My player is trying to build a Paladin with Shield feats.
The shield-based Combat feats in the Alpha require Two Weapon Fighting, which has a hefty pre-req of Dex 15. In a standard point-buy setup, many of the heavy armor classes, which don't benefit overmuch from a high dex by design, will be denied access to these feats!
Plus, since the 3.5 SRD equivalent feats (improved shield bash) didn't have this requirement, this is a serious blow to shield-style non-Fighter's reverse compatibility.
In a purely fluff sense, fighting with a shield is NOT fighting with an offhand weapon. It's used in concert with the weapon to not only mitigate incoming attacks but allow things like trips and bull rushes— but not to the point of requiring a 15 dex just to pull it off!
In a game design sense, you've taken a perfectly legitimate alternative (Sword and Shield) to the clear optimal choice (Two-Weapon Fighting) and made it subordinate! Must all characters end up with Two Weapon Fighting to access feats appropriate to their combat style?
I know it's probably made it into the Beta, but please consider reverting this requirement to the 3.5 prerequisite (Shield Proficiency) so that Clerics and Paladins can use these feats without the high Dex entry fee.
EDIT: We set about making an entry-level shield feat that doesn't penalize low dex characters. In fact, it rewards them. This is what I'll be using:
Shield Training
Pre-requisite: Shield Proficiency
Once per round, you may apply your shield bonus to a single attack roll against an enemy who has attacked you and missed during the present round. This bonus may not apply to attacks of opportunity.
Improved Shield Training
Pre-requisite: Shield Proficiency, Shield Training, base attack bonus +4
As Shield Training, except you may apply this bonus to any attacks against any enemy who has attacked you and missed during the present round. This bonus may not apply to attacks of opportunity.
I made a topic about this a few days ago, it's still on the front page >.> no one has responded to it.
Well, at least there's two of us.
This is a serious issue! As it stands, 2WF and Power Attack are the only viable melee entry-level feats. There should be more options than this.
The feat I posted is probably not half as good as something Paizo could come up with, as far as entry-level shield feats that don't simply mimic 2-weapon fighting. Please, Paizo, do something! (of course, it's only been a few minutes, right?)
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There are two good options already out there (though I'd like to see a Pathfinder official one since my PFS char is a sword and shield cleric of Iomedae)
We have the Player's Handbook II by WotC feat Agile Shield Fighter which is TWF for shields (Full round attack, all attacks at -2)
And we have the cooler Everquest d20 RPG feat Bash which I believe would be OGL:
-2 to all attacks in the round, does damage like an off-hand attack and if used as a AoO to interrupt a spellcaster the caster's Channeling (Concentration) check against damage taken from a successful Bash attack has a +2 increase to the DC. Also if the shield is a +1 shield it counts as Magic for overcoming DR.
Personally I'd be cool with it being -2 as those feats have it, but what I think I'd really prefer is just one extra attack with the shield at -5 sort of like the Swinging Halberd Weapon Style feat, make Imp. Shield Bash a prereq obviously.
I guess I don't understand why all shield feats tend to involve (or start with) using the shield as a weapon.
It's not what they're for. I see the role that shield bashing plays, but is that the only thing that we can do with it?
I'm not suggesting the feat in my OP is perfect or should be included in Pathfinder, but it does a few things well:
These are the kinds of things I'd like to see in a Shield Training Feat chain. I'm not against shield bashing, and both the feats Coridan mentions sound like fair alternatives. I just don't think that should be the only function of Shield fighting, nor should it be the basic function of Shield fighting. I'd like to see a basic ability on par with Power Attack, Expertise, or Dodge to reflect how a character fights while using a shield, but not treating it as simply a weapon with an AC bonus.
(ps- the Shield Training feat in the OP should not allow Tower Shields)
You might want to check out this thread and this one as well. If the Powers That Be haven't heard our pleas, they aren't listening.
CJ
You might want to check out this thread and this one as well. If the Powers That Be haven't heard our pleas, they aren't listening.
CJ
Thanks! I'll be quiet now and play with my house rule until the Powers That Be fix the problem. ;)
There's a feat in the PHB 2 called Agile Shield Fighter. It's basically TWF with a shield with no dex prerequisite. Since Pathfinder is supposed to allow our other books its reasonable to assume it would qualify you for anything TWF does as long as you're using a shield.
There's a feat in the PHB 2 called Agile Shield Fighter. It's basically TWF with a shield with no dex prerequisite. Since Pathfinder is supposed to allow our other books its reasonable to assume it would qualify you for anything TWF does as long as you're using a shield.
Sigh.
Am I the only one who think shields deserve their own mechanic, besides just working as a weapon? Any takers?
If not, I guess Paizo can just leave things as they are.
I'm sorry but I am not quite sure what you are asking for on this thread.
Do you want a feat that works the same as Two Weapon Fighting but for shields or do you want something entirely different?
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The basic problem is TWF requires Dex 15, as do all the improvements to it. An average sword and board fighter doesn't focus on Dex all that much (the iconic Paladin in full plate with a longsword or bastard sword and heavy steel shield). Shield Bashing is cool (and not particularly powerful) but it's utterly pointless since you get -6/-10 and even if you want to JUST shield bash it's -4 because it's on your off hand.
I'm sorry but I am not quite sure what you are asking for on this thread.
Do you want a feat that works the same as Two Weapon Fighting but for shields or do you want something entirely different?
Both.
Requiring existing characters with shield feats to take 2WF (and dex 15 by extension) screws the main population of shield carrying characters: low dexers who need shields to compensate for no AC bonus from dex. That is the real issue.
As my pet issue: Shield bashing is neat and all, but I'm frankly bored by a mechanic that works exactly like 2WF. The Bashing feats should stay, I just think there's more to shields than just a weapon with an AC bonus. There could be many alluring feats there. Having a shield can, for example, improve your chances of hitting an opponent when their weapon is deflected, or let you bowl the opponent over or trip them up (the latter two being reflected by shield slam, but I don't feel an off-hand attack properly characterizes these function of a shield). I think it would be neat if the entry-level shield feat somehow made you better at fighting with a shield, short of granting more AC or extra attacks. This issue is not nearly as important as the first one, however.
I agree with both points made by toyrobots. There should be a feat chain for low dex sword and boarders. I also think that his idea of improving the main attack of the shield-wielding character instead of a shield bash is a fantastic idea. I would personally like to minimize extra attacks as much as possible because they extend combat at high levels so much. So, a good feat chain such as suggested that is a viable alternative to TWF would be a great addition to PFRPG. I can see several possible feats in this direction, some giving bonuses to hit, others to damage, others giving bonuses to combat maneuvers, others allowing extra 5 foot movements a la fourth edition, etc., etc. So, I second the multiple threads on this topic and call for revision and serious exploration of toyrobots' idea.
--Marnak
I agree with both points made by toyrobots... allowing extra 5 foot movements a la fourth edition, etc.
There is some serious hate for fourth edition around, but I think that Feats are an okay place to reabsorb some of the better concepts, since they are voluntary and relatively insular.
If the core shield mechanic were based around bonuses vs. enemies that miss you during the round (using power attack -> cleave as a model for feat chains) then one of the 4e Paladin mechanics could easily become a related feat:
Allied Interception
Pre-requisite: base attack bonus +1
When fighting alongside an ally, you can intercept attacks intended to hit them.
Any time an ally adjacent to you is attacked, you can choose to make a combat maneuver test against the attacking opponent. If you succeed, the opponent's attack roll applies to you rather than the original target. If you fail the combat maneuver test, the opponent may choose to attack you or the opponent.
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As you can see, this would give the Shielder all the more opportunities to soak up attacks with his big AC, and reap the benefit of whatever Shield mechanic is in place. I know this isn't the new rules forum, but here are the other two shield feats written up for my campaign:
Improved Shield Training
Pre-requisite: Shield Proficiency, Shield Training, base attack bonus +4
As Shield Training, except you may apply this bonus to any number attacks in a Full Attack action. You may declare multiple opponents as subject to separate attacks in a full-attack action, provided they attacked you and missed in the present round.
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Shield Training
Pre-requisite: Shield Proficiency
You are practiced at turning your opponent's deflected attacks of into openings for counterattack.
You may apply your shield bonus to a single attack roll as part of a standard attack or full attack action against an enemy who has attacked you and missed during the present round. Use of this ability is declared immediately after the enemy's failed attack roll. This bonus may not apply to attacks of opportunity. This feat may not be used with a tower shield.
Special: Shield training replaces Two-Weapon Fighting as a pre-requisite for any shield-based feat that does not deal damage from attacks made with a shield.
Now, I know I'm an arrogant sumbich, but I'm posting these rules mainly to illustrate that there are other potential mechanics besides 2 Weapon Fighting. If all feat chains just add off hand attacks, the different styles feel very unoriginal. I have nothing against shield bashing honestly, but I think shields without bashing should be cool too. Paizo could do a better job than I can in a heartbeat, and I hope they do for the final version. At the very least, drop the 2WF prereq!
*continues beating the poor, deceased horse*
Allied Interception
Pre-requisite: base attack bonus +1When fighting alongside an ally, you can intercept attacks intended to hit them.
Any time an ally adjacent to you is attacked, you can choose to make a combat maneuver test against the attacking opponent. If you succeed, the opponent's attack roll applies to you rather than the original target. If you fail the combat maneuver test, the opponent may choose to attack you or the opponent.
I would add Shield Training as a pre-requisite to this.
Improved Shield Training
Spoiler:
Pre-requisite: Shield Proficiency, Shield Training, base attack bonus +4As Shield Training, except you may apply this bonus to any number attacks in a Full Attack action. You may declare multiple opponents as subject to separate attacks in a full-attack action, provided they attacked you and missed in the present round.
Shield Training
Spoiler:
Pre-requisite: Shield ProficiencyYou are practiced at turning your opponent's deflected attacks of into openings for counterattack.
You may apply your shield bonus to a single attack roll as part of a standard attack or full attack action against an enemy who has attacked you and missed during the...
I really like these feats Toyrobots. I think adding these to the idea of reducing Shield armor penalty (Shield Focus} and increasing shield AC bonus (Shield Specialization) make the Sword & Board option much more viable.
I don't know that it should cost 2 feats to get a +1 bonus to shield AC though -- I recall from Kalamar that there was a single (closed source) feat that allowed the same. I think that bestowing a +1 AC bonus from shields should be the equivalent of Weapon Focus -- which requires but a single feat.
CJ
I would add Shield Training as a pre-requisite to this.Allied Interception
Pre-requisite: base attack bonus +1...
I dislike including pre-requisites unless it is a clear extension of the mechanic. I hate to see people saddled with a power they don't want to gain access to a power they do (e.g. mounted combat), and this feat could be useful to any high AC character, but it's especially useful with Shield Training.
I really like these feats Toyrobots.
Thanks!
I think adding these to the idea of reducing Shield armor penalty (Shield Focus} and increasing shield AC bonus (Shield Specialization) make the Sword & Board option much more viable.
What can I say but *gank* I'm stealing both, where are the write-ups?
Also, an extra +1 is worth a whole feat, if it increases the Shield Bonus for use with the other feats! Oh very much so.
I don't know if this is any help, but in a 3.5 game I am playing a ranger with two-weapon fighting as well as improved shield bash. He uses a +1 heavy steel spiked shield of bashing as his main weapon and a kukri as his secondary weapon. Improved shield bash allows him to keep the AC from the shield even while bashing with it.
He also has Shield Trip (or something like that) from CW(?) that allows him to make a free trip attack when he hits with the shield during a charge.
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Kalamar (at least in 3.0) provided exceptionally powerful feats and abilities, which led me to ban most of it as source material for my games.
To the main topic, I emphatically agree. There should be good feat options available to support sword-and-board without two-weapon style. Hopefully there will be several feats towards using a shield defensively (intuitive?).
I once again refer to one of my favorite prestige classes, the Devoted Defender (sword and fist) as a prestige class type I'd like to see more of.
I think adding these to the idea of reducing Shield armor penalty (Shield Focus) and increasing shield AC bonus (Shield Specialization) make the Sword & Board option much more viable.
What can I say but *gank* I'm stealing both, where are the write-ups?
Also, an extra +1 is worth a whole feat, if it increases the Shield Bonus for use with the other feats! Oh very much so.
I have seen versions of both of these in Plots & Poison and in the Complete NetBook of Feats. I would probably alter them somewhat.
Shield Focus
Pre-Requisites: Shield Proficiency, +1 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +1.
Greater Shield Focus
Pre-Requisites: Shield Focus, +4 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +2.
Shield Mastery
Pre-requisites: Shield Proficiency
When using a shield, the armor penalty of the shield is reduced by one (minimum of 0).
Something like that.
CJ
Shield Focus
Pre-Requisites: Shield Proficiency, +1 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +1.Shield Specialization
Pre-Requisites: Shield Focus, +4 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +2.Shield Mastery
Pre-requisites: Shield Proficiency
When using a shield, the armor penalty of the shield is reduced by one (minimum of 0).
Awesome, thanks!
Shield Mastery seems like it could use a boost to be worth it. The other two look good, although I would adopt "Greater Shield Focus" as the name instead of "Shield Specialization." Thanks again!
EDIT: Did you mean to specify that Shield Focus only worked when using the "Fighting Defensively" combat option? Or were you simply trying to exclude it's use in bashing? If the latter, we should simply define it as a Shield bonus, so that the only attacks it goes to are Shield Training attacks. If the former, I think the feat might be underpowered.
Shield Mastery seems like it could use a boost to be worth it. The other two look good, although I would adopt "Greater Shield Focus" as the name instead of "Shield Specialization." Thanks again!
Changed to suit you sir.
Yeah, shield mastery needs more juice. I like the idea of reducing AP. Maybe include reduction in AP by 1 with Greater Shield Focus.
CJ
Yeah, shield mastery needs more juice. I like the idea of reducing AP. Maybe include reduction in AP by 1 with Greater Shield Focus.
First instinct is to make Shield Focus: +1 Shield -1 ACP, and Greater Shield Focus: +2 Shield, -2 AP. Overpowered though this seems, if it's on-par with a two-feat-chain for 2WF, we're hitting the mark.
It's worthwhile to compare it with Dodge, acknowledging that Dodge Bonuses are generally more desirable. Also, the character with the feats in question is limited to shield use— this means they can lose it if sundered or disarmed (can't lose dodge that way). Definitely matters if your group allows shield bonuses when flat-footed.
At any rate, do you all think that's overdoing it?
Also, has anyone thought about the effect of Shield Training's "Shield Bonus to strike roll" as it applies to Two-Weapon Defense? :)
Shield Focus
Pre-Requisites: Shield Proficiency, +1 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +1.Greater Shield Focus
Pre-Requisites: Shield Focus, +4 BAB
When using a shield defensively, the wielder increases the shield AC bonus by +2.Shield Mastery
Pre-requisites: Shield Proficiency
When using a shield, the armor penalty of the shield is reduced by one (minimum of 0)...
These are definatly a way to fix that.
I also agree that Two weapon Fighting should not be linked to a shield unless that shield does have a normal attack like a klar or a few in the complete adventurer. Then I understand the need for TWF.
I also like the idea of getting a bonus to attack because you blocked an attack with the shield but not really an extra attack instead. I may work on a feat for that at a later time.
Yeah, shield mastery needs more juice. I like the idea of reducing AP. Maybe include reduction in AP by 1 with Greater Shield Focus.First instinct is to make Shield Focus: +1 Shield -1 ACP, and Greater Shield Focus: +2 Shield, -2 AP. Overpowered though this seems, if it's on-par with a two-feat-chain for 2WF, we're hitting the mark.
<snip>
At any rate, do you all think that's overdoing it?
Yeah, my first thought is that this might be over-doing it. But it is sort on par with TWF. I'd have to think about this some more.
Also, has anyone thought about the effect of Shield Training's "Shield Bonus to strike roll"...
I got to thinking about this. It seemed interesting, but I'm not sure it actually works. You get a higher AC bonus with larger shields. But larger shields actually make it harder to counter-attack not easier. A lighter shield or buckler has more of a chance of knocking an opponent's weapon out of line and providing a better chance of hitting with a counter-attack.
It might make more sense to apply Shield Training only to bucklers and light shields.
CJ
Take it all the way and your shield is a weapon that gives it's plusses to AC, Attack, and Damage and with no penalties on either primary or the secondary attack.
I would refute this.
A. A shield is a pretty crappy weapon all things considered. It has null armor penetration. It has no finesse, and at best in a real fight trying to bash an opponent with your shield is pretty easy to counter (closed ranks shield-to-shield line fighting is a little different).
B. The primary role of a shield is defense. It is intended to get in the way and deflect in-coming attacks. It is active (mobile) defense that allows you to react to the tactics your opponent is using (rather than passive defense like armor).
I won't argue that a feat-chain for using shield bash should be an option. But there also needs to be a feat-chain/path that treats shields as defensive items.
CJ