted by the barbarian class feature. A barbarian must have the improved damage reduction rage power before choosing greater damage reduction.
Knockback (Ex): Once per round while raging, the barbarian can make a bull rush attempt, as a free action, against any target hit in melee. The barbarian does not need to move back with the target if successful. A barbarian must have the strength surge rage power before choosing knockback. Activating this power is a free action.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): As part of a full attack action, the barbarian may make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus. This additional attack does not stack with haste or other similar effects. A barbarian must have the animal fury rage power before choosing unexpected strike.
Whirling Frenzy (Ex): While raging, the barbarian adds a +2 morale bonus to dexterity checks and reflex saves, and anyone attacking her is considered hampered, taking a -2 penalty to their attack roll. A barbarian must have the guarded stance rage power before choosing whirling frenzy. This power is always active while the barbarian is raging.
Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, when a barbarian rages, the bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3. The -2 penalty to AC is unchanged.
Indomitable Will (Ex): While in rage, a barbarian of 13th level or higher gains a +3 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.
Tireless Rage (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage. She still becomes exhausted after using unrelenting rage, however.
Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian rages, the bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8. The -2 penalty to AC is unchanged.
Huge, huge improvement. This guy feels much more like how a Barbarian should feel. However, I really think it's a bad idea to give the core Barbarian supernatural abilities, especially since only Elemental Rage and probably (but not definitely) Renewed Vigor really need to be Supernatural.
In any case, I'm starting a campaign with a Barbarian character tomorrow, so I'll see if the player wants to swap out systems really quick.
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put me down in the "Yay!" column. This is a nice refinement of the rage pool system. I intend to use it even if it doesn't make it into the final document.
We tested it in one session so far, and it provided a very simple, organic play experience. Even as a new system, it was easy for the player to check his options, decide on an action, and track his remaining rounds of rage/day.
Tried out the new system, worked really well. The barbarian's player was a little saddened that he couldn't get +30 feet to his speed, but he did like that entering Rage was much simpler and overall much preferred the switch.
Jason, would you say this system listed to be considered play-testable?
Need dev feedback niao.
Remember not everyone makes barbarians the same way, and there are several cultures (think native american) where supernatural rage powers actually make sense.
Thank you for pointing this out. I had really enjoyed the flavor inherent in the Shoanti in the Golarion setting and felt the Rage system as presented in Beta went hand in hand with the concept of these diverse and unique Barbarian people.
That being said, I worked a little with Rage as proposed by Jason in this thread last Monday and it was much easier to handle larger encounters with the new system.
All in all about 14 of the 17 or so creatures in the lair I designed had Barbarian levels, and the accounting was Cakey Pie. I mostly did not use rage powers at all, opting for Vanilla Rage in every round of rage except a handful. The powers, frankly do not seem to be all that impactful. Their situational nature makes them slightly more useful to players, which is fine. From a DM perspective, the powers add little to your average combat or set-piece encounter.
From a player's perspective, however, it seems like the new system takes away enough of the uniqueness and flexibility that, at least for this player, I will be switching the Barbarian I play in my friend's campaign to a Ranger with a similar function in the party. The build I had created (admittedly sub-optimal but fun fun fun) no longer works as intended (it was based on mobility and swiftness) and just doesn't make as much sense.
CAVEAT: This is based on very limited play testing, so I am prepared to review my decision based on further data.
Is there any option for a feat that could give you bonus rage powers or a "lingering rage"?
As a (somewhat related) side bar, how would Barbarian Chew (Pathfinder Player's Guide- Equipment Section) be changed, if at all, under the new rage system?
Elemental Rage - doesn't really feel right. I still don't see how your anger is going to turn your sword into a Flametounge. No other complaints thus far, though.
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day are renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, she learns to harness her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains one rage power. She gains an additional rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian can use her rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers are always active. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. A barbarian can use the same power more than once during an individual rage. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions that must be performed on the barbarian’s turn.
Animal Fury (Ex): The barbarian may make a bite attack using her full base attack bonus plus her Strength modifier. If the bite hits, it deals 1d6 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d4 points of damage if Small) plus one half the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can use this power while grappled. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Clear Mind (Su): A barbarian may reroll a failed Will save. This power is used as an immediate action after the save is failed. The barbarian must take the second result, even if it is worse. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex): The barbarian’s damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for 1 round. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. This energy damage does not stack with energy damage dealt by special weapon abilities if it is of the same type. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
Guarded Stance (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against melee attacks for one round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
Intimidating Glare (Ex): The barbarian can make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes her opponent, the foe is shaken for 1d4 rounds +1 round for 5 points she exceeds the DC.
Knockback (Ex): The barbarian can make one free bull rush attempt against one target hit in melee this round. The barbarian does not need to move back with the target if successful. This power is used as an immediate action after the attack roll is made.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gains low-light vision while raging.
Mighty Swing (Ex): The barbarian automatically confirms a critical hit. This power is used as an immediate action once a critical threat has been determined. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per minute.
Night Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses grow incredibly sharp while raging and she gains darkvision 60 feet for 1 round. A barbarian must have low-light vision as a rage power or a racial trait to select this rage power.
Powerful Blow (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 bonus to a single damage roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
Quick Reflexes (Ex): The barbarian can make an additional attack of opportunity above the normal limit of one per round. This power is used as an immediate action when an opponent takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier. For every four levels the barbarian has attained above 4th, this amount of damage healed increases by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 at 20th level. A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per day.
Rolling Dodge (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
Roused Anger (Ex): The barbarian may enter a rage even if fatigued. Once this rage ends, the barbarian is exhausted for a number of minutes equal to the number of rounds spent raging.
Strength Surge (Ex): The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to her combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her. This power is used as an immediate action. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute.
Surprise Accuracy (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 morale bonus on one attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
Swift Foot (Ex): The barbarian gains a 5-foot enhancement bonus to her speed. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack.
Terrifying Howl (Su): The barbarian unleashes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All shaken enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not) it is immune to this power for 24 hours. A barbarian must have the intimidating glare rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make a free attack, at her highest attack bonus, against a foe that moves adjacent to the barbarian. Using this power is an immediate action that counts as an attack of opportunity. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier. For every four levels the barbarian has attained above 4th, this amount of damage healed increases by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 at 20th level. A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power. This power can only be used once per day.
So at 4th level, he can heal himself for an average of 9 points of damage, once a day... and he probably has at least 40 HP. At 8th level it's an average of 13 points... and he has at least 80 HP.
At once a day, I would hardly consider this worth taking.
Perhaps if it were bumped to 1 use per 2 levels each day it would be worthwhile. Remember, he still has to burn rage time to use it, so it's not totally free.
Brodiggan, except for the 'Rugged'-ability (I just don't like the name and the benefit), I think your version of the barbarian class seems very nice! Good work! :)
Thanks! Rugged was really just meant to make up for dropping them down to a d10 to standardize hd, and to give them a bit of a boost in hp for games where we use average HD instead of rolling. Easy enough to just toss rugged and add d12 hd back. (And I'd be a bit of a hypocrite if I didn't find the idea of houseruling houserules amusing. Viva la open source gaming!)
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
While your idea is interesting it complicates things, simply being fatigued is much simpler. On the fluff problem, while maybe a normal person might be exhausted, a person trained and experienced with raging might have built up a resistance or toughness to to the ill-effects of the rage ability as part of her early life.
Elemental Rage (Su): All of the barbarian’s attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of energy damage for 1 round. The energy type must be acid, cold, electricity, or fire. This energy damage does not stack with energy damage dealt by special weapon abilities if it is of the same type. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
It makes more sense if you take two things into consideration.
1. They seem to be going into a more mystical or druid like sense of power for the barbarian, the bit attack, low light vision, and darkvision. This is a link to their elemental form druids can take. So having a more supernatural ability in origin they thought it would be a good idea to give two weapon fighter types a break, however in-adequent it turns out to be. This is also made equally useless as you have to wait till you get to level 12 to make it remotely worth while.This was made an immidiate action as it was meant to be used in conjunction with other powers earlier in the round. However making it a swift action would be nice as it would make using Strength Surge in conjunction possible, so I after thought I would be for this as well.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): The barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gains low-light vision while raging.
Agreed, but you must not forget humans and half elves. It should still be rolled into Night Vision though.
Mighty Swing (Ex): The barbarian automatically confirms a critical hit. This power is used as an immediate action once a critical threat has been determined. A barbarian must be at least 12th level before selecting this power.
Why? It is meant to be an immediate action as you can use it in conjunction with other abilities, but leaves you open the next round for the ones that use a swift action to keep going.
Moment of Clarity (Ex): The barbarian does not gain any benefits or take any of the penalties from rage for 1 round. This includes the penalty to Armor Class and the restriction on what actions can be performed. This round still counts against her total number of rounds of rage per day. This power can only be used once per minute.
It is a rather specialized ability, I think it needs some, however small, additional bonus.
Powerful Blow (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 bonus to a single damage roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
I think this is worse than a "trap" feat such as weapon focus and specialization. While the AC equivolent applies to all attacks at you for the round, this is only to 1 attack. To help out two weapon fighting more it should be made to work with all attacks, made to be +1 per 5 or 4 levels, and maybe even bumped up to +2, and increase at +2.
Quick Reflexes (Ex): The barbarian can make an additional attack of opportunity above the normal limit of one per round. This power is used as an immediate action when an opponent takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
I see no problem with the immediate action problem, but the feat seems out of place, so yeah I should probably be removed.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a standard action, the barbarian heals 1d8 points of damage + her Constitution modifier. For every four levels the barbarian has attained above 4th, this amount of damage healed increases by 1d8, to a maximum of 5d8 at 20th level. A barbarian must be at least 4th level before selecting this power.
I think this is a good idea.
Rolling Dodge (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 dodge bonus to her Armor Class against ranged attacks for 1 round. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained.
Agreed
Strength Surge (Ex): The barbarian adds her barbarian level on one Strength check or combat maneuver check, or to her combat maneuver bonus when an opponent attempts a maneuver against her. This power is used as an immediate action. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute.
I agree on the complexity, but immediate actions again, your going over kill as this power was meant to stack with others in the round.
Surprise Accuracy (Ex): The barbarian gains a +1 morale bonus on one attack roll. This bonus increases by +1 for every 6 levels the barbarian has attained. This power is used as a swift action before the roll to hit is made.
Agreed
Swift Foot (Ex): The barbarian gains a 5-foot enhancement bonus to her speed. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack.
I fully agree.
Terrifying Howl (Su): The barbarian unleashes a terrifying howl as a standard action. All shaken enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) or be panicked for 1d4+1 rounds. Once an enemy has made a save versus terrifying howl (successful or not) it is immune to this power for 24 hours. A barbarian must have the intimidating glare rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
I have to disagree, intimidate is not as useful a tactic and needs a boost to be worth putting skill ranks into. If anything, intimidating glare needs a boost.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): The barbarian can make a free attack, at her highest attack bonus, against a foe that moves adjacent to the barbarian. Using this power is an immediate action that counts as an attack of opportunity. Once used, this power cannot be used again for 1 minute. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power.
I don't see a problem with the power itself, but its wording could be a bit better though.
Sir Ineptus (and others, as necessary):
An interesting point as to some of the abilities counting as an immediate action, which - as I understand them - count as your swift action on the following round. When the ability is clearly a "follow-up" one as opposed to a "stand alone", then I could see the rationale for it being an immediate action.
As a general rule of thumb, I do not agree in principle that immediate actions should ever be other than personal in nature, since they are basically "interrupts" in such a fashion. Far too many 3.5 immediate actions are exactly that - and were overpowered to go with it.
Thusfar, most of the immediate action abilities - especially within the Barbarian's Rage Powers framework - are not too too much. I highly recommend that the wording of immediate actions be clarified so as to make it inarguably clear that it does count as the character's swift action for the following round .
i.e.: If Bubba the Barbarian burns a swift action this round to use Rage Power 1, then in doing so this round fires off an immediate action Rage Power 2, Bubba is SOL until his THIRD round of that encounter.
Of course, so far when Bubba the Barbarian does his thing in this fashion as I've seen, Round Three doesn't frickin' matter...
Posting a PDF with the Alternate rage system rolled into the standard barbarian description, for those that want clean printable copy.
The PDF can be found here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152814649/Barbarian.pdf.html)
Turin, I believe your understanding of Immediate Actions is identical to how they're described in the Beta (and 3.5),
so I don't really know how they could be better described than they currently are.
And in your example, yes, as I take it, in Round 2 the Barbarian could not take ANY Swift Action (Rage Power OR OTHERWISE), though they COULD take another Immediate Action, which of course prevents any Swift Actions in Round 3...
Posting a PDF with the Alternate rage system rolled into the standard barbarian description, for those that want clean printable copy.
The PDF can be found here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152814649/Barbarian.pdf.html)
Hi nice work. I am gonna host this on my yahoo group. I will take them down at your say so
Hi nice work. I am gonna host this on my yahoo group. I will take them down at your say soPosting a PDF with the Alternate rage system rolled into the standard barbarian description, for those that want clean printable copy.
The PDF can be found here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/152814649/Barbarian.pdf.html)
Feel free, I'm making these with the intent of sharing them, so I have no objection. I've also posted a couple others in the Paladin and Animal Companion design focus threads.
Once I get the layout ironed out exactly how I want it, I'll probably post a few updated versions of everything. So my only request would be, that you do your best to replace the old with the new once I get them together.
Turin, I believe your understanding of Immediate Actions is identical to how they're described in the Beta (and 3.5),
so I don't really know how they could be better described than they currently are.And in your example, yes, as I take it, in Round 2 the Barbarian could not take ANY Swift Action (Rage Power OR OTHERWISE), though they COULD take another Immediate Action, which of course prevents any Swift Actions in Round 3...
Thank you Quandry. My way of looking at immediate actions is that it irks me - if nothing else as just one of my many quirks - that "interrupts" are in any way, shape or form an element of game play. They're tolerable when they are personal and either curative or defensive, in my opinion. And I blunty despise the concept of "borrowing now to pay you back on Tuesday" that immediate actions can be used to do.
And it is far worse (especially for Extraordinary abilities!) when such abilities are accessible - and are for all practical purposes routinely useable - before a Cleric, Druid or Wizard can hope to match that with anything other than Feather Fall can emulate via Quickened Spell tacked onto a simple 1st level spell.
Fixed that for you. Remember not everyone makes barbarians the same way, and there are several cultures (think native american) where supernatural rage powers actually make sense.
True, but in some cultures semi-magical fighters and rogues exist as well, but they aren't getting elemental powers. If you want a barberian who has some magical powers too, thats what multi-classing is for.
True, but in some cultures semi-magical fighters and rogues exist as well, but they aren't getting elemental powers. If you want a barberian who has some magical powers too, thats what multi-classing is for.
Agreed. I'd love to see variant classes for other cultural settings, but for the core book I'd really prefer they have the same roles/feel as the regular core classes. (Some classes with serious improvements, but still the same role.) EDIT: (Sorry lastknight, I gotta go with the haters on this one.)
Agreed. I'd love to see variant classes for other cultural settings, but for the core book I'd really prefer they have the same roles/feel as the regular core classes. (Some classes with serious improvements, but still the same role.) EDIT: (Sorry lastknight, I gotta go with the haters on this one.)
So the fact that it's an option, and not a requirement, means it can't be core? I fail to see how that recurring argument makes any sense, tbqh.
If you don't feel it fits your type of barbarian, just don't take it. Bam, easy-peasy.
Much easier than making it something you have to opt in, imho.
Agreed. I'd love to see variant classes for other cultural settings, but for the core book I'd really prefer they have the same roles/feel as the regular core classes. (Some classes with serious improvements, but still the same role.) EDIT: (Sorry lastknight, I gotta go with the haters on this one.)So the fact that it's an option, and not a requirement, means it can't be core? I fail to see how that recurring argument makes any sense, tbqh.
If you don't feel it fits your type of barbarian, just don't take it. Bam, easy-peasy.
Much easier than making it something you have to opt in, imho.
It's not a simple case of "Just don't take it", the fact that it's core makes it difficult to remove at all. I've seen plenty of DM's ban non-core classes such as psionics, or non-core feats or abilities because they're overpowered/underpowered etc. I've never seen anyone, and I mean ANYONE (I've played with two groups RL, one of which featured some anal players for a short while, and 4 PBP games) ever ban anything core. Despite seeing one or two players complaing about certain core classes, certain core feats or races etc I've never seen them banned.
The fact that it's core means that, as a DM, it becomes harder to have a setting where the barbarians don't have access to semi-magical powers. If a player in my campaign took such a power and I said "Sorry, but I don't think that power fits the barbarians in this setting" I can see an arguement starting.
Theres also the fact that it's just plain inconsistant. Yes, various mythologies RL you can find semi-magical barbarians. But other classes don't have these "options" either. What about rogues? Ninja's from Asia are often associated in modern socitety with magical abilites (Anyone ever watch Naruto? I swear those "ninja's" come across more as mages to me) yet why is it the classes that fit the ninja best in core (The rogue and possibly the monk) don't get access to magical abilities asscoaited with those myths? I don't recall seeing a single monk or rogue ability that lets them conjure a cloud of smoke while they vanish, I've never seen any ability for the monk or rogue which allows them to create illusionary clones of themselves either. Put simply, they don't, and it's really unfair to provide various ways to play one class whilst the others are still lacking. Now, if magical powers were provided for all core classes (such as magical attacks for the fighter, invisibility or charm-esc powers for the rogue etc) then I might be more for these barbarian powers too. But they don't, it's providing "options" for one class over the others.
And lasty, it's just not needed. There isn't exactly a shortage of barbarian powers so this one isn't needed to fill up numbers. There are still plenty of other ways to get magical abilities as well, in fact, the last character I played was a human fighter and using only feats I was able to make a character who could run up walls, hit on touch armour class, spontainously gain blindsense, even stabilize using a skill check rather than a percentile dice. If the ability to make a magical warrior exists outwith the class features, why the insistance on adding these abilities?
Uhhh... sorry, but Rogues now have the OPTION to gain Minor Magic and Major Magic.
I don't see your argument. I've played games where it was set in "Bronze Age" and so the weapons/armor availability was vastly different.
Likewise, a "Low Magic" Setting, where Magic functioned completely differently (the fastest spell was Full-Round Casting), and the basic abilities of Classes like Wizard and Cleric were totally altered. (Those are "Core", BTW)
Likewise, I don't see a problem with a DM just banning certain CORE Classes,
if a certain campaign feel is aimed for.
I don't see how Elemental Fury is fundamentally different than any of those examples.
/shrug
are we still hateing on the mystic rage powers? Sure they don't fit every barbarian culture but they do fit a few. I like em but I would say no to some tribes using them. The core rules are a tool box. I disallow many things core says you should be able to do. As a GM it is your sandbox, I dont care if it came from a book or your own head. Why should it be taken out solely because some GM'S can't grow a pair and simply tell thee player,s "sorry guys that power does not match the tribes background or the world therm so I have disallowed it at this time."
There are times when them powers really fit a culture. Also the core powers are guide lines for GM'S to use to make there own powers. The mystic ones should stay because it gives GM'S a measuring stick for such powers.
Remember the PFRPG is is toolbox for many worlds.
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Any player in my game who plays bard has to accept that there is no light armor with no penalty, rather that they get a bonus feat limited to skill boosters or until pathfinder came out, they could choose armored caster, a feat that reduced ASF by 10%.
Also if they played a warmage they were forced to memorize their spells for the day (intelligence based caster=memorize, charisma=spontaneous) same with any class that casted from int.
Clerics could only wear light armor (so that paladins didn't get shafted so badly)
Paladins could detect evil always and had to take a move action to get a detect = to studying for three rounds.
And Natural Spell was banned.
Oh wait, my annecdotal evidence completely runs counter to yours.
And you know what, there was no argument, I told the players what the deal was before they made characters, and not a single person said the blue lines. If you don't want it in your game, tell the player before he makes his character that he can't have it. end of story, stop trying to remove it from those of us who want it...
And rogues have spells with their rogue tricks now, and monks have ki points so yes, they do get their mystical powers now, go run along to those threads and argue that they need to be taken away...
Rogues now have the OPTION to gain Minor Magic and Major Magic.
I don't see your argument. I've played games where it was set in "Bronze Age" and so the weapons/armor availability was vastly different.
Likewise, a "Low Magic" Setting, where Magic functioned completely differently (the fastest spell was Full-Round Casting), and the basic abilities of Classes like Wizard and Cleric were totally altered. (Those are "Core", BTW)Likewise, I don't see a problem with a DM just banning certain CORE Classes, if a certain campaign feel is aimed for.
I don't see how Elemental Fury is fundamentally different than any of those examples.
Rogues already had access to a similar ability in 3.5 via Use Magic Device. Yeah, it's not quite the same as the Minor Magic and Major Magic rogue trick, but it occupied the same in game role, namely, it let a rogue pull off minor caster-ish abilities that most characters didn't have access to.
Barbarians, along with the other melee types, definitely needed some new abilities to help them keep up with casters, and adding that sort of class balance is a lot of the reason I'm interested in Pathfinder, but if you look at all the other classes, their new abilities are either expansions of old abilities, or at the least, expansions on the theme of old abilities. Even most of the other barbarian rage powers either enhance what the old Barbarian rage already did (bonus damage, bonus to hit, bonus survivability, bonuses to will saves), expand existing barbarian abilities (movement speed, damage reduction, intimidation, uncanny speed/awareness), or play on similar themes (added strength, knockback, extra attacks). The abilities that sort of stand out as weird and out of place are Low Light Vision, Night Sight, and Elemental Rage.
I realize that a DM can rule these abilities out of their game, but part of the point of pathfinder is to make conversion as easy as possible. A big part of that is going to be keeping the core character classes to the same sort of thematic elements they had originally.
This is the same reason Bardic music isn't going anywhere, it might have the details changed, but they're not going to suddenly become full caster/sages and lose their music.
It's the same reason that Clerics might get a lot of their spells and domains nerfed, but they're not going to suddenly lose their armor proficiencies and go down to a wizard BAB.
Monks are still going to have a 3/4 BAB, and Flurry of blows is probably not going to change significantly (though the numbers might be tweaked).
The really core elements of each of the classes, the traits that define them just shouldn't change, at least not if Pathfinder is going to truthfully claim to be backwards compatible with minimal work.
There's little or no advantage to adding Elemental Rage, balance wise, and it breaks thematics. Hell, even leave the damage the same and just don't call it elemental damage, rename it something like "Vicious blows" and have the barbarian deal that much extra damage on each attack as normal damage.
Any player in my game who plays bard has to accept that there is no light armor with no penalty, rather that they get a bonus feat limited to skill boosters or until pathfinder came out, they could choose armored caster, a feat that reduced ASF by 10%.
Also if they played a warmage they were forced to memorize their spells for the day (intelligence based caster=memorize, charisma=spontaneous) same with any class that casted from int.
Clerics could only wear light armor (so that paladins didn't get shafted so badly)
Paladins could detect evil always and had to take a move action to get a detect = to studying for three rounds.
And Natural Spell was banned.
Oh wait, my annecdotal evidence completely runs counter to yours.
And you know what, there was no argument, I told the players what the deal was before they made characters, and not a single person said the blue lines. If you don't want it in your game, tell the player before he makes his character that he can't have it. end of story, stop trying to remove it from those of us who want it...
And rogues have spells with their rogue tricks now, and monks have ki points so yes, they do get their mystical powers now, go run along to those threads and argue that they need to be taken away...
Actually, I do tell my players these things long before a game starts. You seem to think I'm talking about somthing specific to my games. I'm not, as said earlier I've played in a variety of groups, whats more, I've spoken to many who play in other groups as well, and of all you're the first I've seen to ban somthing like that.
Not all groups are like yours, I have seen players arguing when trying to ban core things, simply removing elemental rage makes it easy to have a game without it, but at the same time there'd be nothing stopping DMs such as yourself from just including them anyway, since, as you yourself have just pointed out if you want to alter core that badly some groups won't have a problem with it.
Removing Elemental Rage like I ask caters to more groups, since it gives DM's such as myself an easy way to keep elemental rage out the game and theres nthing to stop yourself from using it.
Keeping elemental rage will make things harder for myself and other DM's in my position.
And lastly, as said earlier, it's inconsitant. Wizards have to study for years to master magic, as do clerics in the service of a god. Sorcerers need to posssess in herit magical abilites, Paladins are chosen by their gods, bards need not only magical talent, but muscial talent to tie it with. The Barbarian? He doesn't need any work, he can just make his weapon drip acid by being angry.
Blast from the Past: Since I don't have a current barbarian player, but I had one in my Alpha playtests, I sent him the alternate rage system to give a look.
He really liked the old point system, and had plans upon plans of what to do with it over time had he gotten to play his barbarian/rogue longer. I was sure that he would prefer sticking with the old system.
However, looking over the list, he said that it made more sense for something like barbarian rage, which is suppose to be kind of a primal, spur of the moment thing, to be handled this way.
His point wasn't that the book keeping was bad, per se, but that it didn't add to the barbarian, and that he would have likely still taken a few more levels in barbarian with the new system.