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This thread is for two types of characters:
1. Characters that are broken or overpowered in 3.5 and we want to analyze what PF is going to have that makes them better or worse.
2. Characters that are broken or overpowered in PF and we want to analyze why that is.
So to get started I think we should talk about formatting. We should also show the lowest level you can achieve the broken combos. (looking at a bunch of 20th level characters is not the best way to handle this because I think 20th level characters are not the most played characters in D&D (yet arguably the most talked about)) They should be in the following format:
3.5 Elf Chain Fighter
Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 3
28 point buy
STR16/DEX14/CON14/INT10/WIS12/CHA8
STR16/DEX16/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ elf)
STR18/DEX16/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ levels)
STR20/DEX18/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ stat items)
FORT +10 (5+3+2)
REF +5 (2+1+2)
WILL +5 (2+1+2)
HP ~67 (10 + 5d10 + 3d10 + 9)
AC 21 (10+4dex+5 armor+1 ring+1amulet)
BAB +9
Initiative +4
Skill Points 24 at least 3 in craft (weaponsmithing)
Feats
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
F1 Combat Expertise (-5 to hit for +5 AC)
F2 Improved Trip (+4 to trip attempts)
3 Combat Reflexes (can take 5 AoO per turn)
F4 Deft Opertunist (+4 to hit with AoO)
F6 Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
6 Monkey Grip (use large weapon at -2 to hit)
9 Expert Tactician (if you hit with an AoO you and all allies gain +2 hit and damage)
Class Features
Exotic Reach (can take AoO against opponents with Cover)
Trip Attack (+2 to trip attempts)
Flurry of Strikes (-2 to hit but +1 attack)
Equipment
+2 Large Spiked Chain 8k
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2K
+1 Ring of Protection 2K
+2 Vest of Resistance 4K
+1 Mithral Chain 2K
+2 Belt of Str 8K
+2 Gloves of Dex 8k
2k left
Attacks (15 foot radius reach!)
bab 9, str 5, magic 2, wf 1, size -2, Flurry -2
+13/+13/+8 (Prone +4, AoO+4, Expert Tactician +2, touch attack to trip)
Trip Attempt
str 5, improved trip 4, trip attack 2
+11 vs their str or dex
Damage
2d6+9 (+2 w/ expert tactician)
So this is your basic chain fighter build. It will knock you down in a huge area and do it over and over and over.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Well, tripping is a lot harder in PRPG. Don't expect it to work as often as before.
Also, ditch Monkey grip, make the spiked chain +1, and use that 6K gp to get strongarm gauntlets from the Magic Item Compendium. They let you use a weapon one size large at no penalty. Then take weapon specialization, and you've got the same basic character, but with an additional +1 to attack and damage.
JoelF847 said, "Also, ditch Monkey grip, make the spiked chain +1, and use that 6K gp to get strongarm gauntlets from the Magic Item Compendium."
I believe you might have meant Strongarm Bracers, but the point is well taken. Do not mean to offend.
This thread is for two types of characters:
1. Characters that are broken or overpowered in 3.5 and we want to analyze what PF is going to have that makes them better or worse.
2. Characters that are broken or overpowered in PF and we want to analyze why that is.So to get started I think we should talk about formatting. We should also show the lowest level you can achieve the broken combos. (looking at a bunch of 20th level characters is not the best way to handle this because I think 20th level characters are not the most played characters in D&D (yet arguably the most talked about)) They should be in the following format:
3.5 Elf Chain Fighter
Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 328 point buy
STR16/DEX14/CON14/INT10/WIS12/CHA8
STR16/DEX16/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ elf)
STR18/DEX16/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ levels)
STR20/DEX18/CON12/INT10/WIS12/CHA8 (w/ stat items)FORT +10 (5+3+2)
REF +5 (2+1+2)
WILL +5 (2+1+2)
HP ~67 (10 + 5d10 + 3d10 + 9)
AC 21 (10+4dex+5 armor+1 ring+1amulet)
BAB +9
Initiative +4
Skill Points 24 at least 3 in craft (weaponsmithing)Feats
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
F1 Combat Expertise (-5 to hit for +5 AC)
F2 Improved Trip (+4 to trip attempts)
3 Combat Reflexes (can take 5 AoO per turn)
F4 Deft Opertunist (+4 to hit with AoO)
F6 Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
6 Monkey Grip (use large weapon at -2 to hit)
9 Expert Tactician (if you hit with an AoO you and all allies gain +2 hit and damage)Class Features
Exotic Reach (can take AoO against opponents with Cover)
Trip Attack (+2 to trip attempts)
Flurry of Strikes (-2 to hit but +1 attack)Equipment
+2 Large Spiked Chain 8k
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor 2K
+1 Ring of Protection 2K
+2 Vest of Resistance 4K
+1 Mithral Chain 2K
+2 Belt of Str 8K
+2 Gloves of Dex 8k
2k leftAttacks (15 foot radius reach!)
bab 9, str 5, magic 2, wf 1, size -2, Flurry -2
+13/+13/+8 (Prone +4, AoO+4, Expert Tactician +2, touch attack to trip)
Trip Attempt
str 5, improved trip 4, trip attack...
Why is this a broken character? Maybe a bit overpowered at low levels but at high levels is more useful then a standard damage one. Actually a useful high level fighter. Isn't that one of the main reasons that everyone wants to weaken spellcasters, so fighter can be useful at high levels?
This is a repost from Official D&D forums, from way back when. I did not design this character, TG did.
Poster Name: Tleilaxu_Ghola & RadicalTaoist
Character Name: The Chrono-Legionaire
System: Faerun
"Run, Run, just as fast as you can! You can't catch me; I'm the ginger-bread man!"
Brief Description & Thematic Purpose: We didn't try to go for the ultimate stat monster with the most buffs, we went for the ultimate in mobility. The chrono-legionaire is capable of teleporting in (at medium range) and teleporting out at long range all while mixing in a full-round attack and regaining psionic focus in the same round. Psionics remain the king of long-term action novas.
Class/Levels: Nomad 3/Ranger 1/Nomad 1/Anarchic Initiate 3/Slayer 2/Fighter1/Slayer 8/Anarchic Initiate 1
Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Ability Scores:
Str: 22 [14 + 6 enhancement + 2 Inherent] (6)
Dex: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Con: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Int: 32 [16 + 5 (Level Increases) +6 enhancement +5 inherent] (10)
Wis: 18 [12 + 6 enhancement] (4)
Cha: 14 [8 + 6 enhancement] (0)
**Note: if assimilate is successfully used, all stats gain a +4 unnamed bonus for one hour.
Belt of Magnificence +6 200,000 gp (MiniHB)
Cloak of Resistance +5, 25,000 gp (DMG)
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Spiked Mithril Breast Plate +5 with +3 weapon enhancement and Defending, 79,350 (DMG)
Skin of the Defender, 32000 gp (XPH)
Tome of Clear Thoughts +5, 137,500
Shirt of Natural Armor +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Cold-Iron Great Sword +5 Valorous Mage-bane Evil Outsider Bane, 145375 (XPH, DMG, CAdv, UE)
Potion of Bless Weapon x5 (CL 2) 500 (DMG)
Torc of Power Preservation 36,000 (DMG)
Ring of Force Shield 8500 (DMG)
Boots of Skating 7000 (XPH)
Bag of Tricks (grey) 900 (DMG)
Pale Green Ioun Stone 30000 (DMG)
Total: 755,925
Tactical Statistics
Hit points = 8 + 4d4+3d6+2d8+1d8+8d8+1d6 = 81 + 20xCON = 181
Initiative: +7 [Dex + 2 unnamed (psi-crystal)]
Move Speeds:
45 land
60 [Psionic Fly] Fly
AC: 44 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection + 5 dex + 2 Shield AC]
TAC: 23 [10 base + 3 unnamed + 5 dex + 5 deflection]
FFAC: 39 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection +2 Shield AC]
**Note on AC Buffs: The above AC figures are "unbuffed." If under the effects of control body (as is the routine after 15th level), all of the above ACs increase by 6. (+11 int -5 dex). This brings the typical total AC to 50 when buffed. Furthermore, if one overchannels a force screen to 17 pp the gish gains an additional +8 shield bonus (a net increase of +6). Thus the most buffed AC this character can achieve is 56. This is possible without resorting to any forms that grant a natural armor bonus.
Saves:
Fort: 20 [9 Base+ 5 resistance + 5 consitution+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Ref: 18 [7 Base + 5 resistance + 5 dexterity+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Will: 25 [15 Base + 5 resistance +4 wisdom +1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +4 competance vs. compulsions and mind-affecting effects (lucid buffer), +2 insight bonus vs. compulsions or lawful effects.
The Gingerbread Man: Nimble Psicrystal
Grants the Chrono-Legionnaire +2 to all initiative checks.
Important Abilities: Share powers
For style points, we recommend making this little guy small, humanoid, and brown.
BUILD PROGRESSION:
Nomad: Psionic Weapon, (Overchannel), (Practiced Manifester),
Nomad:
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Ranger: (Track)
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Psionic Meditiation, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: Deep Impact, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Power Attack)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: , [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]
BAB: 17
Manifester Level: 17
Effective Manifester Level: 20
Power Points: 360 [250 + 11*(EML/2)]
BUILD PROGRESSION:
Ranger: Improved Bull Rush, (Track), (Power Attack),
Nomad: (Overchannel)
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Nomad:
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Practiced Manifester, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: EK (Psionic Lion's Charge), [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Shock Trooper)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer: [Breach Power Resistance]
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: [Blast Feedback], [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]
Personally, I prefer this build as it has better power attack support than the original. This build is not capable of reliably hiting a Heca. With a brilliant weapon the best bonus it can get is a +51 to attack, versus the Heca's 58 brilliant AC. Not bad, but not perfect.
Against less... rediculous foes... this build has incredible preformance. Power attack penalties are absorbed by the heedless charge from shock trooper, and psionic lion's charge allows for extremely deadly charges. Against weakly armored opponents one can easily deal a lot of damage, to wit:
Assuming all hits and same buffs as in the Heca busting trick (except schism & bless weapon). Drop the valorous enhancement, outsider bane, and mage bane enhancements in favor of speed. This is just to make the build even more acceptable in any campaign. Now, the build is non-setting specific. Removing the cold iron material type can reduce costs greatly.
1. Swift action psionic lion's charge (augmented to 20 pp)
2. Headless Leap Attack.
Attack Bonus: +44/+44/+39/+34 [17 base + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 2 charging + 7 insight]
Damage: 590 [5*(17 unnamed (psionic lion's charge) + 68 power attack + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 8 insight + 2d6 base)]
Even in an AMF the damage & attack is considerable:
Attack Bonus in AMF: +21 [17 base + 2 strength + 2 charging]
Damage: 78 [68 power attack + 3 strength + 2d6 base]
[b]Class Requirements:
Anarchic Initiate (CPsi): Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (psionics) 8, Overchannel feat;
Illithid Slayer (XPH): Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Track feat;
--------Tactical Stats-------------Saves------------
1.--BAB: 0,---ML 1, EML--1,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 2
2.--BAB: 1,---ML 2, EML--2,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 3
3.--BAB: 1,---ML 3, EML--3,--Fort: 1, Ref: 1, Will: 3
4.--BAB: 2,---ML 3, EML--4,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 3
5.--BAB: 3,---ML 4, EML--5,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 5
6.--BAB: 3,---ML 5, EML--6,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 6
7.--BAB: 4,---ML 6, EML--7,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 8
8.--BAB: 5,---ML 7, EML--8,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 8
9.--BAB: 6,---ML 7, EML--9,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 9
10. BAB: 7,---ML 8, EML-10,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 10
11.-BAB: 8,---ML 8, EML-11,--Fort: 6, Ref: 4, Will: 10
12.-BAB: 9,---ML 9, EML-12,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 10
13.-BAB: 10,-ML 10, EML-13,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
14.-BAB: 11,-ML 11, EML-14,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
15.-BAB: 12,-ML 12, EML-15,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
16.-BAB: 13,-ML 13, EML-16,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
17.-BAB: 14,-ML 14, EML-17,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 14
18.-BAB: 15,-ML 15, EML-18,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
19.-BAB: 16,-ML 16, EML-19,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
20.-BAB: 17,-ML 17, EML-20,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 15
Notable Class/Feat Abilities:
Wild Surge +1: By paying a 5% probability of dazing myself I gain +1 ML for all purposes and 1 free point of augmentation.
Chaotic Surge: By using either wild surge or overchannel I can opt to roll a d% dice to gain the following effects:
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel is unnaffected and functions normally
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects reduced by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects increased by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects maximized
Breach Power Resistance: Works against spell resistance as well when magic-psionic clarity is in effect. Every time the character succeeds in a hit in melee combat against an enemy he reduces their SR/PR by 1. These SR/PR reductions are cumulative and last 12 hours. The character must be psionically focused for this ability to function.
Cerebral Immunity: Basically I get a supernatural mind-blank effect that cannot be dispelled while I am psionically focused. Immunity to mind-affecting abilities is pretty handy. Note that the character can selectively allow certain mind-affecting powers to affect him, making this more versatile than mind-blank.
Leap Attack + Power Attack + Deep Impact: Nothing like a 4:1 return on a power attack with a two-handed weapon, especially when you resolve the attack as a touch attack.
(The following list is in the order in which the powers are acquired. The level of the power and which level it was obtained at is noted)
Vigor [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Prescience Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Precognition Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Force Screen [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Mind Thrust [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Evade Attack [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Dimension Swap [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Energy Stun [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Damp Power [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Dimension Twister [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Dispel Psionics [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Touch Sight [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Energy Burst [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Psionic Fly [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Detect Hostile Intent [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Psionic Dimension Door [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Telekenetic Maneuver [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Anticipatory Strike [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Celestial Conduit [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Psionic Teleport [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Teleport Trigger [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Inconsistant Location [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 14]
Solicit Psi-Crystal [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Control Body [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Retrieve [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Divert Teleport [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 16]
Temporal Reiteration [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
Energy Conversion [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
True Metabolism [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Schism [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Mind over Energy [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Recall Death [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Assimilate[9th level power, obtained at Character Level 20]
Total Skill Points: 186
Just the skill ranks are provided below. Notable skills will include bonuses (at 20th level).
Jump: 32 [23 ranks +4 speed + 5 STR]
Knowledge [Psionics]: 8
Knowledge [Planes]: 8
Concentration: 23
Psicraft: 16
Survival: 23
Listen: 21
Spot: 21
Diplomacy: 25 [23 ranks +2 Cha]
Essentially, psionics have a little advantage over arcane, despite the deluge of broken spells, feats, and PrCs available to arcanists: action novas and power versatility.
Action gaining tricks:
Temporal Acceleration: (Available 14th level) It's just better than time stop for so many reasons, let me count the ways:
It's takes a swift action to manifest, so after you gain all those rounds for buffing, you can still take a full round attack
it's available at 11 ML, unlike time stop which is availabe at 17th CL at the earliest
Augmentable (read adjustable) number of rounds gained. Only need one round? Why spend too many pp? The base cost is only 11 pp.
Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal (Available 15th level): Basically this trick gives the psion one full round of mental actions each round (which he uses to regain focus and manifest powers) and one full round of physical actions each round (which he uses to attack with). It's like a two-for-one deal.
Schism (Available 18th level): It's really quite simple; you manifest this power and get a free standard action each round at a -6 ML penalty. Great for on the fly buffing. It lasts rounds per level making it vastly superior to the arcane celerity, which grants only one standard action. Plus it's only a fourth level power.
Power Versatility
If you are unfamiliar with psionics, I will inform you of the wonders that are available to psions here. Powers can be augmented. This means that your first level powers can be as good as your higher level powers. A first level mind thrust can deal 20d10 at 20th level (if you spend 20 pp). This means that the number of powers a psion knows is not at all comparable to a wizard. A wizard's magic missile just doesn't deliver at 20th level, but a psion's mind thrust can. Bear in mind that to spend 20 pp on a given power one must have 20 Manifester Levels to do so.
Also, a psion can use his power points on any power he knows. So, like a sorcerer he is spontaneous. But it's better than a sorcerer, because his powers aren't locked by level. If he likes a psion can spend all his pp on really high level (or highly augmented) powers several times a day, or can conserve his power points and manifest at a diminished level. So his pp expendature can be matched to whatever the DM throws at you. Unlike the sorcerer a psion has no difficulty of spending all his pp in a day, and so he attains a higher efficiency of his resources. Waste not want not is the essential motto of a psion. Why end the day with a lot of 1st or 2nd level spell slots?
Tactical Advantage: Teleportation
Divert Teleport + Dimensional Twister: Requires a single target make two will saves or take damage (augmentable, minimum 5d6) and be teleported to some location within sight and medium range. Consumes a standard and immediate action.
Divert Teleport + Psicrystal Share Powers: The Gingerbread Man provides the Chrono-Legionnaire with another immediate action to redirect teleportations with.
Retrieve: If I see it, it's mine. Any object that weighs 10 lbs/level within sight (even attended objects) can be teleported to my hand with a failed will save on the part of the object.
Dimension Swap + Divert Teleport: Swap your allies places and then divert the teleportation effect to anywhere within sight and medium range. Essentially you can get your friends (or yourself and a friend) anywhere on the battle field with a standard and an immediate action or two.
Teleport Trigger + Divert Teleport: Want to get a way, but not that far away? Teleport trigger is an XP-free teleport contingency that lasts hours per level & divert teleport is a very useful power that lasts 10 mins/ level. Mix the two and you can avoid one really sticky situation per encounter without having to leave the encounter entirely.
Inconstant Location + Divert Teleport: Inconstant Location, once set up (standard action to manifest) gives the Legionnaire access to a swift action teleport. The normal range of this teleport is limited to the length of his movement speed, but with the Gingerbread Man using Divert Teleport as an immediate action, this range increased to well over 100 feet. Best of all, this doesn't use up any of their standard or move actions.
Now for a little stunt. We posit that the following trick is legal and within a high possibility of success; I give you:
How to kill a CR 57 Hecatoncheires
(AKA: Night-Crawler style Uber Teleportation Spring-Attacking)
The Chrono-Legionaire has several attack options, which I will present below:
The Boss-killing attack Routine
Works well against opponents with high AC and extremely dangerous offensive capabilities. For this technique to function to its maximal effect, a large combat area is needed. All power point costs are reduced by 1 because of the Torc of Power Preservation worn.
Assume the following already active buffs:
>> Assimilate (used bag of tricks to summon a small animal and toasted it) less than an hour in advance. (lasts 1 hour) [16 pp]
>>Teleport trigger (lasts 20 hours) [12 pp]
1.
-- Swift Action Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Precognition Offensive (19 pp), gain psionic focus, swift action manifest another Temporal Acceleration (19 pp)
>Divert Teleport
>>Apply oil of bless weapon, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Schism, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Control Body, solicit psi-crystal, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
--STD action: Prescience Offensive (19 pp),
--Full Attack Charge the foe: Leap Attack, Power attack all 17 BAB, Expend Focus for deep impact
--Schismed STD action: dimension door away [6 pp]
2.
--Mental Schismed STD action: Dimension Swap
--Mental Immediate action: Divert Teleport to within 10 feet of Hecatoncheires
--Ready Mental Regular STD action dimension door away (upon completion of charge or upon receiving a successful attack)
--Mental Move action: regain focus
--Mental Free Action Expend Focus (for deep impact)
--Physical Charge (power attacking, leap attacking, jumping the whole way (10 feet) with no running start).
>>Readied action triggered, d-door away.
Rinse and Repeat #2 until the foe is dead. (You have 20 rounds before schism runs out).
Why does this sequence work? With assimilate our initiative modifier goes up to +9, which is just 1 under the Heca's initiative bonus. I think it's fair to say that whomever wins is initiative is primarily determined by a die roll. If all else fails, we have a teleport trigger in place that will whisk us to safety at the first sign of danger. We'll just try again in a few rounds. After everything starts rolling we begin the TP in TP out attack sequence. We'll always be able to TP outside the Heca's charging range (which is 200 feet). Every round we have a readied dimension door prepared against his possible readied action that he might have to attack us. So, as long as we have a clear area (of 200+ feet), we'll never get touched by the beast. As you can see below, we deal enough damage (with a high enough probability of success) to take him out in under 10 rounds.
Attack bonuses:
Great Sword: +32 [17 BAB + 2 charging + 13 INT + 9* Enhancement + 7 insight -17 power attack + 1 competance] (We need to roll a 2 or better to hit him -- a one automatically fails anyways) [Since we have 5% failure rate, we assume that one fails. So we assume 9 successful attacks in 10 rounds]
*Because of outsider & mage bane the enhancement is +9, making this an effective epic weapon. Given that it is already cold-iron and bless weapon makes it good, we now bypass his DR.
Damage Calculations:
Sword: 2x[2d6 Base + 9 enhancement 17*4 Power Attack + 8 insight + 13 INT] + 4d6 (mage and outsider bane)
Total Average (assuming all hits): 224 on one attack per round. With the Heca's 50 Fast Healing, that's only 174 net damage per round. Given that the Heca has 1048 hitpoints, we can take him out in 6 successful attacks. (With one assumed failure this takes 7 rounds).
Each round (after the initial buffing round) we must spend 8 (6 for d-door + 2 for swap) power points per round. So over 7 rounds we spend 56 power points (plus the initial 108 pp counting the assimilate and divert teleport). So, all in all, we spend 164 pp (under half our total pp for the day) to kill a monster which is nearly three times our CR. Given the right environment I feel confident that we have at least a 75 to 90% chance of success the first time around, with almost a 0% chance of death.
The What Ifs:
That's a lot of buffs. What if they somehow get hosed?
Although it's expensive, we can maintain a temporal acceleration for as many rounds as we need to rebuff with temporal iteration. This increases buffing costs by 8 pp per round, but it can be done. This is really only economical for extending temporal acceleration 1 round, however. If one wants to extend the acceleration for more than one round nested accelerations become more economical (15 pp for a nested 2 round acceleration as opposed to 16 pp for two temporal iterations, 19 pp for a nested 3 round acceleration as opposed to 24 for 3 temporal iterations.) Bottom-line: the Chrono-Legionaire can re-buff at the drop of a hat.
What if the Hecatoncheires summons his buddy?
More XP for us. The Hecatoncheires is Huge, meaning there's a decent space we can move around in where he grants us full cover against his brother's attacks. We kill the first, 'port away to safety, reset the necessary buffs (the bless weapon oil, most importantly) and 'port back to restart the routine and kill Heca number 2. Failing that, just port away and come back when Heca 2's summon ends.
What if the Hecatoncheires uses his Fly spell-like ability?
Psionic Fly is on the Legionnaire's powers known list. In fact, moving to three dimensions makes the summoning ability of the hecatoncheires less useful, as now there is that much more space in which to manuver where we are covered. There's no restriction on teleporting to a point in open space.
What if both Heca's ready actions?
It remains that careful teleportation placement means only one can target us at a time.
Divert Teleport says you must have studied the area carefully.
You didn't read all of the power description. It also says that being very familiar will suffice. When one reads the teleport spell description one can readily see that merely seeing the target location qualifies us to be "very familiar."
Massive Area Effects - and by massive I mean stuff like Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, thankfully banned) or Eruption (Serpent Kingdoms). When we've got an area of square miles, you might be lucky enough to catch the Legionnaire by surprise.
Karmic Strike - this annoying feat can give foes reactive attacks against the Legionnaire beyond what readied defenses can provide. Still, the Legionnaire does a lot more damage in a single hit than the Karmic Strike likely will, and they still have to hit the AC of 44 (or 56 if properly buffed).
Mobs with tons of readied actions - since Synchronicity is banned, this is the only way to get enough readied actions to possibly target the Legionnaire. It may be difficult for more than a few to notice and attack the Legionnaire while he guerilla bombs them with Energy Burst, and they still have to hit that AC.
Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock - these teleportation-negating spells are the Legionnaire's Achilles heel. Fortunately, you can't 'port into a D-Locked area by accident. Dimensional Anchor is more dangerous, offering no saving throw and requiring the Legionnaire to dispel his own buffs in order to remove it. The Legionnaire can supply his own dispels and pump them off in rapid order if need be. The best defense would be using the Legionnaire's Psionic Fly and a good impacting magebane charge to kill any threatening caster in one good smack.
Simply put, the reason this guy is the ultimate gish is because of his adaptability in any campaign setting. If one removes the valorous weapon (which isn't even necessary to kill the Heca, but speeds up the process greatly), then this build is non-setting specific. Furthermore, this build does not need persistant magic to be a viable gish. At twelfth level he gains the ability to make deep impact leap attacks, which means he's quite a capable in melee early on. This is a build that is themed on teleportive mobility and the Chrono-Legionnaire delivers on this promise. Not only is the Chrono-legionnaire capable of teleporting himself, but he can teleport his enemies, his enemies equipment, or his allies.
Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc: Against mind-flayers the Chrono-Legionnaire is incredible, due to his levels in Illithid Slayer. Beyond that, the chrono-legionnaire's leap attack routine and breach power resistance enables him to bypass many of the defenses which are common among Abberations & magical beasts (namely natural armor and SR). Furthermore, the Chrono-Legionnaire is immune to mind-affecting effects (while focused), which renders him invulnerable to many of the more insidious offensive capabilities of Abberations. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.
Constructs: The difficulty of constructs is their immunity to most magical forms of attack and their high physical prowess. Enter leap attack & deep impact once again. Due to the typically low touch AC of constructs, our intrepid hero can make quick mince-meat of his automaton foes.
Dragons: Dragon claim a high mobility and great physical prowess. They lack good touch AC, however, which makes them vulnerable to the Chrono-Legionnaire's deep impact trick. The chrono-legionnaire claims a higher mobility than even the fastest dragons, enabling him to keep outside of their range. Make no mistake, dragons are potent foes. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here. The Legionnaire has flight as well, in case the dragon tries to go aerial, and breach power resistance to finish things if necessary.
Elementals/Outsiders: Elementals are not a real problem, but outsiders are reknown for their deadly SLAs, energy resistances, and physical prowess. Here celestial conduit is a nice power, as it offers D6 per pp damage and the damage type is "positive energy." Deep impact + leap attack is still effective against most of these foes, as is evidenced by the Chrono-Legionnaire's ability to take out the grand-daddy of all outsiders: the Hecatoncheires. The magebane & evil outsider bane weapon enhancements are quite helpful here.
Undead: The Chrono-Legionnaire does not rely on critical hits or necromantic effects, so undead have little defense against the majority of the Chrono-Legionnaire's tactics. Furthermore celestial conduit deals 1d6+2 damage per pp against undead, making it an attractive means to their destruction. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.
Traps: If a trap is suspected, the chrono-legionnaire typically teleports past it. This is admittedly a weak point in this build. However, readied dimensions swaps and immediate action diverts mean that the Gingerbread Man can scout ahead yet be immediately pulled back to safety in case of emergency
Political Intrigue & Diplomatic Maneuvers: Despite his mediocre charisma, the Chrono-Legionnaire has maxed out his ranks in diplomacy and can deal with moderately sticky diplomatic situations. He also has the Detect Hostile Intent power on his list, which helps ... well... detect hostiles. This can be ever so invaluable for quick diplomatic decision making. He's no diplomancer & knows when to make way for the party bard. That said, he can escape awkward situations incredibly fast.
A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord: I believe the anti-Heca trick shown above is an adequate display of the Chrono-Legionnaire's prowess against single opponents.
Mobs: Energy burst offers a 40' radius burst centered on the manifester and deals d6 energy damage of any type of energy (specified upon manifestation) against any foes in that area. Can't ask for much better area damage than that. The saving throw can be made to be a fort or ref save, and can be enhanced by chaotic surge (described above in class abilities of note).
Overwhelming Odds: No one can get out of dodge like the Chrono-Legionnaire. An XP-free contingent teleport (teleport trigger) is key here. Dimension door and divert teleport are also good means of getting out fast. Anticipatory Strike also means an immediate action "I take next round's turn NOW" when he really needs to leave.
Meeting Constraints:
The Optimization Constraints:
Melee Damage or Non-Magical Ranged Damage Capability:
The leap attack + deep impact routine is a good way to meet this constraint. With 17 BAB, the chrono-legionnaire is quite capable in normal comabat as well.
Defensive Capability: Immunity to mind-affecting effects is nice, his AC is over 40 without applying any buffs and can go into the high 50s with buffs.
Magical Offensive Capability: 9th level powers, 360 pp. He's not as good as a straight psion, but he's pretty darn good.
Tactical Advantage: Telekentic maneuvers (via the power), diverted dimensional twisters, and retrieve make this guy quite capable of befuddling and disabling his foes at a range. Nothing says ownage quite like being damaged and teleported over 300' feet in the same round.
Party Benefit: Psionics is not reknown for buffing others, but dimension swap and some of the tactical maneuvers above make the Chrono-Legionnaire a good guy to have around in combat. He's also able to serve as the party tracker with maxed out ranks in survival and the track feat. In a party with the Legionnaire, a party member is wherever he needs to be when he needs to be. Forcecage the fighter? No problem, he's out on the Legionnaire's turn without skipping a beat. The casters in the party will love how the Legionnaire reduces the PR of enemies too.
High Initiative: 2 + dex. Not astounding, but not bad.
Skillz: 186 skills is pretty decent. He's able to cover all the necessary bases and have some left over for things like maxed out tracking and diplomacy.
Endurance: Not the strongest ability our character has, but I feel confident that he can handle 3-4 encounters per day and still kick butt -- provided these encounters aren't CR 57 Hecas...
Playable: The only combat weak area is the first six levels, however, during this time he is a quite functional psion. 12th level and beyond is where this build really excels.
Minimal Buffs: AMF is not good for this guy as he can't use deep impact in an AMF, but he's still got 17 BAB and decent physical stats. He wouldn't fight a barbarian in an AMF if he could help it.
Additional Restrictions:
Powerful Magic: Able to manifest 9th level powers.
High Base Attack: 17 BAB by 20th level.
No ASF: Powers are not subject to ASF.
High Armor Class: Without buffs he has 44 AC, which meets the greater than or equal to 40 constraint.
High Damage: He can deal over 200 damage reliably against anything with a touch AC below 34 for at least 40 rounds per day while also teleporting in and out each round (with a TP range of 300+ feet).
No Form Altering: Just say no. He doesn't even have access to such abilities.
Conclusion:
Psi-Gish are fairly limited in their abilities when compared to Arcane-based gish, but I hope this entry has demonstrated some of the unique capabilities that are available to psionics. First and foremost is the incredibly powerful and versatile control body + schism + solicit psi-crystal trick, which is employed here. Nothing is better than taking a full round attack, 2 standard actions, and a mental move-action every round when the going gets tough.
Books Used:
XPH: Slayer, Nomad, & most powers & feats
PHB
DMG: Most magic items
MiniHB: Belt of Magnificence
UE: Valorous weapon enhancement
CPsi: Anarchic Initiate, various powers
What I'm really worried about is CoDzilla. CoDzilla requires no multiclassing or anything outside core to be effective, unlike the abovementioned powerbuild which most DMs are unlikely to allow.
Perhaps we should devote one thread for each of the eleven core base classes in Pathfinder?
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Do character builds that are obviously created without the permission of a DM (and likely never leveled in an actual campaign) count as examples of balance problems?
I call these Vacuum Characters. They exist only because the social/mediation portion of the game isn't present.
For example, would any of you allow that Illithid Slayer character in your game? I certainly wouldn't. If no one would, is he truly overpowered, or just theoretically overpowered?
I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but when discussing broken builds, you must also assume that there's someone reasonable and intelligent at the head of your gaming table. If not, then all the fixes in the world aren't going to balance the game.
Director of Brand Strategy
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What I'm really worried about is CoDzilla. CoDzilla requires no multiclassing or anything outside core to be effective, unlike the abovementioned powerbuild which most DMs are unlikely to allow.
Perhaps we should devote one thread for each of the eleven core base classes in Pathfinder?
I think this will happen as part of the scheduled playtest. We've been on Races & Ability Scores now for almost a month, and when Jason gets back from England next week, I imagine we'll move on to classes.
But threads involving long posts like that just a few above this one won't get read. Plus it involves tons of stuff that is non-OGL and thus can't and probably won't be fixed by Paizo. I think we should try to keep any stuff that Paizo can't fix out of the discussion for simplicity's sake.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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What I'm really worried about is CoDzilla. CoDzilla requires no multiclassing or anything outside core to be effective, unlike the abovementioned powerbuild which most DMs are unlikely to allow.
Perhaps we should devote one thread for each of the eleven core base classes in Pathfinder?
Also, some of the issues with this have been addressed already in Beta. For example Divine Power is not as powerful now, nor is wild shape, both of which are some of the contributing factors for the CoDzilla issues. There might be more needed, but it's in the works, and to make further changes, we need more playtesting of the current (beta) ruleset on these issues, with specific examples of where the problems are.
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I am not convinced this is broken.
Sure, it's overpowered. But nothing that would break a game if the GM is aware of it.
For example: This character just screams "shoot me with your ranged weapon".
Here I was thinking "+5 Reflex save? Yeah, you're real tough."
This doesn't seem broken to me at all (or, at least, no more broken than any spiked-chain fighter). Just a well-designed fighter.
3.5 Elf Chain Fighter
Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 3Combat Expertise (-5 to hit for +5 AC)
Can't be taken. Int 13 is the prerequisite in 3.5 and PRPG. An even if it could be taken, you now swap out your Int mod from attack to AC.
Now only a +2 to CMB for tripping. If it mattered. But since you don't meet the Pre-reqs for taking the feat (Int 13, Combat Expertise), it doesn't.
[quote=]Deft Opportunist (+4 to hit with AoO)
Monkey Grip (use large weapon at -2 to hit)
Expert Tactician (if you hit with an AoO you and all allies gain +2 hit and damage)Class Features
Exotic Reach (can take AoO against opponents with Cover)
Trip Attack (+2 to trip attempts)
Flurry of Strikes (-2 to hit but +1 attack)
Not OGL, so nothing Paizo can do.
Even if we just hand-wave a higher Int, this character isn't really broken. Just as long as the rules are followed (can't trip a prone target, etc) we have a fighter who's good at fighting humanoid foes of his own size or smaller. Larger foes, especially with more than two legs, are going to laugh off his best trick.
Well, tripping is a lot harder in PRPG. Don't expect it to work as often as before.
But most importantly -- Improved Trip doesn't give you a free attack after a trip, so it's much, much weaker than the 3.5 version.
Build no sane DM would allow in the same room as his game...The only thing this build proves is that the game needs enforcement of the multi-classing rules and a XP penalty may not be enough. Well, that and that the people who do this have very... different perspectives. 12th level is low? Epic power weapons? Ridiculous amounts of multi-classing? The character is broken solely because the person who wrote it set out to break the game. If this was something a player could stumble into and that the DM wouldn't call shenanigans on, I might be concerned.
I don't see what it has to do with "multiclassing issues". Multiclassing XP penalties are an old sacred cow that bugs the game. Classes are tools to a character concept, not character concepts themselves. To gimp multiclassing only shoehorn PCs into extremely narrow sets of abilities.
Beside, it isn't realist to pretend all adventurers follow the same templates. People do not designate themselves as "accountant" or "secretary", nor do adventurers write "Fighter" or "Rogue" on their business cards. (That is, it has some humourous potential) Classes are only power progressions, not identities.
To everyone: To complain about the validity of a broken build in an actual game is stupid. Those builds aren't meant to be used, but are intellectual exercices. Its a fact that if someone try to include one in his game, he'll get shot. No need to bring it one more time, and you aren't a better person for it.
The build neceros posted is an actual broken build. Using it in a game force the DM to completely review chalenges and make all other players extremely vulnerable. Always remember 'broken" means unplayable in a normal game.
Not to mention, newer DMs may not see the issue with a character until it hits that "broken" stage, at which point they're going to scramble to figure out how to fix the issue, or go into knee-jerk "omgbanz" anything remotely resembling said character (whether there is any possibility of breaking the game at all or not) in all future games because of it. Just because a good DM would say "No" once they realize what's going on, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed in the first place. After all, just because you can mop it up afterward is no excuse to continue to use an overflowing toilet and not fix it.
I don't see what it has to do with "multiclassing issues". Multiclassing XP penalties are an old sacred cow that bugs the game. Classes are tools to a character concept, not character concepts themselves. To gimp multiclassing only shoehorn PCs into extremely narrow sets of abilities.Because effective and fair limits on multi-classing would prevent that kind of crap.
No. Multiclassing isn't unbalancing. Classes are. Most of the time, multiclassed characters suck, yet nobody whine.
But at the moment a great multiclassed build is out, crap start flying.Fix the classes, then get rid of multiclassing penalties.
What does that have to do with anything? People label themselves like that all the time, and effective controls on that sort of multi-classing do not cram every character down the same path. They just stop people from doing crap like that.
Beside, it isn't realist to pretend all adventurers follow the same templates. People do not designate themselves as "accountant" or "secretary", nor do adventurers write "Fighter" or "Rogue" on their business cards. (That is, it has some humourous potential) Classes are only power progressions, not identities.
I was only putting emphasis on my first paragraph. Now, do you seriously believe people define themselves as "a secretary"? It might be your job, but it isn't your identity.
If they're just "mental exercises" that no one would play or allow to be played, why should the developers waste time dealing with them? No one stumbles into these "optimized" builds. People set out to break the game, and when someone wants to break a game they will no matter how much effort the designers make to stop it. So they should focus on weird and likely to occur accidents like two decent feats being overwhelming or a spell being to strong or weak for it's...
To everyone: To complain about the validity of a broken build in an actual game is stupid. Those builds aren't meant to be used, but are intellectual exercices. Its a fact that if someone try to include one in his game, he'll get shot. No need to bring it one more time, and you aren't a better person for it.The build neceros posted is an actual broken build. Using it in a game force the DM to completely review chalenges and make all other players extremely vulnerable. Always remember 'broken" means unplayable in a normal game.
The OP asked for broken builds, then people come and yell proudly that "no sane DM would accept this". I say d'uh! Sure, no sane DM will, but those aren't going in an actual game. I'm just tired of the smart-asses.
Multi-classing is not fine. Personal opinion aside, one cannot make a fighter-mage as is without being seriously lower in power than the straight classes. This. Is. Not. Fine.
Giving up vertical power for horizontal power is alright. Specializing in lieu of generalizing is fine. However, losing power outright does not work.
The build posted above was asked for, so I gave it. I've used a build like this before in a game, but it wasn't exact. Those class combinations do not require any stretch of the imagination. Illithid Slayer directly asks for a Ranger/Psion make up as the requirements. The thing people have issue with is the fact that to gain said power you have to come at the class in such a certain matter with time-required commitments and before hand knowledge.
It's not broken, but it sure is ridiculous. Nothing wrong with that.
Exotic Weapon Master, as stated in the first post, is not OGL. Lastly, psionics is OGL.
OGL:
XPH: Slayer, Nomad, & most powers & feats
PHB
DMG: Most magic items
Not OGL:
MiniHB: Belt of Magnificence
UE: Valorous weapon enhancement
CPsi: Anarchic Initiate, various powers
As you can see the vast majority of material is core.
Do character builds that are obviously created without the permission of a DM (and likely never leveled in an actual campaign) count as examples of balance problems?
I call these Vacuum Characters. They exist only because the social/mediation portion of the game isn't present.
For example, would any of you allow that Illithid Slayer character in your game? I certainly wouldn't. If no one would, is he truly overpowered, or just theoretically overpowered?
I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but when discussing broken builds, you must also assume that there's someone reasonable and intelligent at the head of your gaming table. If not, then all the fixes in the world aren't going to balance the game.
I agree totally.
Same goes for all the other broken builds. Too many rail-roaded DM's out there losing grip of their games. Grow some balls and say NO!
STOP. There is no such thing as a broken character that's blown 2 feats on Monkey Grip and Weapon Focus. Likewise, there is no such thing as a broken character that requires Strongarm Bracers just to function. Thank you, that is all.
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In one campaign I ran, one of my players wanted to play a “cat folk” I was a bit dubious, but, if you are playing in someone else’s home, you are sometimes a little more lenient with your host. My friend put together a “Cat folk” rogue, with a spiked chain, who had improved trip, and combat reflexes. I think with a 20 dex the character had 5 attacks of opportunity a round.
I was going to introduce a re accruing villain, and yes, he was monologing; I was forking over some exposition, when my friend pulled a “gamers” on me. No sooner then the villain opened his mouth, and my friend had his character trip the villain and the whack him a second time. When the villain tried to stand up, my friend announced he was taking his attack of opportunity to trip the villain again. The whole time he was applying his sneak attack damage, for the follow-up whack after the trip, and the attack of opportunity provoked when the villain tried to stand up, and the follow up attack when he was knocked back down again.
I suppose the only good thing about this irritating encounter was that the PCs never found out who this guy was. He was killed before he could say a thing. They never knew they did in the villain I was planning do introduce. Oh the other thing was that it got me to look up the rules concerning Attacks of Opportunity, Standing up, and more importantly Tripping and Sneak Attacking. I realized that the rules did not allow some one to apply sneak attack damage on an attack of opportunity. Sneak attack damage is only added when the victim is flanked or denied his dex bonus to ac.
When the party reached 6 level soon after, my friend asked me if he could buy a 15’ spiked chain. I asked why, and he told me about this cool feat called monkey grip that he took. He was looking forward to a 15’ reach with his spiked chain. I wasn’t. I told him that any thing outside of the three core rulebooks he would have to ask my permission to take. this had been my policy the whole time. He blinked, I then told him I was disallowing monkey grip and that he would have to choose another feat. I then took a look at his character sheet ( he asked me earlier if he could use some sort of Exp buyoff thing from the unearthed arcane which I read then allowed, so he bought of his +1 level adjustment) I realized that he had combat expertise, improved trip, and combat reflexes but no exotic wpn spiked chain. I made him drop one of his feats. He chose to drop combat reflexes, so he had exotic weapon proficiency, combat expertise, and improved trip.
Needless to say he was less then pleased. For our next adventure, the party was working their way through a maze, and yes they found Minotaur. My friend was getting ready to trip the chief Minotaur when his luck turned. He lost imitative to the Minotaur chief (whom I gave 2 levels of fighter to make him cr 6). The Minotaur chief, then charged the hapless cat folk thief. The first thing it did was to gore the unfortunate cat folk for 4d6+4. Then the Minotaur use improved sunder to the spiked chain. The chain shattered. Then to add injury to insult, the Minotaur attacked again with its oversized great axe. . The look of surprise on my friends face was worth it. I had shattered his characters chain, and I dropped his 6 level cat folk rogue form a healthy 35 hps to 5 hps.
His character withdrew and ran.
He was a bit ticked off and accused me of picking on his character because he made a good combo. I pointed out that the reason why his character was working so well was because he had an extra feat, and was applying the sneak attack in situations he shouldn’t have. The heated discussion ended up in a “whatever’. Things got patched up eventually.
So for every DM facing a fighter with a spiked chain, I recommend a charging Minotaur with the improved sunder feat.
Just out of curiosity Crusader of Logic, since the definition of "broken" is often a subjective one, what is your definition of a broken character?
Your player is stupid and a cheater. Stupid for taking Monkey Grip, a cheater for putting the wrong trip rules past you. He can trip, follow up with an attack, then AoO when the guy gets up. He's attacking prone then. You cannot trip someone who is already down. By the way, you do not get more reach by using a bigger weapon. He traded 2 to hit and a feat for 2 damage... Except PA would have given him 2 > 4.
Also, Combat Reflexes is 1 + Dex, aka 6.
You aren't innocent either. Using Improved Sunder on a melee is just being a sadistic DM. I mean really. They're already walking on a gimp leg and an amputee, picking through trash piles to eagerly wolf down worm invested apples amidst mountains of rotting non edible materials best left to the imagination. Don't kick the poor guy in the crotch while he's down. That's just completely uncalled for.
Broken is any theoretical optimization exercise such as Pun-Pun, in addition to optimized Tier 1s and sometimes Tier 2s. For example, a Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage is broken. A Wizard alone is just strong. He's toeing the line, but not crossing it. A Druid/Planar Shepherd is horribly broken, whereas a plain Druid is merely broken, and a Druid mixed with *insert anything else* is weaker than just staying Druid.
It is pretty much impossible for anything Tier 3 or below to be broken no matter what you do. Crusader for example? He can get to be pretty solid, and fairly versatile. He will never break.
Fighters are Tier 5. Why do so many people freak out about Spiked Chains? Aside from misunderstandings, or the you don't get nice things mentality.
Fighters are Tier 5. Why do so many people freak out about Spiked Chains? Aside from misunderstandings, or the you don't get nice things mentality.
Fluffwise, I'd guess because it doesn't their concept of "medieval fantasy with swords and sorcery." A spiked chain is definitely a very exotic weapon compared to a longsword or a rapier.
Mechanics-wise, I'd guess because a spiked chain actually can get ridiculous compared to other melee characters. Of course, this feeds back into the "fighter doesn't get things" category when a DM sees a spiked-chain Lockdown character, compares him to a Monkey-Gripped SaB build, and decides to ban spiked chains, Expansion, Improved Trip, et al.
Perhaps. But seeing as his buddy can mumble jibberish for about 3-4 seconds, and create a Fireball roughly the size of an average house as one of his weakest tricks... Is using an exotic weapon really that big a deal?
That, and Swashbucklers as an archetype just don't work in D&D, especially off a Fighter base. Longswords are a little better, but not much.
Edit: Odd. I can't say gobble de **** here, presumably because of the alternate definition of the censored word.
Perhaps. But seeing as his buddy can mumble jibberish for about 3-4 seconds, and create a Fireball roughly the size of an average house as one of his weakest tricks... Is using an exotic weapon really that big a deal?
My thoughts/point exactly.
It's unfortunate that you would have an immature player as that one.
You don't have to have Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield a chain. You get a -4 to attack with it, however.
If the villain was flat-footed (Not in battle, or is after the rogue in initiative) then sneak attack was warranted.
Regardless, you should have just talked to him about his disturbance. If he got an attitude because he thought you were picking on him then it's time to move away from his house.
As a DM you have to be heavy handed, sometimes.
I do not know if anyone noticed but that Chrono Legionare is not broken because of multiclassing but because of Prestige Classes.
3.5e allows broken builds only because of broken PRC combinations.
I dare someone to make me a broken build (that triping fighter is not a broken build) without using PRCs?!
I do not know if anyone noticed but that Chrono Legionare is not broken because of multiclassing but because of Prestige Classes.
3.5e allows broken builds only because of broken PRC combinations.
I dare someone to make me a broken build (that triping fighter is not a broken build) without using PRCs?!
I'll match that one and raise it 2.
Cleric 20.
Druid 20.
Wizard 20.
PRC combos exist for the primary purpose of making everyone else not suck. See, all the caster PRCs are either work taking all the way, or pretty much irrelevant so they aren't using combos, they're just completing 1. The others? They're all over the place. There might be some worth completing somewhere, but others? Dip material only.
Uh? He's got two PrCs. Most builds I see now days that are worth anything have way more.
Illithid Slayer: The entire point of the build, and one of the only PRCs that increase Manifester levels and BAB.
Anarchic: Just a good class to have. Nothing broken about it.
Try Wizard/Sorcerer Ultimate Magus: That stuff is broken.
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Crusader of logic
“Your player is stupid and a cheater. Stupid for taking Monkey Grip, a cheater for putting the wrong trip rules past you. He can trip, follow up with an attack, then AoO when the guy gets up. He's attacking prone then. You cannot trip someone who is already down. By the way, you do not get more reach by using a bigger weapon. He traded 2 to hit and a feat for 2 damage... Except PA would have given him 2 > 4.
Also, Combat Reflexes is 1 + Dex, aka 6.
You aren't innocent either. Using Improved Sunder on a melee is just being a sadistic DM. I mean really. They're already walking on a gimp leg and an amputee, picking through trash piles to eagerly wolf down worm invested apples amidst mountains of rotting non edible materials best left to the imagination. Don't kick the poor guy in the crotch while he's down. That's just completely uncalled for.
Broken is any theoretical optimization exercise such as Pun-Pun, in addition to optimized Tier 1s and sometimes Tier 2s. For example, a Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage is broken. A Wizard alone is just strong. He's toeing the line, but not crossing it. A Druid/Planar Shepherd is horribly broken, whereas a plain Druid is merely broken, and a Druid mixed with *insert anything else* is weaker than just staying Druid.
It is pretty much impossible for anything Tier 3 or below to be broken no matter what you do. Crusader for example? He can get to be pretty solid, and fairly versatile. He will never break.
Fighters are Tier 5. Why do so many people freak out about Spiked Chains? Aside from misunderstandings, or the you don't get nice things mentality.”
Crusaders of logic, thank you for taking the time to reply to my question. Hindsight is always perfect. And yes I will admit I made two mistakes. First I should have been more familiar with the rules, so I could have prevented the sneak attacking spiked chain-tripping mess from making a mess of things. Secondly, I should not have let my irritation get the better of me. I went after one of my players.
Thank you for taking the time to explain to me what “broken” means to you. I am not familiar with Pun Pun. I have come across this reference on the Wizards of the Coast boards, but I don’t know who or what Pun- Pun is. Thank you for also providing some reference points as well. I understand that a “wizard is toeing the line but not breaking it.” Where as a Wizard + particular prestige class would be crossing the line so to speak. Where does the “shadow craft mage” come from? I would like to read about what class features the “Shadow Craft Mage” gets, so I can have a sense of where the Wizard is toeing the line but the Wizard+shadow craft mage is breaking it. I have looked up the Shadowcaster in the Tome of magic, the Shadow adept in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and I have not been able to find this class in either the Complete Arcane nor Complete Mage books. Perhaps I have missed something.
You also mention that a Druid is broken. I have read about a lot of the wile shape complaints. Currently I am playing an Elvin druid in a Rise of the Rune lords campaign. This is my first time ever playing a druid. Currently we are near the end of the Skin saw murders. I have just gotten to 5th level. There have been instances where my character has been very useful, and other instances where my character has been useless. This character doesn’t seem “over powered” to me. I am sure I have yet to figure out all of the nifty things I can do. I am still enjoying the novelty of turning into a wild animal such as a hawk or leopard, and the fun of using an entangle spell in a corn field, to entrap my enemies, while using call lightning to finish them off. I am sure I will have fun figuring out more little tricks as the game goes on.
Now you mention 5 Tiers. Presumably this is a means of sorting various character classes. I am guessing the different tiers are related to the characters reliance on either melee combat at one end of the spectrum and magic at the other end of the spectrum.
Would a tier 1 be a Wizard Sorcerer, Druid Shaman?
A Tier 3 Is that a Bard? Paladin Ranger?
A Tier 1 would that be a fighter and a Rogue perhaps.
Now you mention a Crusader. While I have not seen someone play a crusader, we have had people play sword sages. We watched them run circles around our player handbook characters. I think I had a Halfling wizard, and another friend had some sort of Froggie race from the planar handbook, who was a rogue. And we also had someone playing a druid. Perhaps we did not understand the rules entirely, but we watched this character “Kaibash” a half orc barbarian/ sword sage, kill things efficiently, and with the “desert wind “ style, detonate things with fire magic, on a more regular basis then my mage. For me the Jury is still out on the Tome of battle. I am not sure if it is broken, or if we simply did not understand the rules and how to apply them.
I can understand why people freak out about spiked chains. They are I think one of the most versatile weapons in the game. Now with a better understanding of the trip rules, I think they can be easier to manage.
To sum up, Thanks for taking the time to answer. And I am curious, what is the distinguishing thing you are using to sort character classes into their “tiers” and what classes would fit in the 5 tiers, so I can have and Idea. Thanks.
Depends. Ranger 1/Psion 6/Slayer 9/Sanctified Mind 4 is a fairly standard psy gish build. But seriously. Just have a look. You'll see.
Thank you for taking the time to explain to me what “broken” means to you. I am not familiar with Pun Pun. I have come across this reference on the Wizards of the Coast boards, but I don’t know who or what Pun- Pun is. Thank you for also providing some reference points as well. I understand that a “wizard is toeing the line but not breaking it.” Where as a Wizard + particular prestige class would be crossing the line so to speak. Where does the “shadow craft mage” come from? I would like to read about what class features the “Shadow Craft Mage” gets, so I can have a sense of where the Wizard is toeing the line but the Wizard+shadow craft mage is breaking it. I have looked up the Shadowcaster in the Tome of magic, the Shadow adept in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, and I have not been able to find this class in either the Complete Arcane nor Complete Mage books. Perhaps I have missed something.
Pun-Pun is a means of getting every single one of your stats to infinity, doable at low levels.
Shadowcraft mages are in Races of Stone. Mainly it is the illusions becoming more real than the real thing, which means being able to do more than completely real spells such as Shadow Miracles out of low level spell slots.
Tome of Magics Shadowcaster is incredibly weak, and if the Shadow Adept is the one I think it is that's just a dip to get access to the Shadow Weave.
Druids end up broken because Wild Shape automatically makes them at least as good at meleeing as the melee guys (better with buffs) while still being able to cast spells, etc. Also, the Animal Companion alone can completely replace another melee guy.
Desert Wind is the weakest martial adept school because it is 1: Blasting and 2: Fire based. He was actually fairly weak because of this. Though smart swordsages are Tier 3. If the Wizard was remotely outclassed by this guy, he was probably doing nothing but blasting himself which automatically lowers him a minimum of 2 Tiers (to Tier 3) and more likely to 4 or 5.
There are 6 Tiers of classes.
Tier 1 is defined as being able to do absolutely everything, often better than those who specialize in it and win encounters with very little thought and effort. This Tier contains the Big Five and only the Big Five. That's Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Artificer, Archivist.
Tier 2 can do anything Tier 1 can, just not all of it. For example Sorcerers are in this category because while they can cast anything a Wizard can, they cannot cast everything a Wizard can. Likewise for Favored Souls and Clerics, etc. I forget the complete list here.
Tier 3 is defined as doing one thing exceptionally well and still being relevant when that thing isn't needed or many things competently but not as good as a specialist. Tier 3s occasionally outright win an encounter, but it's not nearly as big of a deal when they do. This group includes all 3 martial adepts, Bards, Duskblades, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers and many others.
Tier 4 is defined as doing one thing well but often useless when it isn't called for or many things half decently. Rogues, Barbarians, and Rangers go here along with others.
Tier 5 is defined as only capable of doing one thing and not even that well, so unfocused they cannot master anything, or can do one thing really well but that one thing is often not required. Has trouble shining in any encounter. Fighters and Monks go here, along with Paladins.
Tier 6 can essentially be defined as useless. They cannot even shine in their own area of expertise, much less anywhere else. Even if highly optimized, they won't be impressive. This just contains the NPC classes except the Expert, who is actually Tier 5. Yup, Expert = Fighter. It also includes the CW Samurai since that's just a nerfed Fighter.
Post complete.
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Necros, I think we both were at fault in that situation. I was irritated by my player and I went after him. Hence the Charging Minataur with the Improved sunder. My friend, was cheating, He was using the spiked chain as if his character was proficient in, when he had not spent the feat for it, and he was adding the sneak attack damage whenever he was making attacks of opportunity. This was “illegal” according to the rules of the game. Weather he did this knowingly and was trying to get a way with something or it was an honest mistake, I will never be able to figure out. But the end result is that I watch him more closely, and If I am Dming, I don’t go to him for rules advice. We have as a group, rotated houses and Dms etc. things work themselves out.
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Crusader of Logic thanks for the swift reply. Thanks for the description of Pun Pun. I will go look up the shadowcraft mage, now that I know where to find it.
Your points about the druid being broken are well taken. I am just figuring out what Orion, my Elvin druid can do with his wild shape; I have only been able to use it twice. His animal companion Sirrus the wolf, has on many occasions, been able to swing the tide of battle in our favor, by biting tripping and generally tearing our enemies apart. Sirrus however has to be bribed with choice bits of raw steak, after gnawing on ghouls however. It’s a fair trade. The Ghast we faced did send Sirrus running, sickened my character, so he was puking in the corner. I had used up most of my spells, and I was saving four spells slots to use to convert to healing spells via the Spontaneous healer feat. When he could concentrate, he had one card left to play so he wild shaped into a puma, (we used the leopards stats) The Dm was requiring me to make a will save in order to attack the Ghast. (I failed several rounds strait) There was something so repellently wrong about this monstrosity, it took a tremendous amount of effort to overcome the animal instincts of the form I had changed into, and attack. It dint taste good either. During the battle, I did have to change back into human form, and begin using cure spells. In the end we had a fun game and enjoyed the battle.
In the campaign with the Sword sage, I was playing the mage. He was a Halfling mage, named Napoleon Shagwell. I was working towards the Luck stealer prestige class, and I was going to throw some of the Fate Stealer prestige class in as well. The campaign got only to 5th level. We were in the Greyhawk realm called ULL. We were primarily fighting what I think were cultist of Kyuss, and we were fighting mostly mindless undead. I was primarily using Disrupt undead greater, Lifebolt, shroud of undeath, Spawn screen, Command undead (left right and center) and other sundry spells. I probobly could have chosen better spells, but I was interested in trying spells I had not used before.
again thanks for the swift reply and thanks for defining the tiers
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Character Name: The Chrono-Legionaire
I am familiar with this character. It requires you to be "ok" with this:
Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal (Available 15th level): Basically this trick gives the psion one full round of mental actions each round (which he uses to regain focus and manifest powers) and one full round of physical actions each round (which he uses to attack with). It's like a two-for-one deal.
I never would be as a DM. Using control body on yourself from your Psicrystal to gain a "physical action", um, no.
Outside of Bo9S, XPH is uber broken. I hope PF re-does the Psionics handbook and bring their power level down about 10 steps.
So, how have the 5 tier 1 characters been mitigated in power? Psion should be in this group too.
Cleric - This goes for the druid too but why do they have unlimited spell lists? Shouldn't they be limited in their spells known? There are too many supplements and books with cleric (and druid) spells. I am not saying make them as limited as favored souls but give them some limit so that every spell level is not 30+ spells. Possibly, limit it to 10+WIS per level, at least then they have a very broad selection but not "every" spell that always irked me.
Druid - I have always felt wild shape should just be one of the spells Druid has at their disposal. It should be spontaneously cast instead of the animal summoning (or give a choice). At least then their shape changing is limited by spell slots.
Wizard - Modify some over powered spells.
Archivist - not OGL
Artificer - not OGL
Psion - Do something similar to wizard and just modify their powers. The psion is off in two ways: theme, and power level. PF would need to do a lot of soul searching in how they would want to change this.
Elyas: You are using a Druid as a healbot, and the DM is using arbitrary house rules against you. No wonder you are not seeing it. You are also an Elf, which is one of the worst races for being a Druid aside from those that take a Wisdom penalty due to the fact Dex bonuses are not only not even to Con penalties, they become irrelevant when Wild Shaped. In other words, you still take the penalty but don't get the bonus when in animal form.
Psions are Tier 2 because they have a spells known list which they have a very limited ability to change and magic is simply better than psionics. Psions would need to be able to change their powers known every day, and boost a few powers to be Tier 1. The other psychic classes?
Soulknife is Tier 5 because their class feature is 'has a weapon'. Well, everyone has a weapon. Who cares?
Psychic Warriors are Tier 4s. They're workable gishes out of the box, but they aren't great and aren't going to be doing anything exceptional.
Wilders are a dubious Tier 5 due to a very small powers known list and more to the point, they have class features that get worse with levels. I'd call them a Tier 6 personally, but hey.
Despite the various misguided beliefs regarding psionics, it's actually a pretty low priority from a balance perspective.
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Psions are Tier 2 because they have a spells known list which they have a very limited ability to change and magic is simply better than psionics. Psions would need to be able to change their powers known every day, and boost a few powers to be Tier 1. The other psychic classes?
I here you. I think they are solidly at the bottom of 1 or the top of 2 though. Yes they have a limited selection but have expanded knowledge feat which allows them more. Some of their powers are far stronger than comparable wizard powers, hell, many are stronger. :p
I here you. I think they are solidly at the bottom of 1 or the top of 2 though. Yes they have a limited selection but have expanded knowledge feat which allows them more. Some of their powers are far stronger than comparable wizard powers, hell, many are stronger. :pPsions are Tier 2 because they have a spells known list which they have a very limited ability to change and magic is simply better than psionics. Psions would need to be able to change their powers known every day, and boost a few powers to be Tier 1. The other psychic classes?
One feat for one power. Wizards can also take one feat for one spell. So can Sorcerers, and whatever else. One feat for one spell/power is not that great.
Care to elaborate on how they're better? No, blasting powers don't count. Even if they are actually better at blasting they still are not good enough by far because blasting is weak. Besides, you need to massively break the Metamagic cap just to get blasting decent. Wizards can do it if they hyperspecialize (thereby lowering themselves multiple tiers) via taking things like Arcane Thesis and Easy/Practical Metamagic. They also need Incantrix 10. Psions can't do it at all because the Metamagic cap is more rigid for psionics.
The absolute worst thing you can do as a Psion is go nova, which Wizards do as good or better (and you're still screwed in fight 2 on). Every caster can nova, in fact. Even the low tier ones like Warmage.
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Care to elaborate on how they're better? No, blasting powers don't count. Even if they are actually better at blasting they still are not good enough by far because blasting is weak.
One thing about them is that they only need one or two blasting powers because they are so scaleable. The wizard generally needs a blasting power at every level. Psions do not. They are fine with energy stun and energy ball or cone. Heck, mind stab is pretty good d10 per level (will save for 0 damage). Their energy spells are d6+1 and they can choose REF or FORT or if the target has a damage type disadvantage, everything is on the fly. They also have meta-magic madness that they can do.
They have extra action goofyness, They have ways to summon (just one power for comparably summon monster 1-9, They can raise dead, they can heal, they can do wonky save or die/suck effects (One of my favorites: empathic transfer, hostile). They have virtually unlimited HP, albeit, limited by actions and PP. They are highly potent, if you think they are not, fair enough. You seem to know what you are talking about. Look a little closer, you will see all the bugs.
Most Psion powers are Mind Affecting. That's one of the most common immunity tags.
Blasting is still a waste of actions and PP. It is just slightly less so if you increase the damage by 30% (1d6 = 3.5, 1d6+1 = 4.5). The real spells they either don't get, or get weaker versions of. Their defensive abilities are also inferior to a wizard's, though they do come close in some cases. Let's see... negate up to 8 hits for a second level spell which can be from a melee attack/ranged attack/spell that may or may not do HP damage and may or may not do large amounts of said damage, or negate 15 points of damage for the equivalent of a second level power? One look at monsters reveals that's one hit at most, and that's being generous. Look at higher level stuff and you see more of the same.
Psions are Tier 2 because even at their worst, psychics are limited much like sorcerers are. By the way, you must expend your psionic focus to even use a metapsionic feat so even if you were somehow able to reduce costs to the point of manifesting an effectively 20th level power due to stacked metapsionic feats... you can't, because you can't expend your focus more than once. Therefore, they are inferior blasters which are in and of themselves inferior to casters using real spells.
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Most Psion powers are Mind Affecting.
Acyually I would say that is not true. Some of their powers are. But most are not.
Remember they are the masters of:Time
Crystals
Telekinesis
Energy
Prescience
And others
Not just Telepathy.
If a psion only takes mind affecting powers they should be affected by that. Besides this is all a mute point because the best powers are not mind affecting.
Well, I think all their SoD and SoS effects are mind affecting. It's already well established blasting is a trap. If their Tier isn't accurate they're more likely 3s than 1s... though, 9th level powers that matter put them securely in Tier 2.
Let's put it this way. Warmages are Tier 4. Why? Because blasting sucks.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Care to elaborate on how they're better? No, blasting powers don't count. Even if they are actually better at blasting they still are not good enough by far because blasting is weak.One thing about them is that they only need one or two blasting powers because they are so scaleable. The wizard generally needs a blasting power at every level. Psions do not. They are fine with energy stun and energy ball or cone. Heck, mind stab is pretty good d10 per level (will save for 0 damage). Their energy spells are d6+1 and they can choose REF or FORT or if the target has a damage type disadvantage, everything is on the fly. They also have meta-magic madness that they can do.
They have extra action goofyness, They have ways to summon (just one power for comparably summon monster 1-9, They can raise dead, they can heal, they can do wonky save or die/suck effects (One of my favorites: empathic transfer, hostile). They have virtually unlimited HP, albeit, limited by actions and PP. They are highly potent, if you think they are not, fair enough. You seem to know what you are talking about. Look a little closer, you will see all the bugs.
The damaging attacks I saw being most effective were crystal shard (because it was a ranged touch that bypassed DR and SR and had no save) and energy missile (both because you could choose the energy type and the save type you wanted to fit the situation and because it was selective, auto-targeting up to 5 creatures or objects (sonic was particularly handy for this, for zapping weapons, holy symbols, magic items, etc.) in the area without worrying about affecting allies).
But YMMV. As for damage vs. SoS effects, well that's a whole other discussion anyway.
So now you're advocating them as Tier 1 because they can... blast, and destroy their own magical loot. No, your loot. Not the enemies'. Yours. In 3 rounds it will be at least, tops.
I'm going to try to put this nicely. You are horribly wrong.
Outside of Bo9S, XPH is uber broken. I hope PF re-does the Psionics handbook and bring their power level down about 10 steps.
Wait. You judge psionics on behalf of broken combinations (Which exist in all system, a lot less in psionics) and direct damage? Is that supposed to be an argument?
And then, the Tome of battle. Where the hell did you get the idea its broken? I thought we were past that crap.
You're having a knee jerk reaction on two nigh-perfect systems. I just wanna ask; Do you think Warlocks are teh borken too?
Guyr, there are several people around here who think 9d6 damage a round at level 15 is totally broken and use that as a case against Warlocks. Which really, really makes me wonder about everyone else in that game. After all, Rogues are doing 8d6 multiple times (1d6 is from their rapier or short bow), Wizards were doing 9d6 6 levels ago... Fighter is probably doing that much or better if he PAs for a few points and uses a two hander... And this is with no optimization, not trying at all. Of course it goes without saying Wizard doing direct damage = bad Wizard.
At will automatically gets a kneejerk response from those that don't know any better. So does melee getting nice things, psychics, spiked chains... What other hot buttons were there again?
By the way, level 15 Warlocks normally do 7d6.
I have no idea why are blasting mages considered bad. Most other effects are easily stopped with Death Ward/Mind Blank/Freedom of Movement. Then all you got left is blasting spells.
Except for Destruction and Implosion but they are not arcane spells.
I have no idea why are blasting mages considered bad. Most other effects are easily stopped with Death Ward/Mind Blank/Freedom of Movement. Then all you got left is blasting spells.
Except for Destruction and Implosion but they are not arcane spells.
Blasting spell = 1d6/level, dice capped, save for half damage.
PC HP: Minimum of 1d4+2/level (that's more than 1d6), becomes higher as Con booster items become available.
Monster HP: Multiple HD/level, that often are D8s or better, and often come with high and scaling Con.
In other words, blasting scales linearly. HP scales quadratically. It is only natural blasting is quickly left behind. At least the real spells limit it to enemies capable of one or more of those spells. And how many have all three? Only Artificers and other UMD types can even attempt to. FoM and Death Ward are Divine, Mind Blank is Arcane after all.
It is also worth mentioning all of the above are much higher level than Resist Energy (it caps at 30, but since that's low damage - 30 you'd be surprised how often it makes energy attacks do little to nothing), Protection from Energy, Energy Immunity (the spell is non core, but there are certainly core things with natural immunities)... So yeah. Even if they actually were equally effective blasting is still more easily negated.