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Ok I got a little confused when reading over the Beta book for Pathfinder RPG over elves.
As usual, the elves have uber long life spans. However, they are not saying that you cannot make an elf below the starting age for that class.
... someone want to tell me why not? Even though they don't reach "adulthood" in the community until after their first century, elves still mature as a human does. They just stop aging when they get in their early twenties.
So WHY again can't elves be a lower age? All my elves have pretty much never hit their first century when starting play, nor most in our party who plays an elf. I guess we figured "How would it take you 100 years to get to level 1?"
I know most of the time, in campaigns, age doesn't really come into play much. Its what makes the humans low life span not such a big deal. Still, when the rules actually say you CAN'T ... that sounds a little silly to me.
Could this either be fixed in the final version or a good explanation as to why?
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i think they mature and learn a lot slower too
more perfect but slower
for example the rogue iconic, Merisiel, is stated in her background to have lived long, leaving her human friends behind when they grow old or outliving them, and being mocked for leanrning slowly (they called her "not the shapers knife in the lot" reason why she decided to use LOTS of knifes to compensate for this inferiority issue and every problem she can't solve otherwise seh solves with knifes... I do like her, even if as a friend says, she is a "sad dog")
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i think they mature and learn a lot slower too
more perfect but slowerfor example the rogue iconic, Merisiel, is stated in her background to have lived long, leaving her human friends behind when they grow old or outliving them, and being mocked for leanrning slowly (they called her "not the shapers knife in the lot" reason why she decided to use LOTS of knifes to compensate for this inferiority issue and every problem she can't solve otherwise seh solves with knifes... I do like her, even if as a friend says, she is a "sad dog")
In Pathfinder's setting or are they trying to say in general? Cause in the Races of the Wild they work over this fact that elves reach maturity and everything at 20 or so, meaning they're ready for the adventuring lives. Just because of how they live, it doesn't work that way.
Then throw into account dwarf and drow society which trains them young, this stops making sense ...
In Tolkien's lore, we elves grow at about the same rate as humans. Think of the 1-century mark like the USA's drinking age (21). It's the age at which the rest of society finally lets You enjoy all the benefits of being an adult — even though You've already have been called upon to elect national leaders or potentially go off and die for Your nation by that point.
BTW, the 1-century mark is a prime reason for the existence of half-elves.
"32? Nooooo, You're far too young to go marrying another eldar my son!"
The elven lad storms off, wandering outside the watchful eyes of the forest to collect his thoughts. "My," thinks the son, "some of the human lasses I've seen are rather attractive... even if their ears are round. I'm sure no one will notice if I'm gone for a few decades..."
BTW, I would whole-heartedly agree with allowing elves to begin adventuring before their centennial. Other than being called upon now and again to go to war by their leige, or maybe hunting game in the woods, most NPCs do not adventure enough in order to gain the XP necessary to have believable levels. If You consider that there must be some sort of passive XP gain taking place (i.e. You learn something new every day). Then it's much more likely that a 16-18 year old human will still be 1st level rather than a 100-year old elf.
I think this is one of main reasons why we elves are always dripping with awesome-sauce anytime we appear in works of fantasy. Other than the racial benefits at first level and the longevity, it's simply a matter that Your average elf [who has reached the age of majority and can hold an actual office], has been gaining XP for several decades if not centuries. Even if this just as little as 1 xp a week, that would still put a 110-year old elf at nearly 4th level (fast XP), whereas a human would be 25 before reaching 2nd (using the same fast XP rate).
Assuming all things are equal (i.e. LA = 1, standard wealth by level), any 4th level character is going to be a lot more impressive and capable than a 1st level character regardless of race. Then again, maybe that's why we elves have such a high age of majority. Gotta keep up appearances and all. ;)
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i think they mature and learn a lot slower too
more perfect but slowerfor example the rogue iconic, Merisiel, is stated in her background to have lived long, leaving her human friends behind when they grow old or outliving them, and being mocked for leanrning slowly (they called her "not the shapers knife in the lot" reason why she decided to use LOTS of knifes to compensate for this inferiority issue and every problem she can't solve otherwise seh solves with knifes... I do like her, even if as a friend says, she is a "sad dog")
Take a look at Merisiel's INT at level one. In Pathfinder #1 it's listed as an 8. If 10-11 is average (about a 100 IQ) then that would put Merisiel around IQ 80, and it would take her longer to learn things.
As INT in one race is the same as INT in any other (ability scores are not relative to race), then it's absurd to think (not on your part, Montalve, but in general) that it would take a century longer for an elf to learn than a human. After all, once they start adventuring elves are capable of assimilating information at the same rate as anyone else. I've always chalked up the late start for elves adventuring to a cultural thing- elves are in no rush to do anything, so why shouldn't elven adolescence take a few decades? However, I've always allowed players, if it went with a background they created, to begin a character at an age in its late teens or early twenties.
Me, I refuse to acknowledge the take on elves in Races of the Wild. We still play with the fluff text from 2nd edition that basically says elves mature very slowly, not reaching adolescence until about age 70 or so. I don't know what the take on it is for Pathfinder, but I'm not likely to change that anytime soon in my games.
Since the 'adult' age listed for a human is 15(!), I'd assume that the 'adult' ages of characters really are the amount of time it takes to reach physical (and something resembling mental) maturity.
Furthermore, I'd assume that there something fundamental about the condition of 'childhood' that keeps you from earning levels. Sure, exceptions to this rule can exist (like child pickpockets having rogue levels), but they generally require something that forces the individual to grow up before their time, like being orphaned and fending for oneself.
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Since the 'adult' age listed for a human is 15(!), I'd assume that the 'adult' ages of characters really are the amount of time it takes to reach physical (and something resembling mental) maturity.
Furthermore, I'd assume that there something fundamental about the condition of 'childhood' that keeps you from earning levels. Sure, exceptions to this rule can exist (like child pickpockets having rogue levels), but they generally require something that forces the individual to grow up before their time, like being orphaned and fending for oneself.
The old 3rd and 3.5 edition books stated the same thing even though races of the wild came out to clear it up. I just can't see the elven races taking THAT long to grow up physically. Everything I've ever read with many elves (mainly R.A Salvatore) had their elves learning things even very young. Heck, Drizzt started training at 16. Then another elf girl was like 30 or 40 something and was on up there.
I guess if this IS the case in the Pathfinder world though, that they're like 10 for 40 years, thats going to be kind of a bummer. I always liked them at a younger age then what they state is their "mature" one but I'm also a huge fan of sticking to canon. Maybe one of the creators will clear this up in time ...
I'd like to point out the difference between physical and mental maturity.
An elf may look full grown at a younger age, say 50. But if their mind hasn't caught up: They're still a 'teenager' for 50 years.
I mean, I started going to school when I was 4. Doesn't mean I could have started an adventuring career at 6.
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I'd like to point out the difference between physical and mental maturity.
An elf may look full grown at a younger age, say 50. But if their mind hasn't caught up: They're still a 'teenager' for 50 years.
I mean, I started going to school when I was 4. Doesn't mean I could have started an adventuring career at 6.
Their mental maturity seemed pretty much on par with their age though.
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Take a look at Merisiel's INT at level one. In Pathfinder #1 it's listed as an 8. If 10-11 is average (about a 100 IQ) then that would put Merisiel around IQ 80, and it would take her longer to learn things.
ouch ok dint't saw her int... i am plaing that adventure... it would be bad form to readthe adventure and weare not using pre-generated chars
ok since beta she will receive a boost of int to 10 :D that is nice for her...
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Take a look at Merisiel's INT at level one. In Pathfinder #1 it's listed as an 8. If 10-11 is average (about a 100 IQ) then that would put Merisiel around IQ 80, and it would take her longer to learn things.ouch ok dint't saw her int... i am plaing that adventure... it would be bad form to readthe adventure and weare not using pre-generated chars
ok since beta she will receive a boost of int to 10 :D that is nice for her...
She'll be average for a human, but still somewhat slow-minded compared to most elves.
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The old 3rd and 3.5 edition books stated the same thing even though races of the wild came out to clear it up. I just can't see the elven races taking THAT long to grow up physically. Everything I've ever read with many elves (mainly R.A Salvatore) had their elves learning things even very young. Heck, Drizzt started training at 16. Then another elf girl was like 30 or 40 something and was on up there.
I guess if this IS the case in the Pathfinder world though, that they're like 10 for 40 years, thats going to be kind of a bummer. I always liked them at a younger age then what they state is their "mature" one but I'm also a huge fan of sticking to canon. Maybe one of the creators will clear this up in time ...
bad example... Drows mature faster, ebcause they are forced to mature faster.. also they live avarage lives of 400 years... mostly they die murdered one way or other... otherwise they will live as much as other elves
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She'll be average for a human, but still somewhat slow-minded compared to most elves.Take a look at Merisiel's INT at level one. In Pathfinder #1 it's listed as an 8. If 10-11 is average (about a 100 IQ) then that would put Merisiel around IQ 80, and it would take her longer to learn things.ouch ok dint't saw her int... i am plaing that adventure... it would be bad form to readthe adventure and weare not using pre-generated chars
ok since beta she will receive a boost of int to 10 :D that is nice for her...
i know i know, for a rogue she is quite short in the wits area...
ok even then she ahs a placeon my heart :)
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bad example... Drows mature faster, ebcause they are forced to mature faster.. also they live avarage lives of 400 years... mostly they die murdered one way or other... otherwise they will live as much as other elvesThe old 3rd and 3.5 edition books stated the same thing even though races of the wild came out to clear it up. I just can't see the elven races taking THAT long to grow up physically. Everything I've ever read with many elves (mainly R.A Salvatore) had their elves learning things even very young. Heck, Drizzt started training at 16. Then another elf girl was like 30 or 40 something and was on up there.
I guess if this IS the case in the Pathfinder world though, that they're like 10 for 40 years, thats going to be kind of a bummer. I always liked them at a younger age then what they state is their "mature" one but I'm also a huge fan of sticking to canon. Maybe one of the creators will clear this up in time ...
But the point is they CAN mature faster. My argument I'm bringing up is that its listed in the Pathfinder RPG book that you HAVE to choose the age listed on that chart. I know you can house rule it but the point of giving this feedback is to point out things I don't think make sense. At the very least just put them as recommended starting ages or something.
Many sources refer to an age when elves get their "wanderlust" or drive for adventure. Thus, an Elf could be forced into adventuring at a younger age but otherwise, they would not feel "ready" before the 100s.
In Victorian England, many orphans were street urchins, thieves and pick-pockets; a lifestyle much closer to one of an adventurer than most adults of this era. Yet, few player choose to play a 12 year old human rogue, or a 8 year old halfling sorcerer... Why should it be different for an Elf?
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But the point is they CAN mature faster. My argument I'm bringing up is that its listed in the Pathfinder RPG book that you HAVE to choose the age listed on that chart. I know you can house rule it but the point of giving this feedback is to point out things I don't think make sense. At the very least just put them as recommended starting ages or something.
Difference... Drows in Forgotten Realms... HAVE millenia doing that, its like sending your childern to work in the streets... they can do it... and in the end they will be pretty much more rpepared than normal people...
that is why Drows are LA +2!
i am with the person who said that in earleir editions it stated that they matured slowly
time pass slower... they ARE alien to US! why they shoul mature and learn atthe same rythm than humans, that is why they say in every book that they see humans not only as short lived but as if rushing their existance and full of passion, that is why elven nations are too slow to change, they are not prepared for that, that is why fast changes take them by surprice...
their outlook and perception for the world is absolutely different, their alien minds see differnt things, why should they mature the same as humans?
for what they tell you about Merisiel in her 1st level background she should be many levels up already, she is not.
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But the point is they CAN mature faster. My argument I'm bringing up is that its listed in the Pathfinder RPG book that you HAVE to choose the age listed on that chart. I know you can house rule it but the point of giving this feedback is to point out things I don't think make sense. At the very least just put them as recommended starting ages or something.Difference... Drows in Forgotten Realms... HAVE millenia doing that, its like sending your childern to work in the streets... they can do it... and in the end they will be pretty much more rpepared than normal people...
that is why Drows are LA +2!
i am with the person who said that in earleir editions it stated that they matured slowly
time pass slower... they ARE alien to US! why they shoul mature and learn atthe same rythm than humans, that is why they say in every book that they see humans not only as short lived but as if rushing their existance and full of passion, that is why elven nations are too slow to change, they are not prepared for that, that is why fast changes take them by surprice...
their outlook and perception for the world is absolutely different, their alien minds see differnt things, why should they mature the same as humans?
for what they tell you about Merisiel in her 1st level background she should be many levels up already, she is not.
Maybe. I do understand what everyone is saying, so I guess maybe what I'm really after is clarification from the boys upstairs how their elves age. If thats the way it is, then so be it and I will play by it. Like I said, I just like playing by canon too much not to.
As far as the story about Merisiel ... most peoples backstories are well above them only being lvl 1. The new adventure path especially with 2 out of 4 of them being likely beyond lvl 1 possibility. Thats the problem with lvl 1 though I guess heh.
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The fact that we're arguing about this just shows that humans are bad at thinking like non humans. We find it silly that a thinking being can be sentient and capable of learning for 50 years and not rise above childhood. But elves and men are not the same. Saying that an 18 year old human is the same as a 120 year old elf is silly. At best, it's like dog-years, a rough approximation.
And if you dog could talk, he'd be asking the same question: how can a human child take 18 years, as much as a long dog lifespan, to become an adult. Surely, mankind must mature at the same rate as dogs: fully grown in a year. They must just require more time to 'legally count' because we live so long.
Just because an elf doesn't look like a 12 year old when he's 30. He's physically able and ready if he gets the itch early.
I think the starting age reflects when different race get their "itch". Early for a human may be 15, early for an elf may be 80, or 90, or 100.
Besides, Victorian kids were trained as thieves because they were better at pick-pocketing and eluding the police than adults. We could argue that 12 years-old would be "mature" enough for the rogue class...
That being said, I wonder if the high starting age of elves is not just an old stigmata from previous AD&D editions. Spells like haste and wish do not cause the character to age anymore, so there may not be any reasons to prevent players to have an extra 90 buffer years to cast age-causing spells?
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Me, I refuse to acknowledge the take on elves in Races of the Wild. We still play with the fluff text from 2nd edition that basically says elves mature very slowly, not reaching adolescence until about age 70 or so. I don't know what the take on it is for Pathfinder, but I'm not likely to change that anytime soon in my games.
I am with you on this. We never acknowledged the third edition elven aging.
Ok, this is about the 4th thread of this kind that I've seen on these boards since I joined a few years ago. Why is it that in every instance [I've seen] that all the humans ignore the answer given by an actual elf? :-\
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The fact that we're arguing about this just shows that humans are bad at thinking like non humans. We find it silly that a thinking being can be sentient and capable of learning for 50 years and not rise above childhood. But elves and men are not the same. Saying that an 18 year old human is the same as a 120 year old elf is silly. At best, it's like dog-years, a rough approximation.
And if you dog could talk, he'd be asking the same question: how can a human child take 18 years, as much as a long dog lifespan, to become an adult. Surely, mankind must mature at the same rate as dogs: fully grown in a year. They must just require more time to 'legally count' because we live so long.
Not a matter of whats silly or not, I just want to know whats CANON or not. Whats their take on it? Are we ignoring the races of wild? Do they look 12 for 30 years? Its not a matter of thinking like a human as much as it is just wanting to know what is the ACTUAL age progression. If things got off that point, my bad, but thats my general beef I guess.
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The fact that we're arguing about this just shows that humans are bad at thinking like non humans.
On the contrary, it shows that we're capable of imagining a multitude of ways that a completely alien civilization and culture could behave. This is an examination of possibilities, not evidence of our limits.
I go old school with my elves. Races of the wild is awful and is really just a build up for the 200 years max age of 4e elves.The way I see it elves age slow i mean look at there life span they are not long lived humans dont make em act like they are. human is ok to go at 15 elves at 100 thats because there body and mind isnt ready till then there kids. they age slow they grow slow its part of being an elf. In pathfinder the forlorn are the ones who have aged slow in the human world without other elves to help them understand. I for one want to elves to stay elves and not long lived pointy eared humans.
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I go old school with my elves. Races of the wild is awful and is really just a build up for the 200 years max age of 4e elves.The way I see it elves age slow i mean look at there life span they are not long lived humans dont make em act like they are. human is ok to go at 15 elves at 100 thats because there body and mind isnt ready till then there kids. they age slow they grow slow its part of being an elf. In pathfinder the forlorn are the ones who have aged slow in the human world without other elves to help them understand. I for one want to elves to stay elves and not long lived pointy eared humans.
i fully agree, but Misary exposes a valid point... it would be nice to hear for a Canon answer on Golarion elves form the peoplea bove (anywaysi am doing like seeker of shadows and other exposed, my elves at 50 are kids)
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It should be pointed out that the "fluff" included in "Races of the Wild" is irrelevant, since the book isn't OGL and couldn't "officially" be applied to Golarian if they wanted to.
I'd like to think that the answer to this will be at least touched on in the next volume of the Pathfinder Companion.
Personally, while the alien nature of elves is a perfectly good explanation for why they are neither mentally or physically mature until a century of life, such a long road to adulthood practically requires that NO elves be raised within human communities.
The sheer amount of "stuff" to experience in such a community would cause serious consistency problems for an elf character starting at level 1, I think.
Since the 'adult' age listed for a human is 15(!)
I blame the FDA.
*grin* couldn't resist. On the topic, I say that it is all relative to culture, with the culture based on the perceptions of the race. Many lines aren't so clearly delineated. Was it not the standard (once upon a way back) that once a female was old enough to have children, they were considered 'adult'? Going by that same rule, if your race can live several hundreds of years, someone near the end of their lifespan would assume someone that is near the end of their first quarter of the "normal" lifespan of that race some know-nothing upstart? Unless they prove themselves capable of functioning near the level of their elders, they are not recognized accordingly.
That assumes the longevity of the race as the standard of measure. If you divided the lifespan of elves by ten, you would have the same average in humans, would you not? (*references* Ah, correction: divide by four.)
That accounts for the lifespan determining age. What about biology? (I cannot quite recall a discussion on elven biology mentioning when) Consider also, that Elves are so numerous now as to allow their perception of "adulthood" to be determined by their lifespan, rather than the age of sexual maturity. If they were less numerous, I suspect the numbers would change.
As for mental maturity, the stats cannot quite convey "adulthood" per se. *dons spectacles* The basic understanding of a creature can be generalized, perhaps? Fire=Hot, Water=Wet+Tasty/Necessary. Those concepts are easy, any "feral" type understands the basics and maybe a little more. So the higher reasoning is what eats up a lot of time. After all, Elven society is considered to be rather complex by comparison to human society, yes? So perhaps the education level is also the determinant, again returning to the ability to function as the adults do, and carry themselves in a manner that displays their competence within the society-- Takes years for humans, and layers of complexity with the society just add to the numbers.
All in all, I do hope I managed to convey what I was thinking, but do keep this in mind: We humans are perceiving it, so we will try to rationalize it in a manner that corresponds with what we understand.
*grin/wink* Individual results may(and often do) vary.
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I'm too lazy to go up but someone made a good point about an elf being raised by humans. That baby elf would cycle through 2 generations of human before he could leave the nest if he aged more slowly physically. Odd to think about O_o
Oh well, this won't get decided until someone above lets us know how the elves roll.
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I'm too lazy to go up but someone made a good point about an elf being raised by humans. That baby elf would cycle through 2 generations of human before he could leave the nest if he aged more slowly physically. Odd to think about O_o
Oh well, this won't get decided until someone above lets us know how the elves roll.
possibly the elven kid goes away after watching all his friends of youth dying...
that is why for saken elves live sad lives, everything they know and love dies so soon, comunities change so fast...
everything changes... except them...
now you see some perspective
Oh well, this won't get decided until someone above lets us know how the elves roll.
Alright that's it! Next level I'm going ranger and selecting Humans as my favored enemy. :P
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember well, in Dragonlance, Tanis Half-Elven and Laurana, were very close as sibling but as well as lover. But even if Laurana was older than her half-brother, Tanis took some distance from her for she was too childish as his human heritage made him mature faster than she was.
This might not correspond to Race of the wild, but I never considered the Races series as well :D
Could this either be fixed in the final version or a good explanation as to why?
How about this explaination: elven children cause cancer to other races. They have to be kept seperate from the other races or they'll give someone's grandmother elven cancer.
This Public Service Announcement should be all the proof someone needs about the danger of elves. Kobolds are a much better race.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember well, in Dragonlance, Tanis Half-Elven and Laurana, were very close as sibling but as well as lover. But even if Laurana was older than her half-brother, Tanis took some distance from her for she was too childish as his human heritage made him mature faster than she was.
This might not correspond to Race of the wild, but I never considered the Races series as well :D
anything recently made by WotC i don't take seriously
definitively i go with the clasicelves mature slowly, grow slowly... why rush eternity?
also WotC 3.5 sucks at this... they give elves 500 years of age?
iremember 2nd Ed rules stating 1200 +% and then... they don't die... they just grow tired and move back to their home
I still use them rules elves in any world I run live a long long time and don't die really they just fade from this plane to another becoming spirts shedding there bodes more or less. and yes anything wotc made with in the last oh 4 years i dont pay much mind to
but he believes himself to be a drow? why mess with us humans?
Did You just call me a Drow?! |\O_o/|