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The fly skill in PFRPG has encouraged me enough to take another look at introducing a favored race of mine that can fly, but balancing a flying race can be a bit of a problem. Especially when you don't want to introduce a race with a Lv penalty.
I've used flying races in the past, namely Monte's Spryte's from AE, but never included a race that could fly from the start. So here are some of the crunchy parts of the race I am trying to work on.
-2 Str -2 Con +2 Dex
or
-2 Str -2 Con +2 Cha
Size - Medium
Move - 30'
Fly - 50' The character needs a 15' of open area to fly and 20' to hover. He cannot fly while under a Med or Heavy Load.
Keen Vision - +2 bonus on sight Perception Checks
I am looking at this race having rogue as a favored class but also having a sub-section of the race that is blessed with enchanted blood (sorcerer).
So I guess my question is whether in your opinion the stat penalty and flying restrictions are balanced against the benefit that a flying PC gains.
Thoughts?
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The fly skill in PFRPG has intrigued me enough to take another look at introducing a favored race of mine that can fly. But balancing a flying race can be a bit of a problem. Especially when you don't want to introduce a race with a Lv penalty.
I've used flying races in the past, namely Monte's Spryte's from AE, but never included a race that could fly from the start. So here are some of the crunchy parts of the race I am trying to work on.
-2 Str -2 Con +2 Dex
or
-2 Str -2 Con +2 ChaSize - Medium
Move - 30'
Fly - 50' The character needs a 15' of open area to fly and 20' to hover. He cannot fly while under a Med or Heavy Load.Keen Vision - +2 bonus on sight Perception Checks
I am looking at this race having rogue as a favored class but also having a sub-section of the race that is blessed with enchanted blood (sorcerer).
So I guess my question is whether in your opinion the stat penalty and flying restrictions are balanced against the benefit that a flying PC gains.
Thoughts?
The fly skill in PFRPG has encouraged me enough to take another look at introducing a favored race of mine that can fly, but balancing a flying race can be a bit of a problem. Especially when you don't want to introduce a race with a Lv penalty.
Look at what was done with Raptorans (Races of the Wild) and Dragonborn (Races of the Dragon) in 3.5. They basically can't actually *fly*, just jump or glide, until they get a certain number of hit dice, and they can't fly all day until high levels.
The ability to fly can be a huge advantage in many situations.
So you should balance it with a real disadvantage of some sort.
Now i don't really think giving a level adjustment would fix the problem.
I would recommend something balancing the flight tactical advantage.
First of all many adventures take place in narrow areas where flight is not an option. To flap wings, you need space. So no flying.
But you can push it farther.
As the race would feel bad in narrow spaces, being unable to move as normal, give it claustrophobia (fear of closed spaces), which relates to a penalty (-1 or -2).
Then as the race is used to fly, it is not really used to walk or run.
So give it a speed of 20 for medium size.
About the abilities :
-2 strength is fine, you can explain that with a "hollow bones" fluff, like some flying races have (see the avariels).
-2 constitution could be ok too, but that makes the race pretty weak physically.
+2 Dexterity fits well a graceful creature idea.
Many "birdie" races have a good eyesight (eagle sight), which often translate into a bonus in Wisdom. But you don't have to go that way, as, if i understood your idea, you plan to balance the flight with two penalties and only one bonus (+2, -4).
You can still emulate that with a +2 bonus to Perception (vision).
I would suggest also +2 to Acrobatics or Athletics.
Don't decrease their Strength. We have enough trouble ignoring the square-cube law without ignoring the fact that any winged humanoid will need immense upper-body strength. -2 Con easily models the "hollow bones" idea.
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I agree with using the Raptoran model, which was, IMO, a stroke of genius for allowing a flying race without all sorts of level-adjustment nonsense.
Start with the winged race able to fall safely from great heights at 1 HD, move on to really impressive jumps (+10 racial bonus to Jump checks, no max distance?) at 2nd level, one round flying 'leaps' (30 ft. leap with a Jump or Fly check) at 3rd or 4th level and then, finally, full flight at 5th or 6th level. By the time a Wizard or Sorcerer could learn the Fly spell, the winged race could be flying for hours, although perhaps not as fast or nimbly, at first.
Gaining HD / class levels could be part of it, as well as possibly blowing a Feat at some point to increase flight maneuverability or speed beyond clumsy / 30 ft. or whatever.
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Don't decrease their Strength. We have enough trouble ignoring the square-cube law without ignoring the fact that any winged humanoid will need immense upper-body strength. -2 Con easily models the "hollow bones" idea.
I have heard the cube-square law referenced before, but I have never been able to figure out what it means. Could you explain it to me please?
Edit: I know, great question coming from a bird.|
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I have heard the cube-square law referenced before, but I have never been able to figure out what it means. Could you explain it to me please?
Edit: I know, great question coming from a bird.
Square the size, cube the weight. If something is twice as big, it will weigh eight times as much.
I learned this from the first Dragon Annual. :)
Although we used it a lot in Villains & Vigilantes.
I suppose it has some real-world applications, but what EVER...
I have heard the cube-square law referenced before, but I have never been able to figure out what it means. Could you explain it to me please?
Edit: I know, great question coming from a bird.Square the size, cube the weight. If something is twice as big, it will weigh eight times as much.
I learned this from the first Dragon Annual. :)
Although we used it a lot in Villains & Vigilantes.
I suppose it has some real-world applications, but what EVER...
That's actually not quite right. Size is volume, and increases just as fast as weight.
However, what the 'cube-square law' idea is trying to reference is how scaling works. Say you change the height of something and want to keep the same proportions. How thick are its legs? How much does it weigh, relative to the original.
Lenght scales linearly, cross-sectional area scales as the square, and volume scales as the cube. So if its new height is 2x, then its legs have 4x the cross sectional area and it weighs 8 times as much.
This is especially relevant for muscle strenth, because muscle strength scales as the cross-sectional area of the muscle tissue, but has to support/move the mass of the creature. ie, given identical proportions, a creatures strength rapidly falls behind the mass it is trying to move.
So a Hill Giant can't exist. It lacks sufficient muscle to move its own mass. It would need much more muscle relative to a human for the same capabilities of movement (at which point it doesn't look nearly so much like a large human).
And that's the actual 'cube-square law' - muscle strength as the square, mass/volume as the cube.
Its a good thing for the Hill Giants that they don't believe in Biophysics or they'd be in real trouble ;)
One of the way that Sprytes in Arcana Evolved achieve a form of parity with other characters is in their size. They are Tiny. So they lose a lot of damage ability in exchange for gaining flight.
Other "flying from the start" races that I've seen generally get gliding at level one as already mentioned in the thread. Flight still gives a whole third dimension of movement that can negate a lot of plot and adventure elements. (These elements start to go out the window at L5 and disappear almost entirely by L9 or L10.)
So a character that can fly from day one needs to be weaker in some other characteristics. Or they could simply be able to fly less, not more. You know how dwarves and clerics moving at 15 feet or 20 feet per round slow down the party, never get to the action until its almost gone, and at a full run are a lot slower than anyone else when fleeing the big lava river? How about reducing the flight speed to 20 feet at L1. Then over the course of the next several levels, they gain more speed. Or they have to take a feat to get the speed, or something.
I would also suggest brushing up on flying rules for the player. If they don't know that it's going to take twice as much movement to go up, they might get stuck at the wrong moment. I personally ignore the degrees of movement for flying since it introduces facing where the game has none and it's needlessly complex.
General rule is that functional flight itself adds +2 to the ECL. This should not be reduced.
Huh... That's actually what the OP is trying to remove, Lazarx...
The point is to balance the advantage of the flight with something more satisfactory than a level adjustment.
Functional flight is one of many abilities available at level 5, with no drawbacks. Losing 2 levels forever to get it sooner is overpaying. Plain and simple. Flying is very useful, don't get me wrong - just don't fall into the trap of 'Flight with Wings is a level 15-18 ability'. No. Just. No.
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Functional flight is one of many abilities available at level 5, with no drawbacks. Losing 2 levels forever to get it sooner is overpaying. Plain and simple. Flying is very useful, don't get me wrong - just don't fall into the trap of 'Flight with Wings is a level 15-18 ability'. No. Just. No.
Which is why the Raptoran model works so well - they don't achieve flight until 5th level - the same time a Wizard gains access to the Fly spell.
Until that point, Raptorans may Glide. This allows them to glide from a higher point to a lower point, which allows them to overcome obstacles in a similar manner to Jump or Feather Fall or a low level Dimension Hop. It does not break plots by allowing characters to fly though the top window of a Wizard's tower without first encountering his minions on the lower levels.
I currently have two Raptoran PCs in my Runelords campaign. Despite having the ability to Glide, no occasion has arisen where they have had a need to use it, outside of roleplaying flavour. But that is where Glide and winged PCs shine - it makes the players feel special about their characters, without giving them an unfair advantage.
Even after they gain flight at 5th level, it's duration and uses per day are limited to balance it versus the Fly spell.
Runelords spoiler:
As a GM, I wholeheartedly approve of the Raptoran as a PC race.
The raptoran option is one of the best I belive, since flying its so much and advantage that to offset it would mean to heavely penalize other areas... QUite difficult not no make it a LA+1
Stuff
I think you're forgetting that this is a fantasy game, with giant bugs and dragons and stuff. Why are we even discussing the physics of flying humanoids?
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For thought experiment territory:
Assume a 12' tall humanoid that was identically proportioned to a 6' tall humanoid.It has 4x the strength.
It has 8x the mass.
It has 1/2 the effective strength.
In order to have the same effective strength, it needs to have the muscle cross-sectional area that is 8x as much, or twice as much as the identically proportioned version. Ie, 4x = 4/3 pi r^2 proportional to x = 4/3 pi r2^2. The actual r would need to solve for r at twice that, sqrt(6x/pi) = r(proportional strength), compared to sqrt(3x/pi) = r(proportional dimensions), or differs by the ratio sqrt 6/sqrt 3. Which is approximately 22/5 * 3/11 = 66/55 = 6/5 the radius. That doesn't sound like much, but actually draw something with that difference in proportions and you'd see some serious differences.
And because of the square vs. cube scaling, going up to 18ft tall leads to even larger differences. (9x the strength, 27x the mass... ouch).
Now consider that available oxygen scales as volume (oxygen intake through the lungs), while heart strength scales as cross-sectional area (it is a muscle). At some point, a scaled-up creature with identical proportions can't pump blood fast enough to supply oxygen to the cells. I seem to recall blood vessel network volume scales as 4/3 volume, but I'd need to actually look that up. In any rate, this scales up faster than muscle strength as well. A creature who can't supply its cells with oxygen suffocates, even though its lungs are working just fine.
And that's not even considering the diaphragm. Lung capacity/efficiency might scale as volume, but the muscle which controls exhale and intake scales as cross-sectional area. You might have a properly scaled set of lungs - it doesn't help if you can't get air into them...
Now, consider scaling up a bird that can fly to something human sized. Yeah... ouch.
Well, I recall from somewhere that the cells in a dog's heart muscle have a higher population of mitochondria than humans, so in theory anyway, you wouldn't necessarily have to go that much bigger. Just get a heart capable of pumping harder.
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Raptorans are not OGL, so I don't know how much of their Flight mechanic can be transported to other races, but I'd *LOVE* to see Pathfinder use something similar to this to make other flying races PC-playable when they get around to a Pathfinder Tome of Horrors or Pathfinder SRD Monsters volume (MM), or even the Pathfinder Adventure Path Bestiary (or other feature article) - the Lyrakien (RotRL #2) would have been a good candidate.
If re-visiting a Savage Species approach to PC-playable creatures, this method could be a path to *any* Medium-sized humanoid gaining flight.
Varianor mentioned above that size may be it's own blancing factor for Tiny-sized PC races, trading damage output for flight (Arcana Evolved).
Limited duration per day has already been used to blanace natural fight versus the Fly spell, perhaps due to effort/exhaustion (Raptoran example).
Another factor that could be used to scale Flight for low-level PCs might be limiting altitude to 5' or 10' per level. Tiny-sized characters could flit about the heads of their travelling companions, but are either too nervous to fly higher or risk damage by unpredictable gusts of wind at higher altitudes without bravery or experience. This keeps the flavour/appeal of a flying race, while limiting the height to a low-level dimension hop, preventing plot-breaking situations such as the Wizard's tower mentioned in my previous post.
Granting Glide at 1st level and limiting Fly to 5th level was worked into the Raptoran race's backstory. However, that might not work for other low-HD races, or races that have always had flight at any level. In these instances, the 1st-Glide/5th-Fly restriction could be applied to PCs-only due to being abandoned by their flock, and having to learn Flight the hard way.
So there there are a number of different solutions that could grant Flight to different races tailored to an individual race's flavour or other requirements, while keeping Flight scaled for low-level PCs.
Plot breaking. There's that term again. If your plots are not adaptive enough to handle your players being smart and doing something unexpected, I recommend dismantling the lightning rail your campaign is on before your players decide a train ride is really not what they want. Thank you.
Now, consider scaling up a bird that can fly to something human sized. Yeah... ouch.
Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
Honestly, there is plainly some serious brain power behind a post like that, but... really? D&D is the last thing you should be thinking about in such realistic terms. Two words for you my friend: Dire Flail.
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For thought experiment territory:
Assume a 12' tall humanoid that was identically proportioned to a 6' tall humanoid.It has 4x the strength.
It has 8x the mass.
It has 1/2 the effective strength.
In order to have the same effective strength, it needs to have the muscle cross-sectional area that is 8x as much, or twice as much as the identically proportioned version.
In the Dragon Annual that first addressed this, it was pointed out that giants had some sort of innate magic that helped support their weight (and that the levitation abilities of cloud giants, storm giants and titans were more highly developed expressions of this innate magic) and were made of 'tougher stuff' than us mere 'fun-sized' humanoids. Same with Dragons (with the Gold Dragon of 1st edition being wingless and using innate levitation to fly).
In more 3E relevant terms, I guess the Titans DR 15 legs are made of stuff that is a bit stronger than human flesh and bone. :)
Red Dragon breathes fire on law of conservation of energy and takes it's stuff.
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I'm running a prehistoric campaign, and I've got a race of pterosaurs. When on the ground, they walk with their large wing-arms, leaving their lower limbs to grasp and manipulate objects. Because their "legs" are quite a bit smaller than the arms used by other races, I give them an ability that is the reverse of the goliaths' powerful build. They use weapons and perform combat maneuvers as if they were one size smaller. They resist combat maneuvers and other attacks normally for a creature their size.
Red Dragon breathes fire on law of conservation of energy and takes it's stuff.
Now, to make myself a complete hypocrite,
In my homebrew campaign setting, dragons have physiology that breaks down the carrion and livestock (also swamp vegetation) in their bellies and converts their decomposition into hydrogen. Their gas bladder fills, helping them get airborne (hollow bones and low muscle density help).
They also have a special bone in their throats that forms from mineral deposits they get from eating precious metals. This mineral bone can grind to create a spark, which ignites the gas expelled from the bladder, allowing the dragon to breathe fire. However, they can only do this once or twice, and they cannot get airborne afterward with an empty gasbag.
This is a no-magic setting, though, so I think this level of realism is warranted. It is fun to think about, despite my earlier snarkiness.
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In my homebrew campaign setting, dragons have physiology that breaks down the carrion and livestock (also swamp vegetation) in their bellies and converts their decomposition into hydrogen. Their gas bladder fills, helping them get airborne (hollow bones and low muscle density help).
They also have a special bone in their throats that forms from mineral deposits they get from eating precious metals. This mineral bone can grind to create a spark, which ignites the gas expelled from the bladder, allowing the dragon to breathe fire. However, they can only do this once or twice, and they cannot get airborne afterward with an empty gasbag.
This is a no-magic setting, though, so I think this level of realism is warranted. It is fun to think about, despite my earlier snarkiness.
That's very cool. Making 'dragons' in a magic-free world would be fun, and a definite shocker for a party expecting brigands and maybe, gasp, *archers,* in the way of adversaries.
I was just thinking that they'd probably only be able to breathe once and then need to eat before being able to fly again, but you already covered that. Awesome!
Heh. D&D is definitely a game for geeks if an off-hand reference to a famous law of physics suddenly invokes half a page of in-depth physical discussion of magical entities :)
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StuffI think you're forgetting that this is a fantasy game, with giant bugs and dragons and stuff. Why are we even discussing the physics of flying humanoids?
Why not? It's not like we all believe that because some things are possible, everything is possible and in any sort of way.
I like underlying physics to have some sort of sense to it; giant bugs can't be scaled-up versions of normal bugs, but that doesn't mean that giant bugs can't exist, they just have to be different to scaled-up ones in order that the laws of physics don't kill them. Flying can be achieved in a lot of ways, too, and I don't mind if the answer is 'magic', but if the answer isn't magic then I do like to think a little about what it is.
A flying race would be interesting to see and the 20ft/round base land speed would work; also saying that the being can only fly with a light load might work, but I would not necesaarily impose a strength penalty, or a con penalty-this is sounding unbalanced, I know. How to make it balanced-simple: the creature must have 10 to 15 feet of clearance on EACH side of it (total wingspan: 25 to 35 feet including central 5ft square to be able to flap its wings and get airborne; as well it requires 15 feet clearance from overhead obstacles to fly. The wings need to be of sufficient breadth to get airborn but a flying race of humanoid size is possible with proper construction:
Wikipedia: Teratorns (specifically argentavis magnificens)
Teratorns were very large birds of prey who lived in North and South America from Miocene to Pleistocene. They were somewhat close to modern condors and as such, they are more closely related to storks rather than Accipitridae which includes most other diurnal predatory birds, including Old World vultures; however, Rhys (1980) put the family Teratornithidae in the order Accipitriformes. They include some of the largest known flying birds. So far, four species have been identified:
* Teratornis merriami (Miller, 1909). This is by far the best-known species. Over a hundred specimens have been found, mostly from La Brea Tar Pits. It stood about 75 cm (29.5 in) tall with estimated wingspan of perhaps 3.5 to 3.8 metres (11.5 to 12.5 ft), and weighed about 15 kg (33 lb); making it slightly bigger than extant condors. It became extinct at the end of Pleistocene, some 10 000 years ago. Teratornis is Greek for "monster bird".
* Aiolornis incredibilis (Howard, 1952), previously known as Teratornis incredibilis. This species is fairly poorly known, finds from Nevada and California include several wing bones and part of the beak. They show remarkable similarity with merriami but are uniformly about 40% larger: this would translate to a mass of up to 23 kg (50 lb) a wingspan of about 5.5 metres (16.5 ft) for incredibilis. The finds are dated from Pliocene to late Pleistocene which is considerable chronological spread, and thus it is uncertain whether they actually represent the same species.
* Cathartornis gracilis (Miller, 1910). This species is known only from a couple of leg bones found from La Brea Ranch. Compared to T. merriami, remains are slightly shorter and clearly more slender, indicating more gracile body build.
* Argentavis magnificens (Campbell & Tonni, 1980). A partial skeleton of this enormous teratorn was found from La Pampa, Argentina. It is the largest flying bird known to have ever existed. It is the oldest known teratorn, dating to late Miocene, about 6 to 8 million years ago, and one of the very few teratorn finds in South America. Initial discovery included portions of the skull, incomplete humerus and several other wing bones. Even conservative estimates put its wingspan at 6 meters and up (some 20 ft), and it may have been as much as 8 metres (26 ft). Weight of the bird was estimated to have been around 80 kg (176 lb). Estimated weight and wing area rival those of the largest pterosaurs.
Another form, "Teratornis" olsoni, was described from the Pleistocene of Cuba, but its exact affinities are not completely resolved; it might not be a teratorn at all. There are also undescribed fossils from southwestern Ecuador, but apart from these forms, teratorns were restricted to North America (Campbell & Tonni, 1983).
Also there are numerous large pterosaurs (quetzalcoatlus, pteranodon, etc.) equal or greater in weight to humans, so a flying humanoid race even in a low magic or possibly no magic setting would work.
The square cube law does have its uses but even in the real world, nature and evolution are better engineers than we sometimes are willing to credit: after all, some sauropods could rival whales in length, which, prior to their discovery was considered...unlikely. So never underestimate the possibility of the seemingly impossible.