
achan_hiarusa |

The biggest and most unfair thing about 3.5 was that the druid could freely upgrade his animal companion, but the wizard had to spend a feat. I hated that feat and never used it, instead using level adjustments for familiars just like the druid got. I thought it was ridiculous that no matter how many HD the familiar had, it always had 1/2 the wizard's hit points among other things. Just be consistent with the way "pets" are treated.

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I agree with you on getting rid of improved familiar as a feat, but not on the hp issue, the problem is that an animal companion doesn't have the same advantages as a familiar, an animal companion is basically a beat stick or scout with regular animal intelligence, a familiar however becomes more intelligent, taking on human intelligence it can therefor do more things also it represents a greater link to the master.

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Another thing to reflect on with Pathfinder.
The new skill system.
Since familiars have access to their master's skills, it was always possible, albiet underhanded, to let the familiar use that access for 'aid another' or just roll their own to give that extra skill check on knowlege, perform, etc etc. Trigger the Wonder Horse will never be able to roll Knowlege (arcana) Rocky the squirrel familiar will.
Now extend this to use magic device. With the Alpha skills (which I hope make it into beta) Wally Wizard or Sally Sorcerer can have a pretty good rank in UMD. If Wally has Regina Raven or Sally has Psaul Pseudodragon or Molly Mephit it can give them a free action every round with a wand or a staff or another item.
Druid: I cast animal growth on Barney Bear and tell him attack.
Wizard: I'm going to tell Molly Mephit to fly over here, and then read cone of cold from the scroll. Oh, sorry, was Barney in there?

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Well, familiars do improve. Perhaps not as dramatically at animal companions and there is an argument for giving them a bit more on the defensive abilities side.
But comparing the two is apples and oranges, they have very different roles:
-A familiar is a lifelong aide and companion that assist a wizard.
-An animal companion is a valued ally that, sooner or later, will perish fighting at at the side of the druid.

Dennis da Ogre |

Familiars aren't meant to be as potent as animal companions. If an animal companion is that important then be a druid. It's a game of choices.
Wizards get the kick butt spell list, druids get the animal companion and wild shape. At least the wizard can take Improved Familiar and upgrade, the druid is stuck with the same spell list regardless.
Complaining that familiars suck then suggesting they take away the only way a wizard has of improving them seems a bit of an odd position to me.

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Familiars aren't meant to be as potent as animal companions. If an animal companion is that important then be a druid. It's a game of choices.
Wizards get the kick butt spell list, druids get the animal companion and wild shape. At least the wizard can take Improved Familiar and upgrade, the druid is stuck with the same spell list regardless.
Complaining that familiars suck then suggesting they take away the only way a wizard has of improving them seems a bit of an odd position to me.
I'm not sure "stuck with" is the best term to use when describing the druid spell list. They have some of the best "board control" spells in the game, offensive, defensive, and buffing spells, healing (and condition removal) second only to clerics, and the ability to, with a single feat, cast all of them while wildshaped, which can be just sick. Druids are in no way, shape, or form hurting. A very strong case can be made for them being the strongest class in the entire game.

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Familiars aren't meant to be as potent as animal companions. If an animal companion is that important then be a druid. It's a game of choices.
Wizards get the kick butt spell list, druids get the animal companion and wild shape. At least the wizard can take Improved Familiar and upgrade, the druid is stuck with the same spell list regardless.
Complaining that familiars suck then suggesting they take away the only way a wizard has of improving them seems a bit of an odd position to me.
He wasn't saying get rid of the ability to improve, he was saying that the feat should be removed and *worked into the class ability* so that when you hit level 7 you can trade up for that mephit without needing the feat. You ok dennis, I've seen a couple of posts from you today and you seem to be coming across harsher than normal?

Dennis da Ogre |

He wasn't saying get rid of the ability to improve, he was saying that the feat should be removed and *worked into the class ability* so that when you hit level 7 you can trade up for that mephit without needing the feat. You ok dennis, I've seen a couple of posts from you today and you seem to be coming across harsher than normal?
Hmm... maybe. My snark suppression is on the fritz. I guess I better go back and look at what other damage I've done ;)
I actually understood what he intended but it is poorly worded. Saying "Improved Familiar. GET RID OF IT!" is not an effective way to say "Familiars should scale".
Regardless, familiars are an odd topic. Some people love them and want them to be better. Many people feel they are an awkward distraction and not really a class feature at all. Boosting the familiar without taking something away boosts the classes power as a whole which IMO is a poor choice considering the wizard is already top tier in power. Taking away other class powers is also a poor choice because as I said many people don't like care for familiars (which is why arcane bond was created).
Having a feat to improve the familiar is a perfect compromise in my opinion. People who want to improve it can, people who want to focus on the core wizard have that option.
Comparing it to the druids animal companion is not really relevant, each class has a unique set of powers and class features.

Dennis da Ogre |

I'm not sure "stuck with" is the best term to use when describing the druid spell list. They have some of the best "board control" spells in the game, offensive, defensive, and buffing spells, healing (and condition removal) second only to clerics, and the ability to, with a single feat, cast all of them while wildshaped, which can be just sick. Druids are in no way, shape, or form hurting. A very strong case can be made for them being the strongest class in the entire game.
I agree that the druid is quite powerful. I think the Wildshape nerf and the loss of spells/ day seriously put a dent in the 'strongest class in the game' title though.
In general the wizards spells are more flexible and more powerful and that is one of the 'features' of the class. When I say stuck with I was just referring to the fact that you cannot take a feat and improve the druids spell list the way you can improve a familiar with a feat.

Ixancoatl |

I have to agree with the OP, aside from the 1/2 hp statement (I've never had issue with that part, and I think someone brought up my reasons already). I've always thought wizards should have a tiered choice list for familiars the same way druids do. It always seemed off-kilter for a wizard to burn a feat to get a small air elemental, but a druid just has to wait a few levels to get a crocodile to help out (which I must tell you is fun to have as an animal companion ... great when sailors fall off ships near your croc companion ... ;-) )
I do think that once the choice is made, it should be a "death do you part" thing. I don't think the familiar should be "traded up" the way animal companions are. I've always seen the familar's bond as stronger than the animal companion's bond. If a wizard chooses to wait to gain a familiar until later in their career or if they have a familiar die (and lose the XP for it), they could pick up a familiar of (what would have been) improved ranking, but with chart progression a few levels behind a "normal animal" type familiar.

Ixancoatl |

When I say stuck with I was just referring to the fact that you cannot take a feat and improve the druids spell list the way you can improve a familiar with a feat.
Technically, you're not "improving" an existing familiar. You can only take the improved familiar if you have an opening to take a familiar, as in you haven't taken one yet. Once you have a familiar, you no longer have the ability "to gain a familiar" which is what the feat requires. And, if you get rid of the familiar you have, you'd lose XP. You're not magically transforming an existing familiar into a different creature.

Dennis da Ogre |

Dennis da Ogre wrote:When I say stuck with I was just referring to the fact that you cannot take a feat and improve the druids spell list the way you can improve a familiar with a feat.Technically, you're not "improving" an existing familiar. You can only take the improved familiar if you have an opening to take a familiar, as in you haven't taken one yet. Once you have a familiar, you no longer have the ability "to gain a familiar" which is what the feat requires. And, if you get rid of the familiar you have, you'd lose XP. You're not magically transforming an existing familiar into a different creature.
If you want to get nit picky about rules there is no XP penalty for losing a familiar anymore. As for whether you are improving a familiar by replacing it or not... aren't we just splitting hairs here?
Something snarky removed to placate lkl :)

achan_hiarusa |

Yes, my title was misleading, but I made what I said clear in the post. Improved Familiar is something that basically druids get for free with their animal companions. And familiars need something to compensate for the fact that they aren't combat effective, they can't even scout decently if they get caught.

Dennis da Ogre |

Yes, my title was misleading, but I made what I said clear in the post. Improved Familiar is something that basically druids get for free with their animal companions. And familiars need something to compensate for the fact that they aren't combat effective, they can't even scout decently if they get caught.
Well no, they don't need to be compensated. You are under the mistaken impression that a familiar is equivalent to an animal companion and it is not. They are not designed to be combatants, nor should they be upgraded to be combat effective without removing some other class features from the wizard.
The wizard is already one of the most powerful classes in the game. Wizards don't need free upgrades.

The Black Bard |

Umm, you never lost XP if you willingly dismissed your familiar. But on a separate note (I agree with the OP and have houseruled it as such for many years) consider this:
To acquire your new familiar, you must wait a year and a day of in game time, regardless of whether your origional was killed or voluntarily dismissed.
That, I cry, is lame. Even Paladins don't get as screwed as that.
Hence houserules on my part. Voluntary dismissal of a familiar does not cause that penalty. Upgrading familiars works "along" species lines if possible. Cat "evolves" into cougar. Iguana evolves into shocker lizard. Hawk can even "evolve" into air elemental. I don't mind that, its more flavorful (I have a small air elemental, yay! Oh yeah, I have a small earth elemental thats roughly toad shaped, and hates flies with a passion!"

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I have to agree with the OP, aside from the 1/2 hp statement (I've never had issue with that part, and I think someone brought up my reasons already). I've always thought wizards should have a tiered choice list for familiars the same way druids do. It always seemed off-kilter for a wizard to burn a feat to get a small air elemental, but a druid just has to wait a few levels to get a crocodile to help out (which I must tell you is fun to have as an animal companion ... great when sailors fall off ships near your croc companion ... ;-) )
I do think that once the choice is made, it should be a "death do you part" thing. I don't think the familiar should be "traded up" the way animal companions are. I've always seen the familar's bond as stronger than the animal companion's bond. If a wizard chooses to wait to gain a familiar until later in their career or if they have a familiar die (and lose the XP for it), they could pick up a familiar of (what would have been) improved ranking, but with chart progression a few levels behind a "normal animal" type familiar.
I agree with that. Whenever I "trade up" I flavor it so I dont loose my BFF Jub-jub, or what have you. lets say you trade out your seagull for a water mephit; it's still your seagull, you just infused elemental water power into it. Or your new Celestial Monitor Lizard is just you old lizard, but magicaly pumped up and infuzed with holyness.

Majuba |

The 'half hit points' thing has always been funny.
"Yeah, my 9th level Fighter / 1st level Sorcerer has a 1 HD familiar with 45 hit points..."
Familiars are considered to have HD equal to the master's *Character* level, not class level. (Would have a +9 base attack bonus too!)
To acquire your new familiar, you must wait a year and a day of in game time, regardless of whether your origional was killed or voluntarily dismissed.
That, I cry, is lame. Even Paladins don't get as screwed as that.
If the subject of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week's time.
Familiars do fine - a lot of weaknesses of them have been changed, or were myths to begin with. Kinda like the idea that Clerics and Druids have any significant loss in spells per day.

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If you are really worried about the familiar look into the [Think Tank] Familiar thread, there were two paths for familiars to take, one that basically turned them into a metamagic wand (which a lot of people didn't like because it made the familiar basically a class feature and did nothing to solve the "magically" appearing familiar made fun of in OotS) and one where it got dex and feats and a very minor damage boost as well as some synergy with wizard powers culminating at level 19 with sorcerer casting (i'll admit bias since I helped create it and will houserule it in after the playtest if it isn't added) It wasn't playtested in my game, but it didn't seem to overpower compared to the bonded item, which is still way more powerful.

Dennis da Ogre |

If you are really worried about the familiar look into the [Think Tank] Familiar thread, there were two paths for familiars to take, one that basically turned them into a metamagic wand (which a lot of people didn't like because it made the familiar basically a class feature and did nothing to solve the "magically" appearing familiar made fun of in OotS) and one where it got dex and feats and a very minor damage boost as well as some synergy with wizard powers culminating at level 19 with sorcerer casting (i'll admit bias since I helped create it and will houserule it in after the playtest if it isn't added) It wasn't playtested in my game, but it didn't seem to overpower compared to the bonded item, which is still way more powerful.
We'll see what happens to arcane bond with the beta. As written it's pretty nuts.

Kirth Gersen |

Yeah, I worked on the metamagic familiar. I don't like that the familiar is arguably the only class feature in the 3.5 game that has almost nothing at all to do with the class it's a feature of.
I mean, druids turn into animals, have a lot of animal spells, get an animal companion. Check.
Fighters get good BAB and lots of combat bonus feats (and, in the Alpha, outright combat bonuses). Check.
Barbarians get good BAB, rage, and DR to shrug off blows. Check.
Wizards get spells, magic item creation or metamagic feats, and... an animal that doesn't really have much to do with magic? All the other classes' features directly support their class' role(s), except the familiar.
Maybe it's the simulationist in me talking, but why would wizards ever even develop the ability to gain a familiar? It does nothing to aid their magic, and as far as it being a scout, wizards have better scouting ability with spells like prying eyes and clairvoyance. If the familar had some effect on spellcasting (boost concentration for master, like in Brust's "Taltos" books, or whatever), then it would be a far more logical class feature.

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Yeah, I worked on the metamagic familiar. I don't like that the familiar is arguably the only class feature in the 3.5 game that has almost nothing at all to do with the class it's a feature of.
I like how any Alternate Class Feature that replaces a Familiar is inherently better than the Familiar in the first place. :)
Book of Experimental Might had a pretty neat Familiar concept. The creature isn't a real animal, but a magical manifestation of the Wizard's spirit / power / whatever, and while it's manifested, he gets a bonus to his casting ability (which I forget, but it was pretty neat).

Me'mori |

Me'mori wrote:Because sometimes, just having a Tressym makes you the coolest guy around.What the $%?! is a "tressym"?
Winged Housecat, for ease of imagination. Int 12, too, though they don't speak (Nall, anyone?). The stat block appears in the Campaign Setting for Forgotten Realms, pg 309, while an image is on the following page.

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Kirth Gersen wrote:Winged Housecat, for ease of imagination. Int 12, too, though they don't speak (Nall, anyone?). The stat block appears in the Campaign Setting for Forgotten Realms, pg 309, while an image is on the following page.Me'mori wrote:Because sometimes, just having a Tressym makes you the coolest guy around.What the $%?! is a "tressym"?
Tressym existed long before 3e, though. I don't know if it was one of Ed Greenwood's crazy ideas done up for female friends of his (like Eilistraee) but they did exist in 2e Forgotten Realms.

Kirth Gersen |

Tressym existed long before 3e, though. I don't know if it was one of Ed Greenwood's crazy ideas done up for female friends of his (like Eilistraee) but they did exist in 2e Forgotten Realms.
Long before that as well; the character Jhary-a-Conel has a winged cat familiar in Michael Moorcock's The Vanishing Tower (1970) and The Chronicles of Corum (1971), although it's implied to be a nonesuch, not a member of a named species. Sounds like Ed liked the idea and swiped it. Thanks for the heads-up; I was never much into FR, personally.

achan_hiarusa |

achan_hiarusa wrote:Yes, my title was misleading, but I made what I said clear in the post. Improved Familiar is something that basically druids get for free with their animal companions. And familiars need something to compensate for the fact that they aren't combat effective, they can't even scout decently if they get caught.Well no, they don't need to be compensated. You are under the mistaken impression that a familiar is equivalent to an animal companion and it is not. They are not designed to be combatants, nor should they be upgraded to be combat effective without removing some other class features from the wizard.
The wizard is already one of the most powerful classes in the game. Wizards don't need free upgrades.
And the druid isn't?

Dennis da Ogre |

achan_hiarusa wrote:And the druid isn't?To bfair, in the Alpha, druids took a bug hit with the serious nerfing of wild shape and the reduced # of spells per day. Universalist wizards got a big boost with bonus SLAs and the choice of super-objects instead of familiars.
As far as I'm concerned bringing the Druid into the discussion is a distraction. The Druid also has a higher HD and BAB, just because a class feature is similar doesn't mean they should be identical or equivalent.