I nearly choked on my water when I read that...An Atlatl would be hilarious (and would make a friend of mine who's actually used one very happy).
A... blow..club?
I'm all for this one. Not terribly concealable, but light and wouldn't rely on any real strength. What about a new fantasy-oriented combo weapon that doubles as a blowgun and essentially a glorified club?
I could see a halfling blowstaff
*chuckle*
-Steve
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I want to put my vote in for the Atatl (with a rename cause blech) this is exactly the kind of thing I could see a halfling using to match the big folk with throwing weapons. Maybe have any darts thrown from it double their range increment and deal damage as if they were one size category larger. That way you could use it with darts and still use just darts if disarmed or something.
I want to put my vote in for the Atatl (with a rename cause blech) this is exactly the kind of thing I could see a halfling using to match the big folk with throwing weapons. Maybe have any darts thrown from it double their range increment and deal damage as if they were one size category larger. That way you could use it with darts and still use just darts if disarmed or something.
Atatl (Halfling dart thrower?) or a war sling would be good. I've seen some stats for a war sling that is much more effective than the core sling. I would make either one an exotic weapon for halfling warriors (treat as martial).
How about the Halfling Hobnailed Helmet? Halflings are just about the right size to headbutt a human in the ol' beanbag...
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Sling.
If halflings are often subjugated, the most obvious 'racial weapon' is one that concealable and nothing more than a few bits of leather.
I've got a book that shows how to make a sling with about 50 feet of 2.5mm chord. Still haven't done it though...I have no proficiency with slings...yet.
I vote SLING...just like the warsling in RotW, but maybe with a X3 Crit instead of X4. That matched with Skiprocks has made a formidable weapon in past games.
It seems that Halflings are associated with heightened eye-hand coordination, which would translate to any thrown weapon. If your small folk are nomadic then I vote for a racial version of bola, or a stun dart. If they are agricultural it would make sense to give them the ability to use their farm implements in a martial capacity (kind of historical) so flails and pitchforks--not glamorous, but I just don't see Halfling as a warlike race in general.
On the other hand I once had a halfling berserker that used a longsword like a 2-hander:D
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With their their natural resourcefulness and propensity for being slaves in Golarian, I think a halfling racial weapon would combine commonly found and easily disguised materials. Some sort of enhanced sling makes sense, as does any sort of shiv. So why not combine the two? Have a sling crafted so the halfling could easily slip some sort of blade into one finger loop, creating a bladed flail-type weapon, finessable and possibly with reach. Maybe call it a "halfling sling-belt" with a (detachable) bladed buckle? Give it stats basically identical to a bladed scarf (which is a little weak-sauce compared to the spiked chain anyway) but allow it to double as a sling.
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With their their natural resourcefulness and propensity for being slaves in Golarian, I think a halfling racial weapon would combine commonly found and easily disguised materials. Some sort of enhanced sling makes sense, as does any sort of shiv. So why not combine the two? Have a sling crafted so the halfling could easily slip some sort of blade into one finger loop, creating a bladed flail-type weapon, finessable and possibly with reach. Maybe call it a "halfling sling-belt" with a (detachable) bladed buckle? Give it stats basically identical to a bladed scarf (which is a little weak-sauce compared to the spiked chain anyway) but allow it to double as a sling.
Oh lets one-up this one. Halfling War-Suspenders!
Oh lets one-up this one. Halfling War-Suspenders!
Halfling war bra: allows two stones to be throw at the same time :D
My second topic here is about humans. I'm one of those who also disagree with having them be able to pick a martial weapon. Humans already gain a free feat at lvl 1, which they can use to become proficient in a martial weapon if they so with. I have trouble with the notion that Joe Dirtfarmer is highly familiar with the exquisite art of two-handed katana weilding.
-Steve Bennett
One of the problems with humans in Fantasy RPG, is that their diversified nature makes them hard to put into rules. Most RPGs, including PF, allow humans more leeway in what they can choose during the character creation process. However, while two different human cultures may be very different from each other, two individuals from same culture are more alike.
For the moment, there are no differences between cultural diversity and individual variety. While I also have a problem with Joe Dirtfarmer wielding a katana, Joe Dirtfarmer Wong may very well wield sai since these are agricultural tools. But they are oriental farmer tools, Joe Dirtfarmer Wong's occidental cousin is more likely wielding a pitchfork instead and treat sai as exotic weapons instead.
The creation or transformation of more occidental "exotic" weapons may solve this problem. Flail? Lance? Insanely huge battle hammer?
But it's technically not a weapon...If you're going to argue that a device which assists its wielder in hurling a dart isn't a weapon, then you also have to argue that a device which assists its wielder in hurling a stone isn't a weapon. So, by your argument, slings and slingshots aren't weapons.OK, I was totally kidding, but to respond, I think they're a little different in function. An Atlatl assists in hurling a weapon a further distance. The other ones pretty much do the job entirely.
-Steve
By using that logic a bow or crossbow simply assists in hurling a weapon a further distance. There are a lot of similarities in how a bow launches an arrow and an at-latl launches a dart. Creating an at-latl would be akin to bows with separate ammunition costs underneath.
for example:Martial ranged weapon:
At-Latl, Cost: 25gp, Dmg(S): 1d6, Dmg(M): 1d8, Critical: x2,
Range inc.: 60 ft., 1 lb., Piercing
Darts (1), Cost: 1gp, 1lb,
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I concede that Halflings have been associated with slings, but making a special Halfling Warsling just to give them a Martial weapon would be a disservice if that special weapon still requires a move action to load. Whatever the weapon is, it should be possible to full attack with it.
Some sort of 'sling staff' (as has been mentioned) could work if were basically a hollow staff that holds 20 bullets and can double as a melee staff weapon. MAYBE a hook for Dexterity tripping and a compass on one end and an AM radio for emergencies; oh, and also works as pipe.
Well, maybe that was too much, but it really should be a weapon that can do a full attack without requiring a feat to do so.
The finger dart's not bad, if a Halfling can palm up to 3 of them.
Director of Game Design
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Great brainstorming everyone. Right now, I think my top contenters are (in no particular order):
Halfling Atlatl
Halfling Blowgun
Halfling Finger Dart
Halfling War Sling
Of those, I think the War Sling fits best with the halfling heritage, but I could be convinced to go another way.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The 1st edition Monster Manual depicts a pair of halflings carrying a spear and a bow. The description lists these among "typical" halfling weapons along with small sword and hand axe. Attaching the "Halfling" descriptor to any one of these and not the others seems arbitrary, so a more distinctive weapon seems to be called for. Atlatl is a good suggestion (I like the way it compensates for their shorter throwing arm), although a halfling weapon seems like it should throw something smaller than a spear. How about a Halfling Dart Sling?
Great brainstorming everyone. Right now, I think my top contenters are (in no particular order):
Halfling Atlatl
Halfling Blowgun
Halfling Finger Dart
Halfling War SlingOf those, I think the War Sling fits best with the halfling heritage, but I could be convinced to go another way.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How about:
Weapon Familiarity: Halflings are proficient with slings, at-latls, and blowguns and treat any weapon with the word “halfling” in its name as a martial weapon.Blowguns already are a martial weapon so you don't need any additional work there. You would have to create an at-latl as a martial weapon and either the halfling war sling or the halfling finger dart as an exotic weapon. This way only two weapons need to be created, giving Halflings one racial simple weapon, two racial martial weapons, and one racial exotic weapon.
It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I have never been happy with the idea that halfling and gnome weaponry does less damage than anyone else's, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
No one in my campaign has played either one of those races, except for a sorcerer, due to the fact that they do less damage in combat.
I have never been happy with the idea that halfling and gnome weaponry does less damage than anyone else's, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
No one in my campaign has played either one of those races, except for a sorcerer, due to the fact that they do less damage in combat.
That's balanced out *greatly* by the fact that halflings, gnomes, and other small creatures get +1 to hit and +1 to AC. Ultimately, an average of 1 damage-point-less for small-sized weapons is inconsequential, especially at higher levels.
-Steve
My vote would be for halfling war sling or halfling finger darts. Both fit in with the halflings' traditional prowess with slings and thrown weapons and are easily concealable. Atlatls and blowguns are very neat (and it would be cool to have stats for an atlatl), but they don't feel particularly halfling. We could also include the halfling skip rock, since the war sling and skip rock don't actually have "halfling" in their name in Races of the Wild.
BTW, can we also give the halfling, half-elf, and gnome some racial martial weapon proficiencies? Elves get 4 (longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow), dwarves get 3 (battleaxe, hammer, heavy pick), half-orcs get 2 (falchion, greataxe), and humans get their choice of 1. Meanwhile, halflings get a measly simple weapon proficiency--that every class but wizard has automatically--and gnomes and half-elves get nothing.
I just checked Races of the Wild for any halfling weapons. Although the Skiprock and the War sling are described as halfling manufacture, the wepons themselves do not have halfling in the names. So whatever is invented in pathfinder will be the first halfling racial weapon. with that in mind I would prefer two halfling weaons created. Maybe a Halfling War sling that doesn't require skiprocks and the Halfling finger dart.
On second thought, it makes sense that there would be no halfling racial weapons because the 3.5 version didn't have weapon familarity.
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Great brainstorming everyone. Right now, I think my top contenters are (in no particular order):
Halfling Atlatl
Halfling Blowgun
Halfling Finger Dart
Halfling War SlingOf those, I think the War Sling fits best with the halfling heritage, but I could be convinced to go another way.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
My 2 cp:
Atlatls are a "primitive" weapon, replaced by bows in the real world. I can see barbarian tribesmen using them, but halflings?
Blowguns also have a distinctly African/jungle feel (to me, at least, although I know they were used in Asia as well) which doesn't fit halflings, and they are effectively useless without poison (making them effectively useless to PCs). Plus they're already simple weapons, which means most classes are proficient already.
War sling (or sling shot) sounds good to me, but can you make another sling that's just as good, only different? I also like the halfling bola idea.
Not sure about the finger dart.
But how about the hand crossbow? Nice, small weapon, doesn't rely on strength, its damage is neither overpowering or too weak, and matches the rogue favored class of halflings. It makes sense that a small race that blends in with the other, bigger races would make a small easily concealed weapon based on a simple weapon.
It is true that the halfling bit was added due to some non-core sources. That said, I think we probably should add a weapon that is halfling related. If we do so though, I would like to make sure that it fits well with their racial concept in both a generic sense and for the Pathfinder Chronicles setting.
2 cheers for the War Sling!!!
Huzzah Huzzah!!Really dig the warsling, this will make the loss of the insanely good +1 attack bonus on thrown weapons sting a little less.
I have never been happy with the idea that halfling and gnome weaponry does less damage than anyone else's, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
No one in my campaign has played either one of those races, except for a sorcerer, due to the fact that they do less damage in combat.
Well considering halfings weigh a whooping 25 lbs and are shorter than your average kindergardener it's amazing that they do any damage at all.
I'll take the +1 attack bonus versus the (average) 1 HP extra damage any day, in particular for a rogue... base weapon damage for rogues in almost irrelevant.
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Great brainstorming everyone. Right now, I think my top contenters are (in no particular order):
Halfling Atlatl
Halfling Blowgun
Halfling Finger Dart
Halfling War SlingOf those, I think the War Sling fits best with the halfling heritage, but I could be convinced to go another way.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingMy 2 cp:
Atlatls are a "primitive" weapon, replaced by bows in the real world. I can see barbarian tribesmen using them, but halflings?
Blowguns also have a distinctly African/jungle feel (to me, at least, although I know they were used in Asia as well) which doesn't fit halflings, and they are effectively useless without poison (making them effectively useless to PCs). Plus they're already simple weapons, which means most classes are proficient already.
War sling (or sling shot) sounds good to me, but can you make another sling that's just as good, only different? I also like the halfling bola idea.
Not sure about the finger dart.
But how about the hand crossbow? Nice, small weapon, doesn't rely on strength, its damage is neither overpowering or too weak, and matches the rogue favored class of halflings. It makes sense that a small race that blends in with the other, bigger races would make a small easily concealed weapon based on a simple weapon.
This.
I, too, think that those weapons feel quite exotic and primitive, and I don't see them fitting my image of general halflings... Blowgun might suit halfling assassins and rogues, since without poison it is practically a useless weapon...
Hand crossbow, short bow, sling, dart, dagger, bola... those are the weapons I see halflings using.
I, too, think that those weapons feel quite exotic and primitive, and I don't see them fitting my image of general halflings... Blowgun might suit halfling assassins and rogues, since without poison it is practically a useless weapon...
Hand crossbow, short bow, sling, dart, dagger, bola... those are the weapons I see halflings using.
Personally, I'm still a big fan of having the halflings use some sort of War Bolas. I think they mesh well with the idea of halflings as wanderers, they play toward their characteristic strength with throwing weapons, and compensate for their movement weaknesses vs. medium opponents by letting them make trip attempts.
Personally, I'm all for letting them keep the +1 to thrown stuff. Players will generally record this correctly when they stat out their characters' weapon slots on the character sheet. And if the DM forgets to include it, it's not the end of the world, so it shouldn't significantly slow the creation of NPCs
-Steve
As far as the humans go, I think that the free exotic weapon familiarity would make more sense if some martial weapons were made into exotic weapons.
The 3.5 core assumes that all "european" weapons were available to all europeans (and therefore to all characters). But it doesn't have to be so.
Historically, certain nations/cultures were known to their mastery of a certain weapon, and were often hired as mercenaries because the skill or technology to master this weapon was not available to all.
the Swiss had their pikemen
the English had the longbow
scimitars and kopeshs could be restricted to "middle eastern" civilizations
etc.
this could transcribe well into a fantasy setting as well. Unfortunately, this would force campaigns to go into another level of details, which may not please everybody.
As far as the humans go, I think that the free exotic weapon familiarity would make more sense if some martial weapons were made into exotic weapons.
The split between simple, martial, and exotic weapons should be along game balance lines not cultural ones. A player should be able to choose his/ her weapon based on personal character flavor choices rather than mechanical ones. Thus the Claymore and Katana are essentially bastard swords +1.
In the PHB the longbow is one of a few aberrations, it should really be an exotic weapon based on it's damage and rate of fire. This is why the longbow is such a popular weapon in the game, because it's not balanced with the rest of the missile weapons.
People like to say that a certain weapon is better in real life so it should be better in the game but this doesn't translate well into gameplay. Players choose weapons based on how effective they are. If the Katana were statted out the way many people claim it should be then every martial character would be running around with a katana regardless of how well it works with that players character concept. This is why the (composite) longbow is standard equipment on almost every martial character or rogue.
I would love to see the Longbow put where it belongs as an exotic weapon and the weak Shuriken and other monk weapons put back as martial or simple weapons where they belong.
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I add my vote for the war sling/sling-staff. I like the idea of finger darts, but a base damage of 1d2 or whatever it would be for small creatures is so small I'd never see it used in my campaign. But the idea of a sling that reloads faster, or a staff sling would make alot of people in my game happy.
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BTW, can we also give the halfling, half-elf, and gnome some racial martial weapon proficiencies? Elves get 4 (longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow), dwarves get 3 (battleaxe, hammer, heavy pick), half-orcs get 2 (falchion, greataxe), and humans get their choice of 1. Meanwhile, halflings get a measly simple weapon proficiency--that every class but wizard has automatically--and gnomes and half-elves get nothing.
I second your motion on adding weapon proficiencies to gnome/halfling/half-elf, but would like to point out that elves get 5 proficiencies ever since PF inexplicably added the Elven Curve Blade (a greatsword that grants a disarm bonus). Why did I point this out? because I am an ass.
A Halfling Hunga Munga just sounds right...
How about granting them improvised weapon?
They're supposed to be good at throwing stuff and the last time I played one in a d&d game i took that to mean they could throw stones of course the dm then imposed a -4 penalty even though throwing a stone should be something ANYONE can do so where's the sense in imposing a penalty on something when you can wield a quarterstaff or club which is essentially a tree branch or stick?
Would it hurt to say they have this feat or have half the normal penalty due to their inherent talent for throwing rocks and suchlike?
How about granting them improvised weapon?
They're supposed to be good at throwing stuff and the last time I played one in a d&d game i took that to mean they could throw stones of course the dm then imposed a -4 penalty even though throwing a stone should be something ANYONE can do so where's the sense in imposing a penalty on something when you can wield a quarterstaff or club which is essentially a tree branch or stick?
Would it hurt to say they have this feat or have half the normal penalty due to their inherent talent for throwing rocks and suchlike?
Actually, I do rather like the idea of them getting the Improvised Weapon ability as something of a bonus feat...
And I also like them getting back their +1 to hit with thrown weapons - for Pete's sake, isn't the point of backwards compatibility adding, rather than taking away? Thrown weapons are inefficient compared to bows anyway (shorter ranges, strength penalties, more feats to master, etc), so why not make them appealing choices to the little halfling guys who are supposed to be so good at them?
Finally, throw in my vote for the coolness of the halfling war sling - the one with the blade on it that can be used as a melee weapon as well as a ranged weapon. That's just neat.
Nah, the Hunga Munga (love it BTW) doesn't seem to work with a race with a strength penalty. *shrug* I'm sure people will cringe, but I like the staffsling (none dare call it a hoopak)
simple, universal, and versitile, kind of like halflings.
Mmm. Take your point about the Hunga Munga, although a Hin/Halfling version [forgive the old school Known Worldisms] might be a little more areodynamic and would have fitted in with their old bonus with throwing weapons... ah well - least its up there on the best named weapon list :)
Hunga Munga [translated from Halfling]: a sharp, vicious throwing weapon; also a sharp, vicious Hinmother-in-law.
For the record I also like the new/old idea of the slingstaff and the bolas too... both seem very fitting with halflings in terms of culture and practicality.
Why not simply adjust the +1 bonus throwing bonus to instead be the "Throw Anything" feat? It's basically filling the same purpose... a bit more effectively too.
Why not simply adjust the +1 bonus throwing bonus to instead be the "Throw Anything" feat? It's basically filling the same purpose... a bit more effectively too.
I'm not sure Throw Anything is OGL (I'm pretty sure it's not), so it's not just as simple as saying "Bonus Feat: Throw Anything."
Also, it just seems odd that every halfling is an expert at chucking greatswords at people. A small bonus on thrown attacks is fine (and somewhat true to the halfling's hobbit roots), but suddenly having them throwing every sort of weapon around is a bit much.
1) I'm not sure about racial weapon familiarities. A fighter class already has a plethora of feats to devote to weapons. Why would you want to give him a free one? Thats just like Britney Spears going to a fancy restaurant and being told "Oh, you are Ms. Britney Spears! You are famous! Here, let me give you a free dinner. It's on the house!" When, out of everyone at the restaurant, she is most likely the most wealthy there.
2) As far as the halfling's Throw Anything. What about make it similar to Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed Oathsworn class ability:
Throw Object (Ex): Starting at 4th level, an oathsworn can use any object she can lift above her head as a ranged (thrown) weapon she is proficient with. The object must weigh at least 1 lb. to use it as a ranged weapon. She uses her normal attack bonus and unarmed damage, and the weapon has a range increment of 10 feet. She uses this only against foes she cannot reach or otherwise harm with her unarmed strikes. Assume that, unless the object is particularly sturdy, it breaks when thrown.
I think we should have a weight limit. Especially as it's a free racial proficiency. Limit it to items no heavier than a pound.
They can throw rocks, a turkey drumstick they were eating on, a pewter mug, etc. Maybe have it deal 1d2 damage, plus STR mod. Now, it's not as much damage as a dagger or sling stone, but it'll still hurt, and you'll always have plenty of options. Move Eq action to find and pick up an object, only 1 attack with it if it's ranged. If it's melee, there's always the chance that the object will break if the dmg meets/exceeds the hardness of the object. Keep the range increment 10ft, maybe move it up to 15, but no further.Little Boomer jumps over the campfire and picks up a dirt clod. Turning, he deftly throws the clod at the orcs face. (crit hit) The clod hits the orc in the forehead for 6 points of damage. (2 on a 1d2, 1 for STR, 3 doubled to 6). The clod expoldes in a ball of dirt, blinding the orc long enough to move back around him and roll under the orcs feet, tripping him. The orc loses his balance and falls forward into the dying flames of the campfire.
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1) Humans get a free martial weapon proficiency, but so do fighters, so human fighters lose out. Maybe in the case of a human fighter, the free martial should get upgraded to a free exotic.
2) We have free racial exotic proficiencies. What about free cultural exotic proficiencies for humans. I'm building a human Taldan right now. Their culturally favored weapon seems to be the falcata but I have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency just to use it (and with the +1 BAB req of that feat, I have to be a fighter to take it at 1st level). I'd like to a) have the falcata be considered martial for all Taldans, b) be able to trade up my free human martial weapon for a culturally favored exotic, or c) have the falcata not be an exotic weapon at all (it does have a fantastic crit range, though ;).