The "optical" aspect of charisma is "power of presence" not beauty. If it's worded like that (or similar but in better english), it should remove most problems.
As an optional method to include appearance, allow people to take...
TRAIT:
Attractive
You are particularly pleasing to the eye
You gain a +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
You get a -1 penalty to Disguise and Intimidate checks.
or
TRAIT:
Unattractive
You are difficult to look at.
You gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
You get a -1 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Handle Animal checks.
1. Charisma is the casting stat for those who cast via natural ability. In Favored Souls, this is how much your god likes you, something that Greek mythology suggests is based on your physical appearance. With Sorcerers, this is based on magic blood, something that would mold your physical appearance to a more ideal image as it would manifest. If your DNA is giving your the strength to change the world, certainly this will be reflected in how it makes you appear to the world.
Your high charisma doesn't come from your sorcerous background, though. No PC would play a sorcerer with low charisma, but this doesn't change that there's nothing stopping you from playing a Cha 6 sorcerer. Your ability scores and your class are totally disconnected.
This isn't a justification, but an excuse. Perhaps trying to control magic warps you. Perhaps magic is like radiation and containing so much of it for so long tends to damage your features. This is at least as plausible, and based just as much on the RAW.
Plus, it seems rather silly to claim that not only does the Favored Soul's god like him more than another favored soul because he's pretty by mortal standards, but that all gods operate in the same way. Plus, as I recall, that isn't how the Favored Soul is describe (more like, high charisma allows more of the god's power to pass through, or something like that).
And Charisma isn't always for those with natural abilities. The bard learned his magic, and yet he uses Charisma. Plus, there are plenty of cases in literature of ugly bards, and most of them would be very interesting characters to play, so why would we want to discount them?
Do you seriously want to argue that a larger cup size would equate to better casting?
2. Physical beauty, while subjective in some parts, isn't subjective overall. We still have generally accepted standards of beauty, such as a symettrical face free of blemishes, clean skin, etc. Beauty can be calculated but, like all stats other than Str, it's rather difficult. Plato put forth fairly good arguments to suggest that Beauty is an absolute, but it seems subjective because we focus on things diffrently.
Plato also may or may not have been right. You're right, though: humans do favor symmetry. This doesn't change the fact that two symmetrical people may seem attractive or unattractive to different people in different cultures.
3. Physical beauty, while subjective from species to species, still allows for people to approach an aesthetic ideal, the "form" of beauty. Though a beholder would likely say that humans are an unattractive species as a whole, he would still understand that the clean, healthy human is more pleasing than the filthy, misshapen human.
There is absolutelly no indication that this is true (nor do I think the Forms hypothesis is a particularly sound place to hang your argument). While it may be possible for humanoids to appreciate the beauty of other humanoids, I really don't see any reason to assume that beholder would have anything but disgust for humans, what with our gangly arms and hair and our having to walk so inelegantly on the ground. I also don't see a human being able to say "Oh wow, that beholder over there is totally hot, but that one over there is a dog!"
4. Charisma is a compound stat. Consider the T-Rex, a creature with massive strength but tiny, stubby arms. We accept that while MOST bipedal creatures with huge strength can throw a punch, the T-Rex's strength is in its jaws. Likewise, the Illithid's charisma isn't in its form, but in its unnaturally strong personality. Indeed, if the Illithid's form WERE pleasing, it would probably have another 4 points of effective charisma (in the form of a +2 circumstance bonus to Diplomacy if it's successfully disguised as a human, for example)
So if an Ilithid drank a potion of Eagle's Splendor, it would suddenly become hot by human standards (ignoring that he would also get that +2 against other ilithids, dwarves, halflings, beholders, dragons, etc)? Despite that the spell says nothing of the sort? Or do you mean if he were to get Wished on 4 times? Maybe his tentacles would become symmetrical and then he'd be the belle of the ball with all the young gentlemen lining up for a dance?
5. A life of physical exercise, magical healing, and hard work may, in fact, make you prettier, if not just making you more confident in your ability to be awesome.
Confident, yes. Prettier, no. Adventurers don't spend all their time exercising. They spend it trying not to die. Hard living for them means a constant state of life-or-death stress on the body coupled with inadequate lodgings and most likely poor food. However, there is no indication that magical healing does anything special for you above jst healing. If it did, it would also heal Charisma damage (though I suppose this means attacks should also deal Charisma damage, if Charisma is appearance. Certainly attacks that deal fire or acid damage should also deal Charisma damage, as virtually no one finds massive burns (especially facial burns, which, presumably, one might get in a fireball) attractive (though even then, someone might).
Heck, if all you need to make you prettier is magical healing, then wouldn't rich parents hire clerics of a money-centric god to come in and cast healing spells on their infants over and over? Not that this is impossible, mind you, only that there's no evidence for it anywhere in any setting.
6. Wisdom also goes up as you age. Wisdom, the stat that determines your spot and listen checks. Also, Int, the stat that determines how well you remember things, goes up as you age. The flaw here isn't in Charisma, it's that mental ability scores should drop when you age, not rise.
I'll give you this one, though having mental abilities drop is too simple.
"And please, think of any situation in which you might be making a Diplomacy check in person and try and tell me that physical appearance won't affect it at all."
Two words: Henry Kissinger. ;)
But the idea is that if you are good looking, you are even better in influencing people as you would be without looking good. That's why charisma and appearance are not completely unrelated. But great charisma does not require great beauty (Darth "walking refridgerator" Vader), nor does beauty cause great charisma (Paris "Charisma 6" Hilton). ^^
But the idea is that if you are good looking, you are even better in influencing people as you would be without looking good.
Assuming they don't dismiss you out of hand as just another pretty face.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I have to disagree with you BlaineTog. While I do find it annoying when people ask "What's your Charisma score?" when they mean to say "What do you look like?", I definitely think there is and should be an element of Physical Attractiveness to Charisma.
You mention things like bust size, what clothes you wear, makeup, physical condition, differences in taste between people/cultures/species, etc, as examples of physical attractiveness, yet the very next sentence in the Beta specifically rules these out. To quote:
"This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."
(bold is mine for emphasis)
Physical Attractiveness, to me, isn't about having "assets", its about knowing how to Leverage Your Assets, something that definitely falls under Charisma. All the examples people give of Charismatic Unattractive people or Vice Versa, all boil down to Knowing or Not Knowing how to Use what you've got. The physical aspect of charisma isn't about what you look like, its about how you move your body, how well you express with your face, if you've got rhythm or not, how much control you have over your voice. All aspects of personality, and yet all very much physical, and all things that attract people to you. The Illithid may not have a pretty face, but I guarantee you he's got poise.
To conclude, think about the Perform (Dance) skill, and why its tied to Charisma not Dexterity.
Man, you have some unresolved personal issues.
Yeah, I know. My therapist thinks it's a real problem that I demand good reasons for things.
Physical Attractiveness, to me, isn't about having "assets", its about knowing how to Leverage Your Assets, something that definitely falls under Charisma.
That just isn't what "physical attractiveness" means, though. I see what you're trying to say, and that certainly makes sense, but it's not what the RAW says.
Here's what it says:
"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."
Here's what it would have said, if it meant what you claim:
"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and ability to make use of his or her physical appearance.
Or something to that effect. I think that that second one makes a lot more sense and works perfectly fine... but it's just not what the book says, and it's not what many players think when they read "physical attractiveness."
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I get what you're saying, and I do think the wording could be clarified somewhat, but I still say "being able to make use of his or her personal appearance" is the underlying principle behind physical attractiveness. That's the element of physical attractiveness that transcends societal and personal preferrence.
The Charisma entry doesn't say "prettiness/handsomeness", and goes on to explicitly eliminate those with the statement I quoted before. I know some players don't really catch on to that, but I think it would be better to clarify what was meant by physical attractiveness than to remove it entirely simply because some people interpret it as "wow my character is so hawt".
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"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."
Sorry. I personally consider this to a non-issue. Physical attractiveness in this definition is one part of a list of five separate elements that add up in greater or less degrees to the overall whole. It's not the whole definition of the attribute... the fact that it's the last element of the five suggests it's not even one of the most important facets of it. But it does belong there.
The attribute Charisma seems-- to me, at least-- to be a measure of one's ability to draw attention to one's self and to influence people. Physically attractive people can draw attention, and they can influence people, even if one can argue physical attractiveness is subjective. It's the reason the SI Swimsuit Issue outsells every other Sports Illustrated issue year-in and year-out, and that tabloid TV at the Oscars and runway fashion shows actually get ratings. I have no idea why it wouldn't make sense, then, to have physical attractiveness as a facet of Charisma.
Does a character's physical attractiveness help them cast spells? I certainly wouldn't think so. But neither do I think someone's common sense helps them make a Will save, and common sense is a similar component of Wisdom. They're simply facets of the attributes in question, not the whole of them, and not all facets have the same weight at all times. Physical attractiveness likely has more weight in personal contact with a member of the same or very similar race, just as ability to lead probably has more weight in group dynamics.
I just don't see it as an issue, myself. It's not specifying that a character is beautiful simply because of a high Charisma score, just that they have a certain... something... that often draws people's eye, sometimes even before they open their mouths to talk to show that force of personality, persuasiveness, ability to lead and the like. And if a lot of players are reading into it that an 18 Charisma automatically equates to a hot face, an effusive rack and a body that just won't quit (apologies for the terms) and the DM-- or more experienced players-- doesn't tell them otherwise, I hardly think it's the definition's fault.
1. Your high charisma MAY come from your sorcerous background. You can't say it doesn't. Unlike other classes, Sorcerer is something you've got even before you take your first level in it. And it's silly to say ability scores and class are disconnected. A little boy who wants to grow up to be a fighter will spend his days training his body, wheras a little boy who wants to be a wizard will spend his days in the library. Even with the same potential, the way he's raised from ages 5 to 15 could very easily give him different ability scores than if he'd taken the other path.
And yes, I believe that gods WOULD favor those who appear to be physically superior specimens. You may disagree, but I know that if I were a diety, then given the choice of two otherwise equal champions, I'd pick the one with the winning smile and luxurious hair, because he's the one who would better show the rest of the world what I want.
As for Bards, once again, remember that charisma is a COMPOUND stat. Nobody's claiming that a Cleric's ability to cast spells is based on how sharp his eyes are. We're just saying that there's a CORRELATION between how good the bard looks and how confident he is. But Bard really feels more Int based than Cha based anyway, based on the fluff. They practice, learn, and study, something Cha based casters rarely do.
2. Symmetry, smoothness, etc... You'd be hard pressed to find someone considered "Beautiful" in another real-world culture that isn't considered at least "pretty" to most of us. There's both a subjective AND an objective aspect to it.
3. Compare a more mundane example than beholders. Compare two housecats. Certainly you can see one cat as beautiful and aesthetic and absolutely must be petted RIGHT NOW and the other as a disgusting fleabag. The same would apply to beholders: some are more appealing to the eyes than others. Imagine one red dragon with scales that glitter like rubies, and another with dull, tarnished scales.
4. Well, Eagle's Splendor has no fluff text, but if we read the fluff on Sirine's Grace, the spell grants "confidence." Compound stat and all, sometimes buffs make you pretty, sometimes they add other attributes in the compound stat. Remember that Eagle's Splendor ALSO gives you a +2 to play the guitar. But surely you believe that if an Illithid took time to clean up, shine up, and put on appropriate makeup, it would be more pleasing to the eye than other illithids? Or at least you can imagine illithids that look WORSE than the normal ones?
5. My best friend was a scrawny, pale thing in middle school and high school. After that, he joined the marines. Now he's in good physical shape and has a healthy skin tone. Yes, time spent fighting in harsh environments makes you better looking.
And I'm not implying magical healing makes you prettier, I'm implying that it doesn't leave scars like natural healing does.
And yes, after seeing "The Dark Knight" I would agree that horrific burns should do CHA damage. Also SAN damage.
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Um... So a lot of arguing's been going back and forth, and I've kind of lost track of what, concisely, the arguments are and why we're arguing with eachother.
Also, if all the players and the GM were fine with it in a given game, I think sometimes you could let characters look like whatever they want and then follow the Kevin Siembada school of balancing, which is to say, not balance it at all because you've decided it doesn't need to be taken care of by rules.
I don't know. The classic Knight in Shining Armor ALWAYS has a winning smile, and he has the ability to get the other nobles to do whatever he want. I'm sure we've all met people, male and female, who can get others to do things with just a perfect smile.
Yes, as long as those are very small matters, like "help me carry this load, please".
Otherwise let us try to send a big shining face to Bush (or whoever else of similar rank) and ask for something which isn't already on his plans. Then let's count the seconds before he starts laughing. :D
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Ugly to Fair provides no benefits to the character. Attractive and Beatiful would have to be purchased as feats.But very few people would pick Ugly, which provides a -2 Cha skill penalty for no return. I guess you could have some of the less attractive races have to pick the trait, but in return they don't suffer an actual Charisma stat penalty. That way Pathfinder can have dwarf sorcerers without them having their magical powers penalized for being gruff.
but ugly should provide a +2 to some Cha skills - as previously stated, the joker is ugly, yet he has a high cha
I've played the ugly, scarred-faced, yet highly charismatic soldier. His physical appearance provided him with proof that he had been to war, and was not just carrying a blade to show it off, and that her would use it if he had to. This aided him in diplomacy when suggesting plans to generals on the battlefield, or intimidating thugs in the bars. And the stories he told about his exploits even got him free drinks now and then
it says it accounts for physical attractiveness, not that said physical attractiveness must be appealing - otherwise why would people cover themselves in tattoos? One of the traditional reasons was to scare the other side in battle
The first rule of rules is: Don't make a rule for something just to have a rule for it.
If you add a Physical Attractiveness stat, then you wind up with a matrix of modifiers from race-to-race relations. Frankly I don't care how attractive an aboleth is to an illithid. Adding this extra complexity is unnecessary, as most physical appearance aspects should be roleplayed, rather than rolled.
If necessary, work out with your DM that your facial scars give you +1 Intimidate and -1 Seduction.
Now that most of us have decided this issue is basically a non-issue, move on to higher priority cases like multiclassing, or cleric domains, or favored classes, or wizard spells per day. or.....
I can't believe people are actually defending "Charisma as physical attractivess".
I disguise myself as a Troll.
Somehow, my Charisma doesn't go down. Not even a little.
Therefore, clearly, Charisma isn't based on attractiveness.
Most of the arguments boil down to "you can have ugly high-CHA characters and pretty low-CHA characters anyway!" If that's the case, what's the freaking POINT of tying Charisma to attractiveness?
"Well, changing your Charisma doesn't change your attractiveness, high Charisma doesn't necessarily mean low attractiveness, and low Charisma doesn't necessarily mean high attractiveness. But Charisma is totally partially based on attractiveness we swear."
No, it's really not. The arguments against what BlaineTog wants show that pretty nicely.
Just get rid of the damn line about attractiveness already. What the hell is wrong with letting players decide how their character looks?
I can't believe people are actually defending "Charisma as physical attractivess".
I disguise myself as a Troll.
Somehow, my Charisma doesn't go down. Not even a little.
Therefore, clearly, Charisma isn't based on attractiveness.Most of the arguments boil down to "you can have ugly high-CHA characters and pretty low-CHA characters anyway!" If that's the case, what's the freaking POINT of tying Charisma to attractiveness?
That's pretty much my point: if your physical attractiveness has nothing to do with your CHA, then your CHA does not represent your physical attractiveness.
That's pretty much my point: if your physical attractiveness has nothing to do with your CHA, then your CHA does not represent your physical attractiveness.I can't believe people are actually defending "Charisma as physical attractivess".
I disguise myself as a Troll.
Somehow, my Charisma doesn't go down. Not even a little.
Therefore, clearly, Charisma isn't based on attractiveness.Most of the arguments boil down to "you can have ugly high-CHA characters and pretty low-CHA characters anyway!" If that's the case, what's the freaking POINT of tying Charisma to attractiveness?
Having a high charisma just means that you are pretty on the inside. :P
Overall, I agree that that charisma shouldn't really be attached to physical attractiveness.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It seems to me that what you guys are talking about is Physical Appearance. Prettiness, ugliness, looking like a troll, these are aspects of your physical appearance, subjective in nature, and something you can change with a disguise check.
And since the RAW specifically calls out subjective opinion as NOT part of Charisma, Physical Attractiveness must be something seperate and distinct from Physical Appearance.
Either that or the RAW contradicts itself in the space of two sentences. Not saying thats impossible, just saying I think otherwise.
For a thought experiment, let me ask you this:
Should having a high Charisma help character influence someone without speaking?
Should having a high Charisma help character influence someone without speaking?
I'm not going to answer; I'll just look at you until you agree with me, because of my krisma.
second the OPs motion. Character attractiveness ought to be left up to player preference, not stat blocks.
I always believe physical attractiveness in the Charisma score was ridiculous since the good old days of the box sets. One thing I liked with Unearthed Arcana for 1st Ed, was the optional separation ability score called Comeliness for physical attraction, though still disliked the mechanics of Comeliness as it is very subjective to the viewer.
So for all my characters I played, I always rolled another ability score and this last ability score was always assigned to Comeliness, even when the does not include it. This ability score was only used to generate the character's overall appearance to the typical man of the street for the character's race. If by chance beauty is required for a situation resolution, then the Comeliness score would be used as a guideline with a bunch of modifiers provided by the DM for the observer.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm not going to answer; I'll just look at you until you agree with me, because of my krisma.
Should having a high Charisma help character influence someone without speaking?
By giving me some pathetic, pleading puppy dog eyes? Or a stern, intimidating look?
Shouldn't a high Cha character be better at doing those things than a low Cha character?
I can see how referring to it as specifically attractiveness can throw some people, but I think some kind of physical element should definitely be retained. Maybe call it "Physical Presence" or something.
Hello all,
Wow, I'm impressed at the sheer amount of discussion here over such a seemingly small thing. Anywho, I figure I might as well throw in my thoughts.
I think the main difference with Charisma as opposed to many other stats is that, for instance, we can look at the Illithid's stat line. They have high charisma, but I think (man, I HOPE) that we all agree they're freakin' ugly. In fact, there are many bug ugly things in the monster manual that have high Charisma. What does this all mean? It means, simply, that though Charisma may sometimes include physical beauty, it clearly doesn't always do so.
So how about changing the line to read something like "...can include physical attractiveness as well..." Seems like a nice compromise that only adds a word or two.
Kayn
I don't see anything wrong with an ability score that has been that way for so many years without complaint. As people have said earlier, it's a compound trait and emcompasses many things foremost, strength of personality which helps in social settings. I don't see why this bothers anyone so much unless they use Charisma as a dump score in the point buy method to increase their other uber stats for min/maxing and don't want any of the possible negative repucussions of doing that...the possibility of having the personality of a rock or being socially inept or god forbid, not attractive.
In the point buy method, you dump strength for other scores and you'll have a horrible to-hit and massive problems with gear and weight. Dump dexterity and you have major problems with armor class, reflex saves and ranged attacks. Dump constitution and you'll have problems with hitpoints and Fort saves. Dump intelligence and you lose skill points and your character is unlearned, slow or stupid. Dump wisdom and you're not perceptive, have no common sense and have gimped Will saves. Dump charisma and what? You get penalized for a few Charisma based skills? That's the penalty for dumping Charisma? That's it? There's a reason most people use Charisma as a dump stat. There's not really a drawback. So yeah, if I DM and you have a low Charisma score, you're going to have some negative repurcussions. Slow witted, socially inept, awkward and blah looking. I'm not going to let a player use it as a dump stat and then turn around and say they're awesomely attractive with perfect cheekbones and luxurious hair and just cast aside the Charisma score. It's a fact, unless players are playing a Charisma class, they dump their Charisma score and their needs to be some kind of balancing penalty for that besides not being very good at diplomacy, bluff or dancing.
I don't see anything wrong with an ability score that has been that way for so many years without complaint.
It hasn't been without complaint. Does that mean there is something wrong with it now?
It's a fact, unless players are playing a Charisma class, they dump their Charisma score and their needs to be some kind of balancing penalty for that besides not being very good at diplomacy, bluff or dancing.
Being ugly is a balancing penalty?
I don't see anything wrong with an ability score that has been that way for so many years without complaint.It hasn't been without complaint. Does that mean there is something wrong with it now?
It's a fact, unless players are playing a Charisma class, they dump their Charisma score and their needs to be some kind of balancing penalty for that besides not being very good at diplomacy, bluff or dancing.Being ugly is a balancing penalty?
It's not but obviously it's a negative or this thread wouldn't exist. Maybe people have a certain image in their head of what their character looks like and you're not going to get that with me and a charisma of 6. Have a str, dex, con, int or wis of 6 and you'll notice the negatives. Have a charisma of 6 and unless you're dancing, bluffing or playing diplomat, you'll never suffer any drawbacks. So, I'd make them feel the drawbacks through roleplay and maybe a slight aversion to them.
It's not but obviously it's a negative or this thread wouldn't exist. Maybe people have a certain image in their head of what their character looks like and you're not going to get that with me and a charisma of 6. Have a str, dex, con, int or wis of 6 and you'll notice the negatives. Have a charisma of 6 and unless you're dancing, bluffing or playing diplomat, you'll never suffer any drawbacks. So, I'd make them feel the drawbacks through roleplay and maybe a slight aversion to them.
I would also be adverse to being forced to call my half-orc with a 16 charisma, "pretty."
I guess my dwarven sorcerer was, by necessity, very handsome, which I would also object to.
That would be a negative as well then.
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Why do you have to dictate that a character is ugly to make them feel the drawbacks through roleplay? I mean, do you need to have people react badly to the way someone looks as opposed to the way a person acts or sounds?
It's not but obviously it's a negative or this thread wouldn't exist. Maybe people have a certain image in their head of what their character looks like and you're not going to get that with me and a charisma of 6. Have a str, dex, con, int or wis of 6 and you'll notice the negatives. Have a charisma of 6 and unless you're dancing, bluffing or playing diplomat, you'll never suffer any drawbacks. So, I'd make them feel the drawbacks through roleplay and maybe a slight aversion to them.I would also be adverse to being forced to call my half-orc with a 16 charisma, "pretty."
I guess my dwarven sorcerer was, by necessity, very handsome, which I would also object to.
That would be a negative as well then.
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Why do you have to dictate that a character is ugly to make them feel the drawbacks through roleplay? I mean, do you need to have people react badly to the way someone looks as opposed to the way a person acts or sounds?
Yes. I need to have people react badly to the way someone looks and how they act and sound. Because penalizing someone for act or sound is not enough of a deterrent to dumping Charisma as a stat. You're typical powergamer's response to a character with a Charisma of 6 with no penalty to looks will be, "My character is attractive but is not social, doesn't like people and has a bad attitude". That's not much of a deterrent. For an attractive character to have a Charisma of 6, he must have some severe issues. Maybe uncouth, disgusting in public, flatulence...I don't know. I just have to make sure that Charisma doesn't become a dump stat to boost other scores and I know most players are vain and wouldn't like that they're character is not attractive. That's somewhat of an effective deterrent.
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I disagree. Physical attractiveness is more than just dimensions, its also posture and presentation, which come from self-confidence and social awareness.That's using physical attractiveness. Someone who is physically attractive is still physically attractive even if they're out cold; they just aren't posing it in any specific way.
No, there's definitely a mental component to physical attractiveness. For example, if your body is built perfectly, but you slouch, stare at your feet when you talk, fidget and twitch constantly, wear overly-conservative clothes, etc etc - all measures of low self-confidence - very few people will view you as being attractive.
I agree, sign me up!!!
No, there's definitely a mental component to physical attractiveness.
There's a mental component to using your physical appearance to your advantage, but how [i]physically[i] attractive you are is totally separate from it. And no matter what, how physically attractive people perceive you to be will still be highly subjective.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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No, there's definitely a mental component to physical attractiveness.There's a mental component to using your physical appearance to your advantage, but how physically attractive you are is totally separate from it. And no matter what, how physically attractive people perceive you to be will still be highly subjective.
If you don't use your appearance to your advantage, you Aren't Physically Attractive. Thats his point.
You keep asserting that when the RAW says "Physical Attractiveness" they mean being pretty, or handsome, or buxom, or some other passive trait. I think I've made a pretty good case that the RAW does not mean that, based on the line immediately following it. I'll quote it again:
"This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting." [Beta, pg 7]
To quote you again for evidence:
And no matter what, how physically attractive people perceive you to be will still be highly subjective.
Clearly you're thinking of attractiveness as being part of how people perceive you, and in that case, yes, that's subjective. Its also more accurately described as Appearance, not Attractiveness. And, as per the RAW, its already not part of Charisma. So really, your issue is not an issue.
By giving me some pathetic, pleading puppy dog eyes? Or a stern, intimidating look?I'm not going to answer; I'll just look at you until you agree with me, because of my krisma.
Should having a high Charisma help character influence someone without speaking?
Stern, intimidating puppy dog eyes. From a puppy hell hound.
I come up late in the discussion, but here's my 2 cents, for what its worth...
No matter how we try to say otherwise, I firmly believe that physical attractiveness DOES increase your chances of success in most, if not all, social interactions. Lets also make a point that physical attractiveness doesn't have to be beauty. Proper etiquette, posture, behavior, clothing, hygiene etc are part of what makes somebody attractive. Lets also point out that you may be "attracted" to somebody for other reason than sex. Success in business partnership is one of the main reason why people try to appear at their best nowadays, and similar correlations can be made in a medieval-fantasy setting.
That being said, Charisma, as far as the d20 system is concerned, is not exclusively used for social interactions. Spellcasting and the Use Magic Device skill are two example of non-social use of Charisma where I cannot see that without exception, physical attractiveness would bring any advantages.
I can only come to the conclusion that as far as the d20 system is concerned, physical attractiveness shouldn't be part of Charisma.
That being said, I find it too bad that physical attractiveness (which many posts in this tread suggested that it didn't have to be a synonym of cuteness or sexiness) is not mechanically represented in d20 or PF if it isn't part of Charisma.
'findel
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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That being said, Charisma, as far as the d20 system is concerned, is not exclusively used for social interactions. Spellcasting and the Use Magic Device skill are two example of non-social use of Charisma where I cannot see that without exception, physical attractiveness would bring any advantages.
I suppose then that we should get rid of "persuasiveness, personal magnetism, and ability to lead" along with physical attractiveness then? Unless the sorcerer is asking the spells nicely to cast themselves?
Sorry if that came off snarky, I just feel like everyone is coming at this backwards, and ignoring the parts of the RAW they don't like.
Physical Attractiveness doesn't make you charismatic, Charisma makes you physically attractive, among other things. I think this is demonstrable mechanically in the game and anecdotally in the real world. Thats why people were bringing up supposedly ugly people who still managed to become sex symbols. Their appearance doesn't conform to societal tastes of the time, but they were Charismatic, and thus people found them physically attractive.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Stern, intimidating puppy dog eyes. From a puppy hell hound.By giving me some pathetic, pleading puppy dog eyes? Or a stern, intimidating look?I'm not going to answer; I'll just look at you until you agree with me, because of my krisma.
Should having a high Charisma help character influence someone without speaking?
I guess not all dogs go to heaven after all...
Physical Attractiveness doesn't make you charismatic, Charisma makes you physically attractive, among other things. I think this is demonstrable mechanically in the game and anecdotally in the real world. Thats why people were bringing up supposedly ugly people who still managed to become sex symbols. Their appearance doesn't conform to societal tastes of the time, but they were Charismatic, and thus people found them physically attractive.
You've got a point here.
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Physical Attractiveness doesn't make you charismatic, Charisma makes you physically attractive, among other things. I think this is demonstrable mechanically in the game and anecdotally in the real world. Thats why people were bringing up supposedly ugly people who still managed to become sex symbols. Their appearance doesn't conform to societal tastes of the time, but they were Charismatic, and thus people found them physically attractive.
Wrong. They found them sexy or merely attractive. A great personality may be enough to overlook undesirable physical traits, but it doesn't make those traits desirable.
Well I'm sticking to my dump stat theory. You guys hash out whether appearance is a part of Charisma or not. Just make sure it doesn't any changes makes it a more important stat so people stop dumping the stat to boost other more important stats.
I don’t get it.
If the players want to perceive their characters as physically attractive or not is their right (though without a Charisma of at least 10 their going to have some flaws that will offset it) and if it’s the NPC’s…well why the Hell are you telling the players what an NPC’ charisma is in the first place?
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But the idea is that if you are good looking, you are even better in influencing people as you would be without looking good. That's why charisma and appearance are not completely unrelated. But great charisma does not require great beauty (Darth "walking refridgerator" Vader), nor does beauty cause great charisma (Paris "Charisma 6" Hilton). ^^"And please, think of any situation in which you might be making a Diplomacy check in person and try and tell me that physical appearance won't affect it at all."
Two words: Henry Kissinger. ;)
I agree, you can easily play someone who's ugly(whether they were disfigured in life or born beaten with the ugly stick) with high Charisma. In some ways, Charisma simply makes you noticable. Its also your force of personality, like others have said.
There are several historical instances of ugly people with the equivilent of high charisma ratings. Kissinger would be one example. Adolf Hitler another.
That dude was ugly, wore a Charlie Chaplin mustache(which got some mockery itself), and overall wasn't very nice; yet he whipped a whole country into a fanatical frenzy that led into a world war.
Around the same time, there was this fat man with a limp; who through eloquence, ingenuity, and personality, helped to lead the British against overwhelming odds and an exceptionally demoralizing force. He was known as Winston Churchill.
That said, they each may have had an easier time of it if they didn't look like the wrong end of a dog. :P
Physical Attractiveness doesn't make you charismatic, Charisma makes you physically attractive, among other things. I think this is demonstrable mechanically in the game and anecdotally in the real world. Thats why people were bringing up supposedly ugly people who still managed to become sex symbols. Their appearance doesn't conform to societal tastes of the time, but they were Charismatic, and thus people found them physically attractive.
That can be percieved like that, but it doesn't mean everyone will, and someone said before, that physical attraction is about personal preference. Even if a lot of people share common prefferences, doesn't mean EVERYONE will. What you said above is no different.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Wrong. They found them sexy or merely attractive. A great personality may be enough to overlook undesirable physical traits, but it doesn't make those traits desirable.
That can be percieved like that, but it doesn't mean everyone will, and someone said before, that physical attraction is about personal preference. Even if a lot of people share common prefferences, doesn't mean EVERYONE will. What you said above is no different.
But like I've said about a billion times, the rules specifically say "how other people percieve you" is NOT part of Charisma. That means physical traits (like appearance), and whether people consider them desireable or not, are irrelevant to the discussion.
My assertion is that being 'charismatic' gives one the ability to attract other people by using one's physical body, regardless of one's personal appearance. Thus, charisma makes one Physically Attractive.
What I'm NOT saying is that Charisma makes one conform to any one person's or society's ideal representation of a human/whatever being.
It seems like the latter element is everyone wants removed from the rules, and I'd agree if I felt that were in the rules. I just think, from reading the entire entry for Charisma, that the RAW pretty clearly rules out this interpretation. Thus: No problem with the rules.