Undead in 3/3.5 have always had a problem with hemorrhage of hit points due to a lack of constitution score. Combined with their low base attack bonus, and it makes it difficult to make a real brute-force style undead without piling on the hit dice. Even an undead-templated with a fighter or barbarian loses out seriously on the hit point scale, making undead warriors difficult as credible boss-villain types. Now that they can be sneak attacked (or critted, I think) like anyone else, their lack of a constitution score has gone from being a weakness (which I don't think should have been there to begin with) to a crippling effect.
This is what I consider a problem. Apparently, at least one Pathfinder writer's had the same issue, as an undead boss villain in one of the Paths got Unholy Fortitude (use Cha mod instead of Con for hit points and Fort saves,) just so it could go from one round to a serious fight. Something similar happened previously in one of the Dungeon mag Paths too, so it's a difficulty that people have needed to side-step for a while now.
As a GM, nothing's stopping me from dropping Unholy Fortitude on any undead toughie I think needs it, but Pathfinder is partly about fixing holes in the system, and I think the ability to sneak attack them makes it more important now than ever. My personal suggestion would be to make Unholy Fortitude something undead just have as a feature of the creature type. There's already precedent in the form of incorporeal creatures using Dex scores for to-hits and Cha for deflection bonuses.
But, then, I'm of the school of thought concerning undead that favors hearing heroes utter such immortal phrases as "How do you kill what's already dead?!" and "Why! Won't! It! Die?! Oh gods, Why?"
Much better than "That's it?"
A very valid point. I, too, remember said villain in the Pathfinder issue you mention. I thought it was a fine touch and worthy of the effort.
I have always found that it is quite difficult to make experienced gamers squirm, and the undead are not something that evokes the proper degree of... concern that they deserve.
Perhaps a general re-evaluation of the undead type is in order. Perhaps something like Unholy Fortitude is a step in the right direction. Or maybe grant most undead some basic damage reduction that cannot be overcome other than by brute force (i.e. as the Barbarian class feature).
This can indeed be a problem. At first d12 HD looks like a lot, but on average, most fighters have higher hp totals. A general damage reduction without something to overcome it might be too much, but what about giving them 1/2 hd DR/holy weapons or something in that vein? So, if you got a lich of say 12 HD, he would have DR 6/holy. This can still be overcome by brute force, but gives them staying power in line with the danger they present. Overcoming a DR of 6 by brute force should be possible for a group of level 10-12. Maybe this would need a cap of max. DR 10/holy, otherwise it might get out of hand.
Some undead have DR from other sources, this might need some consideration (e.g. skeleton 5/bludgeoning, zombie 5/slashing).
Giving all undead Unholy Fortitude won´t work properly, as some undead have minimal Charisma scores (mostly the mindless types, like Zomies and skeletons). I would reserve Unholy Fortitude for special undead anyway, as this should indicate a special status among undead IMO.
Stefan
Giving all undead Unholy Fortitude won´t work properly, as some undead have minimal Charisma scores (mostly the mindless types, like Zomies and skeletons). I would reserve Unholy Fortitude for special undead anyway, as this should indicate a special status among undead IMO.
Stefan
This is indeed what I have heard Jason is considering - perhaps accepting the impact on low Cha undead. Perhaps all *intelligent* undead should get it? No skeletons or zombies, but the rest?
It does make your sorcerous liches a whole heck of a lot more powerful. ["Hey Mr. Sorcerer, how would you like to use d12's instead of d6's, and get your Charisma to hitpoints instead of your poor sad Constitution?"
"Wow golly, that's great, sure!"
"Okay, here's the instructions for a phylac.. er.. the little box you'll need. Get craftin'!"
"Right away strange voice in my head!"]
Perhaps Undead templates shouldn't change HD? We're entering quite a spiral of changes.
|
Just to point it out....The 'oh gods, why won't this die!' effect is more a result of DR than massive hit points. A farmer whacking at a zombie with an axe-handle is going to lands some blows and go 'Pelor help me, why won't you die!'.
I personally am of the opinion that DR/slashing, DR/piercing or DR/bludgeoning should be just made into DR 5/- and that for every 5 HD past the first 5, the DR should be raised by 5.
Then the Ogre zombie (55hp, 8HD) would suddenly be DR5/- now that's a good fight for 3rd level PCs. The Minotaur Zombie (81hp, 12 hd) would be nice with DR10/- for a 4th level party. A cloud Giant skeleton (110hp, 17HD) with DR15/- is suddenly worthy of a 7th level party.
Now I can also see an argument for not changing DR to '-' AND having it scale due to power issues but truthfully either method on it's own would help out a bunch.
I like that ideal fake I like it well.
Uh, guys?
Note that undead use their Charisma bonus in place of their Constitution bonus when determining hit points (although skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead should have their Charisma scores set to 10).
Well spotted!
I think it should perhaps this information should be in Table 12-9, as an *** after the Undead d12 hit dice. But it looks just like what people were asking for.
Just to point it out....The 'oh gods, why won't this die!' effect is more a result of DR than massive hit points
I've been thinking about this - you're exactly right about weapon damage, but not for for spells and channeling. That's why I think I prefer the charisma bonus to undead, even though I think you're on to something here.
If you want to make undead special in Pathfinder Beta, I would give them positive energy resistance. In the Alpha, that made a huge difference to how effective channeling was...
Majuba - the last big fight I ran in my regular game included a half-dragon kobold sorcerer lich with a charisma bonus to hit points. The party was convinced he had all kinds of DR and energy resistance, since he lasted longer than the kobold death knight. He just lich trains and a huge number of hit points thanks to a high charisma and a cloak of charisma...
Something might have to be done, there, to level out the difference between Sorceror liches and Wizard/Cleric liches.
Basing bonus HP on Charisma bonus leads indeed to undead sorcerers and bards (and perhaps blackguards/ex-paladins) being tougher than most other undead (if you take some undead with character classes as basis for the thought).
Higher levels of toughness shoud be reached by some other means. Positive energy resistance, DR and perhaps even some inherent SR for some undead seem to be the way to go IMO.
Stefan
Uh, guys?
Note that undead use their Charisma bonus in place of their Constitution bonus when determining hit points (although skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead should have their Charisma scores set to 10).
What? Actually *reading* all of the applicable rules? for an online messageboard? Is that actually legal? What were you thinking?
That's for the clarification and extra effort, Shisumo. Any suggestions how to get others to do the same thing? like students?
Uh, guys?
Note that undead use their Charisma bonus in place of their Constitution bonus when determining hit points (although skeletons, zombies, and other mindless undead should have their Charisma scores set to 10).
Oh. Well.
That's good!
Uh, thanks!
I spent quite a while poking through my print copy of the Beta looking for something like that, and apparently, should have looked a bit longer. My bad.
To be honest, I haven't read the document cover to cover. I found the passage on Rogues and sneak attack, then sat down and started trying to find a section that discussed undead. I think I would have had better luck if I was looking through the PDF instead of the print copy, where an ability to search by keyword would have helped.
It does raise(heh) the problem that charisma based classes will make physically tougher undead than undead warriors. Perhaps what stat gives the bonus to hit points could be variable? The damage reduction without any counter sounds helpful too. It's what they use for mummies to make them unstoppable lumberers.
Undead in 3/3.5 have always had a problem with hemorrhage of hit points due to a lack of constitution score. Combined with their low base attack bonus, and it makes it difficult to make a real brute-force style undead without piling on the hit dice.
"You gotta pile on the hit dice" is a problem (summed up as "HD vs. CR") that goes deeper than just the undead. It's part of 3.5's misguided effort to make monsters follow the same rules PCs do (which doesn't help the game... and which isn't actually the case anyway).
Edit: this won't solve the BAB issue (and will make undead warriors with the proper BAB too tough, because they have so much HP), but... give them CON scores. That'll solve the problem. CON represents how tough something is; there's no real reason to limit that to physiology. Golems and undead should both have CON scores.
This'll make them far less vulnerable to damage spells, Disintegrate, etc, though.
Undead in 3/3.5 have always had a problem with hemorrhage of hit points
Wouldn't limit the lack of HP to just undead! More often than not I find that adversaries have far too low of HP.
Undead should die quickly.
For alot (not all, but alot) of undead the fear comes from what Could happen. Not necessarily what does- but what could.
Want to be a ghoul? Wraith? Shadow? Vampire?
The answer I suspect for most heroes is "No thank you!" usually said with sword or mace well in hand.
How about a big heaping handful of mummy rot?
Paralyzed to death?
Ghoul Fever?
Want to get Babbled to oblivion? (Allip)
This is before you get into the really annoying things like level or ability drain/damage/whatever.
Hopefully the answers to all those questions are not just no, but BLEEP no! Heck no you don't want all that!
It's scary to players to be inflicted with most things that undead are capable of inflicting. Most aren't terribly good damage dealers, they are good with "status effects". That is to say- things PC's don't normally deal with and aren't regularly capable of dealing with.
For Undead the cure is simple: Kill Them First.
One ghoul for a party of 4 is no problem. (ghouls are CR 1).
Unless you are the one that gets ghoul fever.
Then that one, simple to kill creature, has taken on a whole new fear.
While undead Don't need to be SA'd (please Jason if you are reading this- change SA back! please!), they definately don't need an HP buff.
If your PC's are scared of the undead they are fighting, check the entries carefully and make sure you are running them correctly.
Once a Night Crawler swallows a PC whole in the surprise round by coming up from the ground beneath their feet while draining a level a round from the hapless PC, they will grow a whole new respect for the Undead.
-S
They also have this ton of immunities. Hit point damage is about the only way to get rid of them.
Though I think immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks is a really good thing in 3.5e. I don't see the reason why rogues should be as good in fighting as fighters are.
An personally, I really like the effect of having undead impaled by a spear or a short sword embedded in their heads without showing any signs of distraction. ^^
Maybe undead should get bonus hit points in the same manner that constructs do?
|
Edit: this won't solve the BAB issue (and will make undead warriors with the proper BAB too tough, because they have so much HP), but... give them CON scores. That'll solve the problem. CON represents how tough something is; there's no real reason to limit that to physiology. Golems and undead should both have CON scores.
This'll make them far less vulnerable to damage spells, Disintegrate, etc, though.
With a few undead in particular, such as Vampires and Ghouls, which manifestly have some sort of 'metabolism,' fueled off of blood and flesh instead of milk and sammiches, them not having a Con score is actually kind of jarring, mechanically. I'm not sure about incorporeal undead or mindless skeletons and zombies, but the predatory corpses definitely seem to have some sort of 'unlife' going on and a Constitution score would be the best mechanic to handle that, IMO
There are a few quibbles about monster design that get to me, and the Undead = no Con thing is one, as is the Vermin = no Int thing.
Traditionally, both undead and persons tainted by undead (those turning into vampires or ghouls, for instance) are *tougher* and harder to kill, not weaker.
As for the hit points issue, I'm a fan of Unholy Toughness (which was used in one of the Monster Manuals as well, IIRC) and the notion, adopted by Golems in 3.5, of just handing out some bonus hit points based on size category. In the case of undead, I used some house rules to allow the creator of undead minions to make 'mastercrafted' skeletons and zombies with these extra hit points (using the chart for extra HP by size category) by selecting the best body parts, laminating the bones, stuffing the cavities with reinforcing materials, etc. Some skill checks, some cash outlay, perhaps even a special feat along the line of Craft Construct, and the new improved undead are all jacked up and ready to go.
|
If you want to make undead special in Pathfinder Beta, I would give them positive energy resistance. In the Alpha, that made a huge difference to how effective channeling was...
I don't get it... why normal undeads should be resistant to possitive energy? ok old ones have already abonusto their saevs, why should they have DR against it?
its like saying that colf based creatures have fire resitance! (or viceversa)
aside of that
i do like the damage reductions... as a player ok it gives me headaches, but a s amster it would explain undeads durability...
while you don't want an army of the dead to be really indestructible (and hard to bookkeep) you want individual or small groups of undeads to be even more scary.
but believe em after a while the players woul bring just about any type of weapon just to be able to hurt everykind undeada available, specially fi the DM usses them a lot... as a DM i have seen it... as a player, my cleric uses to bring the right tool for the right job every time
Keep in mind, the new toughness feat helps a lot too. That alone would give an ogre zombie 63 hp.
With Charisma adding to hit points, it does make undead sorcerers and blackguards a more common opponent, but such strong personalities would be drawn to that path. It also makes liches and undead knights (death knight) fearsome opponents.
I don't get it... why normal undeads should be resistant to possitive energy?
Whoops, that was unclear on my part. I mean that if you want to create an especially nasty undead, a way to make them special is to give them positive energy resistance.
Think of them as being so cold that normal fire doesn't bother them.