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Writer: (looking around and trying to hide from the possible hate and flames for just posting the word) ... is it safe?
Elf: ... no >_>
Writer: I just want to try and make a suggestion though?
Elf: ... no >_>
Writer: ... please?
Elf: ... >_> ... no.
Writer: T___T *sniffling*
Elf: Tch. If you're going to friggen cry just spit it out. No wonder your wife lives in regret
Writer: HURRAY!!! ... hey ... huh?
Elf: ... >_>
Writer: Anyway, I just wanted to throw out a suggestion for the drow that I started mentioning in a different thread and decided I wanted a general feedback for the new system.
Elf: (playing Soul Calibur 4) ... yea ... we're listening ... (plugs in head phones)
Writer: SUPER!! Well anyway, I know a lot of people hate or love drow. I get that. But I also know a lot of people aren't a big fan of level adjustments just to play the character they want. Well we have a few drow lovers in our gaming group ...
Elf: You mean YOU, and you're just trying to NOT have a line of people waiting to kick your face in?
Writer: ... could be >_> ... though I wouldn't be the only one. Plus I'm the DM. I don't get to have FUN. HAHAHAH!! Such a silly notion of making a character I want ... *dies a little inside*
Elf: Just shut up and move on.
Writer: Ok, well at least as far as the drow go, I hate to admit this but I looked over the 4th edition version of them and thought there were some things that could be worked with. Basically here's my run down.
Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, - 2 Con
Favored Class: Rogue and Wizard(Male)/Cleric (Female)
Darkvision 120 feet (might be an issue still since its double a dwarves)
Spell Like Abilities: I've been thinking over this one. I know all the core races got a nice boost in all around stuff so we might be able to keep dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. OR, maybe they have to choose between the three? If THATS the case maybe include levitation as a possible choice, iono.
Spell Resistance: Get rid of it. I mean maybe if you WANT to play a level adjustment drow you can play the old school, but a lot of us just want to play it for playing it, not for some uber bonuses. Maybe to supplement give them a +1 to all saving throws against spells and spell like abilities?
Skills: Open to suggestions. Maybe something to do with Stealth for sure but whatever else for bonuses, iono.
Weapons: Similar to elves I imagine.
Elf: ... so thats it?
Writer: I think so.
Elf: ... they're going to destroy you.
Writer: ... I know T___T
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Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, - 2 Con
Favored Class: Rogue and Wizard(Male)/Cleric (Female)
Darkvision 120 feet (might be an issue still since its double a dwarves)
sounds fine
but if you keep them with darkvision 120 feet, then they should get the -1 in all rolls in sunlight, only fairSpell Like Abilities: I've been thinking over this one. I know all the core races got a nice boost in all around stuff so we might be able to keep dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. OR, maybe they have to choose between the three? If THATS the case maybe include levitation as a possible choice, iono.
NO
dancing lights and Faerie Fire at mostDarkness is too powerful, Levite too... no to these two if you want to bring them to the level of core clases0
Spell Resistance: Get rid of...
Definitively, i will give them a +1 vs magic in general
Weapons: No they are not the same than elves... think in caves, the spaces are narrower, you can use a longbow or longsword in there...
rapier, hand crossbow, and any nifty evil looking Dagger they can get
maybe just maybe +2 to poison making and poison resistance
It would be easiest, I think, with the number of feat slots in Pathfinder, to make their more powerful abilities feats. Lots of feats in the 3.5 splatbooks give spell-like abilities.
I'd give them a choice of +2 Int or +2 Wis based on gender. Elves shouldn't be better wizards than male drow.
Maybe a feat to give them +2 vs spells and spell-like effects.
For weapons, give them short sword (a thrusting weapon that is finessable) and hand crossbow.
Also need a feat for poison use, though I think there is already a feat out there somewhere.
On top of that, you could use the drow paragon class if you want to pump up your drowness without LA.
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Drow: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, - 2 Con
Favored Class: Rogue and Wizard(Male)/Cleric (Female)
Darkvision 120 feet (might be an issue still since its double a dwarves)sounds fine
but if you keep them with darkvision 120 feet, then they should get the -1 in all rolls in sunlight, only fairSpell Like Abilities: I've been thinking over this one. I know all the core races got a nice boost in all around stuff so we might be able to keep dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. OR, maybe they have to choose between the three? If THATS the case maybe include levitation as a possible choice, iono.NO
dancing lights and Faerie Fire at most
Darkness is too powerful, Levite too... no to these two if you want to bring them to the level of core clases0Spell Resistance: Get rid of...Definitively, i will give them a +1 vs magic in general
Weapons: No they are not the same than elves... think in caves, the spaces are narrower, you can use a longbow or longsword in there...
rapier, hand crossbow, and any nifty evil looking Dagger they can get
maybe just maybe +2 to poison making and poison resistance
I was kind of thinking the same thing myself but forgot to include that in my rant with Darkvision. If it IS at 120, keep the penalty for daylight and maybe 1 round blindness. I think the 120 should stick around IF you HAVE been crawling around the lightless worlds forever, but in comes blinding problems.
Also, spell like abilities I completely agree. Faerie Fire and Dancing lights to me were neat things at times, but never really a fight make or breaker usually. Levitate I know is drow old school but the balance issue loses focus fast. Maybe at MOST for some people, like at lvl 11 you can get a feat to increase your spell like abilities, but I'm not so certain that would keep things balanced.
Weapons is a good case. Hand Crossbow, rapier, short swords, daggers, etc etc. Thanks for the input and not the drow bash.
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It would be easiest, I think, with the number of feat slots in Pathfinder, to make their more powerful abilities feats. Lots of feats in the 3.5 splatbooks give spell-like abilities.
I'd give them a choice of +2 Int or +2 Wis based on gender. Elves shouldn't be better wizards than male drow.Maybe a feat to give them +2 vs spells and spell-like effects.
For weapons, give them short sword (a thrusting weapon that is finessable) and hand crossbow.
Also need a feat for poison use, though I think there is already a feat out there somewhere.
On top of that, you could use the drow paragon class if you want to pump up your drowness without LA.
Thats a good example of how to boost into a more typical drow by using the paragon class. Its something I had looked over and would be a viable choice for people who want a drow's drow.
Something confusing though, why wouldn't normal elves be just as good if not better then drow at wizardry? Not saying that maybe throwing in a +2 to int or wis over cha isn't an option.
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ACTUALLY, there might have been an answer to my issue of non level adjustment drow in the Shadow in the Sky Pathfinder book.
The drow are actually transformed sometimes from normal elves due to evil or hate in their hearts. Simply speaking ... they could have transformed but not retain all the powers of the usual drow. Basically ... dark skinned, white haired elves. Change low light vision to darkvision 60 ft and your done.
Possible viable option. I would just like to see a canon, official something on the drow since even the folks here at Paizo have admitted that drow sell.
I say forget Drow altogether. Ghost Elves!!!
Best. Elven. Subrace. Ever.
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Reiterating what's been said:
A dip in Bard, Cleric, or Sor/Wiz provides great 0-level SLAs to make up for some of the lost Drow SLAs.
Spell Resistance would be lost if they left the UnderNotLightness, but a +1 on Saves v. Magic sounds reasonable -- but only if the Darkvision is cut back to 60' _and_ they suffer Light Blindness, otherwise Low Light Vision with no penalty. 'sides any decent Drow will just take Blind Fighting anyway. ;)
I would rather see them with Rapiers than Short Swords, but if they were written with the short buggers, I'd just GM Fiat them to Rapiers anyway.
I don't think that all Drow need to have Poison-handling abilities.
Also, I think Sorcerers with their Bloodlines would make equally interesting choices (rather than always Wizard), given the Infernal and other weirdness in which that race has been depicted as partaking.
W00T! Drow party. ;)
Why would drow suffer light penalty if their darkvision is only 60ft? Thats the same as a dwarves.
Well you can guess what my favourite race is. :D
After reading the what others have to say, here is my version to make an AL 0 Drow.
Basic elf characteristics with following changes
+2 Dex, -2 Con as with the typical elf. Then add +2 Int for male, and +2 for female. It never made sense to me to have +2 Cha, when the Drow favourite classes are Cleric (female) or Wizard (male), and Fighter (though usually males).
Dark Vision of 120' considering they evolved to adapt to the darkness. Definitely include Daylight penalties for bright light.
+1 vs general magic
Weapons would be hand crossbows, short sword or rapier, dagger, and short spear. These are suitable for tight combat spaces, and short ranged attacks.
Faerie Fire 1/day
Languages replace Common with Undercommon,
Have Drow paragon levels to increase Drow special abilities, in effect re adding the AL of 1, considering in PF the Drow has AL of 1.
Paragon levels features:
Darkness 1/day
Dancing Lights 1/day
SR based on character level
Poison handling and resistance +2
etc
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i would say no magical abilities, yes to magical defense (but only slightly +1 to saving throws)
120 feet dark vision, but always bright light penalties until they get a feat that solves that (more racial feats)
Drows are the masters of the underdark its just logical they see farther
To date probably the most solid go at it. I'm a big fan of just giving the finger to all the spell like abilities. Its the benefit of this being a whole different world with no novels out as of yet for it (by the way, I would STRONGLY encourage novels for this setting if they aren't considering it already. Novels can build an even bigger base).
I know this whole new adventure path they got going on is drow and they'll be using old stats, but that can be later redone to take into account these new rules when they get finalized.
Drow (whether people like it or not) do sell and a lot of people like them. So why not make them a LA 0 so people CAN without having to sac lvls?
As for the guy who posted below you, I can see them sacking CHA for INT or WIS, depending on female or male.
... on a side note though. Why is it with Wisdom being the cleric key stat and the female drow being big on clericalness, they have no common sense to stop destroying their own society ... I wonder.
Then again, thats in PAST worlds. Maybe path finder will do MORE with them and truly make them a scary race again.
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for what i have seen, yeah they canmake really scary drows
and that is novels thing, the company in charge asked the protrayal of the drow in a way andso the writers did as they were asked for...
lets seewhat we get for golarion in the end
and Drows sell because every one want to be a Drizzt Duarte(yes mocking how the name sounds :P)
i myself would go just for int or wis, while i like cha... i see them more scarier than charismatic... and i will leave that as the province for individuals
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for what i have seen, yeah they canmake really scary drows
and that is novels thing, the company in charge asked the protrayal of the drow in a way andso the writers did as they were asked for...
lets seewhat we get for golarion in the end
and Drows sell because every one want to be a Drizzt Duarte(yes mocking how the name sounds :P)
i myself would go just for int or wis, while i like cha... i see them more scarier than charismatic... and i will leave that as the province for individuals
Actually, I mean Drizzt is cool enough and all but I like my drow bad, not good. I refuse to play a good drow. CN is fun enough but thats about as GOOD as I'm getting.
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ACTUALLY, there might have been an answer to my issue of non level adjustment drow in the Shadow in the Sky Pathfinder book.
Was that based on something you saw in there, or just a guess? I was skimming through and I didn't see anything about adjusting drow in there but I might have missed it. If they have a note anywhere, I would be very curious to see it.
-Tarlane
In my homebrew, which I rarely run these days, I solved the "good drow" problem by having all elves be the same race. Evil elves were dark skinned, good drow grey skinned, all had white hair. Alignment change changed the character's color.
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In my homebrew, which I rarely run these days, I solved the "good drow" problem by having all elves be the same race. Evil elves were dark skinned, good drow grey skinned, all had white hair. Alignment change changed the character's color.
that is evil!!!
niceand yes i have meet a few years ago...
i even once did a half-drow cleric of kelemvor... but it was just a normal half-elf with darkerskin :P
Favored Class: Rogue and Wizard(Male)/Cleric (Female)
I was thinking that subraces should be limited to one favored class, perhaps one per gender for dysfunctional races like the drow. To me, limiting subraces to one favored class emphasizes the 'sub' part.
Spell resistance could be a feat progression, or just a feat that only works in the Underdark.
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I was thinking that subraces should be limited to one favored class, perhaps one per gender for dysfunctional races like the drow. To me, limiting subraces to one favored class emphasizes the 'sub' part.
Spell resistance could be a feat progression, or just a feat that only works in the Underdark.
why?
we already downgraded many of their features, why also punish them when they are part of a socety with many many millenia of existing...
and the idea to emphasize the "sub" sounds like you have some problem with them or are trying to make them less... (when originally a single drow could handle easily 3 or 4 elves of the same level)
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Might be neat to make a Sorcerer Bloodline feat or Wizardly / Priestly feat of some sort that a Drow spellcaster could take to add the darkness, faerie fire, levitate combo to the spell-list of whatever spell-casting classes they have, to allow any Drow spellcaster to be able to mimic these iconic abilities, without any old Drow Fighter or Rogue necessarily having these abilities.
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ACTUALLY, there might have been an answer to my issue of non level adjustment drow in the Shadow in the Sky Pathfinder book.Was that based on something you saw in there, or just a guess? I was skimming through and I didn't see anything about adjusting drow in there but I might have missed it. If they have a note anywhere, I would be very curious to see it.
-Tarlane
Nothing stat wise but something they say happens to *bad elves* in that book could easily be made to just make a drow with elven stuff but swapping darkvision for low light. Thats all.
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In the Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms there is a feat drow can take, Highborn Drow I believe, that allows enhances the drow spell-like abilities to include levitate and a couple of other minor spells.
Awesome. An option to capture the 'old-school' Drow feel, without having to worry about adding it to every rank-and-file Drow and driving the LA further through the roof. :)
+2 Dex, -2 Con as with the typical elf. Then add +2 Int for male, and +2 for female. It never made sense to me to have +2 Cha, when the Drow favourite classes are Cleric (female) or Wizard (male), and Fighter (though usually males).
Dark Vision of 120' considering they evolved to adapt to the darkness. Definitely include Daylight penalties for bright light.
+1 vs general magic
Weapons would be hand crossbows, short sword or rapier, dagger, and short spear. These are suitable for tight combat spaces, and short ranged attacks.
Faerie Fire 1/day
Languages replace Common with Undercommon,
Have Drow paragon levels to increase Drow special abilities, in effect re adding the AL of 1, considering in PF the Drow has AL of 1.
Paragon levels features:
Darkness 1/day
Dancing Lights 1/day
SR based on character level
Poison handling and resistance +2
etc
This thread is useful. I have a player who is a drow and we are about to make the switch to PFRPG. I think there is a pretty simple and elegant way to fix the LA of the drow, and I think that is to simply move all the big stuff to racial feats (something that is unfortunately under used in pathfinder rpg). Here's mine:
Drow
+2 Dex, +2 Int (Males), +2 Wis (Females), -2 Con
Medium: Drow are medium and do not suffer penalty for their size.
Normal Speed: Drow have a base speed of 30 feet
Darkvision 120 ft: Drow can see 120 feet in complete darkness.
Light Blind: If exposed to a sudden bright light, such as a Daylight spell, Drow suffer -2 to attacks and skill checks while in the radius of the spell.
Keen Senses: Drow receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks.
Drow Magic: Drow with a Charisma 11 of better, gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- dancing lights, faerie fire
Drow Weapons: Shortsword, hand-crossbow, and dagger
Magic Resistance: +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities.
Favored Class: Wizard (male)/cleric (female); or fighter. This must be chosen at level 1 and can not be changed.
Extra Magic Resistance [Racial Feat]
As a Drow you gain spell resistance 5 + character level. This feat can only be taken at level 1.
High Born Drown [Racial Feat]
Your family comes from a long line of Drow houses, skilled with magic. you gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- Darkness, levitate This feat can only be taken at level 1.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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From reading the FR Drow Novels, Drow Females are bigger and stronger than Drow Males and I believe most Elves in general. Therefore I would give them the following stats:
Males: +2 DEX +2 INT -2 CON
Females: +2 STR +2 (WIS or CHA) -2 CON
Keep the general Elven defecit of -CON, but change the + to suit the Gender.
Favoured Class:
Male: Wizard or Fighter
Female: Cleric or Wizard
Drow are one of the races that have a very definate Gender split and I think that they deserve a differing focus dependent on this. Most races can be said to have a Gender split, but in most races it is relatively minor. Drow seem to be one of the few that show a major split in ability.
EDIT:
I thought that levitation was tied to the piwafwi (is that how its spelled?) rather than any racial ability. I know that darkness was an innate ability, but I'm pretty sure levitate was tied to those magic cloaks that all the noble drow carried around.
Originally, Drow had Levitate as a Racial Ability. Then suddenly it disappeared from their Racial Abilities (I assume with 3.0, but I missed 3.0 entirely, so I can't be sure) and to compensate most of the FR Drow Novels tied it into the Drow's House Insignia (not the Piwafwi). If you had a House Insignia (the proper House Insignia that Blood Members of the Family carry, not the ones that just denote which House you are from) then you could use it to Levitate, if not then you couldn't.
and the idea to emphasize the "sub" sounds like you have some problem with them or are trying to make them less... (when originally a single drow could handle easily 3 or 4 elves of the same level)
I mean to restrict their favored classes to make them more focused. Emphasizing the "sub" to mean "this is a subsection of a larger race". Making their favored class more limited, and making the race trend a bit more to the stereotypical, doesn't reduce their power.
If the male favored class is wizard and the female favored class is cleric, then you could still have drow society with fighter's societies and rogues in the shadows, but you'd expected wizards and clerics to be politically dominant.
My SR suggestion was trying to offer an idea to people who wanted to keep drow LA+0, which you can't do with 11+level SR. I kind of like the idea of drow SR being tied into Underdark radiation, so the drow coming permanently back up to the surface start losing an edge...
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I thought that levitation was tied to the piwafwi (is that how its spelled?) rather than any racial ability. I know that darkness was an innate ability, but I'm pretty sure levitate was tied to those magic cloaks that all the noble drow carried around.
Nah, that was a Salvatore invention. The drow had darkness, faerie fire and dancing lights 1/day, some drow over 4th level had detect magic, levitate and know alignment 1/day and drow females had clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion and dispel magic 1/day.
Their cloaks and boots acted as cloaks and boots of elvenkind, but with a 75% hide/move silently chance.
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I mean to restrict their favored classes to make them more focused. Emphasizing the "sub" to mean "this is a subsection of a larger race". Making their favored class more limited, and making the race trend a bit more to the stereotypical, doesn't reduce their power.
If the male favored class is wizard and the female favored class is cleric, then you could still have drow society with fighter's societies and rogues in the shadows, but you'd expected wizards and clerics to be politically dominant.
My SR suggestion was trying to offer an idea to people who wanted to keep drow LA+0, which you can't do with 11+level SR. I kind of like the idea of drow SR being tied into Underdark radiation, so the drow coming permanently back up to the surface start losing an edge...
i see, ok that is quite understandable, even then the wizards and clerics needs specialiced cannon fother (asisde than the slave cannon fodder) to sent forward, and someone whose nature is in his job does it a bit better than regular grunts
but you have a point
ayes, we thinkt hat spell resistance at least for players should go away, as a sorcerer path or a racial feat it would be nice, (maybedivided in two parts... firstgives you 5 + level, 2nd 11 + level)
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I mean to restrict their favored classes to make them more focused. Emphasizing the "sub" to mean "this is a subsection of a larger race". Making their favored class more limited, and making the race trend a bit more to the stereotypical, doesn't reduce their power.
If the male favored class is wizard and the female favored class is cleric, then you could still have drow society with fighter's societies and rogues in the shadows, but you'd expected wizards and clerics to be politically dominant.
My SR suggestion was trying to offer an idea to people who wanted to keep drow LA+0, which you can't do with 11+level SR. I kind of like the idea of drow SR being tied into Underdark radiation, so the drow coming permanently back up to the surface start losing an edge...
i see, ok that is quite understandable, even then the wizards and clerics needs specialiced cannon fother (asisde than the slave cannon fodder) to sent forward, and someone whose nature is in his job does it a bit better than regular grunts
but you have a point
ayes, we thinkt hat spell resistance at least for players should go away, as a sorcerer path or a racial feat it would be nice, (maybedivided in two parts... firstgives you 5 + level, 2nd 11 + level)
I agree with just ditching SR. Its a very powerful ability (probably the bulk of the usual +2 level adjustment), but for a player its just one more thing keeping them 2 levels behind the group. I mean a lot of people (my group included) just like the drow for the rp prospects (no one's played a GOOD drow yet) and is willing to get rid of a lot of things they get to get rid of the LA +2
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Favored Class: Wizard (male)/cleric (female); or fighter. This must be chosen at level 1 and can not be changed.
No. This would effectively give them 3 Favored classes. I am not a fan of the sex based FC. It should have two: cleric and wizard (or rogue -> imho). Then, just explain that only women are generally priests (of Lolth). This is similar to the hang-ups people had during the switch to 3e where all of a sudden you could have dwarven wizards and halfling monks etc.
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We have bent over backwards to have a gender-neutral depiction of most races (no lower Str or higher Con for female humans, for instance), and gender-neutral favored classes (female Dwarves are still Fighters, etc.), so it might make sense to ditch the male/female split for Drow, given that this is a world-without-Lolth. Maybe some Drow groups are matriarchal, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be built like bodybuilders or have favored class Cleric.
It's not like the never-seen-out-of-the-home Dwarven females (at least not in D&D artwork) have Favored Class Suzy Homemaker or different stats than the Dwarven males.
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its a cultural thing
its not like putting a drow female as head honcho ofher home city or as cleric is debasing them :P
or are you feeling intimidated by the big badass drow cleric? :P
its cultural thing, its like Amazons being ruled by men... its just a ridiculous concept
anyway if people want their drow cities ruled by men,its their decision and no one stop thems :D
Creative Director
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You would be my hero for the year of 2009. Like the WHOLE year ... well till that Wolverine movie comes out. Still, thats like 5 good months :DHas there been any news if they're gonna keep the LA?No news yet. I'm still in favor of eliminating LA and figuring out something better, though.
Note: not every movie with wolverine in it has been worth watching. Just sayin'.
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Note: not every movie with wolverine in it has been worth watching. Just sayin'.You would be my hero for the year of 2009. Like the WHOLE year ... well till that Wolverine movie comes out. Still, thats like 5 good months :DHas there been any news if they're gonna keep the LA?No news yet. I'm still in favor of eliminating LA and figuring out something better, though.
A boy's gotta keep his dream alive.
Has there been any news if they're gonna keep the LA?No news yet. I'm still in favor of eliminating LA and figuring out something better, though.
I really like Arcana Evolved's system of racial levels that are optional for characters. They act much like the Paragon levels from Unearthed Arcana, except you assume creature's in the monster manual take them.
This thread is useful. I have a player who is a drow and we are about to make the switch to PFRPG. I think there is a pretty simple and elegant way to fix the LA of the drow, and I think that is to simply move all the big stuff to racial feats (something that is unfortunately under used in pathfinder rpg). Here's mine:
Drow
+2 Dex, +2 Int (Males), +2 Wis (Females), -2 Con
Medium: Drow are medium and do not suffer penalty for their size.
Normal Speed: Drow have a base speed of 30 feet
Darkvision 120 ft: Drow can see 120 feet in complete darkness.
Light Blind: If exposed to a sudden bright light, such as a Daylight spell, Drow suffer -2 to attacks and skill checks while in the radius of the spell.
Keen Senses: Drow receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks.Drow Magic: Drow with a Charisma 11 of better, gain the following spell-like abilities: 1/day -- dancing lights, faerie fire
Drow Weapons: Shortsword, hand-crossbow, and dagger
Magic Resistance: +2 racial bonus on Will...
This seems to sum up the original portrayal of the drow pretty well. As for levitate having anything to do with cloaks, that's something Salvatore thought up. The original drow could just do it. Their cloaks were effectively cloaks of elven kind and their armor was elven chain.
Favored Class: Wizard (male)/cleric (female); or fighter. This must be chosen at level 1 and can not be changed.No. This would effectively give them 3 Favored classes. I am not a fan of the sex based FC. It should have two: cleric and wizard (or rogue -> imho). Then, just explain that only women are generally priests (of Lolth). This is similar to the hang-ups people had during the switch to 3e where all of a sudden you could have dwarven wizards and halfling monks etc.
I'm all for the male drow's favored class being wizard and the female's being cleric. I'd ditch the fighter part. But that's just me. Fits the drow I know and love/hate well.
*shakes his cane*When I was your age, we had to hike two miles through a foot of snow to fight a drow cleric, dag nabit!