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Hi --
I'm curious if there are any plans to change the 'attrition model' of combat to a more 'event based' one?
I'm not a 4th Ed proponent, but I find the "wake up at 10:00am, and need to rest by 10:02am because of one medium-sized fight" somewhat tiresome; which 4th Ed seemed to have solved to some extent.
Unearthed Arcana had a good "Recharge Magic" type system which I have considered using, but have not yet play tested.
Just wondering.
Thanks
PS: This is my very first post on these boards so if I have inappropriately placed this thread in the wrong place, please forgive me. I think Pathfinder rocks (except in name perhaps... :)) so I'm quite eager to join in these discussions.
Hi --
I'm curious if there are any plans to change the 'attrition model' of combat to a more 'event based' one?
I'm not a 4th Ed proponent, but I find the "wake up at 10:00am, and need to rest by 10:02am because of one medium-sized fight" somewhat tiresome; which 4th Ed seemed to have solved to some extent.
Unearthed Arcana had a good "Recharge Magic" type system which I have considered using, but have not yet play tested.
Just wondering.
Thanks
PS: This is my very first post on these boards so if I have inappropriately placed this thread in the wrong place, please forgive me. I think Pathfinder rocks (except in name perhaps... :)) so I'm quite eager to join in these discussions.
First up, welcome! You'll find several threads on this subject so do browse around a bit for more insight. I'll go in reverse order...
I have been testing out the recharge variant for the best several months now. The liberation it provides to spellcasting is initially a nice change. However, when you get into the 6-8th level range, there are some pretty good spells that have a duration exceeding the recharge rate, making them virtually permanent. This greatly shifts a DM's need for planning a session. In addition, the need to track recharge times in combat gets very cumbersome.
I have also tried skill-based systems (I like them, my players not so much) and now we're giving spell points a whirl I think.
Now, for the other issue, my first (and only so far) experience with 4e was actually the opposite from my 3.X sessions--we had to rest after every battle because everyone had used up their daily powers and/or had gotten the crap kicked out of them. In addition, the repetitive nature of the power's mechanic (i.e. used daily/encounter power, then repeat use of at-will's until target dies) left me a bit wanting. Coupled with the limited array of powers/feats in the current system, I found 4e too cookie-cutter for my tastes in a long-term game.
In 3.5, my group rarely rests after a battle, or even 3-4 battles. They rely much more on "mundane" solutions to problems, are cautious about starting fights, etc. However, I will say that after a big battle, they'd go sleep it off somewhere just like in 4e.
So, overall my current assessment is 4e vs 3.x just shifts why you have to rest, rather than eliminating the problem.
My current thought on this issue is that a combination of spell points and a slow recharge over time (rather than regaining them all by sleeping) may be the answer. I'm going to try that out next.
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The only problem I ever noticed with the "attrition" situation is that at low levels wizards run out of attack spells too often and are either forced to fall back on crossbows or stopping the party so he can rest. With Pathfinder, this isn't a problem as nearly every spellcaster has some kind of magical attack option.
Hi --
I'm curious if there are any plans to change the 'attrition model' of combat to a more 'event based' one?
Generally I have noted that if and when this happens (generally at low levels) its due to casters running out of energy/spells etc. 3 things that can help vastly with this are: Reserve Feats from Complete Mage and Complete Champion (especially Touch of Healing and Mitigate Suffering) adding equivalents to the at will powers of 4E to the 3.5 I still love, Incarnum melds which add HUGE reusable versatility, and in Pathfinders Beta you will see that Domains for clerics and Specialties for wizards add a host of reusable effects and powers as well. With all those options you can keep fighting til the cows come home.
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Well, the extra hp and new cleric domain powers and spellcaster school/bloodline powers, plus at will cantrips/orisons, and no XP for crafting items (like healing potions/wands) has gone a long way to alleviating the problem. My party has soldiered on even when out of spells as long as they had hp left.
In one day of adventuring they got in 5 encounters of an EL equal to or 1 less than their party level.
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i could never figure this out since 3e started. if wizards get "scribe scroll" at first level, what's keeping a wizard from prepping scrolls for an adventure? especially after the group has a few adventures under their belt, and presumably has made a bit of money?
i can't think of a game i've played in where the wizard wasn't busy writing scrolls between jobs...
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First up, welcome! You'll find several threads on this subject so do browse around a bit for more insight. I'll go in reverse order...
I have been testing out the recharge variant for the best several months now. The liberation it provides to spellcasting is initially a nice change. However, when you get into the 6-8th level range, there are some pretty good spells that have a duration exceeding the recharge rate, making them virtually permanent. This greatly shifts a DM's need for planning a session. In addition, the need to track recharge times in combat gets very cumbersome.
I have also tried skill-based systems (I like them, my players not so much) and now we're giving spell points a whirl I think.
Now, for the other issue, my first (and only so far) experience with 4e was actually the opposite from my 3.X sessions--we had to rest after every battle because everyone had used up their daily powers and/or had gotten the crap kicked out of them. In addition, the repetitive nature of the power's mechanic (i.e. used daily/encounter power, then repeat use of at-will's until target dies) left me a bit wanting. Coupled with the limited array of powers/feats in the current system, I found 4e too cookie-cutter for my tastes in a long-term game.
In 3.5, my group rarely rests after...
Very interesting analysis. Could not the troublesome spells that you mention be 'tweaked' to have a longer recharge. I remember when I looked at the system, I cherry picked some spells to correct. As I said, I never got a change to play it.
Although I had not given it much thought, now that you mention it, the tracking of recharge times can be problematic, I do agree.
When I first read about it, it did seem like a neat solution without a complete system overhaul. However, I would tend to think it breaks down at really low levels since the delay is per spell level; so at low levels, you don't have many spells levels to choose from. I tended to think it would START to get interesting at about 6-8th level.
Thanks for the feedback however.
Very interesting analysis. Could not the troublesome spells that you mention be 'tweaked' to have a longer recharge. I remember when I looked at the system, I cherry picked some spells to correct. As I said, I never got a change to play it.
Although I had not given it much thought, now that you mention it, the tracking of recharge times can be problematic, I do agree.
When I first read about it, it did seem like a neat solution without a complete system overhaul. However, I would tend to think it breaks down at really low levels since the delay is per spell level; so at low levels, you don't have many spells levels to choose from. I tended to think it would START to get interesting...
You're welcome. We could indeed tweak the trouble spells, but there were quite a lot...in the end it was the tracking issue that wasmore of a problem. For now, we're discussing this approach:
Use spell points with a lower point pool (perhaps half that in UA), but allow the points to regenerate faster. So, you couldn't drop tons of high-level stuff in a single fight without running out of spells 3-4 rounds into combat, but after the fight you'd regain something like 1/4 your spell point total per hour of no casting. You might run into situations then where relying on the Pathfinder classes abilities other than spells (domain powers, arcane school powers, etc.) would be preferable in some fights so you don't stop spell point regen. I'm also considering a "casting hurts" option where once you run out of spell points, you can continue casting spells if you like, but each spell forces a Fort save (DC 10+spell level) and deals either nonlethal (successful save) or lethal (failed save) damage. So if you've burned through those points, but then need to make a heroic effort you've got the option.
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i could never figure this out since 3e started. if wizards get "scribe scroll" at first level, what's keeping a wizard from prepping scrolls for an adventure? especially after the group has a few adventures under their belt, and presumably has made a bit of money?
in 3.x it costed also XP and no wizard would take a full library of scrolls if ti got his xp really low...
and now is more expensive and while the party would help the wizard buy the equipment, they also need to get better equipment, eat and in general get nifty things... so just to have the wizard functional best part of the day i don't think they will put to much money on him, also making scrolls do take time too.
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i could never figure this out since 3e started. if wizards get "scribe scroll" at first level, what's keeping a wizard from prepping scrolls for an adventure? especially after the group has a few adventures under their belt, and presumably has made a bit of money?in 3.x it costed also XP and no wizard would take a full library of scrolls if ti got his xp really low...
and now is more expensive and while the party would help the wizard buy the equipment, they also need to get better equipment, eat and in general get nifty things... so just to have the wizard functional best part of the day i don't think they will put to much money on him, also making scrolls do take time too.
you're right. sometimes i forget that not everyone houseruled out the xp cost for scrolls (i still used it for the big ticket magic items, though).
in my game, the players had ample time between adventures for stocking up on stuff like scrolls and potions (the down time), so we never had too many issues with the wiz or cleric "flaming out" early in an adventure.
but, remembering RAW, i can see how it would be an issue with a lot of groups...
adding equivalents to the at will powers of 4E to the 3.5
I think this is one thing where something very good can be borrowed from 4E. Suppose that in order to keep the wizard from using up his stash right away, he's given an "at will" form of magic missile as a class ability that functions as magic missile but requires an attack roll? Or better yet, allow the target a Reflex save to evade. Magic missile the spell is still useful because the hit is automatic. Giving him something he can fire off at low levels would be a nice change of pace for the wizard, provided that you limit the number of magic missiles. I say put a cap at two missiles and let him have it.
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So, overall my current assessment is 4e vs 3.x just shifts why you have to rest, rather than eliminating the problem.
My current thought on this issue is that a combination of spell points and a slow recharge over time (rather than regaining them all by sleeping) may be the answer. I'm going to try that out next.
Any idea of how are you going to do this?
i myself have a plan that i am revising using mana (chi, prana, essence, whatever):
Spell Level Mana Cost
0 1
1 3
2 5
3 7
4 9
5 11
6 13
7 15
8 17
9 19
that is also the cost i would give to spells in the characters list, giving a 1st level wizard 6 mana points, and a 2nd level 10, a 3rd 15, 4th 23... and so on
in my case i am thinking in asking 100 xp/lvl for each new spell they want to learn (but they get 1 or 2 when they get a new level), but they would be able to cast the spells whnever they need it
also orizons would cost 0 and make them free as in Pathfinder, maybe taking down the line of costs...
for me in metamagic feats instead of asking for the price of the next level cost... i would multiply... so a 2nd level spell with heightned instead of costing 7 pts would cost 10.
alas my thought was to recover 1 point per level per hour, 2 if resting, 4 if sleeping... would let them recover quickler... but a high level spellcaster would NOT recover the same quantity of power as he spent a day before.
but this are just some dieas i am still working with
countermagic would only ask for either spending the same amout of mana as the rival or (more likely) doubling it if the caster was not prepared for countering it in the irst place.
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you're right. sometimes i forget that not everyone houseruled out the xp cost for scrolls (i still used it for the big ticket magic items, though).
in my game, the players had ample time between adventures for stocking up on stuff like scrolls and potions (the down time), so we never had too many issues with the wiz or cleric "flaming out" early in an adventure.
but, remembering RAW, i can see how it would be an issue with a lot of groups...
ok that was pretty useful, i know a few DM would acept it... but knowing a fe of my old playing pals... either me as a DM or the other DM in the table would have asked to enforce the XP rule...
i knew ine of them... even with the XP Cost he got his small library with him... and as some mentioned he also was beginning to do his own items
i myself had a feat of magic item creations and i decided not to use it for the sake of it... for me XP was too precious...
well and the DM later let us some rules from Dragon Magazine where you could level up your weapons and armor by expending your own XP, a bit more than creating the item, no GP cost involved and he let us pay in parts... but will only win the power when we payed the full prize... let me tell you a few of us took this option, me principally... and i just loved it :D
i prefer to spend in little quanrtities than all altoguether.
mmm... *revelation*
XP cost for spells... how to balance the issue witht the other class... Dragon's article... *smile slowly growing*
i think now i get the idea :D
oh....
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Spell Level Mana Cost
0 1also orizons would cost 0 and make them free as in Pathfinder, maybe taking down the line of costs...
I'm confused by these two seemingly contradictory points. Am I missing/misunderstanding something?
Thanks.
mmm i did missed a bit more of explanation
i thought about this concept 2 years ago...
so the cantrips and orizons used to cost a 0 level slot, and i just copy&paste them from the document i had them... and then i keep writing the orizons and cantrip as cost 0 just came to me as i remembered now they are for free in pathfinder.
so, instead of 1st level spells costing 3 points they could cost 1... or leave them at 3, while orizons and cantrisp are for free like pathfinder's rule
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Here is a Variant I came up with a couple of years ago. I don't think this is in the spirit of pathfinder though. I think the daily vancian system will stay, much to my chagrin. If they were making an attempt in Alpha then beta could begin to finalize it.
You get level + spell casting stat in spell points.
The level of the spell is the number of spell points it takes to use a spell. So a 20th level wizard with a 28 INT would have 29 Spell points (20+9)and could cast 3 9th level spells 27 points and still cast a 2nd level but then be completely out for the rest of the encounter.
Then I had some rules about adding on meta magic, don't remember them exactly.
All spell points are recovered after an encounter except those maintaining a spell.
One of the big challenges in working with this system was some of the spells had to be separated out, for instance you could not have a wizard running around casting wall of stone all day long. So some spells took a permanent toll on the casters spell points - until he rested. So if a 12th level wizard with a 24 INT (19 SP) cast a wall of stone, he would be limited to 14 SP and not get back the 5 SP, for the spell, till he rested. As I recall most of the instantaneous permanent creations, divinations, and healing were deemed in the "daily" category.
I don't think that Pathfinder would do a system like this but damn, its implementation would be easy and this is the kind a structural change that I think would make the game better, and maybe expect from a new version of the game.
Any idea of how are you going to do this?So, overall my current assessment is 4e vs 3.x just shifts why you have to rest, rather than eliminating the problem.
My current thought on this issue is that a combination of spell points and a slow recharge over time (rather than regaining them all by sleeping) may be the answer. I'm going to try that out next.
Seems like there's some interest, so I'll elaborate...
The core of this concept comes from the Unearthed Arcana Spell Points variant rules. I'd use the same tables for Spell Points Per Day and Bonus Spell Points, but halving the resulting number. The table for Spell Point Cost would remain unchanged. So, for example, a 10th level Sorcerer with an 18 Charisma would get (81 + 16) / 2 = 48 spell points. They would cast 5th level spells at a cost of 9 spell points. Multi-class casters will have a Divine and Arcane pool of points, so for example a Sorcerer/Wizard would combine points but a Bard/Ranger would not.
Casters that require spell preparation (wizards, clerics) would still do so as per the variant rules to establish their "spells known" for the day. This hour-long process "energizes" a wizard's spell components for the specific spells to be cast. Such casters can only prepare spells when well-rested. Spontaneous casters do not require spell components costing less than 1 gp in this system.
To cast spells, the caster selects a spell from his spells known, expends the required spell points, and casts the spell. Metamagic effects raise the effective spell level, resulting in a higher point cost equal to the new spell level. Casters cannot expend more points on a single spell than their maximum spell level cost (i.e. the 10th level Sorcerer could not spend more than 9 points on a spell). At present I will not be using the rule that bonus dice of damage cost more points--that seems to add another bit of rules minutia/calculating and I'm not certain the spells will be unbalanced without this limitation.
Casters recover spell points at a rate of 1/4 their total per full hour spent without casting any spells or engaging in strenuous activity. Use of Supernatural or Spell-like abilities would be permissible during this time. So the 10th level Sorcerer would regain 12 spell points per hour (and I'd probably allow fractional recovery, i.e. if that Sorcerer got into a spell-battle 30 minutes into the rest he'd still regain 6 spell points).
For Consumptive Casting, i.e. the caster using his own body to fuel the spell rather than spell points, the caster would declare the level of the spell being cast, then roll a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the spell level. Success results in the spell being successfully cast and the caster taking nonlethal damage equal to the spell's level. Casters that are immune to nonlethal damage are instead impaired as if Shaken for 1 round per spell level. Failure results in the caster taking lethal damage. This occurs before the spell is successfully cast, forcing a Concentration (Spellcraft in Pathfinder RPG) check equal to 10 + damage dealt to complete the spell.
That's it for now. I'll respond with playtest results, assuming my group agrees to the rules.
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You're welcome. We could indeed tweak the trouble spells, but there were quite a lot...in the end it was the tracking issue that wasmore of a problem. For now, we're discussing this approach:Use spell points with a lower point pool (perhaps half that in UA), but allow the points to regenerate faster. So, you couldn't drop tons of high-level stuff in a single fight without running out of spells 3-4 rounds into combat, but after the fight you'd regain something like 1/4 your spell point total per hour of no casting. You might run into situations then where relying on the Pathfinder classes abilities other than spells (domain powers, arcane school powers, etc.) would be preferable in some fights so you don't stop spell point regen. I'm also considering a "casting hurts" option where once you run out of spell points, you can continue casting spells if you like, but each spell forces a Fort save (DC 10+spell level) and deals either nonlethal (successful save) or lethal (failed save) damage. So if you've burned through those points, but then need to make a heroic effort you've got the option.
Again, quite interesting. The only problem with spell points is the tracking again. You need to meticulously track time and points which can get troublesome no? For example, I can a spell that drains 10 points from my pool of 100. The regen rate is 5 points per hour, for example. So after 1.5 hour I get back 5 points back (drop fractions). Then I cast another spell for 10 points. That means its only 30 mins until I get back 5 more points for my first casting, and I need to wait 1 hr for my next 5 points after that. See what I mean? You need a "When spell was cast vs. How much time has elapsed since then" table.
Would not an overall 'drain' system as you stated work better, similar to Shadowrun? I like the non-lethal -> lethal idea. I find this has much more potential. you can eventually cast yourself to death. Or perhaps you age when you cast a spell. It would make elven wizards much more powerful as is often the case in many fantasy genre. The aging is temporary and wears off after some rest (but that would wind up being similar to spell points). Just some ideas. Not sure if Clerics would work the same way.
The idea of always having fallback powers is also very good. What you want to avoid is as you originally said, having 'per day powers' that, when burned, will ultimately make you rest even in 4th Ed.
Thanks
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Again, quite interesting. The only problem with spell points is the tracking again. You need to meticulously track time and points which can get troublesome no? For example, I can a spell that drains 10 points from my pool of 100. The regen rate is 5 points per hour, for example. So after 1.5 hour I get back 5 points back (drop fractions). Then I cast another spell for 10 points. That means its only 30 mins until I get back 5 more points for my first casting, and I need to wait 1 hr for my next 5 points after that. See what I mean? You need a "When spell was cast vs. How much time has elapsed since then" table.
Would not an overall 'drain' system as you stated work better, similar to Shadowrun? I like the non-lethal -> lethal idea. I find this has much more potential. you can eventually cast yourself to death. Or perhaps you age when you cast a spell. It would make elven wizards...
casually a friend mentioned this yesterday
cast similar to the Star Wars system (also used in Midnight RPG)
1 hp spell level
indeed you can cast yourself to death... sounds atractive... still decideing... but this is for very gritty settings like Midnight
Again, quite interesting. The only problem with spell points is the tracking again. You need to meticulously track time and points which can get troublesome no? For example, I can a spell that drains 10 points from my pool of 100. The regen rate is 5 points per hour, for example. So after 1.5 hour I get back 5 points back (drop fractions). Then I cast another spell for 10 points. That means its only 30 mins until I get back 5 more points for my first casting, and I need to wait 1 hr for my next 5 points after that. See what I mean? You need a "When spell was cast vs. How much time has elapsed since then" table.
Would not an overall 'drain' system as you stated work better, similar to Shadowrun? I like the non-lethal -> lethal idea. I find this has much more potential. you can eventually cast yourself to death. Or perhaps you age when you cast a spell. It would make elven wizards...
Our tracking won't be that detailed as we free-form large time swipes ("It's been about 2.5 hours, so you get back X spell points"). Also, casting any spell "resets the clock" so to speak on all spell point regen, not just the one you're presently casting.
We actually started this particular game with an alternate magic system that involved skill checks and potential damage based on success (an adaptation of the nice Legends of Sorcery system for d20). It's very flavorful and I loved the versatility vs. danger aspect. Unfortunately my players hated it... :^(
But if you're interested in that angle, I'd definitely say pick up that PDF. It's packed full of nice spell system ideas for under $10. If you want even more detail, snag a copy of Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth, which has a system for actually building spells via a skill-based system.