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Something interesting came up the last session with the Fighter in the game I run. He had recently switched to heavier armor, and was concerned about his speed being reduced, so he was looking to purchase Boots of Striding and Springing. Although the party was in a village where this item would exceed the gold piece limit for the village, the party knew a friendly NPC with extensive contacts who could get some more expensive items from a larger city in two to three days.
After informing the party of the time delay, I figured they would go wrap up a minor matter in a nearby dungeon, and pick up the item upon return. The party decided wait for the item before the fighter could even request for them to wait. The entire group thought it was important for their Fighter to stay mobile!
This got me thinking – every medium/heavy armor fighter I’ve ever ran myself tries to obtain a speed boost item to offset the slowdown caused by medium/heavy armor. I suspect others have seen this need as well, based on the reaction at my table.
With that in mind, would it be appropriate for Armor Training to reduced/eliminate the speed penalty for medium and heavy armor at different levels? Say treating medium armor as light at one level (say 3rd or 7th) and treating heavy armor as light armor at a second (say 7th or 11th). Even though it might cause cherry picking, the earlier this is available, the more benefit it would have to the fighter.
Thanks for reading.
This is a must have for the Fighter in my book.
The only other heavy armor users have ways around their slow movements,( clerics having movement spells at higher levels and paladins having a mount to move them around) I would say that once the armor check penalty was lowered to the armor check of a lighter type of armor, your movement shifts correspondingly. hence once your breastplates armor check became -2, you would then be moving a 30ft.
movement and armor penalty not being worth the slightly higher AC happens to be one of the most lopsided arguments. it is unfortunate that 3.5 relies so heavily on it being a gridded game, but as such mobility is a key to winning, or at least having the chance to get away.
Something interesting came up the last session with the Fighter in the game I run. He had recently switched to heavier armor, and was concerned about his speed being reduced, so he was looking to purchase Boots of Striding and Springing. Although the party was in a village where this item would exceed the gold piece limit for the village, the party knew a friendly NPC with extensive contacts who could get some more expensive items from a larger city in two to three days.
After informing the party of the time delay, I figured they would go wrap up a minor matter in a nearby dungeon, and pick up the item upon return. The party decided wait for the item before the fighter could even request for them to wait. The entire group thought it was important for their Fighter to stay mobile!
This got me thinking – every medium/heavy armor fighter I’ve ever ran myself tries to obtain a speed boost item to offset the slowdown caused by medium/heavy armor. I suspect others have seen this need as well, based on the reaction at my table.
With that in mind, would it be appropriate for Armor Training to reduced/eliminate the speed penalty for medium and heavy armor at different levels? Say treating medium armor as light at one level (say 3rd or 7th) and treating heavy armor as light armor at a second (say 7th or 11th). Even though it might cause cherry picking, the earlier this is available, the more benefit it would have to the fighter.
Thanks for reading.
Make it a feat for those fighters that feel its a problem. Otherwise, the ability would be percieved as unnecessary for the dexterous light weapon fighter or archer style fighter (or any mobility driven build).
...and if I could get someone to playtest a fighter in one of my games. I am currently running three games, one with back up characters already built ( a particularly dangerous game) and I have 4 barbarians, 2 paladins 3 rangers and NO FIGHTERS. I cant bribe them to play em.
...and if I could get someone to playtest a fighter in one of my games. I am currently running three games, one with back up characters already built ( a particularly dangerous game) and I have 4 barbarians, 2 paladins 3 rangers and NO FIGHTERS. I cant bribe them to play em.
This I have never seen as a problem, they all take one look at the Barbarian, and Fighter, and all go fighter.
That being said, especially with the changes and whatnot 3.p has made, Definitely should be in the realm of the fighter to reduce the movement penalty based upon their level of skill. As the OP mentioned, that lack of movement is a REALLY big deal, in so much as Almost every person I've seen roll out with something other than a Chain Shirt, has had some way of moving faster, be it a naturally faster race or boots of striding and springing. Definitely something that should be looked into changing for the Fighter, and at higher levels so people do not level dip for them.
-Weave
Make it a feat for those fighters that feel its a problem. Otherwise, the ability would be percieved as unnecessary for the dexterous light weapon fighter or archer style fighter (or any mobility driven build).Something interesting came up the last session with the Fighter in the game I run. He had recently switched to heavier armor, and was concerned about his speed being reduced, so he was looking to purchase Boots of Striding and Springing. Although the party was in a village where this item would exceed the gold piece limit for the village, the party knew a friendly NPC with extensive contacts who could get some more expensive items from a larger city in two to three days.
After informing the party of the time delay, I figured they would go wrap up a minor matter in a nearby dungeon, and pick up the item upon return. The party decided wait for the item before the fighter could even request for them to wait. The entire group thought it was important for their Fighter to stay mobile!
This got me thinking – every medium/heavy armor fighter I’ve ever ran myself tries to obtain a speed boost item to offset the slowdown caused by medium/heavy armor. I suspect others have seen this need as well, based on the reaction at my table.
With that in mind, would it be appropriate for Armor Training to reduced/eliminate the speed penalty for medium and heavy armor at different levels? Say treating medium armor as light at one level (say 3rd or 7th) and treating heavy armor as light armor at a second (say 7th or 11th). Even though it might cause cherry picking, the earlier this is available, the more benefit it would have to the fighter.
Thanks for reading.
I would have to disagree, archer style fighters are fine enough as is, so throw a freebee bone to the tank fighter. (power attack, improved unarmed strike and combat expertise should be free Fighter abilities that others can take as feats)
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I also think making it a feat would be the way to go. On a related note, I think the big problem with this is that mithril counts as a lighter category of armor. If this were simply removed from mithril's qualities, then I think you'd see a lot more thought go into the light armor builds - they'd have to give up some AC to be able to keep their speed up (without spending the a feat that is.)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I also think making it a feat would be the way to go. On a related note, I think the big problem with this is that mithril counts as a lighter category of armor. If this were simply removed from mithril's qualities, then I think you'd see a lot more thought go into the light armor builds - they'd have to give up some AC to be able to keep their speed up (without spending the a feat that is.)
What you say is true in principle, and will become more true if we were to implement improvements to medium and heavy armor, but in the rules as written, here's the thing:
Really, a mithril breastplate is almost indistinguishable from a mithril chain shirt. There is almost no difference.
MBP = +5 armor, +5 max dex
MCS = +4 armor, +6 max dex
The root problem here is really that the chain shirt (mithril or otherwise) itself is too good, giving a combined armor/DEX bonus better than ANY of the medium armors (save that it is equal to the breastplate), and only two of the medium armors (chain/BP) even give an ARMOR bonus (irrespective of DEX) that is better than the chain shirt.
Honestly, throw DEX out the window entirely. Just think about the armor bonus. Ask yourself this question:
Is it worth the movement penalty of medium armor to AT MOST get one point of AC?
Obviously not.
Medium armor is almost completely pointless in the world of D&D, other than as default stuff for monsters to wear. Whatever is done with the armors, the chain shirt needs to be nerfed or eliminated and/or the medium armors made better by comparison.
PS - I realize this is really a rant more appropriate for the time when we are dealing with the "equipment" chapter, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
What you say is true in principle, and will become more true if we were to implement improvements to medium and heavy armor, but in the rules as written, here's the thing:
Really, a mithril breastplate is almost indistinguishable from a mithril chain shirt. There is almost no difference.
MBP = +5 armor, +5 max dex
MCS = +4 armor, +6 max dexThe root problem here is really that the chain shirt (mithril or otherwise) itself is too good, giving a combined armor/DEX bonus better than ANY of the medium armors (save that it is equal to the breastplate), and only two of the medium armors (chain/BP) even give an ARMOR bonus (irrespective of DEX) that is better than the chain shirt.
Honestly, throw DEX out the window entirely. Just think about the armor bonus. Ask yourself this question:
Is it worth the movement penalty of medium armor to AT MOST get one point of AC?
Obviously not.
Medium armor is almost completely pointless in the world of D&D, other than as default stuff for monsters to wear. Whatever is done with the armors, the chain shirt needs to be nerfed or eliminated and/or the medium armors made better by comparison.
My solution is that light armors should add up to 7-8 points armor/dex, medium armors 9-10 points armor/dex, and heavy armors 11-12 points armor/dex.
To wear heavy armor requires three feats, (light armor medium armor and heavy armor), so by this philosophy medium armor should provide a better benefit than light armor and heavy armor even better than medium. The problem is backwards compatibility with non-core armors in other books.|
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Really, a mithril breastplate is almost indistinguishable from a mithril chain shirt. There is almost no difference.
MBP = +5 armor, +5 max dex
MCS = +4 armor, +6 max dexThe root problem here is really that the chain shirt (mithril or otherwise) itself is too good, giving a combined armor/DEX bonus better than ANY of the medium armors (save that it is equal to the breastplate), and only two of the medium armors (chain/BP) even give an ARMOR bonus (irrespective of DEX) that is better than the chain shirt.
Medium armor is almost completely pointless in the world of D&D, other than as default stuff for monsters to wear. Whatever is done with the armors, the chain shirt needs to be nerfed or eliminated and/or the medium armors made better by comparison.
While i understand this isn't the original post's point, i whole heatedly agree here. I think that medium armors should be reworked and by extension heavy armor. While i understand the concept of using dex to offset the lower ac, i still think higher tier medium armor (aka banded mail/breastplate) should be fundamentally better than any light armor, and higher tier heavy armor(aka full plate) should be better than any other armor at all.
Dont even get me started on chain shirt vs chain mail arguments =P. That is definitely an argument for another time/place.|
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My solution is that light armors should add up to 7-8 points armor/dex, medium armors 9-10 points armor/dex, and heavy armors 11-12 points armor/dex.
To wear heavy armor requires three feats, (light armor medium armor and heavy armor), so by this philosophy mediuim armor should provide a better benefit than light armor and heavy armor even better than medium. The problem is backwards compatibility with non-core armors in other books.
I love this idea. Very well stated. My thoughts exactly.
Director of Games
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Jason, many of us are really trying to restrain ourselves regarding how the Fighter has been short-changed in comparison to everyone else, and many of us are eagerly awaiting the few little fixes they need to give them their (long) due umph. We have the utmost confidence in your compassion and ability to get the job 'done' correctly, but as we Playtest, Fighters are, um, not performing up to snuff (for some of our tastes).
So, you'll keep seeing Fighter-fixes until they are, fixed.
Hang in there, sir.
I know there is some frustration with the fighter right now. A lot of this stems from Feats and trust me, the fighter is going to get some serious upgrades in Feat power when we get to that chapter. Currently, I am trying to look at the class itself and see if there are any changes that need to be made. The armor speed enhancement is looking more likely by the day.
Thanks for sticking with me on this. I know the process can be trying, but it is the only way I can get through these rules and retain the shreds of my sanity.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What you say is true in principle, and will become more true if we were to implement improvements to medium and heavy armor, but in the rules as written, here's the thing:
Really, a mithril breastplate is almost indistinguishable from a mithril chain shirt. There is almost no difference.
MBP = +5 armor, +5 max dex
MCS = +4 armor, +6 max dexThe root problem here is really that the chain shirt (mithril or otherwise) itself is too good, giving a combined armor/DEX bonus better than ANY of the medium armors (save that it is equal to the breastplate), and only two of the medium armors (chain/BP) even give an ARMOR bonus (irrespective of DEX) that is better than the chain shirt.
Honestly, throw DEX out the window entirely. Just think about the armor bonus. Ask yourself this question:
Is it worth the movement penalty of medium armor to AT MOST get one point of AC?
Obviously not.
Medium armor is almost completely pointless in the world of D&D, other than as default stuff for monsters to wear. Whatever is done with the armors, the chain shirt needs to be nerfed or eliminated and/or the medium armors made better by comparison.
My solution is that light armors should add up to 7-8 points armor/dex, medium armors 9-10 points armor/dex, and heavy armors 11-12 points armor/dex.
To wear heavy armor requires three feats, (light armor medium armor and heavy armor), so by this philosophy medium armor should provide a better benefit than light armor and heavy armor even better than medium. The problem is backwards compatibility with non-core armors in other books.
Well, as we address certian issues, there are places where backwards compatibility is going to squeak a little bit to make room for change.
I like your idea of benchmarking light armor, but I might try to make it a bit bigger of a gap from light to med to hvy. Perhaps light armor up to +6, med +9, hvy +12.
One idea I posited in another thread (here), which actually would aid in backwards comp by not having to heavily revise armor types, is adding helmets as a supplemental type of armor.
A simple version would be that an open helmet gives +1, a great helm +2. Add an ACP of -1 for open helm and great -2, and have it apply (doubled if you like) to Perception checks.
Can you wear a helmet with light armor? Sure. It will work just fine. BUT, insert into the text for helmets this sentence: "When wearing a helmet, a character cannot make use of abilities that require the character to wear light or no armor."
You can rationalize it as the helmet impeding your vision and hearing, making it harder for you to have the lightning-fast reactions you need to use evasion or ranger combat styles or whatever. This de facto makes helmets an accessory to heavier armors and a pure add-on to the rules. You come across a heavy armor character in an old adventure, just plop a helmet on him for some extra AC. No penalty to movement, just extra AC for the med/heavy wearer.
That way, full plate + great helm = +10 armor/+1 Dex, and armor training improves both.
Admittedly, we're sort of verging out of "fighter class features" and into a discussion that will come up during the "equipment" playtest, but it's hard to talk about one without the other.
@ more bits of copper. As a player that plays fighters quite often, this needs to be addressed. Mobility vs ac is critical. I often disregared the Medium and Heavy armors for this reason. If the trade off was a little better, i would not do so. In the historic area, the most heavly armor people were the most difficult to damage(high ac) but easist to catch(speed). This should likely be in the equip section, but should be adressed. Armor needs to be more effective, increasing ac bonus for the med and heavy should be considered very strongly. Humble thoughts.
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Interesting, I have now seen this idea pop up on multiple threads. Not sure if it is spreading or this is just more unique germination of the same idea. I will certainly keep this in mind.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
D'oh! Must of missed it scanning through the other Fighter: Armor Training threads. Apologies if I stole someone else's idea.
Regardless, Jason, thanks for considering the concept. It would definitely give the Fighter a nice boost. Can't wait for the new fighter feats!
Thanks for reading.
This may be out of left field, but along with the suggestions for speed, what about the idea of giving the Fighter an extraordinary ability like a one-round haste once per day (probably a mid or high level ability). If I'm not mistaken, that would give them a full-attack plus a move action.
If this ability is already present somewhere else via a feat or such, could you point me to the source?
What about having a class feature that allows the fighter to ignore the movement penalties of armor worn? Probably shouldn't kick in until level 5 or so to prevent level dipping.
Things off the top of my head to consider:
1) Nullifies the Dwarf's always move 20'no-matter-what, but only if he becomes a fighter
2) Barbarian has his extra movement, so it puts the fighter almost on par with him with moving tactically
3) Ranger doesn't have to worry as he's only proficient with light armor
4) Paladin is a concern, as he would now be the slowest class if he wears heavy armor (which IMHO, he should). He would have to be given compensation.
Since the other biggest users of medium and heavy armor in the game tend to be Clerics and Paladins, I'd support a push to give Fighters a level-based approach towards negating the speed penalties of Medium and Heavy Armor. It'd also give Fighters a reason to keep wearing the medium armor they bought in their early career rather than saving for a rapid upgrade like the clerics and paladins go for. This gives them other opportunities, and I am all for that!
In another thread it was offered that Max Dex, Arcane Failure, and Speed penalties should all be determined by encumbrance. Armor should just count it's wait toward encumbrance.
I'm a big fan of this idea. In most cases for a high Str fighter, it means you move slower only if you are hauling a sack of gold or a fallen comrade. If you're only carrying armor you can keep up with the party.
I use Light and Medium armor a majority of my fighters (I favor Ashigaru Armor; Oriental Adventure) and I think that just granting the ability to move at full-speed in Heavy armor is too much for a single feat. I suppose 2 feats to negate is fine as it be a serious investment to overcome a minor weakness since speed is one of the few reasons to wear lighter armors (that and you cant put Heavy armors on yourself…without penalty).
Actually I have always been wanting a sort-of Fighter-version of the Archmage prestige class (a Legionnaire sort of thing) and the ability to negate the speed penalty for Heavy Armor would be an acceptable ability for such a prestige class.
The reason for my concern is that in 4E($?) there is no benefit to Fighters that wear light armors…at all. And I’d like to make sure that Fighters don’t become a Heavy-Armor-Only class.