|
Books seem to be bound in 8-page chunks and my brand new, Pathfinder Campaign Setting book just split better pages 16 and 17, right at the edge of those chunks. Now it open all the way to the outside spine cover. I've been reading it a lot, but I haven't been laying it down open and I haven't even really spent much time in the races section where it split.
#1 - I hope this is just a fluke affecting my book as opposed to a problem with the binding of lots of books, but I wanted to bring it up just in case.
#2 - Is this a returnable issue, i.e., does this rise to the level of asking for a new one from Paizo? At first I was thinking I could just live with it, but it is a brand new, $50 book.
Thoughts?
|
Just got mine yesterday and I haven't noticed defects yet, but if the binding splits through regular use I would be justifiably pissed and would demand a replacement from either the bookstore I bought it at or through the publisher. As I intend to put my Pathfinder campaign guide through heavy use for both 3.75(pathfinder) and 4.0 D&D I hope that your binding problem is just a fluke.
|
Books seem to be bound in 8-page chunks and my brand new, Pathfinder Campaign Setting book just split better pages 16 and 17, right at the edge of those chunks. Now it open all the way to the outside spine cover. I've been reading it a lot, but I haven't been laying it down open and I haven't even really spent much time in the races section where it split.
#1 - I hope this is just a fluke affecting my book as opposed to a problem with the binding of lots of books, but I wanted to bring it up just in case.
#2 - Is this a returnable issue, i.e., does this rise to the level of asking for a new one from Paizo? At first I was thinking I could just live with it, but it is a brand new, $50 book.
Thoughts?
The binding is a little weird on mine as well but I have not had any splitting yet. Like you say it does seem to be bound in chunks. I have only opened it a few times so far though.
Is this a returnable issue?
For what it is worth, Mongoose has been really great with replacing e.g. their Conan books that were commonly affected by binding problems (going so far as to pay for international shipping charges as well). Hopefully Paizo will be as professional in this regard, should it turn out to be a common problem.
My binding was split on receipt--it had separated at the back cover so I imagine it will tear off completely very soon. Not a big deal but annoying...
Books seem to be bound in 8-page chunks and my brand new, Pathfinder Campaign Setting book just split better pages 16 and 17, right at the edge of those chunks. Now it open all the way to the outside spine cover. I've been reading it a lot, but I haven't been laying it down open and I haven't even really spent much time in the races section where it split.
#1 - I hope this is just a fluke affecting my book as opposed to a problem with the binding of lots of books, but I wanted to bring it up just in case.
#2 - Is this a returnable issue, i.e., does this rise to the level of asking for a new one from Paizo? At first I was thinking I could just live with it, but it is a brand new, $50 book.
Thoughts?
Sounds like you have the printer to thank for this one, but I have no doubt Paizo will take care of you. They are a nice bunch of folks (except for that Logue guy; he's just sick). :P
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Sounds like you have the printer to thank for this one, but I have no doubt Paizo will take care of you. They are a nice bunch of folks (except for that Logue guy; he's just sick). :P
They got rid of him. Good riddance. Anything other than writing adventures is the wrong place for that piece of work...
|
I received mine in the mail, and I happened to bring it with me to Gen Con. I hadn't had a lot of time to look at it, but my friend wanted to read it in the car on the way over. I'm glad we did.
We discovered that a number of pages in the last section had not been cut properly. We tried to separate them gently, but the pages are very delicate, and it came out a bit scarred. I brought it to the Paizo booth, and they switched it out, no questions asked.
If it is a print error, I'm sure they'll fix it. If it is wear and tear, less so. But this sounds like a print error.
|
|
What if it's not a print error but a delivery error? I just picked mine up from the post office and it looked like they had Ace Ventura Pet Detective deliver it (somewhat obscure reference I know, but it seriously does look like someone was drop kicking it all the way cross country to get it to me). What kind of options do I have for a busted binding on delivery? Can I return it and get a new one? I have big hopes of throwing this book at my players for many years to come, but I don't think it'll last even a couple tosses around the gaming table with the shape it was delivered in.
|
|
What if it's not a print error but a delivery error? I just picked mine up from the post office and it looked like they had Ace Ventura Pet Detective deliver it (somewhat obscure reference I know, but it seriously does look like someone was drop kicking it all the way cross country to get it to me). What kind of options do I have for a busted binding on delivery? Can I return it and get a new one? I have big hopes of throwing this book at my players for many years to come, but I don't think it'll last even a couple tosses around the gaming table with the shape it was delivered in.
Yeah, I had the same problem, the box was in bad shape and all the corners are bent horribly, as well as the binding being loose near the end of the book.
|
|
I don't know what Paizo will do, but I know that if you pay the extra dollar or so for UPS you get a tracking number and they automatically insure the shipment for up to $100. So if the book is damaged, UPS eats the cost instead of Paizo. Considering that the delivery company can better afford to and probably should eat the cost, I highly recommend that option for everyone.
|
|
What if it's not a print error but a delivery error? I just picked mine up from the post office and it looked like they had Ace Ventura Pet Detective deliver it (somewhat obscure reference I know, but it seriously does look like someone was drop kicking it all the way cross country to get it to me). What kind of options do I have for a busted binding on delivery? Can I return it and get a new one? I have big hopes of throwing this book at my players for many years to come, but I don't think it'll last even a couple tosses around the gaming table with the shape it was delivered in.Yeah, I had the same problem, the box was in bad shape and all the corners are bent horribly, as well as the binding being loose near the end of the book.
Over here (UK), this would be an issue between the shipper (Paizo) and the carrier, as Paizo is the 'customer' of the shipping service. If Paizo insured the shipment, they can claim on the insurance. The contract between Paizo and shipper might cover liability for damage due to negligent handling, even without insurance. The bottom line is that you bought something from Paizo and received it in poor condition. Even though that's someone other than Paizo's fault, their customer services should probably be the first port-of-call for you to try to get a product in what we'd call 'saleable condition'. What then happens between them and the shipping company is for them to sort out.
My binding was split on receipt--it had separated at the back cover so I imagine it will tear off completely very soon. Not a big deal but annoying...
Mine too.
|
I purchased my copy today and haven't noticed any problems with the binding. I plan on using the book extensively, so I hope the book doesn't immediately fall apart from heavy use.
Yep I bought mine Thursday at the FLGS and it is starting to split right were the original poster noted between pages 16 and 17
|
Guess I might as well add mine. It's not bad, a tiny section of pages had worked a bit loose at the very end of the book upon arrival. Of course the corner on that end was bent as well as the corresponding corner of the box it arrived in, so it was apparently borked in transit.
That was also the first Paizo shipment I've gotten that didn't come stuffed with paper strips or styrofoam. (many of my orders have necessitated it though, this one not so much)
|
Director of Sales
|
Mosaic, theprofessor, skinnyfat, Nameless, tbug, TK342, Mikaze,
I will get replacement copies shipped out to you guys as soon as possible.
Crow81,
I do not have a shipping address for you, so you should either seek an exchange from your FLGS, or email your shipping address to customer.service@paizo.com so I can get a replacement sent to you.
Everyone,
We are monitoring this to ensure that it isn't a bigger problem. However, after my initial check of our personal copies around the office, as well as several pulled at random from our warehouse stock, this seems to be a very few flukes because none of the books I checked had any binding problems.
In fact, after I checked James Jacob's copy, he... ummm... well... he went to town on his: bending the covers back far enough to touch on the backside, pressing it flat on numerous pages, holding it open by the edges of the covers and letting the pages hang. His held up to activities that would normally "void the warranty" (to use an expression).
With any large print run, there will be a small percentage which will have some printing errors. These things happen.
So far, this is an extremely small percentage of the very large number of books that went out. As I mentioned previously, we will be monitoring this in case it does become a more general phenomena, but for now, it doesn't appear that it will.
Regardless, however, we will ALWAYS make sure that you get a book whose physical quality matches the quality of the content. So let me know if you have any problems and I will make sure they get addressed.
Thanks,
cos
Thank-you, Cosmo. Paizo's customer service is, as always, amazing!
How can we help? Do you want me to package mine up and mail it back to the States so that you can see what a damaged copy is like? Please feel free to contact me privately if you want me doing anything.
|
|
Mosaic, theprofessor, skinnyfat, Nameless, tbug, TK342, Mikaze,
I will get replacement copies shipped out to you guys as soon as possible.
Wow, I feel kind of bad about throwing my mention in there. I mean it's really not that bad...
I mean, thanks! and all, but I hate to put anyone out 50 bucks over something so minor. Don't worry about sending me another one, it's certainly not as bad as the other mentions.
Wow this feels weird. Now I sound like an ungrateful dick. Should I shut up now? I'm shutting up now. Very awkward.
<3 this customer service.
|
|
yeah, wow! awesome customer service! I wasn't really expecting any sort of action.
Before you go sending a replacement, let me just confirm that what I think is broken, is in fact broken. Basically, my entire book is unglued from the spine. I assume this is not right, compared to other similarly bound RPG hardcovers. But I thought I should confirm that this is indeed wrong.
And yeah, if there is anything I can do to help with the replacement, let me know.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
You and your prompt, responsive customer service. It makes me sick!
Josh, if you're reading this, I'm still available to replace Cos. How many people does he have to help before you acknowledge the harm he's doing to the company?
Plus, I've been practicing my heavy breathing into the phone. That sort of creepy unresponsiveness is just what
Paizo needs.
And in case anyone thinks otherwise, let me remind you that I have a whole box full of kittens and a red hot furnace...
|
|
Hi there!
Well, mine is also torn apart. I already sent an eMail with pictures taken from the book, but as I haven't received an eMail back yet, I wonder if eMails with attachements other than docs or pdfs might find their way into your spam folder.
Anyway, I can send it again, if it really didn't show up in your inbox.
Thanx for checking,
Tom
|
|
Wow Cosmo, you guys rock! Thanks for the quick response. I'm glad to hear this is just part of the normal <1% flaw rate rather than a bigger printing issue.
A couple people have said it already, but your customer service is a huge part of what makes you all the #1 BEST PUBLISHERS IN THE WORLD!!!!!
Thanks
|
|
Wow, I feel kind of bad about throwing my mention in there. I mean it's really not that bad...
I mean, thanks! and all, but I hate to put anyone out 50 bucks over something so minor. Don't worry about sending me another one, it's certainly not as bad as the other mentions.
Wow this feels weird. Now I sound like an ungrateful dick. Should I shut up now? I'm shutting up now. Very awkward.
<3 this customer service.
I'm having the exact same moral quandary. Awkward, indeed.
And yes, Paizo Customer Service = Best ever, despite Sebastian's claims... :)
|
CEO
|
I am hoping that one of the pictures comes through because I am wondering whether some of these binding problems aren't problems at all. Looking at the books, there is a space between the spine of the book and the pages. If you look at a copy of the book, you will see a piece of cloth running down the binding and it is to that that the pages are bound. It is a process called Smythe binding and is considering to be very strong when it comes to larger books. I took one of our books and really tried to remove the pages but couldn't. Now, if the binding gets crushed in shipping, you might have a problem with some of the pages coming out, but it would have to be really damaged. But there SHOULD be a space between the spine and the binding. That is not a defect. It is part of the more expensive Smythe binding process. Many companies use a glued binding process which glues the pages directly to the spine. We are using the more expensive, but more stable Smythe binding.
Does anybody have pages coming out of their book? This would be indicative of a bad binding.
-Lisa
|
CEO
|
The binding is a little weird on mine as well but I have not had any splitting yet. Like you say it does seem to be bound in chunks. I have only opened it a few times so far though.
Those "chunks" that you are seeing are called signatures. It is how all books are made. Basically, the signatures are 16-pages in length. Most of the time you can't see them because in a perfect binding, the edges get removed. But in a Smythe binding, they are actually sewn together and adhered to a strong clothe binding. So the signatures are more visible.
-Lisa
|
|
I totally see what you are talking about Lisa. When I saw this thread I went to check my own book and I can see the space you are talking about. Also for reference, my 4 year old managed to get a hold of my book while I had it on my coffee table and he and my seven year old were trying to take it from each other, and literally each had one of the covers and were pulling it between each other like a tug of war. My son lost his grip first and my daughter was pulling on it hard enough that when he let go she fell backwards and slammed the book over her head onto my floor. I literally could not even see so much as a minor nick in the binding. One of the cover pages got folded pretty bad but even that didn't tear. I unfolded the page and closed the book as well as stacking some heavy stuff on it and now you can't even really see the crease where it folded.
So what I am driving at, is that at least with my copy the book and especially its binding are VERY sturdy. The thing I really love about the "Smythe" binding is that the pages feel sturdy, but also soft. On most hardcovers I have owned, if there are enough pages it is "hard" to open it all the way and if you do it is almost like you tear part of the adhesion between the pages and the binding. The net effect is that I never open my hardcovers more widely than I have to for fear of that. I associate that effect with a "firm" binding. It's like when you take the new book and lay it open on the table there is that nice bell shaped curve look as the pages don't lay flat. With the Campaign Setting book, it is much softer and I can open it most all of the way and the binding still feels solid and the pages don't feel like they have been pulled loose. I love that aspect of the books craftmanship. It is both firm, yet soft. It definately makes it feel very high quality in its construction.
I am hoping that one of the pictures comes through because I am wondering whether some of these binding problems aren't problems at all.
Where should we send pictures?
Also, I'll happily send my damaged copy back to Paizo. I'm not trying to angle for a free book here. Then you could see for yourself what happened.
I've been careful with my copy so as not to damage it further in case you wanted to check it out (since I can just read the free pdf you so graciously provided--thank-you again for that service!) but if you like I can try to remove pages and see if they come out.
The pages are bound to each other quite well; it's the mesh attaching the pages to the cover that's tearing loose.
|
Well there doesn't seem to be anything major on mine, although I did notice that I can see the stitching in the first signature, and it almost appears to be a little loose in that section, but I did just got it about 2 hours ago (in a very beat up Priority Mail box - I will have to talk to my good friend at the postal service).
|
|
Lisa, I also got the impression, that the whole issue comes from handling the package by the postal services. The corners of my book look like the package got bumped all day long and the book kind of flew around inside. My FLGS sends such packages whith lots of newspaper pages stuffed in the free spaces of the packages, which prevents the content from shifting inside...
I hope my eMail reached you by now! I can do more pics if you want them, to see what some of us are talking about.
I also don't want you to think I want to get a kind of "free" second book. I have no problems sending you my torn copy in exchange if you like, really!
You know, it's weird - you're the first company I feel a little bad asking to get a replacement because I fear there will be hundreds of others and Paizo couldn't afford such a kind of high-prized book to be replaced a thousand times...
|
|
Those "chunks" that you are seeing are called signatures. It is how all books are made. Basically, the signatures are 16-pages in length. Most of the time you can't see them because in a perfect binding, the edges get removed. But in a Smythe binding, they are actually sewn together and adhered to a strong clothe binding. So the signatures are more visible.
-Lisa
Now that I have inspected it closer and messed around with the book I agree that the binding of the pages is definetly superior to other hardbacks I own. The books opens up so nicely like the other poster said. I am now wishing all hardbacks were like this. Hopefully the Pathfinder RPG will be like this too.
Having said that it seems like there could be a problem for some that the binding could detach from the glued part. I have not seen that at all with mine so far. The way it was glued makes the ToC page and very last advertisement page sit funny when opened to those pages because it is glued up high to the blank page it is attached to. So the binding is not glued to that last blank yellow page but instead the ToC and last page are glued to it instead. So there appears to be one small strip of glue on either side holding the pages there and that is how the binding is staying in place.
|
|
I think I know what happend to mine now.
After I took a closer inspection, I realized that the "fabric" (right word) on the backside of the pages, which you only see on top and on the downside of the book (its dark blue or black) doesn't go over the whole width of the binding, wich is why mine was torn apart an page 254 around...
Firstly, Cosmo: thanks very much for the replacement book. Not necessary as I could certainly live with the defect but a sign of excellent customer service! I shall donate the original (repaired to fully useable status with some duct tape) to a worthy player.
Secondly, Lisa: my problem was not loose pages but the loosening of whatever holds the bundled pages to the cover (that is, whatever holds the cover on). In other words, my cover came off--all the pages are still tightly bound together.
Once again, thanks Paizo for the replacement.
Mosaic, theprofessor, skinnyfat, Nameless, tbug, TK342, Mikaze,
I will get replacement copies shipped out to you guys as soon as possible.
Thanks,
cos
Cos
You may want to keep an I on the storage and shipping of Paizo products. I received both my Pathfinder RPG Beta and my Pathfinder Campaign Setting books about one week ago. Both had covers that were, for lack of a better term, crumpled, on the outer corners. Warped, crimped, distorted (get the picture). This "crumpling" even occurred inside the books, down through several pages near the front of the book. Now, if I spend my money on a product that is supposed to be brand new, I like it to be in brand new, pristine condition. However, neither of these books is damaged to an extent that I can't live with. I just wanted to make you aware that some of your quality controls may need to be reviewed. As for the binding of the campaign setting, it does seem a little loose, but it doesn't appear to be in danger of tearing. But I will keep an eye on it; I treat my books with care, and I do not abuse them.
Thanks for listening. Paizo has always had top-knotch customer service. That's why I keep coming back.
DogBone
|
|
The dab of rubbery glue used to hold the map in place leaves a permanent mark on the map (or, at least, it has on mine), looking like a grease spot, which isn't a very desirable feature.
I haven't really considered the binding yet (too busy reading it; it's great, incidentally) but it certainly didn't turn up bashed or falling apart as some appear to have.
|
|
Thoughts?
Hiya all,
I seem to have mostly the same problem as you all. The binding holds for now, but it seems like the cover wants to divorce the pages as soon as it can. It looks like the attachment between the cover and the pages was torn somehow. The postal box looked damaged, though the rest of my order arrived in fine shape.
i'll send you a pic.
I don't really want a replacement copy, but if you have a good one remaining, would it be possible to hold it for me so I can buy it directly from you at Gen con UK next saturday ?
That would be really cool !
Received mine today.
The binding seems to be perfect, and no signature is loose.
But: The corners are crumbled (not badly though) and I have the same spot on the map as Bagpuss mentioned above.
There was no stuffing in the box the CS and the other items came in, so that might be the reason for the (slightly) damaged corners.
The map-spot looks like some of the glue soaked the map, leaving the mark.
On another note: I flipped through the book only but it looks great! Nice job! Keep up the good work!
