This is a thread to discuss the Wizard specialists and universalists/generalists.
At the outset, I would like to mention two things:
1) There has been a general power-up for Wizards in the Pathfinder RPG (and this is coming from a frequent wizard player - I often play wizards when I do not DM/GM). Not only did they get a higher hit die (d6 from d4), but they also get many abilities on top of their normal spells per day. I know this was done to make sure that taking a prestige class is not always the best approach for a wizard. Nevertheless, I would say that wizards were a class that didn't really need much of a power boost, especially at higher levels.
2) Prohibited schools are now not really prohibited, as specialists simply lose their special abilities when they prepare spells from this school. This is a very gamist and anti-simulationist rule for which I cannot find any reasonable in-game meta-explanation.
Well, while the new abilities for the wizard are nice, I wouldn' necessarily consider them boosted.
The bonus spells for wizards is nothing more than bonus specialist spells. The "generalist" or Universal wizard got a pretty big boost in this area (which I expect to be toned down by final version), but the specialists basically just got some extra 1st level spells over what they already had. In fact, they loose their bonus 4th level spell from 3.5.
The HD bump was sorely needed IMO. d4 hit points was just too low in most cases.
Don't forget about the "nerfing" of save-or-die spells. This affects the wizard's (and other spellcasters) power at mid-to-high levels. There is also a growing trend on the boards to start swinging the "nerf bat" at save-or-suck spells also, which will further diminish the wizard's power.
Just my 2 cents, for whatever it is worth....
Oops, I just read the "Classes" part of the title and thus overlooked the "Barbarian, Fighter and Ranger" part. It seems that this is indeed not the time to raise these issue yet. Feel free to move this thread to the General Forums.
I like the new prohibited schools mechanic, as it resembles the druid's ban on metal armour. They forswear to learn these two schools, but they're not magically rendered incapable of ever using them - it just messes with their abilities if they do. I prefer such choice-and-consequence scenarios to flat prohibitions.
And, as I said: It can be explained by saying that when they give in to temptation (or necessity) and cast a spell from the schools they swore not to cast, it will wreak havoc with their focussed power (and those extra abilities aren't necessarily weak - take a necromancer, for example: one false spell and his undying army goes AWOL!).
I wasn't gonna comment but as I am bored a few things
1.Prohibited schools should be off limits not used when ya feel like it.
2.Divination school power. They need something else maybe never flat footed or a +2 to Init.
3.Evocation school power. should be +1 per dice
4.necromancy school power. Needs worded better and is useless for many levels give them a way to control undead even if it's just 1 HD per level or give them something useful I would subject smiler to a cleric 20+5 per 2 levels will save of fall under control usable 2 times a day +1 per level
5.Universal. they should not get the spells 1/8/20th powers sure but not the spells they give up nothing for them
I'll let yall hash this over before i say much more
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I wasn't gonna comment but as I am bored a few things
1.Prohibited schools should be off limits not used when ya feel like it.
2.Divination school power. They need something else maybe never flat footed or a +2 to Init.
3.Evocation school power. should be +1 per dice
4.necromancy school power. Needs worded better and is useless for many levels give them a way to control undead even if it's just 1 HD per level or give them something useful I would subject smiler to a cleric 20+5 per 2 levels will save of fall under control usable 2 times a day +1 per level
5.Universal. they should not get the spells 1/8/20th powers sure but not the spells they give up nothing for them
I'll let yall hash this over before i say much more
Good points, seeker. I think a good fix for the Generalist would be bonus spells known (maybe an extra 1 or 2 at the "bonus spell" levels). To me, that screams Generalist while not giving them the advantage of specialists.
humm the extra spells know is a good ideal. also maybe we could role spell school fouces in with the schools kinda silly they are not better at there school.
I think specialists should only be able to access spells from their prohibited schools by either:
A) Treating them as higher level spells (Normal Spell Level + X, where X should probably be somewhere between 1 and 3, perhaps 2)
B) Having the ability to access them only when being able to cast spells of higher level (probably higher by 1 to 3 levels, so perhaps 2 again)
Either of these changes would make the prohibited schools more meaningful. In return for this penalty, though, the specialist should get an equivalent benefit - perhaps having the spells of his specialty cast with a higher caster level (maybe equivalent to 2X, where X is the number of levels his prohibites school spells lag behind). Another possibility would be increasing the DC of his specialty schools spells.
Power creep of Wizards is a significant problem, as they are already among the more powerful classes in 3.5E, where only Clerics and Druids can surpass them. I am a frequent wizard player and my playtesting thus far suggests that wizards don't need the extra boost.
Sources of power creep for wizards:
1) Hit die increased from d4 to d6
2) Additional spell-like abilities per day
3) School powers
The first instance of power creep - the increase of the hit die, was in my mind completely unnecessary and we ought to go back to d4, or if people believe that Wizards absolutely must have more hit points, than I would go for 4+1 per level, which gives the same mean as d6, but higher lowest range and lower highest range. All in all, though, I think staying with the plain d4 would be best.
The school powers and the additional spell-like abilities per day were clearly added to make it more attractive to stay with the wizard class rather than switch to prestige classes. This is an admirable goal, but in the absence of a compensating penalty they serve to increase the power of wizards even further. I would recommend keeping the spell-like abilities and the school powers, but reducing the maximum spells memorizable per spell level to 3 rather than 4. Because prestige classes often give full spellcasting, but not other class features, they would also get only 3 memorizable spells per spell level at the most if associated with Wizard spellcasting. This would preserve the attractiveness of the single classed wizard without overpowering him.
Note: Although I have played Wizards, I have not yet playtested the changes I propose to make to the Wizard, such as reducing their spellcasting progression to 3 spells per spell level at the maximum.
Note: Although I have played Wizards, I have not yet playtested the changes I propose to make to the Wizard, such as reducing their spellcasting progression to 3 spells per spell level at the maximum.
No wizard spells are fine I never got that clerics got more anyhow. WIzard do not need to be weaker just to make other classes look good. They still have the lowest HD in the game worst BAB no armor and 2 bad saves. They do not need the number of spells lowered.
Besides the spell powers from the schools are just like 3.5 in number well more or less.
Note: Although I have played Wizards, I have not yet playtested the changes I propose to make to the Wizard, such as reducing their spellcasting progression to 3 spells per spell level at the maximum.No wizard spells are fine I never got that clerics got more anyhow. WIzard do not need to be weaker just to make other classes look good. They still have the lowest HD in the game worst BAB no armor and 2 bad saves. They do not need the number of spells lowered.
Besides the spell powers from the schools are just like 3.5 in number well more or less.
The Wizard got a huge power up in the Pathfinder RPG. The spell-like abilities are similar in number to the numbers of specialist spells in 3.5, but they apply to both specialists and generalists and the main drawback of having them, losing access to the prohibited schools, has been gutted. And on top of that wizards also get school powers...
The Wizard got a huge power up in the Pathfinder RPG. The spell-like abilities are similar in number to the numbers of specialist spells in 3.5, but they apply to both specialists and generalists and the main drawback of having them, losing access to the prohibited schools, has been gutted. And on top of that wizards also get school powers...
I am with ya on the generalist should not get the spells at all maybe the school powers but not the spells.
and the prohibited schools should be just that. No using them ever.
I have to agree with Seeker on this. The specialist wizard only really gained three benefits....
1) HD bumped to D6, which I like because it "standardizes" the classes more
2) School powers at 1st, 8th, and 20th level - which need to be tweaked a little for more flavor IMO
3) Can cast prohibited spells - this is a "hmmm" bonus to me. On the one hand I'm used to the old specialization rules and it seems a little weird. On the other hand, if they prepare a spell of the other school they loose access to their 3 school powers. Of couse this can be "cheated" by leaving a slot open and only preparing the prohibited spells if necessary later in the day so you get your specialist abilities most of the time anyways.
The bonus spells is nothing new (execpt for the Universalist) since the specialist wizards in 3.0 and 3.5 already got bonus spells. In fact the new specialists lose their bonus 4th level spell that they would have gotten under 3e.
The only things I would really change with the Pathfinder wizard would be...
1) Remove the Universal wizards' bonus spells
2) Tweak the school powers (+2 AC for Conjuration makes no sense IMO)
3) Maybe treat prohibited schools as 1 level higher for spell preparation
4) Give specialists Spell Focus and Spell Penetration in their school of magic and find something else for the Universalist wizards.
I'm leaning towards universalists being overpowered. They get bonus spells the same as specialists, but they get a wider array of spells to choose from.
The metamagic mastery ability is also fantastic. I forget who, but I read someone on the board who suggested capping it so that you couldn't boost a spell over the maximum spell slot available to the caster. That might be a good limit for that power.
For example, I was doing some prep work for a playtest adventure I'm running, and there was a wizard 13/archmage 2. When I pathfindered him, his 8th level spell changed from empowered chain lightning to a horrid wilting that he could either empower, quicken, or maximize, as the whim suited him. Then he could to it again through his arcane focus. That's pretty massive pants.
The metamagic mastery ability is also fantastic. I forget who, but I read someone on the board who suggested capping it so that you couldn't boost a spell over the maximum spell slot available to the caster. That might be a good limit for that power.
My same concern here (I actually opened a post on this topic, "Problems with Universal Wizard Abilities"); I truly hope Wizards cannot do the same trick Clerics could in 3.5 with Divine Metamagic (burning Turn Undead attempts like there is no tomorrow, but being able to Quicken AND Empower a Flame Strike with only 9 Cleric levels !!!)
As a radical suggestion, why don't get rid of "Generalist Wizards" entirely? PFRPG has already lessened the penalties for Specialist Wizards (preparing a prohibited spell removes for that day only the Specialist Bonus, and for many Magic Schools this is not a hindrance at all - Evokers all around the world, can you hear me ???); Psions (the psionic version of Wizards) work already in this way, they must choose from a psionic "school" of specialization at 1st level; and even in old Dragonlance Campaign, a Wizard had to choose from the White Robe, Red Robe, and Black Robe "Schools" of alignment.It could be a nice solution, since Generalist Wizards are still too good...they took the best special abilities as well as bonus spells that they can choose from EVERY school.
My 2 cents...
I'm leaning towards universalists being overpowered. They get bonus spells the same as specialists, but they get a wider array of spells to choose from.
The metamagic mastery ability is also fantastic. I forget who, but I read someone on the board who suggested capping it so that you couldn't boost a spell over the maximum spell slot available to the caster. That might be a good limit for that power.
I have the same concern here (I even opened a post entitled "Problems with Universal Wizard abilities"); I truly hope that a Wizard cannot do the same trick of Clerics in 3.5 with Divine Metamagic (they could burn Turn Undead attempts like there was no tomorrow but were able to Quicken AND Empower a Flame Strike with only 9 class levels !!!).
As a suggestion, why don't remove the "Generalist Wizards" entirely, forcing a Wizard to choose from a school of specialization at 1st level ? Psions already must do that (and they are practically the psionic version of Wizards), and PFRPG has already lessened the penalties for Specialists that prepare prohibited spells, losing only the Specialist bonus on that day; some Arcane Schools are currently ASKING for that kind of penalty (Evokers all around the world, can you hear me ???)
My 2 cents...