Actually yes. Which begs the question, if censorship is bad, is censorship of censorship worse?
Okay, I think I understand the term now. So, when Courtfool used the term PC he was trying to discourage political expression that discourages political expression? Saying something is 'PC' is a way of trying to stop people from trying to stop people from saying something, right? I got it.
What about censorship of censorship of censorship?
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What about censorship of censorship of censorship?Actually yes. Which begs the question, if censorship is bad, is censorship of censorship worse?
Okay, I think I understand the term now. So, when Courtfool used the term PC he was trying to discourage political expression that discourages political expression? Saying something is 'PC' is a way of trying to stop people from trying to stop people from saying something, right? I got it.
Well that would collapse the multiverse as we know it. Kinda like using the Easy Button to find another Easy Button.
I appreciate that you have strong feelings on this issue, but please do not resort to personal insults when expressing them. It makes you no better than the man you are upset with.
I don't need to be better than him. But simply because the truth is insulting (have you seen the man? He's a lard tub.) doesn't make it 'resorting to personal insults'. In his case, telling one not to resort to personal insults is the same as saying "please don't talk truthfully about him at all."
As for his waste of oxygen, he has typed up useless slights against DnD players (who include soldiers on the front lines dying for his precious freedom) on two occasions now, no doubt mouth breathing the entire time. What could you possibly term that, if not a waste of the planet's precious oxygen?
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Kain, I have to breathe through my mouth most of the time due to sinus problems.
I feel you have insulted me. Therefore I ask you to formally resign from the Message boards.
I second the call for a resignation because as an overweight person who's multiple broken noses in my younger days makes it easier for me to breathe through my mouth, I am also offended. I am also offended as a veteran who feels that you do not speak for all of us.
I breathe through my mouth because I believe it makes me look sexy.
Hey! That's why I drag my knucles on the ground as I walk! Small world.
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Everyone just wanted to fight on the other thread I posted this at. Maybe you guys will take it in the spirit is was meant.
Today the Obama campaign is proud to announce our vision of change for the Pro-Obama Dungeons and Dragons crowd. I the interest of change and growing our economy, we will ask Congress to pass a bill requireing everyone to switch over to Fourth Edition by April. We hope that this will help to heal the rift between nubes and grognards and allow us to establish a time table to pull our troops out of the edition wars. In order to mitigate the financial difficulty that this may cause, you will be able to trade in your 3.5 and Pathfinder books for a 20% discount on Fourth Edition products. More details will be 4th coming. Thank you.
I second the call for a resignation because as an overweight person who's multiple broken noses in my younger days makes it easier for me to breathe through my mouth, I am also offended. I am also offended as a veteran who feels that you do not speak for all of us.Kain, I have to breathe through my mouth most of the time due to sinus problems.
I feel you have insulted me. Therefore I ask you to formally resign from the Message boards.
Hopefully you are joking as I 'think' MM was. If not, tough. I'm not speaking for all vets, I'm speaking as 'a vet'. If you can't grasp the concept, the internet is going to hurt your feelings a lot more than this, I assure you. Although I'm a little confused as to what part of my vet related posts you might not be able to get behind. That soldiers play DnD? That people mocking DnD players as people who live their parents' basement is a complete stereotype that has no place in the words of someone speaking for a national party's presidential candidate?
And perhaps you don't see the difference between "being fat" and "being fat and mocking other people for being fat" but there is one. If you're tubby, so what? All shapes and sizes. When you are tubby and you are belittling other people for being out of shape through your safe internet medium, screw you and screw your feelings. Glass houses and throwing stones and all that jazz.
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I second the call for a resignation because as an overweight person who's multiple broken noses in my younger days makes it easier for me to breathe through my mouth, I am also offended. I am also offended as a veteran who feels that you do not speak for all of us.Kain, I have to breathe through my mouth most of the time due to sinus problems.
I feel you have insulted me. Therefore I ask you to formally resign from the Message boards.
Hopefully you are joking as I 'think' MM was. If not, tough. I'm not speaking for all vets, I'm speaking as 'a vet'. If you can't grasp the concept, the internet is going to hurt your feelings a lot more than this, I assure you. Although I'm a little confused as to what part of my vet related posts you might not be able to get behind. That soldiers play DnD? That people mocking DnD players as people who live their parents' basement is a complete stereotype that has no place in the words of someone speaking for a national party's presidential candidate?
And perhaps you don't see the difference between "being fat" and "being fat and mocking other people for being fat" but there is one. If you're tubby, so what? All shapes and sizes. When you are tubby and you are belittling other people for being out of shape through your safe internet medium, screw you and screw your feelings. Glass houses and throwing stones and all that jazz.
I would hope that my previous post shows the type of joker I am. If not, then yes I was joking. The part of your post I could not get behind is being offended by a statement that obviously does not represent you. Like I tell my kids, if someone tries to make fun of you by saying something that;s not true, just say "so" and move on.
LOL. Can you imagine? That would probably work. As it is I just keep thinking of Michael Palin from Monty Python.
Glad to hear I am not the only one, I get odd mental images when she is mentioned...
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LOL. Can you imagine? That would probably work. As it is I just keep thinking of Michael Palin from Monty Python.Glad to hear I am not the only one, I get odd mental images when she is mentioned...
If Michael Palin were running for VP, I'd switch my vote! He has more international experience than all of the candidates put together, and as a film-maker he is sure to be organized and capable of brining diverse people together to get things accomplished. Plus, maybe people would actually watch C-Span with him presiding over Congress! I know I would!
If Michael Palin were running for VP, I'd switch my vote! He has more international experience than all of the candidates put together, and as a film-maker he is sure to be organized and capable of brining diverse people together to get things accomplished. Plus, maybe people would actually watch C-Span with him presiding over Congress! I know I would!
Michael Palin could not run for vice president unfortunatly... The vice presidential candidate has to meet the same requirements as a candidate running for President, which means among other things that he or she has to have been born an american citizen.
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President
I was trying to censor someone? Why didn’t I get the memo?!
My take on the whole thing was that he was suggesting Obama supporters had not actually 'been there nor done that'; armchair quarterbacks if you will.
Was it an ignorant statement about an outdated misconception? Sure. Demanding an apology for every ignorant statement about an outdated misconception would be a full time job. I just think drawing more attention to it by demanding an apology gives it false credibility.
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I was trying to censor someone? Why didn’t I get the memo?!
My take on the whole thing was that he was suggesting Obama supporters had not actually 'been there nor done that'; armchair quarterbacks if you will.
Was it an ignorant statement about an outdated misconception? Sure. Demanding an apology for every ignorant statement about an outdated misconception would be a full time job. I just think drawing more attention to it by demanding an apology gives it false credibility.
Actually you misunderstood. You were accused of trying to censor the censors. Leave it to a poodle to get it wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I was trying to censor someone? Why didn’t I get the memo?!
My take on the whole thing was that he was suggesting Obama supporters had not actually 'been there nor done that'; armchair quarterbacks if you will.
Was it an ignorant statement about an outdated misconception? Sure. Demanding an apology for every ignorant statement about an outdated misconception would be a full time job. I just think drawing more attention to it by demanding an apology gives it false credibility.
Actually, I said you were trying to "discourage political expression" by using the old "cut it with the PC crap" trope. C'mon. You've gotta appreciate the irony there ... ;-)
Anyhow, it's just the label 'PC' that bugs me, not your suggestion. 'PC' is used by my students to dismiss any idea outside of their comfort zone so I've got a bug up my ass about it.
I just do not see how I was trying to censor or “discourage political expression” of anyone? I believe the banner of political correctness has been taken too far when we have to draw swords to defend every perceived insult.
You can get all miffed because someone called gamers pasty-faced, basement-dwellers. All that letter succeeded in doing is make them stop and think, ‘We have to be careful what we say because we do not want to piss off the pasty-faced, basement-dwellers again.”
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I just do not see how I was trying to censor or “discourage political expression” of anyone? I believe the banner of political correctness has been taken too far when we have to draw swords to defend every perceived insult.
You can get all miffed because someone called gamers pasty-faced, basement-dwellers. All that letter succeeded in doing is make them stop and think, ‘We have to be careful what we say because we do not want to piss off the pasty-faced, basement-dwellers again.”
I hope I haven't insulted you. Perhaps I have misunderstood you.
What do you mean by 'political correctness'?
I hope I haven't insulted you. Perhaps I have misunderstood you.
What do you mean by 'political correctness'?
Not insulted at all. Just trying to understand where you and DF were coming from.
From Wikipedia:
Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term used to describe language, ideas, policies, or behavior seen as seeking to minimize offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups. Conversely, the term "politically incorrect" is used to refer to language or ideas that may cause offense or that are unconstrained by orthodoxy.
In the context of this discussion, I see political correctness as we, the gaming minority, taking offense to the statement and demanding recompense.
Can we not be just as un-PC and point out that he is a politician and therefore ignorant of the difference between 3.5 players and 4e players?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm torn here. I do think there are times when 'minimizing offense' means that we don't get used to being offended. I can't link to it right now ... I'm typing with a 3-year-old on my lap ... but school boards' decisions to tell teachers not to use the words "bullet point" and not to use red ink to mark assignments because children might get offended or think dark thoughts about guns is, in my mind, incredibly stupid. How else are we going to prepare these kids for the long agonizing series of insults and failure that await them in adulthood? I consider that kind of crap to be 'institutional correctness' born out of an absolute paranoia of getting sued. I blame a litigious culture.
At the same time, I strive to make my own language inclusive.
Still, the wikipedia article has some other interesting stuff on 'political correctness':
Such commentators say that there never was a "Political Correctness movement" in the United States, and that many who use the term are attempting to distract attention from substantive debates over discrimination and unequal treatment based on race, class, and gender (Messer-Davidow 1993, 1994; Schultz 1993; Lauter 1995; Scatamburlo 1998; Glassner 1999). Similarly, Polly Toynbee has argued that "the phrase is an empty rightwing smear designed only to elevate its user".[23]
In other words, saying something is 'PC' is also, often, a way of saying: "don't tell me what I can't say". Ironic, no?
If Michael Palin were running for VP, I'd switch my vote! He has more international experience than all of the candidates put together, and as a film-maker he is sure to be organized and capable of bringing diverse people together to get things accomplished. Plus, maybe people would actually watch C-Span with him presiding over Congress! I know I would!LOL. Can you imagine? That would probably work. As it is I just keep thinking of Michael Palin from Monty Python.Glad to hear I am not the only one, I get odd mental images when she is mentioned...
I am so down with that.
My beef is that I have only seen politically correctness applied to speech. It fails its own spirit by not addressing the true issue, how we treat one another as humans. More effort should be spent on how we treat, say an African American, than worrying over how to label him.
If we treated each other with dignity and respect, there would not be a need for ‘political correctness’ and I could go back to telling truly tasteless jokes.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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My beef is that I have only seen politically correctness applied to speech. It fails its own spirit by not addressing the true issue, how we treat one another as humans. More effort should be spent on how we treat, say an African American, than worrying over how to label him.
We agree on that. I've been left-leaning all my life but my biggest frustrations with my pro-feminist and anti-racist friends are that we tend to silence those they most need to talk with and we pay more attention to what is said than what is done.
If we treated each other with dignity and respect, there would not be a need for ‘political correctness’ and I could go back to telling truly tasteless jokes.
Yeah, but they might not be funny anymore. Humour is weird like that.
Here's a joke I've been telling for about 10 years when I've been doing teacher training. When we're talking about teaching children, I just slip into the lecture, totally deadpan, "Well children may look cute, always remember they are here to replace us. They're going to take our jobs and live in our houses." ... (Okay, but it's funnier when it is slipped into a lecture on developmental psychology, trust me). Up until 5 years ago people laughed. Around 5 years ago my 20-something students would laugh and then say "You can't say that!" as if I've insulted a marginalized group. About 2 years ago, they started to look at me silently as if I've just used a racist slur. We live in humourless times.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Of course, you might have a point. Perhaps, "political correctness" has gone too far. ;-)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Yeah, but they might not be funny anymore. Humour is weird like that.
Try this one. A snail gets mugged by two turtles. When the police show up they ask the snail what happened. "I don't know," the snail says, "it all happened so fast."
Edit: Hey Tarren, what do you teach?
A bit of everything.
I'm a part-timer so I take the work where I can get it. I've mostly taught ESL but I got into teaching teachers how to teach ESL. From there, I went into teaching teachers about multiculturalism and teaching to students from differing backgrounds. This led to doing anti-racism education ...
I just finished writing my doctoral thesis last night. I actually feel kind of ill right now. Anti-climactic.
In a couple of months, I'll have my defense and will come on here and demand cookies in celebration of getting my PhD.
Truth is, this last year of writing it has been hellish. We've had a car accident, illnesses, and a lot of other stress. If it weren't for the good humour of Paizonians, I'd have lost my mind. ... I didn't thank you guys in the acknowledgements though. That would have read funny: "I'd like to thank Heathansson, The Jade, NSpicer, Wicht, CourtFool, Set, David Fryer, Armadolem, ....". Still, thanks for being cool.
Truth is, this last year of writing it has been hellish.
One thing I learned during my military career was that, sometimes, the only way to survive an intolerable situation is through humor.
I am touched that even one of my posts may have helped ease your burdens for a moment.
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Michael Palin could not run for vice president unfortunatly... The vice presidential candidate has to meet the same requirements as a candidate running for President, which means among other things that he or she has to have been born an american citizen.
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President
I was just having a laugh. I know Michael Palin can't run for high office. He's a British citizen!
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If Michael Palin were running for VP, I'd switch my vote!If his political career ended up anything like his movies, I'd probably be terribly, terribly confused through much of it.
I think you are thinking of that other Python, Brazil director Terry Gilliam. Actually, I think Gilliam is an American citizen. Check out Palin's bio on IMDb and you'll see what I mean when I say he has international experience. The man is a world traveler!
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If his political career ended up anything like his movies, I'd probably be terribly, terribly confused through much of it.I think you are thinking of that other Python, Brazil director Terry Gilliam.
Ooh, my bad. I never could remember who was who. It's all a blur to me. John Cleese, and, uh, those other guys!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Truth is, this last year of writing it has been hellish.One thing I learned during my military career was that, sometimes, the only way to survive an intolerable situation is through humor.
I am touched that even one of my posts may have helped ease your burdens for a moment.
Oh, you have, Courtfool. In fact, just looking at you puts a smile on my face.
I really haven't seen this as a big issue. I have become used to gamers being ridiculed, by both sides. Many Obama supporters took offense to being compared to D&D players, but that is not something that comes up very often in threads discussing this issue.
An why should it? Who really cares what some random soccer mom thinks? Its a significant issue however when a major paid staffer for one of the political parties decides "Lets call those loosers on the other side D&D Players! That will hit them were it hurts!"
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I really haven't seen this as a big issue. I have become used to gamers being ridiculed, by both sides. Many Obama supporters took offense to being compared to D&D players, but that is not something that comes up very often in threads discussing this issue.An why should it? Who really cares what some random soccer mom thinks? Its a significant issue however when a major paid staffer for one of the political parties decides "Lets call those loosers on the other side D&D Players! That will hit them were it hurts!"
Because, if you are going to outraged by the stereotyping of a group, then you should be outraged whether it is a major payed staffer or a random soccer mom. If it is offensive from one it is offensive from the other. A racial slur doesn't hurt any less because it comes from a soccer mom. Lets be consistent in our outrage shall we?
Glad you were joking above, DF. When I was very young, I had a terrible infection and the doctors accidentally removed my sense of humor. So I have trouble telling when people are joking over the internet. I've learned the hard way that the assumption "No one could possibly be that [various negative qualities here]" is a poor one to make on the net.
I think you are wrong here regarding 'doesn't matter who says it'. Black and white isn't practical. The President of the U.S. (or a staffer for a would-be-future-president) has a MUCH bigger impact than some guy running his mouth down at the paint factory or shopping for chips at Meijer's grocery store. For instance, a while back the president of Harvard or something said that women weren't as good at engineering and sciences compared to men. That is going to have a much bigger impact on the minds of young girls than Local Larry Loudmouth spouting off about how a woman's place is in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. Both comments are offensive, but only one of them is truly damaging.
Also, whether or not you embrace 'PC' depends a lot on how you think about people. If you value the freedom of speech over all else, being PC is a restriction on that value. If you value treating people well over all else, being PC is natural as you are trying to avoid offense. Freedom and treating people with kindness are both good values, but they don't always go hand in hand with each other. I value both, but if it comes down to a situation where I can exercise my freedom of speech and call Larry Loudmouth a retard or be kind and not associate general stupidity with people who cannot help what abilities they were born with, I think I'd rather err on the side of kindness.
And punch that moron right in the mouth.