OK, I've got to talk about this:
Halflings treat weapons with the word "halfling" in it as a martial weapon. They are proficient in slings.
A) There are no weapons with "halfling" in the name.
B) Slings are simple weapons. The only class that can't use them (inexplicably) are wizards.
My suggestion would be to have halflings proficient in either the net or bolas. Alternately, they can treat these as martial weapons. I could also - possibly - see them proficient in hand crossbows.
My second topic here is about humans. I'm one of those who also disagree with having them be able to pick a martial weapon. Humans already gain a free feat at lvl 1, which they can use to become proficient in a martial weapon if they so with. I have trouble with the notion that Joe Dirtfarmer is highly familiar with the exquisite art of two-handed katana weilding.
-Steve Bennett
A) There are no weapons with "halfling" in the name.What about Halfling Skipstones and Halfling Warslings?
What sourcebook? It's certainly not core.
-Steve Bennett
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Oh sure make me look up sourcebooks. I don't recall of the top of my head and no they are not core. Without quick access to my library I'm going to guess Arms & Equipment and Races of the Wild likely were the sources.
I know skipstones because I've seen two characters who relied on them heavily, and the warsling sits in my brain because I remember thinking "hey that would work well with a skipstone".
Oh sure make me look up sourcebooks. I don't recall of the top of my head and no they are not core. Without quick access to my library I'm going to guess Arms & Equipment and Races of the Wild likely were the sources.
Races of the Wild is where you'll find the Halfling weapons.
Well, that's the problem then. A core class racial ability relies on books that you might not even own, and shouldn't have to have to play the game properly.
-Steve
Well, that's the problem then. A core class racial ability relies on books that you might not even own, and shouldn't have to have to play the game properly.
-Steve
backwards compatibility :P
also there is a great possibility there are such weapons in Pathfinder Campaign Setting
This has nothing to do with backwards compatability. Halfling Weapon Familiarity is not in the SRD and not part of 3.5. If there are halfling weapons in the Pathfinder setting, then they should be included in the initial equipment release. Not everyone wants to buy every expansion book that comes out, and they shouldn't have to in order to play the game. Having one of the core races with a trait that's unusable out of the box doesn't make much sense.
-Steve
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ok but if they have this books then they would use it like that.
also the weapons learned by halflings in 3.5 were limited just to sling (i think)
now if in your campaign setting their cultura baggage include bolas... ok they now use bolas as simple weapons :)
aside i don't like halflings at all... except for Belkar :D
Why do halflings keep their +1 to hit with slings from AD&D 1st and 2nd edition, when elves lost theirs with bows ?
How comes halflings have an innate combat bonus, while the "war" races (humans, dwarves, elves, orcs) don't ?
It should be either proficiency with one or two weapons or +1 combat bonus for each race.
But on the other side, why should a race get a stereotype combat bonus ?
Halfling farmers are not slingers, elven menestrels are not archers, dwarven priests are not axe warriors...
In my opinion it goes better as a racial feat for the martial classes of each race.
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Subversive is right about this. Whether you like halflings in paticular or not is irrelevant. If a race gets automatic proficiency with racial weapons, it needs some racial weapons in the same book that the race itself is published in. Otherwise, it's like having a video game console, but no games to play on it.
ok but if they have this books then they would use it like that.
also the weapons learned by halflings in 3.5 were limited just to sling (i think)
now if in your campaign setting their cultura baggage include bolas... ok they now use bolas as simple weapons :)
aside i don't like halflings at all... except for Belkar :D
Yeah, kind of ironic the topic of the post and my avatar. I didn't even realize it until now, myself. :p
My problems with your idea are thus:
First, as has been stated more then several times on these boards, James can't really take non SRD material in account with the design. The books that mention things like skipdisks and warslings are all from expansions or setting materials. Not everyone has them.
Second, leaving a basic aspect of one of your core races essentially unusable until an expansion comes along doesn't make sense. Halflings are a popular race with many. Heck, they're probably more popular than Gnomes, and you know the uproar that happened when Gnomes got moved to the MM for 4.0. Beyond that, they *are* *core*. They should be fully functional out of the gate. It's pretty easy to solve. Just add in a weapon that says "halfling." in front of it
But, yeah, having slings as an automatic weapon still doesn't make sense to me. Make it bolas or something.
-Steve
Director of Games
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It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Would a weapon similar to the kender sling staff (I forget its real name...) be viable? Or would that be too close to copyrighted material (the Dragonlance setting, which I assume is still owned by WoTC)?
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It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason, the obvious answer to me would be some sort of throwing weapon, either a stone or a knife of some type. Maybe a "Halfling Finger Dart", designed to be concealed in between two fingers, that grants the +4 bonus of a dart or shruiken when trying to conceal it with Sleight of Hand. d4 at Medium, but of course Halflings only use the d3 Small version, with a 20/x3 Critical and a 20' range. 1 gp cost.
So basically just a dart with a x3 critical and double the base cost, in other words.
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Would a weapon similar to the kender sling staff (I forget its real name...) be viable? Or would that be too close to copyrighted material (the Dragonlance setting, which I assume is still owned by WoTC)?
Also, I just noticed that halflings do not get the +1 bonus to slings and thrown weapons. Why was that deleted?
Hoopaks? God, no, please, no more kender! (Too much bad personal experience with Kender players - note I said players, not characters. Every time I played 2e Dragonlance I died as a result of a Kender "borrowing" something of mine that I ended up needing really badly - spellbook, holy symbol, even my Solamnic knight's sword.... though I never quite figured out how the thieving little rat pulled that one off...)
Anyway, all my personal hatred of kender aside, the hoopak might be an option. Staff slings were in the 2e PHB. Lesser range but superior rate of fire compared to a regular sling.
And where is the halfling thrown weapon bonus? Sling and "Halfling" weapon proficiency doesn't cut it, in comparison.
Hoopaks? God, no, please, no more kender! (Too much bad personal experience with Kender players - note I said players, not characters. Every time I played 2e Dragonlance I died as a result of a Kender "borrowing" something of mine that I ended up needing really badly - spellbook, holy symbol, even my Solamnic knight's sword.... though I never quite figured out how the thieving little rat pulled that one off...)
I always liked kender in the books (Tasselhoff), but when I played 2e Dragonlance the DM would never let me play a kender...probably because of events similar to your experience above. So, yes, definately, no more kender...
Anyway, all my personal hatred of kender aside, the hoopak might be an option. Staff slings were in the 2e PHB. Lesser range but superior rate of fire compared to a regular sling.
I think you're right. I'll have to dig out my 2e PHB in the closet someday (at least for old times' sake)...
Do you think this means they are safe to use, as long as they are called "halfling staff slings" (assuming the designers want them as "halfling" weapons).
Jason, the obvious answer to me would be some sort of throwing weapon, either a stone or a knife of some type. Maybe a "Halfling Finger Dart", designed to be concealed in between two fingers, that grants the +4 bonus of a dart or shruiken when trying to conceal it with Sleight of Hand. d4 at Medium, but of course Halflings only use the d3 Small version, with a 20/x3 Critical and a 20' range. 1 gp cost.
So basically just a dart with a x3 critical and double the base cost, in other words.
Cool idea! I think the name fits it as well.
It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Pathfinder halflings are nomadic. With their lower base movement, it would stand to reason that they would be a herding and riding race, relying on mounts to move from one location to another. They would probably also seek to develop a weapon that would immobilize or hamper the movement of opponents.
I suggested having halflings proficient in the bolas. Why not make "halfling bolas" that can be used to deal non-subdual damage? Traditionally, this weapon is used for herding and cattle or horse wrangling, and would make sense for a nomadic people, especially a race that has a preference for thrown weapons.
-Steve
If rubber exists and is extracted in Golarion, then halflings could use slingshots.
The weapon is associated with images of stupid kids shooting at stupid things, which fits halflings.
And it's also a cheap weapon, easy to hide.
I would suggest granting halflings a racial proficiency in either shortbows or throwing axes. Shortbows would be more 'village militia'-ish.
I could see some sort of shortbows too. Call them Halfling Horsebows, or Halfling Riding Bows.
Still like a halfling bolas tho. I like the idea of semi-feral halflings subduing and swarming over some halpless trespasser on their hunting ranges. >:)
-Steve
I'd like to comment that this rule provides FORWARD compatibility. As is, paizo could put a 'Dwarven Anvil-cannon' in a new book and dwarves could automatically use it. It would be nice to be able to dot he same thing with Halflings without needing to attach special proficency rules to new items.
That said, I agree that at least one halfling weapon should be added (like how the Elvish Curveblade was). I'd suggest an exotic sling with more damage or an x3 crit. A small sling does so little damage its almost not worth using. A better one would help halflings a lot, at least in the 'defending from tallfolk' vibe.
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I suggested having halflings proficient in the bolas. Why not make "halfling bolas" that can be used to deal non-subdual damage? Traditionally, this weapon is used for herding and cattle or horse wrangling, and would make sense for a nomadic people, especially a race that has a preference for thrown weapons.
-Steve
Halfling Bolas would be cool. Maybe up the range to 20' as well as being able to deal real damage, otherwise it's not really that impressive for an exotic or racial weapon.
Halfling Bolas would be cool. Maybe up the range to 20' as well as being able to deal real damage, otherwise it's not really that impressive for an exotic or racial weapon.
Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking.
The usual range of bolas are 10 ft. I think to double it, along with the change to standard damage, would be a little more then is necessary, especially when you include the ranged trip attack ability, which as a ranged weapon makes it pretty potent when used right.
-Steve
Call them Halfling Horsebows, or Halfling Riding Bows.
Riding bows. Halflings ride dogs, not horses.
Call them Halfling Horsebows, or Halfling Riding Bows.Riding bows. Halflings ride dogs, not horses.
Always thought that was sort of dumb.
:p
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It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I know Halflings have traditionally been throwers, but really, with their exceedingly low strength would a Halfling want to rely on something that requires brute force to operate correctly? It's because of this that I am not a huge fan of the "traditional" weapons Halflings are associated with; they just don't make sense to me.
I would think that the Halfling race would try to overcome this limitation if anything, and might invent something that would work as well as the "big people weapons" but not require the same strength to wield properly. Perhaps a slingshot or halfling-specific bow would be most appropriate for the race.
I would think that the Halfling race would try to overcome this limitation if anything, and might invent something that would work as well as the "big people weapons" but not require the same strength to wield properly. Perhaps a slingshot or halfling-specific bow would be most appropriate for the race.
Perhaps a special halfing sling that won't transmit a strength penalty?
Halfling Blowgun?
A blowgun isn't a thrown weapon, but I like the idea as a racial weapon.
-Steve
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Looks like we've got some good ideas for halfling weapons, here. So far, we've got:
halfling blowgun
halfling bolas
halfling boomerang*
halfling finger dart
halfling riding bow
halfling slingshot
halfling staff-sling*My addition to the list.
Did I miss any?
I seem to recall seeing net in the discussion but it may have been in another thread.
The most promising of the list for a Halfling exotic weapon (without defining what they do) seem to be boomerang, slingshot and staff-sling. Bolas and nets already appear on the exotic weapon list. Blowgun, darts and short bows already exist but could be added to the Halfling weapon familiarity list.
Sounds like we are on the right track but we need to be mindful that other races might use the weapon too. The larger sizes will do more damage.
I seem to recall seeing net in the discussion but it may have been in another thread.
The most promising of the list for a Halfling exotic weapon (without defining what they do) seem to be boomerang, slingshot and staff-sling. Bolas and nets already appear on the exotic weapon list. Blowgun, darts and short bows already exist but could be added to the Halfling weapon familiarity list.
Sounds like we are on the right track but we need to be mindful that other races might use the weapon too. The larger sizes will do more damage.
I considered the possibility fo a net, but discarded it in favor of bolas since nets just don't really work well in D&D in my opinion. Halfling bolas would obviously be a little different from standard ones, similar to "Dwarven Waraxes." It's true that they already appear on the exotic weapons list, however, but I suspect it's because they deal effects that aren't directly related to damage.
Heck, a Kama's basically a sickle. Why not?
-Steve
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Pathfinder halflings are nomadic. With their lower base movement, it would stand to reason that they would be a herding and riding race, relying on mounts to move from one location to another. They would probably also seek to develop a weapon that would immobilize or hamper the movement of opponents.I suggested having halflings proficient in the bolas. Why not make "halfling bolas" that can be used to deal non-subdual damage? Traditionally, this weapon is used for herding and cattle or horse wrangling, and would make sense for a nomadic people, especially a race that has a preference for thrown weapons.
-Steve
Kind of nitpicking but pathfinder halflings as per the setting are not what I would call normadic. Some are but more often than not they exist alongside humans.
Kind of nitpicking but pathfinder halflings as per the setting are not what I would call normadic. Some are but more often than not they exist alongside humans.
Pathfinder halflings are nomadic. With their lower base movement, it would stand to reason that they would be a herding and riding race, relying on mounts to move from one location to another. They would probably also seek to develop a weapon that would immobilize or hamper the movement of opponents.I suggested having halflings proficient in the bolas. Why not make "halfling bolas" that can be used to deal non-subdual damage? Traditionally, this weapon is used for herding and cattle or horse wrangling, and would make sense for a nomadic people, especially a race that has a preference for thrown weapons.
-Steve
I literally went exactly by what was stated in Pathfinder 4 (or 3) where it discussed the races and Corvosa. The first thing said was that Halflings were nomadic, and tended to attach themselves to other civilizations rather then form their own.
-Steve
An Atlatl would be neat too
Totally don't want to be a jerk here...
But it's technically not a weapon... @_@
-Steve
But it's technically not a weapon...If you're going to argue that a device which assists its wielder in hurling a dart isn't a weapon, then you also have to argue that a device which assists its wielder in hurling a stone isn't a weapon. So, by your argument, slings and slingshots aren't weapons.
OK, I was totally kidding, but to respond, I think they're a little different in function. An Atlatl assists in hurling a weapon a further distance. The other ones pretty much do the job entirely.
-Steve
OK, I've got to talk about this:
Halflings treat weapons with the word "halfling" in it as a martial weapon. They are proficient in slings.
A) There are no weapons with "halfling" in the name.
B) Slings are simple weapons. The only class that can't use them (inexplicably) are wizards.
My suggestion would be to have halflings proficient in either the net or bolas. Alternately, they can treat these as martial weapons. I could also - possibly - see them proficient in hand crossbows.
My second topic here is about humans. I'm one of those who also disagree with having them be able to pick a martial weapon. Humans already gain a free feat at lvl 1, which they can use to become proficient in a martial weapon if they so with. I have trouble with the notion that Joe Dirtfarmer is highly familiar with the exquisite art of two-handed katana weilding.
-Steve Bennett
The easy and most likely explanation for this is that this is only the beta and there are going to be PDF updates and additional things in the near future and these things will likely be there soon.
Charles
Sling.
If halflings are often subjugated, the most obvious 'racial weapon' is one that concealable and nothing more than a few bits of leather.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think a Tom Sawyer style slingshot would be cool. As far as I know, no stats for this particular weapon exist, but there's a lot of OGC out there that I'm not familiar with.
I agree that the halfling -and other races maybe- should have a wider selection for "racial" weapons, but you can fix that easy by creating cooler "halfling" weapon.
And about the humans... no way! they are still underrated, their racial abilities are still a bit behind, so besides the free feat they should get at least the same "racial" weapon proficiency! Because maybe -just maybe- all those weapons without elven-dwarven-halfling-etc name on it may had been developed by humans.... sooo now that's a wide range for choosing right?
Power to the humans!
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An Atlatl would be neat too
I nearly choked on my water when I read that...An Atlatl would be hilarious (and would make a friend of mine who's actually used one very happy).
Halfling Blowgun?
I'm all for this one. Not terribly concealable, but light and wouldn't rely on any real strength. What about a new fantasy-oriented combo weapon that doubles as a blowgun and essentially a glorified club?
The nice thing is, if it were simple enough it could even satisfy the people who are asking for an easy weapon to make while being subjugated ("honestly Mr. evil looking human guy, it's just my walking stick").