This was discussed in alpha but not taken up, so...
The worst thing about turning is the whole "run away" concept. It sucks for fear spells too. It is a nightmare for the DM to adjudicate (pull out the map...) Usually DMs just handwave it off rather than worrying about where they run off to. And with undead, they're just coming back anyway, so effectively it's just a delay of game. Unless you corner them, and get the heroic feel of shooting something in a corner. It's just not fun, flavorful, or easy to run.
And there's so many more ways to handle it. Make them "shaken" or "cowering." Treat it like a mass Sanctuary on the group. Or a Repulsion effect. Decide on a cool effect you want and there's probably something to make it identical to. But stop the running. It's lame and hateful.
Then fix it for fears on people, too...
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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After running the new turning mechanic about three thousand times at the Gen Con delve, I've got to say I agree with this criticism.
I'm sure the "flee" mechanic was included to mimic the "run away" idea so central to the core concept of turning undead, but it seemed like a tack-on to me, and having to always refer back to the creature's saving throw slowed down the game a fair amount.
I agree that Jason should consider changing this part of the rules.
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I can think of three easy ways to fix this:
1) Make the duration of fleeing effectively permanent, say the undead flees as far as it can get up to a mile away, and stays turned for 1 day. That way, DMs can actually hand wave it with the rules, and the encounter is effectively over.
2) Just have the creature cower in place.
3) Grant all non-undead within the area of the positive channel the effect of sanctuary against undead (or even hide from undead).
Could possibly combine 2 and 3 if you have a degree-of-success save (failure is sanctuary, failure by 5+ is running).
I'm just throwing ideas out there, but I really like the idea to grant all creatures a hide from undead effect against all undead also in the area. It would allow a break in the battle to have the PCs reform and get a tactical advantage. This is a far less powerful effect (1st level) than having the equivalent of a fear effect.
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I'd prefer just doing turning damage(1d6 per divine caster level or 1d6/2 caster levels) and imposing a 'shaken' ability on the undead. It's positive energy, which is supposed to hurt undead. If you want you could make certain domains have different effects instead.
I agree with this. I'm not a fan of "run away" effects, and would rather see fear effects simply leave the character shaken.
I'd rather see variant effects handled with feats rather than domains.
While I agree 'fear' is a pain, who hasnt had a laugh when a PC has to drop their precious items and flee, especially if they are faster than the rest of the party - hilarious. You have made Confusion more enjoyable, maybe fear could do with some work.
For undead I would be happy with something like shaken and a sanctuary effect on the cleric (which breaks when he attacks). I dislike the 'corner them then shoot them style.
I blame Sinistar for this awkward game mechanic.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I'd prefer just doing turning damage(1d6 per divine caster level or 1d6/2 caster levels) and imposing a 'shaken' ability on the undead. It's positive energy, which is supposed to hurt undead. If you want you could make certain domains have different effects instead.I agree with this. I'm not a fan of "run away" effects, and would rather see fear effects simply leave the character shaken.
I'd rather see variant effects handled with feats rather than domains.
I agree with the feat variants rather than domain variants. It's easier to deal with then, and confusion and complication can be avoided if a GM wishes to.
I think that undead, mindless as they are, don't really have an in-game reason to run away. I have never thought of zombies and such as particularly concerned with self-preservation, which is, after all, what fear is at its core. Being shaken, however, can be justified by the fact that taking massive positive energy damage will probably have them reeling from the pain and shock of it for a round or two.
I agree. Shaken would be fine. Fleeing has always been and will always be a tremendous time and energy eater. I'd rather see the party shred that low level mob of zombies in a brief false confidence-inspiring encounter than have to hunt them down and kill them one by cowering one.
In my home games, I've already switched to the Heroes of Horror variant scale of fear effects. Shaken is as is (basically -2 to everything). Frightened is like shaken, only the penalties are bumped up to -4. Panicked is just drop what you are holding and cower helpless.
This way my undead can still fight (albeit with a penalty) and my players aren't taken out of the fight as they run away and then back.
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Well after 34 years of game playing I find myself....totally in agreement...lets have turn effects mean something again.This is one thing 4E actually got the principle of right...only they don't let you do enough damage.
I agree that Jason should consider changing this part of the rules.
The man in charge has spoken
Fleeing undead are just so unseemly. So, yes, add my vote to dropping that element of the rule (and I have playtested it as written many times during the Alpha).
Yarp.
A player at my table failed her saving throw vs fear, and was then twiddling her thumbs for the rest of the fight while her character ran away off-map.
Another vote here for losing running-away effects for both people and monsters.
Running an encounter with more than a couple undead that get turned is indeed a logistical pain in the bum once they start to run. As long as the consequence of a successful turn attempt removes the undead as a threat, I don't have a problem with any changes to the mechanic. I think it would drastically affect the usefulness of the ability if the enemy is simply shaken, however. For me, the iconic use of turn undead is to be a low level, but pious, person who stands against a hoard of darkness with nothing but a shining symbol between him and a gruesome death.
Although I agree that the turn mechanic could use some improvement, please don't change fear affects, especially those that could affect PCs. Over the years, I have had numerous encounters with BBEGs in which the PCs lost a major player to fear induced fleeing. This presented them with the difficult decision of falling back (and losing surprise) or holding out (without their ally). Furthermore, this effect is significant enough to compel players to take abilities that resist fear; if fear was just another type of de-buff, I suspect people would be much less willing to invest in "bravery".
I've always liked the idea of turning holding or repulsing undead. The scene in Vampire Hunter D when the protagonist uses a magic item to keep all the creatures in the entryway at bay is how I've always thought turning should work. The outpouring of positive energy disrupts undead preventing them from taking action while significantly weaker ones may actually be destroyed.
My vote then would be for some sort of sanctuary/repulsion effect with the potential to destroy significantly weaker undead outright.
I *prefer* "the running".
If not, Dazed for a round or 2 sounds reasonable. Shaken simply adds even more complications. What happens if you turn again, does the Shaken status stack to Frightened?
Very few of these suggestions, by the way, would remove saving throws. Sanctuary has a save after all.
I like the ideal of damage then shaken myself its simple and be easy to us in game as well as having a better feel
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Consider this another voice added to the chorus of those who would like to see the "running condition" removed from the game in all capacities.
As it is applied to turning it can change a challenging encounter into a boring one. What started as an epic combat between two forces turns into a farce as characters swipe at cowering creatures in the corner. Straight damage and a shaken effect seems more appropriate. The creatures can still fight, albeit at a negative, and the cleric still gets to unleash a ton of pain on the undead creatures.
When applied to a party it takes control of a character out of a player's hands and has never been particularly fun. Every time it came up in one of my games the player rolled their eyes, stood up to get a drink, and did something else while the encounter unfolded. For that reason I rarely used fear effects or took action to insure a fear effect did not remove a character from the battle.
If you want tiered fear effects based on strength, re-write the frightened and panicked conditions.
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Here's what I suggest ...
Do the turning damage, as normal.
If the cleric's level is less than the HD of the undead (counting turn resistance), the undead cannot approach within 10 feet of the cleric, unless the cleric attacks the undead. That is a simplified sanctuary effect that protects people who want to cower near the cleric.
If the cleric's level is higher than the HD of the undead, have the undead act shaken (-2 to a lot of stuff).
If the cleric's level is double the HD of the undead, have the undead cower.
Simple.
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I like Archade sugestion
as someone who use clerics you know that turningaway your enemies will only lets them return later...
keep the turning damage (definitively)
as someone pointed one option is to make them flee "permanently" away (low levels undeads usually end dead anyway)
there is the clasic image of the vampire hunter with a holy symbol keeping away an undead by sher faith, and then udead sometimes running away...
but this is the province of Inteligent Undeads... those who see that thisis not exactlythe ebtter time to fight and reagroup for another time
i would say shaken or just unable to move closer than 10 feets tot he Caster (that way some of the party would be able to still do some damage to the undeads while covering the priest while it holds them out
the question... for how long?
1 round?
1 hour per level?
concentration?
if they are not runnign and you are holding them away with your will, faith and holy syumbol... what happens if for somereason the cleric falls unconcious or simple loses concentration?
***************+
for the Fear spells... i would say leave them... maybe give players and monsters a 2nd saving throw later or just take the mosnter out of battle altoguether
as someone whose beloved dying character was saved bya 1st level "Cause Fear" i am very against taking it away (also de Attack of Oportunity over the enemy was what finaly brought it down)
I *prefer* "the running".
If not, Dazed for a round or 2 sounds reasonable. Shaken simply adds even more complications. What happens if you turn again, does the Shaken status stack to Frightened?
Very few of these suggestions, by the way, would remove saving throws. Sanctuary has a save after all.
I use a 'dazed' for 1d4 rounds, but undead can only be dazed by channeled energy once per day (but can still take damage from it).
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If not [running], Dazed for a round or 2 sounds reasonable. Shaken simply adds even more complications. What happens if you turn again, does the Shaken status stack to Frightened?I agree. For turning, dazed makes much more sense than shaken.
As I think on it, I agree as well. Dazed is a good choice.
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I use a 'dazed' for 1d4 rounds, but undead can only be dazed by channeled energy once per day (but can still take damage from it).I *prefer* "the running".
If not, Dazed for a round or 2 sounds reasonable. Shaken simply adds even more complications. What happens if you turn again, does the Shaken status stack to Frightened?
Very few of these suggestions, by the way, would remove saving throws. Sanctuary has a save after all.
Nice house rule. I think I might steal that.
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Director of Games
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Hey there all,
Although we are not yet discussing this particular rule, I thought I would chime in. When the turning rules were rewritten, this was a hotly contested issue in the office. The original draft did not have them running, but I was later convinced that the running aspect was a signature part of the effect.
That said, I think a shaken or stunned mechanic might work just fine, and it was one of the original ideas to take the place of running. I am very much open to thoughts on this, but I am going to avoid making a decision until we reach this mechanic in the design forums.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I will add my support for Archade's suggestion. It is a good option and simple to use.
[Slight Threadjack]
As far as fear goes, a while back, there was a suggestion the fear impose a larger penalty than shaken. If the target was able to reach a loction out of sight from the source of the fear, they could attempt a new saving throw to reduce the fear effect to shaken instead (and could attempt a new saving throw each round until they succeeded).
For example, the fear spell cast by a 7th level wizard causes a creature to become panicked for 7 round. If the target gets away from the source of the fear effect for 1 full round, they could make a new save to reduce the effect to frightened. After an additional full round away from the source, the effect could be reduced to shaken. The shaken would last for the remaining spell duration. Alternatively, they could act with a penalty (maybe a -4 for frightened and a -6 for panicked).
[/Slight Threadjack]
I'd prefer just doing turning damage(1d6 per divine caster level or 1d6/2 caster levels) and imposing a 'shaken' ability on the undead. It's positive energy, which is supposed to hurt undead. If you want you could make certain domains have different effects instead.
Agreed. It always seemed weird how a CLW would hurt them, but a Turn attempt would just make them hitch up their skirts and run away like they had seen a mouse, so to speak.
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That said, I think a shaken or stunned mechanic might work just fine, and it was one of the original ideas to take the place of running. I am very much open to thoughts on this, but I am going to avoid making a decision until we reach this mechanic in the design forums.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
thanks for the input Jason
its interesting to see you had it in mind, hope to talk about this soon
My two copper.
I feel that undead that have less HD (plus turn resistance) than the cleric should be treated as stunned where undead that are equal to higher are treated as dazed on a failed save vs Channel Positive Energy.
My two copper.
I feel that undead that have less HD (plus turn resistance) than the cleric should be treated as stunned where undead that are equal to higher are treated as dazed on a failed save vs Channel Positive Energy.
If they went this route it could stun a numberand daze of HD=to the clerics level and daze any that fail the save. HD stunned starts with the lowest HD undead and works its way up
I do not care for the turning rules in PfRPG. That being said, I am a fan of old school 1st edition style turning. No energy channeling, just present the holy symbol and invoke the name of the deity and the undead suffer the consequences. They would run or be destroyed.
Turning not blasting with energy. It was meant to be like the effect of a cross presented to a vampire, and it originally didn't work on a mummy.
I never cared for the running factor in the early editions either. I've always house-ruled that they cowered on the spot instead.
I would do the same with the energy blasting rules. Have them damaged and cowering instead of running away.
Additionally, I would make the healing part an either/or proposition. Use a turn attempt to heal OR to actually turn, but not both. I think its overpowered that way. Most people will disagree on this however.
Back to the original subject: Yes, stop the running.
-Jack
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I too use a shaken state rather than running in my home games. At least as far as turning goes. Fear effects are different, but for turning the undead just get increasing penalties. Thought i'd add my vote for that change. And yes, i usually just "handwave" them off the table and out of the game unless its important.
I've always liked the idea of turning holding or repulsing undead. The scene in Vampire Hunter D when the protagonist uses a magic item to keep all the creatures in the entryway at bay is how I've always thought turning should work. The outpouring of positive energy disrupts undead preventing them from taking action while significantly weaker ones may actually be destroyed.
My vote then would be for some sort of sanctuary/repulsion effect with the potential to destroy significantly weaker undead outright.
I also like the concept of "holding them at bay" or something like that. Having the priest standing, with his allies close beside him, holding out his holy symbol and having the ravenous undead clawing and pacing a short distance away, but not able to get any closer due to the holy power being displayed just makes a great picture in my mind.
But how to turn that into a game mechanic? Beat's me. Hopefully a real game designer can help with that, because I surely am not.
Maybe the priest simply has to keep spending standard actions every round to keep the turning effect up?
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I also like the concept of "holding them at bay" or something like that. Having the priest standing, with his allies close beside him, holding out his holy symbol and having the ravenous undead clawing and pacing a short distance away, but not able to get any closer due to the holy power being displayed just makes a great picture in my mind.
But how to turn that into a game mechanic? Beat's me. Hopefully a real game designer can help with that, because I surely am not.
Maybe the priest simply has to keep spending standard actions every round to keep the turning effect up?
Well, if it is run as sanctuary, the undead would get a save each round to directly attack or target the cleric. I like the idea of sheltering allies behind your holy symbol, so you could say that all allies within 5 feet also share the sanctuary effect.
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Well, if it is run as sanctuary, the undead would get a save each round to directly attack or target the cleric. I like the idea of sheltering allies behind your holy symbol, so you could say that all allies within 5 feet also share the sanctuary effect.I also like the concept of "holding them at bay" or something like that. Having the priest standing, with his allies close beside him, holding out his holy symbol and having the ravenous undead clawing and pacing a short distance away, but not able to get any closer due to the holy power being displayed just makes a great picture in my mind.
But how to turn that into a game mechanic? Beat's me. Hopefully a real game designer can help with that, because I surely am not.
Maybe the priest simply has to keep spending standard actions every round to keep the turning effect up?
since the current rule is that they flee from the caster for 1d4+CHA modifier rounds, why not just say the undead may not approach or attack the cleric for 1d4+Cha modifer rounds but otherwise may act normally?
The idea of making it an effect like sanctuary that allows saves each round sounds over complicated
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Unless I'm really clueless, the whole concept of turning undead comes from a classic vampire's reaction to a cross. In every old vampire movie I've ever seen, the technique, when effective at all, caused the vampire to cower in place, usually with his arms in front of his face as if shading himself from bright light. I've never outside the game itself (or video games inspired by it) seen an effect which caused undead to actually flee. I think we're heading in the right direction here.
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since the current rule is that they flee from the caster for 1d4+CHA modifier rounds, why not just say the undead may not approach or attack the cleric for 1d4+Cha modifer rounds but otherwise may act normally?
The idea of making it an effect like sanctuary that allows saves each round sounds over complicated
My thoughts exactly. Instead of "fleeing", have them be compelled to move out of that 30' radius, and stay out for 1d4+Cha rounds.
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My thoughts exactly. Instead of "fleeing", have them be compelled to move out of that 30' radius, and stay out for 1d4+Cha rounds.since the current rule is that they flee from the caster for 1d4+CHA modifier rounds, why not just say the undead may not approach or attack the cleric for 1d4+Cha modifer rounds but otherwise may act normally?
The idea of making it an effect like sanctuary that allows saves each round sounds over complicated
That would be cool, it would allow the party to push through the undead horde and force them to stay 30' back.
Although I agree that the turn mechanic could use some improvement, please don't change fear affects, especially those that could affect PCs. Over the years, I have had numerous encounters with BBEGs in which the PCs lost a major player to fear induced fleeing. This presented them with the difficult decision of falling back (and losing surprise) or holding out (without their ally). Furthermore, this effect is significant enough to compel players to take abilities that resist fear; if fear was just another type of de-buff, I suspect people would be much less willing to invest in "bravery".
I agree with Ayronis' sentiments in regards to Fear effects in general. It may be advantageous to prevent turned undead from running around all over the place like chickens with their heads cut off, but Fear is an important tool in the villain's toolbox that should not be denied!
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Hey there all,
Although we are not yet discussing this particular rule, I thought I would chime in. When the turning rules were rewritten, this was a hotly contested issue in the office. The original draft did not have them running, but I was later convinced that the running aspect was a signature part of the effect.
That said, I think a shaken or stunned mechanic might work just fine, and it was one of the original ideas to take the place of running. I am very much open to thoughts on this, but I am going to avoid making a decision until we reach this mechanic in the design forums.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The only problem I've ever had with running is that most undead can't run very far and do nothing to defend themselves when attacked, unless it's the cleric attacking them. I would be happy if there was some clarification on this in the turning rules, so that creatures that are afraid don't just run to the corner and let someone hit them until they're dead. There's a spell or two that has the same ridiculous effect. You can't charm someone into jumping into molten lava, so why would a fear effect negate self-preservation? Just my thoughts after seeing it a lot at Gencon.
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Although we are not yet discussing this particular rule, I thought I would chime in. When the turning rules were rewritten, this was a hotly contested issue in the office. The original draft did not have them running, but I was later convinced that the running aspect was a signature part of the effect.
Whoever told you that lied. Do not trust this person.
The running aspect has been annoying me since Basic. It is a classic part of the game, but it has lived long past its prime.
Unless I'm really clueless, the whole concept of turning undead comes from a classic vampire's reaction to a cross. In every old vampire movie I've ever seen, the technique, when effective at all, caused the vampire to cower in place, usually with his arms in front of his face as if shading himself from bright light. I've never outside the game itself (or video games inspired by it) seen an effect which caused undead to actually flee. I think we're heading in the right direction here.
This is gospel. Listen to this person.
Well, if it is run as sanctuary, the undead would get a save each round to directly attack or target the cleric. I like the idea of sheltering allies behind your holy symbol, so you could say that all allies within 5 feet also share the sanctuary effect.I also like the concept of "holding them at bay" or something like that. Having the priest standing, with his allies close beside him, holding out his holy symbol and having the ravenous undead clawing and pacing a short distance away, but not able to get any closer due to the holy power being displayed just makes a great picture in my mind.
But how to turn that into a game mechanic? Beat's me. Hopefully a real game designer can help with that, because I surely am not.
Maybe the priest simply has to keep spending standard actions every round to keep the turning effect up?
Well... I am not a real game designer yet anyway. :) But... the turning effect as is has a radius of something like 30' already right? Perhaps have the undead held at bay just beyond this radius, they can attempt to approach closer than this with a will save but doing so causes them to be burned by the positive energy and when that happens they have to make another will save at -2 (due to intense pain) or recoil back out of the radius if they survive. Most undead after being burned a time or two are going to have some healthy respect for that radius and not cross it after being burned once. You could even include a type of morale save where after being burned once they have to make a will save at -4 or something like that to even approach the border of the radius again. This would I believe create tense scenes with the undead being held at bay just beyond the radius of the clerics power (perhaps that radius increases by 5' per level or something). It makes turning pretty powerful and perhaps there should be a rule allowing more powerful undead to resist the turning, there may already be a rule for this I don't have my book in front of me. Just some thoughts.
Charles
My thoughts exactly. Instead of "fleeing", have them be compelled to move out of that 30' radius, and stay out for 1d4+Cha rounds.since the current rule is that they flee from the caster for 1d4+CHA modifier rounds, why not just say the undead may not approach or attack the cleric for 1d4+Cha modifer rounds but otherwise may act normally?
The idea of making it an effect like sanctuary that allows saves each round sounds over complicated
I like this idea best - and it can work with fear as well. Rather than have someone flee "off the map", for turning, have them stay 30' away from the turner. For fear effects, have them stay 60' away from the source of their fear (+10' per difference in hit dice or something).
I have to ask.
If this is the tentative direction for channeling positive energy and its effect on undead what effect is negative energy going to have on the living when an evil cleric lets off with his Channel Energy ability?
If its to hold off or daze/stun the living wouldn't that make NPC evil clerics to powerful vs PCs?