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So Shelelu comes to town and has the meeting with the PCs, Hemlock says he's going to go to magnimar and see about getting soldiers. Party says, "no are you crazy, goblins are massing and your going to leave, its a beurocracy so you probably won't get them anyways" So the meeting goes on and on, and despite my hints and attempts to get it through the characters skulls without coming right out and saying it. the party refuses to stay in town and make their presence known, they decided to leave (they haven't even done the glassworks or the catacombs of wrath) to head to the thistletop region and try and "cut off the head". So now i have some level one PCs (i threw them a cheap little goblin fight so they'd hit level 2) about to try and skip straight to thistletop. I want an encounter or two to get them hopefully to level three at least. But I also need to know what's going on with them gone. Since the party left, Hemlock decided to stay behind and I was thinking of having him die investigating the glassworks, then the party would encounter tsuto as he and his goblins were heading back to thistletop with amieko all tied up. but as to what else to do. I don't know.
... to head to the thistletop region and try and "cut off the head". So now i have some level one PCs (i threw them a cheap little goblin fight so they'd hit level 2) about to try and skip straight to thistletop. I want an encounter or two to get them hopefully to level three at least. But I also need to know what's going on with them gone. ...
They're out of town already, huh?
Some ideas:
* Goblins raid an outlying farm. The PCs stop it. Have them on goblin dogs or have a goblin snake to add variety. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
* Have them break up the attack that netted them that war horse or have the PCs catch them as they bundle up the horse and bring it back to Thistletop. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
* Have the garbage dump goblins, which are basically serving as food for the bunyip, leave and run into the PCs. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
The thistle maze is difficult to navigate. You could tell them that they simply don't know how to get to Thistletop by land. True, this might inspire them to approach by boat (and get stuff thrown on them from the tower, and face the tentamort in its cave) but if you combine this with the Seven Tooth goblins spilling the beans about the smugglers' cave (as suggested above) it might delay them enough to get to third-level.
If they insist on forging ahead anyway, I say let them. They're ahead of schedule, so not everything will be in place yet.
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First ; how do they intend to find which goblins are involved ?
The goblins who did attack the town were of different tribes. So do they intend to visit each tribe ? The risk being that while they attack one tribe, the other ones will attack the town with their bossesSecondly : Have Shalelu flatly refuse to have them with her. Have her say she needs to scout the tribes to know where the impetus is and that it will take several days.
Thirdly : Have the sherif, the priest and the mayor become less helpful with the characters.
First, they don't know which tribe attacked but they know they are gathering in the forest, that thistletop is in. So they were just going to blindly start searching the forest.
Second, they left town without Shalelu, they were about to go into the forest when I had Shalelu catch up to them and tell them to stop and that she would scout out if they gave her three days time. Even then they said and I quote "We aren't going back to town" so that one was already tried and failed, they are currently waiting for her in the rocky pass on the regional map. I think she's gonna get captured and kept alive for Brathazmus, that way the PC's can rescue her.
Thirdly, they aren't in town, how am I supposed to have the sherrif be less friendly?
I would advise against your solution with Tsuto since this would remove the chances the characters have to discover the catacombs
One possible solution if one character has tracking is to have some goblins waiting in the cave near the sea exit of the catacombs for Tsuto to arrive and to guide your characters here
Just out of curiosity how does it prevent them learning about the catacombs, tsuto is going to have ameiko tied up with him. If the PCs rescue ameiko she can tell them all about what happened at the glassworks and it might even be impetus for them to go back and investigate? Also the catacombs are the semi-optional dungeon, even if they don't learn about it now, they can always run through it afterwards it'll be easier, but I can add a few more sinspawn and toughen up what's her name. I was thinking that they'd learn of sinspawn attacks when they got back and that would lead to the catacombs.
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... to head to the thistletop region and try and "cut off the head". So now i have some level one PCs (i threw them a cheap little goblin fight so they'd hit level 2) about to try and skip straight to thistletop. I want an encounter or two to get them hopefully to level three at least. But I also need to know what's going on with them gone. ...They're out of town already, huh?
Some ideas:
* Goblins raid an outlying farm. The PCs stop it. Have them on goblin dogs or have a goblin snake to add variety. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
* Have them break up the attack that netted them that war horse or have the PCs catch them as they bundle up the horse and bring it back to Thistletop. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
* Have the garbage dump goblins, which are basically serving as food for the bunyip, leave and run into the PCs. A captured goblin spills the beans about the back entrance to Sandpoint through the smuggler's tunnels.
good ideas unfortunately I've allready established that when goblins are captured they basically go into a kinda mindless rage trying to escape or kill themselves and can't really be questioned. I think it'd be bad writing to have them find the one goblin that doesn't.
You can have them assault another tribe of goblins as they're wandering around. This would give them some more XP and give you a chance to provide some more information (i.e., that they got into town with help, the leaders seemed to be "longshanks," and maybe that the Thistletop goblins had an important role in the raid). Then, when they return to Sandpoint to rest/resupply, spring the "Missing Bartender" hook on them.
Or, you could let them attack Thistletop (if they're searching in the correct area). If they are driven off, you can add the Glassworks when they get back to Sandpoint. If they manage to actually succeed in assaulting Thistletop, the Glassworks can be run as "tying up loose ends."
The only "problem" with the party going off on their own is that they will not have the good-will of Sheriff Hemlock and other town leaders at the start of The Skinsaw Murders...
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You can have them assault another tribe of goblins as they're wandering around. This would give them some more XP and give you a chance to provide some more information (i.e., that they got into town with help, the leaders seemed to be "longshanks," and maybe that the Thistletop goblins had an important role in the raid). Then, when they return to Sandpoint to rest/resupply, spring the "Missing Bartender" hook on them.
Or, you could let them attack Thistletop (if they're searching in the correct area). If they are driven off, you can add the Glassworks when they get back to Sandpoint. If they manage to actually succeed in assaulting Thistletop, the Glassworks can be run as "tying up loose ends."
The only "problem" with the party going off on their own is that they will not have the good-will of Sheriff Hemlock and other town leaders at the start of The Skinsaw Murders...
That and the fact that we have an established demonic character that is a heart eater in the group. I can see skinsaw murders getting a lot more risky for the PCs. In fact framing them will be really easy, so instead of a the goodwill of hemlock it'll be a prove their innocence.
good ideas unfortunately I've allready established that when goblins are captured they basically go into a kinda mindless rage trying to escape or kill themselves and can't really be questioned. I think it'd be bad writing to have them find the one goblin that doesn't.
Twenty Birdcruncher goblins were captured by the Thistletop goblins and kept penned up for many days. In order to stay consistent with your "mindless rage" element you could either say that the Birdrcuncher captives all raged and escaped/died, in which case Nualia has a much increased need for living sacrifices, or else you could say that different bands react differently (eg perhaps it's the Licktoad goblins who fly into a mindless rage), in which case you could still proceed with some of roguerouge's goblin ideas.
The problem is they could consider the situation with the glassworks as resolved so they would never ever go in the tunnels . There is little reason for Ameiko to mention there was a side tunnel .
I'm not so sure. She has just inherited the Glassworks, and I think she'd want to have some people make very sure that nothing horrible was going to come up at her out of her basement. As a retired adventurer herself I expect she'd know the value of hiring expendable people to go into dark, dangerous places.
Out of curiousity, what is it the PCs are saying they want to do? What is their plan?
They chose, fairly knowingly, to jump tracks of the adventure, which is fine, but leave them with a lot more responsibility to drive the action. What is it they are heading out looking for?
Maybe it is also a time to set the players aside and ask them if this an adventure they are interested in or if you should just move on to something else.
Sean Mahoney
Out of curiousity, what is it the PCs are saying they want to do? What is their plan?
They chose, fairly knowingly, to jump tracks of the adventure, which is fine, but leave them with a lot more responsibility to drive the action. What is it they are heading out looking for?
Maybe it is also a time to set the players aside and ask them if this an adventure they are interested in or if you should just move on to something else.
Sean Mahoney
This.
There's a social contract established between the players and DM whenever you sit down to play D&D with a group. The DM agrees to provide the players with an entertaining and engaging adventure, and the players agree to meet the DM halfway in an effort to complete that adventure. If they purposefully leave the bounds of the adventure knowing full well that it goes into unplanned territory, they're violating that social contract and you ought to figure out if there isn't something they'd rather be doing.
As Sean sort of mentioned I'd be a bit concerned about the utter stubbornness of your players, but other than that nothing wrong with what they're doing!
My players were mostly 2nd level (due to a couple player swaps) even *after* the catacombs. They finished with a draw vs. the druid and retreated. Then Shelelu found them as they attempted to hide, and led them to a more hidden campsite, but had to draw off Bruthazmus' search.
They may die, but they aren't so bad off.
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Out of curiousity, what is it the PCs are saying they want to do? What is their plan?
They chose, fairly knowingly, to jump tracks of the adventure, which is fine, but leave them with a lot more responsibility to drive the action. What is it they are heading out looking for?
Maybe it is also a time to set the players aside and ask them if this an adventure they are interested in or if you should just move on to something else.
Sean Mahoney
This.
There's a social contract established between the players and DM whenever you sit down to play D&D with a group. The DM agrees to provide the players with an entertaining and engaging adventure, and the players agree to meet the DM halfway in an effort to complete that adventure. If they purposefully leave the bounds of the adventure knowing full well that it goes into unplanned territory, they're violating that social contract and you ought to figure out if there isn't something they'd rather be doing.
It's not so much that they were jumping tracks I think as they just thought that Hemlock leaving when the goblins were massing was a really bad idea, they kept trying to talk him out of it as much as say their being in town if goblins attack wouldn't help. They seem to believe the best course of action is to go straight to thistletop, I don't know, I guess I just didn't want them to get overwhelmed. I think I'll have the tsuto thing happen and then they'll have to escort ameiko back to town. then if I can't get them into the catacombs of wrath I'll let them just make their way.
Also the tribes thing is a good idea on how to have a goblin captive, but when I read how they get raised I just can't imagine anything less from captivity. OTOH depending on how the Tsuto thing works out maybe I won't have too.
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As Sean sort of mentioned I'd be a bit concerned about the utter stubbornness of your players, but other than that nothing wrong with what they're doing!
My players were mostly 2nd level (due to a couple player swaps) even *after* the catacombs. They finished with a draw vs. the druid and retreated. Then Shelelu found them as they attempted to hide, and led them to a more hidden campsite, but had to draw off Bruthazmus' search.
They may die, but they aren't so bad off.
randomly find them self out of the forest 5 days later. they try to go back to town, give them a chance to get lost again, with a possibility of sighting the sandpoint devil... Then let them decide if they live or die
Also the tribes thing is a good idea on how to have a goblin captive, but when I read how they get raised I just can't imagine anything less from captivity.
Yeah, I varied that by tribe. My players wanted to play non-evil goblins, and like you I thought that the method of "child raising" wasn't conducive to that. The Thistletop goblins do that, but the Birdcrunchers don't (IMC).
Don't panic.
You have already let them reach 2nd Level. They should be able to handle Thistletop just fine. Nothing in the brambles is beyond the abilities of a Lvl 2 party. (Yes, the goblin druid will be kind of rough, but not insurmountable.)
Just have some idea to how the Thistletop survivors react when the party pulls back. Consider also a population growth rate, to replace losses from the PCs assault. (And if the party is not careful in how they retreat, it could get them into a LOT of trouble from the Bugbear Ranger.)
It can also be noted that in the modules design notes, that the Catacomes of Wrath are "optional" (. . . and would have been one of the 10 page set pieces if Paizo was doing that then.) So don't worry too much.
As for my group, I might have preferred them to have dealt with Thistletop first. The Quasit is a tough fight.
Let the goblin force have a couple of bugbears, Bruthamus' younger (and weaker) cousins Tharanus and Baelinus. These young bruisers wander the wilderness, under orders to gather some stray goblins and bring them to the smugglers' tunnels for the big brouhaha. Because they don't share goblins' dislike of writing, the humans gave them a map to the smugglers' cave.
After the party encounters those two in the wilds, they're likely to return and warn the town (or try to block the tunnel). This becomes even more likely if they're already badly torn up by fights among the brambles.
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So Shelelu comes to town and has the meeting with the PCs, Hemlock says he's going to go to magnimar and see about getting soldiers. Party says, "no are you crazy, goblins are massing and your going to leave, its a beurocracy so you probably won't get them anyways" So the meeting goes on and on, and despite my hints and attempts to get it through the characters skulls without coming right out and saying it. the party refuses to stay in town and make their presence known, they decided to leave (they haven't even done the glassworks or the catacombs of wrath) to head to the thistletop region and try and "cut off the head".
Idea..
Could use that hunting side quest they get invited to (but probably didn't because of how they're playing.) Have the party come across the hunting party as it gets attacked by goblins. Have the main NPC guy (forget his name) that should have invited them get injured in the attack and have to be brought back to town by the PCs. Have him promise them a reward.
Before the PCs can leave town again (if they try), have the goblins attack the town again. Have a couple flee to the glassworks as the attack twarted. This might lead them toward the glassworks and back on track.
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If you really don't mind hitting them over the head with plot, then keep in mind that those old smuggling tunnels are extensive. Maybe that rocky pass they're camping out in used to have a loading tunnel where ships could quickly drop their illegal cargo quickly to be picked up later. If one of them does something violent or heavy (maybe you can provoke an in-party fight), have that old wood give way and drop them 60 feet or so onto some 50-year-old sacks of smuggled grain (to break the fall). Odds are, they can't get out the way they came in, so they'll stumble along, find the Catacombs, and then either hit the cave or the glassworks basement (depending on your preference).
If you don't want to do this, don't feel too bad. My team and I were only 2nd level when we hit Thistletop, and we didn't die.
I'd be more concerned about the demonic heart-eater. That's not really a 'heroic' archetype, and I could see it causing issues next adventure. Or at least hypocrisy.
My party got through the whole of Thistletop at level 2, but they were playing PF Alpha rules (that makes them level 3) and they were 6 of them.
The biggest problem I see are the Yeth Hounds (not even considering the barghest). Their DR is tough for a lvl 1 party, specially in combination with their flight. They almost got rid of my whole party (but I disallow level upping during a dungeon foray, they need downtime, so they remained at lvl 2 for the whole dungeon), so it could be a risk.
As suggested above, hit them hard so they have to retreat from Thistletop after cleaning out some of it, then make them run into Tsuto and Ameiko and try drawing them to the Catacombs and Glassworks.
Another possibility: while they are recovering in town, use the plot device from Sins of the Saviors: a sinkhole in town reveals an access to the catacombs. Make it partial, so the stuff from PFA 5 is still a secret. For additional enticement, have some bug creep out and menace the locals, perhaps one Sinspawn. That's going to draw them in for sure (and toughen them up with experience and magic items).
One thing you can do is instead of trying to force your players back to Glassworks. Granted it is a fun and wonderful encounter you could actually have those goblins and Tsuto traveling with Ameiko for delivery to Thisletop.
This lets your PCs level up a bit more by giving them XP for those encounters and may give you a chance to lead Ameiko back to town or give them a character they have to shield. And later you can have Ameiko already happy about them rescuing her asks them for another favor about strange sounds from the tunnels under her new company.
May not want to kill off the Sheriff because already leaving town when in need of help they will have a very hard time of convincing people of their innocents when they are set up to take the fall. Also with Ameiko on their side they will have at least one powerful NPC taking there side.
Also since they are going quickly towards Thisletop remember that the adventure is allowing some time to pass between the attack and their arrival at said place. The area would have a slightly different feel since more of the goblins will be alive instead of sacrificed or given to the bunyip. And guard would be less lacks because they goblins are still charged up from the burning and pillaging they have taken part in.
And I like Immora’s idea as well.
There's a social contract established between the players and DM whenever you sit down to play D&D with a group. The DM agrees to provide the players with an entertaining and engaging adventure, and the players agree to meet the DM halfway in an effort to complete that adventure. If they purposefully leave the bounds of the adventure knowing full well that it goes into unplanned territory, they're violating that social contract and you ought to figure out if there isn't something they'd rather be doing.
I quoted this to one of my players, and she's been teasing me about social contracts ever since. Man, if only I'd had such an easy time as my players simply going to Thistletop and skipping the Glassworks! :D
I mean, they did that too. In fact they went to Thistletop before the Swallowtail Festival, and then they skipped the Swallowtail Festival.
My point is that every group's social contract is different. It's worth figuring out what your players expect though. Even if you don't sit them down and tell them to obey the social contract it's worth having a talk and at least establishing expectations. Personally, I'll run whatever kind of game my group wants me to run, but I want to know ahead of time at least a little bit about what they're after.
There's a social contract established between the players and DM whenever you sit down to play D&D with a group. The DM agrees to provide the players with an entertaining and engaging adventure, and the players agree to meet the DM halfway in an effort to complete that adventure. If they purposefully leave the bounds of the adventure knowing full well that it goes into unplanned territory, they're violating that social contract and you ought to figure out if there isn't something they'd rather be doing.I quoted this to one of my players, and she's been teasing me about social contracts ever since. Man, if only I'd had such an easy time as my players simply going to Thistletop and skipping the Glassworks! :D
I mean, they did that too. In fact they went to Thistletop before the Swallowtail Festival, and then they skipped the Swallowtail Festival.
My point is that every group's social contract is different. It's worth figuring out what your players expect though. Even if you don't sit them down and tell them to obey the social contract it's worth having a talk and at least establishing expectations. Personally, I'll run whatever kind of game my group wants me to run, but I want to know ahead of time at least a little bit about what they're after.
Exactly. A group that sits down and says, "Sure, we'll play that adventure!" and then proceeds to run off and do things that said adventure doesn't cover at all needs to discuss what sort of game they're interested in playing. For most DMs, the ability to plan for a game ahead of time is invaluable, and players can potentially ruin that planning by doing something completely unexpected. Sometimes it's a little deviation that isn't too much trouble to simply wing. Other times, though, it would involve creating entire sets of encounters, slowing the game to a halt. If this happens, and the players still insist on continuing, I'd say a DM is perfectly within his rights to call the session there so that he can have time to plan for the PCs' actions. Let them know that's what will happen so that they can decide differently if they want to continue playing that day.
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Okay guys I understand that you are trying to help with the social contract stuff, I do. But it really isn't the case of not following the adventure hooks, it's that they honestly felt that what they were doing was better for the town than having Hemlock go to Magnimar. And considering the results when he gets back it looks like they pretty much called it. Anyways, it's not that they ignore plot hooks, they went along with the boar hunt, and they caught the goblin in the house before he could even kill anyone (two of the PCs slept outside and I had rolled randomly to determine where in the town the house was, they were close enough to overhear the kid screaming so they went to investigate and of course the elf checks the closet and rolls a nat 20 on his detect secret doors ability and was a ranger so his perception is maxed). So they normally keep to plot hooks. I wasn't looking for social resolutions but for plot hook suggestions. I think I'll take the smugglers tunnel idea and have them encounter Tsuto while he is emerging from the tunnels with amieko and the goblins, they'll be able to decide to investigate afterwards or they can go on to Shelelu and hit thistletop.
But it really isn't the case of not following the adventure hooks, it's that they honestly felt that what they were doing was better for the town than having Hemlock go to Magnimar.
Thanks for clarifying that. I understand better now that you've explained.
I think that you're onto something with the side quests. If those aren't enough then you can always do something more with the other nearby goblin bands, or even the bugbears who supposedly live in Devil's Platter. I ran a fun little dungeon crawl down the Wisher's Well, which also helped establish that this area was an ancient war zone.
Another option if they're more roleplaying-oriented is to lay some groundwork for later events, such as by letting them meet the other Vinder daughter, or even visit the Hambley farm. With an infernal guy who eats hearts you're likely not going to have an easy time with the usual hooks down the line, so some prep now might help avert this sort of thing in the future.
Let us know how it works out!
Why don't you have them meet a group of goblins from one of the worker's from the glassworks. The worker could be captured to be sacrificed at the the temple at Thistletop.
After they defeat the golblins the worker can tell them that the goblins are at the glassworks and are going to hurt/kill Ameiko and her father. This would hopefully change their direction.
My party actually did Thistletop first as well, and it worked out fine. They dealt with Tsuto at the glassworks, but then decided the goblins were a bigger threat and went to Thistletop instead of the catacombs. To drive them back to the catacombs, I made sure there were references to Erylium (as a mentor to Nualia), the catacombs, and the runewell (My party had no idea what Erylium was, assuming it to be a person). There is also reference Erylium and her sinspawn joining in the final assault "from the catacombs beneath the town" in the war room" on the second level of Thistletop. With enough hints, it was pretty obvious too them that some whispering evil had lied dormant under Sandpoint for a long time. In fact, it had a great effect, because they rushed off to fight the goblins, only to learn they had left something more sinister back home.
You probably will want to throw in a random farm raid or two just to make sure they hit second level. If you read ahead into Skinsaw, it would even give you a great opportunity to let the PCs meet and get connected to some of the farmers who come into play in the next adventure, giving you some nice extra depth. Plus, they would pick up some XP, and either track or interrogate one of the goblins to find their way to Thistletop. (You can always move Tsuto and Ameiko to Thistetop and skip the entire glassworks.) I woud just play it loose and have fun with it – Burnt Offerings is one of the best “sandbox” adventures I have ever ran.
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Thanks for all the tips/advice guys, I'm starting to look at the adventure and see how I can roll them around and switch them up. My players warned me in the begining that they didn't want to feel like they were on tracks and I hope to be able to show them that i can keep them in the adventure without being a conductor.