Level Adjustments in Pathfinder

[Courrain]

Before I begin talking about Level Adjustments in the Pathfinder RPG system, I must say that I really like what Paizo has done to improve 3.5 D&D. The character classes look so much better than they did in 3.5. They look more versatile and offer a lot more options. And there are fewer 'dead' levels to contend with.

But ever since I got my own copy of the Beta version, I have been wondering what Paizo has in mind for those people who want to role play a nonstandard race that has a level adjustment tied to them. IMO (and probably the opinion of several other fans of D&D), level adjustments are a badly created deterrant to playing something non-standard. As anyone who has read 4e's Races and Classes, level adjustments were created simply to ensure that the standard races weren't rendered obsolete by races who simply have more (if not more powerful) advantages than the standards. And as anyone who owns and has read WoTC's Savage Species book, certain advantages/abilities/powers confer a level adjustment. Unfortunately WoTC never really went into explaining why those advantages/abilities/powers did have level adjustments to begin with it. And it later didn't help my opinion of level adjustments when WoTC created several ways to circumvent the very LAs they had set up (the Raptoran's flight progression, the staggered breath weapon of the 3.5 Dragonborn, the living construct subtype, etc.)

Now, I know that Paizo might not get rid of Level Adjustments in the Pathfinder rpg (because it would be too big a departure from 3.5), but I would like to personally see:

(1) Some actual explanations or examples of what constitutes a level adjustment for a racial advantage/ability or power.
(2) A better way of determing level adjustments.
(3) Some kind of compensation for spellcasters who have a level adjustment.

Btw, does anyone think that the Fly skill and the Perception(Smell) skill have any effect on the level adjustments for Flight and Scent?

Courrain- the Bronze Half-Dragon Kensai

[Nemoricus]

I'm not sure, but I think that the Fly skill really doesn't have an impact on the overall gameplay implications of Fly. Fly just makes it easier for the character to pull off the more acrobatic stunts.

[tergiver]

Courrain - I think the LA bonuses come from two places:
1) Powers that you just won't ever get as a PC (troll regeneration, whatever eladrin has at-will CLW, massive natural armor)
2) Powers that are Above Your Level.

LA breaks down because powers that are above your level become irrelevant at a certain level, and the relative importance of powers you don't get goes down as you go up in level.

There's a vague consensus on the boards that the Pathfinder races are essentially LA+1, so now tieflings, genasi, and aasimar are all fair game and equal footing. I've run some playtests with a tiefling character, and it was no big deal.

I've also used the variant rules for paying down LA in my 3.x games, and that's worked fine. It's not the Pathfinder Way (since you're spending XP), but hey.

[hogarth]

I kind of like the method given by K and Frank Trollman for playing monsters in their "Races of War" thread (Method #2):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=9776626&postcount=3

(1) Assume a CR X monster is roughly equal to an ECL X+1 character (unless the monster is Awesome[tm]).
(2) Assume the monster's stats are using the elite array and work out stat adjustments based on that (e.g. an ogre would get +6 to Str instead of +10).
(3) Give the monster X+1 hit dice of the appropriate size to make the HP/BAB look right.

I haven't tried it, but it looks about right to me as a first-order approximation.

[Courrain]

tergiver wrote:

There's a vague consensus on the boards that the Pathfinder races are essentially LA+1, so now tieflings, genasi, and aasimar are all fair game and equal footing. I've run some playtests with a tiefling character, and it was no big deal.

Interesting. If the standard races in Pathfinder are now believed to have a +1 level adjustment, how does this effect creatures with a higher level adjustment than +1? Would a creature with a +2 level adjustment be now considered a creature with a +1 level adjustment? Or will the creature's level adjustment stay the same? *curious*

Also, since WoTC went out of their way to circumvent the level adjustments for some of the advantages/abilities/powers in 3.5 (the Raptoran's flight progression, the staggered breath weapon of the dragonborn, etc.), will those changes be kept in Pathfinder and be used to redesign some of the monsters? Ex. the Raptoran's flight progression being used for all flying monsters. Ex. the staggered breath weapon of the Dragonborn being used for Half-Dragons and any creature with a breath weapon.

[tergiver]

Courrain wrote:

Interesting. If the standard races in Pathfinder are now believed to have a +1 level adjustment, how does this effect creatures with a higher level adjustment than +1? Would a creature with a +2 level adjustment be now considered a creature with a +1 level adjustment? Or will the creature's level adjustment stay the same? *curious*

Good question, and good question about the staggers to avoid LA in some books.

There are some people who advocate just reducing all LA's by one, but I'd say it probably depends upon the LA and the monster. How much do the pathfinder changes alter, say, the balance of high-LA creatures like dragons or mind flayers?

Also, Enough LAs were probably broken to begin with that it's even harder to make a general rule.

[Archade]

Actually, I think that the level adjustment mechanic should be looked at. The idea of a level handicap in exchange for abilities is great, and works well on lower levels (LA +1, etc) but the fuzzy area that should be looked at is creatures with Racial HD, and creatures with high Level Adjustments are fragile, and lack some basic building blocks -- hit dice, save bonuses, base attack bonuses, and skill points.

[hogarth]

Archade wrote:

Actually, I think that the level adjustment mechanic should be looked at. The idea of a level handicap in exchange for abilities is great, and works well on lower levels (LA +1, etc) but the fuzzy area that should be looked at is creatures with Racial HD, and creatures with high Level Adjustments are fragile, and lack some basic building blocks -- hit dice, save bonuses, base attack bonuses, and skill points.

That's why Frank Trollman/K's solution is quite elegant. Playing a "PC-like" monster of CR X should roughly fit into an ECL X+1 party (with a little tweaking of hit dice).

[Gnome-Eater]

hogarth wrote:

Archade wrote:

Actually, I think that the level adjustment mechanic should be looked at. The idea of a level handicap in exchange for abilities is great, and works well on lower levels (LA +1, etc) but the fuzzy area that should be looked at is creatures with Racial HD, and creatures with high Level Adjustments are fragile, and lack some basic building blocks -- hit dice, save bonuses, base attack bonuses, and skill points.

That's why Frank Trollman/K's solution is quite elegant. Playing a "PC-like" monster of CR X should roughly fit into an ECL X+1 party (with a little tweaking of hit dice).

Who?

EDIT: Oooohhh. The link you provided. :)