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My long time group has gotten a couple new players and one of them is a power-gaming munchkin. The other player is his old DM and says that he's always been this way. The munchkin says he's been gaming since '79, but I kinda figured that someone who has gamed that long would have grown out of it by now. If anyone has any advice on how I should proceed I would really appreciate it.
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I guess to get serious advice you'd have to describe how he behaves and what's the problem with his behaviour at the gaming table. Just being a munchkin doesn't have to be a problem... I too have a player that's always trying to make the most out of his PCs and is always trying to get the most powerful items, benefits etc. . To me, this isn't a problem as long as this behaviour doesn't interfere with the actual game play or does spoil the enjoyment of the campaign for me and the other players.
My long time group has gotten a couple new players and one of them is a power-gaming munchkin. The other player is his old DM and says that he's always been this way. The munchkin says he's been gaming since '79, but I kinda figured that someone who has gamed that long would have grown out of it by now. If anyone has any advice on how I should proceed I would really appreciate it.
So does he like running half dragon characters? Trying to intimidate half demon npcs armed with crossbows that fire lightning bolts even after the dm warns him?
Has he run any games himself?
Does he run Highlander games where his character pulls out weapons such as missile launchers and the like and ignores rules of immortal combat such as drawing his sword and attacking a foe who has spared his life because there are mortal witnesses nearby and he ignores these even though one of the other players was running a police inspector at the time?
So what does he do that is so munchkinism?
My long time group has gotten a couple new players and one of them is a power-gaming munchkin. The other player is his old DM and says that he's always been this way. The munchkin says he's been gaming since '79, but I kinda figured that someone who has gamed that long would have grown out of it by now. If anyone has any advice on how I should proceed I would really appreciate it.
More details are required I'm afraid.
At a hunch, however, I'd guesstimate you have what I call a Power Cretin. Ideally, he's one of "those" who likes to go off sideways from the main group on a regular basis, making him a Lone Wolf Power Cretin.
But, without more substantive details...
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Ok details will be given, :). Power Cretin is more likely what he is. He keeps telling me how he used to play a Solar and that I should let him play one in my campaign. The group was a bit astonished that Mike(his old DM amd our other new player) would let him. Mike explained that he made him play it like a racial level thing. His character is a rogue/fighter 2/2. He comes to the game with a ton of books and takes me aside to talk about weapon improvements for his PC. No big deal. He was very upset that his PC took DEX damage from poison and lost his initiative bonus and two weapon fighting feats while injured. I guess I'm just amazed that someone who has played as long as him would still be like this. I dropped it along time ago. I may just be nit-picking but it is a bit irritating when he always goes first in combat and never seems to come away damaged.
He was very upset that his PC took DEX damage from poison and lost his initiative bonus and two weapon fighting feats while injured.
I don't take away feats because of ability damage. Should I be? Reduced DEX will reduce his initiative (although most of us forget) but reducing DEX below the feat pre-req I would not take away the feat.
It doesn't take the feat away, he just can't use it while his dex is too low to qualify for the feat.
It sounds like you're handling him pretty well, actually. I have a player who has similarly optimized characters. The problem here is that his character is so much more powerful then the other characters. The solution for me has been to beef up the encounters a little and throw the tougher stuff at him.
The other behavior he has is wanting to play nonstandard character races and such. Orcs and tieflings. I've found that it works well for me to encourage the roleplaying aspect of it and use the ELC rules and the addendums to them in Unearthed Arcana. Basically, if he wants to play something wierd I try to allow it if he can come up with a good roleplaying explanation.
The combination of these techniques has turned this particular player from a minmaxing powergamer into one of the biggest contributors to storytelling in the group. The crux of it has been to try to find ways to say yes to him, while standing firm on stuff that I feel is unbalancing.
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I'm resisting the urge to kill the party off and start again. I know that's drastic and over-reactionary, but I get a bit frustrated with him and another player who justs plays to blow off steam. They both got reduced to 0 hp and got very angry. These are grown men, but I suppose we're all babies at times. I told them that when you're a front-line warrior, you're going to take the most attacks and damage in melee and they said I had it out for their PC's.
I have more problems with the power gamer, but together they can be unbearable.
You are gaming to have fun too. If having to design every session around whatever new exploit Player A wants to 'beat' the campaign with is not your idea of fun, then you have an issue.
As I have said before, I do not think trying to houserule or restrict your munchkin into submission is the way to go. One or both of you will ultimately be frustrated quite possibly to the point of open aggression.
Talk to the player. Remember that if you put him on the defensive, he will never see your point. Find out what it is he wants out of the game. Explain to him that constantly trying to keep up with him is not your idea of fun. Find if there is some common ground where you both can get what you want out of the game.
Two in one group really complicates things. People like that tend to feed off of each other.
And don't feel alone in this. A person in our group consistently has to be the lead/strongest character. Then whines if his character gets targeted as a result. We haven't figured how to stop it so we just work around him.
As to the request/demand that he should be allowed to run a Solar that is totally your call. Not to be snarky but your campaign - your world - your rules. The boundaries have to be clear and some players will always chafe at being 'limited' to standard builds.
I'm resisting the urge to kill the party off and start again. I know that's drastic and over-reactionary, but I get a bit frustrated with him and another player who justs plays to blow off steam. They both got reduced to 0 hp and got very angry.
Personally, I find it to be in very poor taste for (supposed) adults to get "very angry" about the quality of free entertainment.
I would suggest getting everyone at the table to repeat the mantra "It's only a game" 10 times. Either that, or start charging everyone for your time. :-)
I bet people would treat GM’s better if they had to pay them.
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Thanks everyone! Your insight and experiences have been very helpful. I've told them that a Pathfinder campaign is what I'm running and if they don't like it they don't have to play. The Solar thing really went in one ear and out the other with me. If it's not in the PHB, it's not allowed as a PC race. I've also decided that my NPC villains are going to be cold-blooded evil, if they're evil, and not apologoze for it. If one of them dies, they are dead. Roll up a new PC. I'm starting to feel like it's not fun anymore.
He was very upset that his PC took DEX damage from poison and lost his initiative bonus and two weapon fighting feats while injured.I don't take away feats because of ability damage. Should I be? Reduced DEX will reduce his initiative (although most of us forget) but reducing DEX below the feat pre-req I would not take away the feat.
Yes, you no longer qualify, the feat(s) are no longer accessible. That is part of the game.
Ok details will be given, :). Power Cretin is more likely what he is. He keeps telling me how he used to play a Solar and that I should let him play one in my campaign. The group was a bit astonished that Mike(his old DM amd our other new player) would let him. Mike explained that he made him play it like a racial level thing. His character is a rogue/fighter 2/2. He comes to the game with a ton of books and takes me aside to talk about weapon improvements for his PC. No big deal. He was very upset that his PC took DEX damage from poison and lost his initiative bonus and two weapon fighting feats while injured. I guess I'm just amazed that someone who has played as long as him would still be like this. I dropped it along time ago. I may just be nit-picking but it is a bit irritating when he always goes first in combat and never seems to come away damaged.
Ummm ... yeah, to reiterate, he needs to suck it up. 'Always goes first' sounds like a case of Convenient Dice-itus. Never coming away damaged sounds highly, highly improbable to me.
Character Death Therapy is called for. ^_^
Thanks everyone! Your insight and experiences have been very helpful. I've told them that a Pathfinder campaign is what I'm running and if they don't like it they don't have to play. The Solar thing really went in one ear and out the other with me. If it's not in the PHB, it's not allowed as a PC race. I've also decided that my NPC villains are going to be cold-blooded evil, if they're evil, and not apologoze for it. If one of them dies, they are dead. Roll up a new PC. I'm starting to feel like it's not fun anymore.
Yeah, when a game becomes a source of stress, it's time to step back and chill for a while. I applaud your decision in sticking by your guns.
I'm resisting the urge to kill the party off and start again. I know that's drastic and over-reactionary, but I get a bit frustrated with him and another player who justs plays to blow off steam. They both got reduced to 0 hp and got very angry. These are grown men, but I suppose we're all babies at times. I told them that when you're a front-line warrior, you're going to take the most attacks and damage in melee and they said I had it out for their PC's.
** spoiler omitted **I have more problems with the power gamer, but together they can be unbearable.
They pitched a fit about being reduced to 0 hp ? Yeah ... I expect they'd be taking a short walk out the door in a hurry at my table for that. Grief...
I bet people would treat GM’s better if they had to pay them.No way! Then they would feel like they own the DM. "I don't like that ruling, you better do better in the future or You're Fired!"
No thanks.
I am an independant contractor GM. My not-inexpensive services are hired on an advanced pay, non-refundable basis.
If the client fails to stipulate certain matters up front prior to receipt of payment, they are free to terminate the campaign.
If the client proposes to engage in my services for the purposes of certain campaign matters or styles I reserve the right to refuse such service.
Lastly, if the client expects to 'change on the fly' without such expectations having been stipulated up front prior to receipt of payment, I am free to terminate the campaign.
^_^
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At the end of CoKK they pissed off the lumber consortium. Our dwarf PC(the "blows off steam player") threatened to kill a smith that refused to help them. The smith told him that helping the party would only lead to trouble for him and his family and told the party it would be best if they left town soon. The player, not character, got very angry that he couldn't sell or repair his gear. He then tried to enlist the other PC's to attack the Consortium. Thankfully our monk PC stopped him by explaining what would happen if the caused an uprising. The more I'm around him the more I realize he's just a bad roleplayer. I don't like saying that, but facts are facts. maybe I'm just cursed with only having one good player per group I run.
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not to sound glib here, but this is how i handle the likes of the two you're discussing:
there's the front door. utilize it as an egress. call me when you grow up...
i was burned by my fun not being fun like that in the past. i'm much more discriminating when it comes to whom i'll invite to my home to game with these days...
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I would, but I'm strapped for players. I've put invites all over where I live and got two responses, the two new players. The others are an old friend(18 years) and a guy I know who is a friend but is slowly un-becoming my friend. I'm tempted to start a PF Society game at Hobbytown in Kennesaw just to meet other gamers and talk them into joining my home campaign.
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I would, but I'm strapped for players. I've put invites all over where I live and got two responses, the two new players. The others are an old friend(18 years) and a guy I know who is a friend but is slowly un-becoming my friend. I'm tempted to start a PF Society game at Hobbytown in Kennesaw just to meet other gamers and talk them into joining my home campaign.
honestly, if you're not having fun, i might suggest doing what i did. spike the current campaign, let the guy you like know what you're doing (so he'll be there for the rechristening), take some time off (nearly 10 months in my case - my last experience was that bad...), recharge the batteries, leisurly work on your next campaign concepts, and slowly build new contacts. go out for coffee or a beer, get to know them a bit, find out if they fit your style, then invite them.
before i started posting here, i seriously had doubts that i'd find a good game in h-town, but now, it is looking very good.
gaming is supposed to be fun, and i know too well how frustrating it is when it's just a chore...
I think that a game that is no fun is worse than no game. If you as the DM have no fun gaming, by all means do something about it. First, I would try to talk to the players ruining your fun. Let them talk about what they expect from the game first. Then try to explain what makes a fun game for you, and try to find a way to get these views together. If it becomes obvious that your idea of a fun game is not comparable to the players ideas of fun, by all means stop that game!
I would strongly advice against killing off the offending players characters, as this would just lead to more bad feelings. If it happens in the course of an adventure (say, because the PCs attack the lumber consortium and have it come to them), don´t spare them, but don´t aim at killing these PCs.
Stefan
That sounds good! Care to tell more? Y´know, anybody can get in such a situation, and knowing how others solved theirs can help.
Stefan
That sounds good! Care to tell more? Y´know, anybody can get in such a situation, and knowing how others solved theirs can help.
Stefan
Yeah, I'd like to hear more. I have a 'muchkin rising' issue as well. I've told him what books I've limited my campaign to but I get the sense he's looking at build combinations for power. Oyy!
Sometimes sitting down and talking out your differences can work.
What?! Say it isn’t so! That’s inconceivable!
Yes, I have been on forums where somebody announced wholeheartedly they're a "paid GM", the reactions were unimaginable.
I can imagine. Although, I do not really see why it would matter. If you do not want to pay to play, then don’t.
In my experience, GMs put the most work into the game, receive the most abuse and most of the time do not even get a simple ‘thank you’. People generally treat friends that invite them over for BBQ and football better than GMs.
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The player, not character, got very angry that he couldn't sell or repair his gear.
You've got to cut this player loose. A dungeon master should never be so desperate for players that he is a slave to them. Its your world, your game, DM has say on all things.
That said, perhaps your player doesn't understand what the game is about. Have your tried running something for him 1:1, like a solo adventure. When introducing a roleplaying game to someone, I usually point out rule zero, I sometimes reference Gary G's statement in the Afterword of the original Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide - that little paragraph of bold lettering is priceless. Then, I'll take them on a short adventure where power doesn't matter, but adventure and heroics are rewarded, but not everything is possible a la Level 1, or even a Level 0 commoner adventure.
This introduction, and in many cases of players that learned screwed up things from a previous bad DM, this reframes the game for them. Remember, you are playing the game too. You deserve to be having fun as well.
Under no circumstances should you continue with false sentiments or perceptions that you have it out for their particular characters. This actually undermines the game in a worse way than munchkining - because we're talking about actual play where misperceptions will lead to personal hard feelings i.e. this never ends well, anyways.
Good luck to you.
I've had all sorts of players in my campaigns, and so far there have been two players that I will never, ever, run a game for again.
One will sit there quietly during the game and play his character really well, but then insists on sending me emails or calling me after the session to explain what he liked and didn't like. At first I liked getting feedback, but when he began doing this after EVERY single session, it got tiresome. Then he completely flew off the handle every time I disagreed with him about something, but only via email.
The second player is a sort of social outcast. The only reason he played was because his two brothers were also playing. You know the type, likes heavy metal music, has long hair in a ponytail, patchy facial hair, wears a black cape in public sometimes. Anyways, he was prone to frustrating outbursts during our games when things didn't go his way. He would throw his hands in the air and talk extremely loud about how "that's a dumb rule" or begin other such rants.
I've tried to confront them about these issues during play, but later I just stopped inviting them to the table. I've found a couple new people to replace them and they are much more fun to play with.
So while I applaud your attempts at reconciling your differences with the players in question, keep in mind that you always have a final solution of not playing with them anymore. But that should be your last resort, and handled delicately if they are friends of yours too.
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Yes, I have been on forums where somebody announced wholeheartedly they're a "paid GM", the reactions were unimaginable.I can imagine. Although, I do not really see why it would matter. If you do not want to pay to play, then don’t.
In my experience, GMs put the most work into the game, receive the most abuse and most of the time do not even get a simple ‘thank you’. People generally treat friends that invite them over for BBQ and football better than GMs.
y'know...I've noticed this too. I think GMs should start a union! and the first thing I'd fight for would be a preagreed upon amount of "thank you", or at least a sign that they appreciate the work after every session. or maybe even a cake once in a while.
[rant]
Man...if I didn't get so much entertainment writing fluffy backgrounds for races and desiging towers where rocks fall, I'd totally quit. It's hard to keep doing something and getting not only no appreciation, but also very little respect. isn't it odd how these days it's acceptible to play RPGs, and even be able to do so and avoid the "nerd" title that used to be applied automatically, but tell someone you're a GM, and watch them suddenly treat you like nothing...GAH!
[/rant]
I would just appreciate a little effort from players. You know…like coming up with a name for your character. Yes, yes, I know you have an 18 STR…what’s his name? Yes, yes, +3 Sword of Slay Stuff…what’s his name?
Even a couple e-mails during the week to let me know you are actually planning on showing up. Maybe some feedback about the game.
Well CF, beign a DM is a mostly thankless job.... Ungrateful PCstards! And they wonder why is the DM such a sadistic creature!
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I would just appreciate a little effort from players. You know…like coming up with a name for your character. Yes, yes, I know you have an 18 STR…what’s his name? Yes, yes, +3 Sword of Slay Stuff…what’s his name?
Even a couple e-mails during the week to let me know you are actually planning on showing up. Maybe some feedback about the game.
exactly. they do put creative effort into their characters, but they react identically regardless of what i do with the world around them. i literally have to pull any feedback out like teeth! and it's usually stuff like "not enough monsters". half the time i feel like i could throw them into a colleseum and just pick random monsters out of the MM and they'd be as happy. oh well. this time i'm trying to give them more imput into the world around them, basically building it as a team, and they're showing more interest gradually. guess you get more interested when your suggestion of "why don't we make the humans sorta like cowboys in western frontiers instead of a catch-all race?" can actually be put into effect.
Yes, I have been on forums where somebody announced wholeheartedly they're a "paid GM", the reactions were unimaginable.
Better a "paid GM" than a "paid Dungeonmaster."
That's a completely different job.
not to sound glib here, but this is how i handle the likes of the two you're discussing:
there's the front door. utilize it as an egress. call me when you grow up...
i was burned by my fun not being fun like that in the past. i'm much more discriminating when it comes to whom i'll invite to my home to game with these days...
Same here derek... ugh... people need to get some perspective.
i literally have to pull any feedback out like teeth!
Oh, don’t get me started!
Me: “I would like to get some feedback. What was something you liked and something you did not like about the session?”
Player 1: “It was fine.”
Player 2: “I liked that I killed that one monster.”
Me: “What didn’t you like.”
…
Me: “Is there anything you would like to see more off?”
…
Player 3: “Have you seen this video on YouTube?”
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Well, we traded emails and I threatened to spike the game and completely stop unless he stepped up. I finally told the whole group that we'd be starting a new campaign with a point-buy system, only equipment from the PHB/Beta and Golarion specific books, no outside feats and miraculously, he shaped up and got in line. I hated being so draconian, but sometimes you gotta be a hardass.
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I would, but I'm strapped for players. I've put invites all over where I live and got two responses, the two new players. The others are an old friend(18 years) and a guy I know who is a friend but is slowly un-becoming my friend. I'm tempted to start a PF Society game at Hobbytown in Kennesaw just to meet other gamers and talk them into joining my home campaign.
I have two very good players but that's all I have. And you know what? Campaign works fine. You might want to consider becoming a small-party GM. All you have to do is jack the PCs up a few levels over the recommended level for the adventure (and possibly encourage them to play multiclassed PCs with "multiclass helper" prestige classes like arcane trickster, mystic theurge, eldritch knight, nightsong enforcer, shadowbane stalker, etc.) and you should be fine. A pair of exceedingly-powerful asskickers played by smart, resourceful PCs can be a hell of a lot more fun to run games for than a small army of losers. My "sweet spot" seems to be 3 solid players, but 2 is no problem and I can manage with 4. However, they key phrase here is "solid players". I can have people with foibles, weird preferences, etc. but they have to be good, solid roleplayers who bathe and have actual social skills. I have no patience for the dregs of RPG society any more. I would rather not play than play with losers.
Well CF, beign a DM is a mostly thankless job.... Ungrateful PCstards! And they wonder why is the DM such a sadistic creature!
Ayup, I can empathize strongly with that sentiment. :)
I have two very good players but that's all I have.
Cool story! Thanks for sharing, and kudos for having indeed good players.
Stefan
Well, we traded emails and I threatened to spike the game and completely stop unless he stepped up. I finally told the whole group that we'd be starting a new campaign with a point-buy system, only equipment from the PHB/Beta and Golarion specific books, no outside feats and miraculously, he shaped up and got in line. I hated being so draconian, but sometimes you gotta be a hardass.
Had you spoken with him or otherwise expressed your frustration before this point? Sometimes it's really a no-fault situation. The previous DM had let him play a solar, which indicates to me the guy has trouble saying "no" to his players. Thus, the player gets the impression that's okay and doesn't understand why it wouldn't be. If no one ever gives him the impression that it isn't alright, they have no reason to come to that conclusion on their own. This is particularly true of relatively new players; or, perhaps in this case, people who have only played with one or two DMs. Has the player in question ever had a DM other than the former one who is now in your group?
At any rate, when someone expresses to them dissatisfaction with their play style, such players are often capable of radically changing and fitting in with the group as a whole and still having fun. They had simply never considered the matter before. Once they have done so, they see and respect others' views and change.
Ideally. And we all know how often things are ideal in this world....
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Actually, the more I tried to talk to him and tell him my side of it the more he said it was me and I was a bad DM who couldn't roll with what his players threw at him. Since I wrote the last response, I've decided to not invite them back and have found new players on the Atlanta MeetUps D&D group. He really pissed me off by saying, "A good DM should be able to handle what his players throw at him and roll with it. But thats just coming from someone who's played for 30 years." Real classy, douche.
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I would just appreciate a little effort from players. You know…like coming up with a name for your character. Yes, yes, I know you have an 18 STR…what’s his name? Yes, yes, +3 Sword of Slay Stuff…what’s his name?
Then when you get the name it is some pre-pubescent, ridiculous, immersion-rending name that rhymes with Butt-Muncher...
EDIT- Wow! B-u-t-t got editted! Amazing.|
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Actually, the more I tried to talk to him and tell him my side of it the more he said it was me and I was a bad DM who couldn't roll with what his players threw at him. Since I wrote the last response, I've decided to not invite them back and have found new players on the Atlanta MeetUps D&D group. He really pissed me off by saying, "A good DM should be able to handle what his players throw at him and roll with it. But thats just coming from someone who's played for 30 years." Real classy, douche.
Response: "A good player works with the GM to create a fun experience for everyone at the table. But that's just coming from someone with manners, social skills, and a grasp of gaming theory that goes beyond 'I hit it with my sword'."