But Pathfinder products on the shelves now are 3.5 and will remain so for a year. My FLGS here in NYC says that his D&D customer base has divided with some going 4e and some staying 3.5.
With a Paizo imprint on Necromancer products, couldn't said books appear in the same channels Paizo is reaching now? Or am I misunderstanding the situation?
I think you are correct. My local store recently expanded their shelf space for Pathfinder 3.5E material, giving them dedicated shelving. This is because the products have been selling well since the launch of 4E, according to the store owner. The idea that there is no support for 3.5 or that stores won't carry the material is erroneous.
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I think you are correct. My local store recently expanded their shelf space for Pathfinder 3.5E material, giving them dedicated shelving. This is because the products have been selling well since the launch of 4E, according to the store owner. The idea that there is no support for 3.5 or that stores won't carry the material is erroneous.
Depending on the store, location, how informed the owner is..
When I was in NY.. I would have no problems getting any RPG i wanted, When I was on the Pan Handle of Florida.. RPG books were limited to big names, anything else i needed to order.
Depending on the store, location, how informed the owner is..
When I was in NY.. I would have no problems getting any RPG i wanted, When I was on the Pan Handle of Florida.. RPG books were limited to big names, anything else i needed to order.
This is a relatively medium-sized store in a town of around 100,000 in the Midwest. I don't know how representative it is, but it's certainly not a large store in a large city.
I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.
This isn't true at all. WotC and Paizo both want to do business with him. He would prefer to publish for the current version of D&D but isn't willing to under the terms they currently offer. Should they agree to alter those terms then he will publish D&D stuff.
He can't publish for Pathfinder right now because there is no Pathfinder RPG to publish for. There is no Pathfinder RPG to publish for so he's not publishing for Paizo right now either. So he waits. He can afford to so and it's really the best possible choice for him right now.
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I was willing to respect Clark's opinions on Wizards and 4e up until now. The company that he wants to do business doesn't want his business, yet he's not willing to throw in with the company that actually does want to do business with him.This isn't true at all. WotC and Paizo both want to do business with him. He would prefer to publish for the current version of D&D but isn't willing to under the terms they currently offer. Should they agree to alter those terms then he will publish D&D stuff.
He can't publish for Pathfinder right now because there is no Pathfinder RPG to publish for. There is no Pathfinder RPG to publish for so he's not publishing for Paizo right now either. So he waits. He can afford to so and it's really the best possible choice for him right now.
Hah, if he makes nothing I am sure he has proven there is no market for new third edition products. I have to go to eBay to buy his Tome of Horrors books because he thinks I don't want to buy any.
Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck are wondering where Goofy went.
Cheers,
Zux
Hopefully, this will mean more support for the Pathfinder RPG. I feel sorry that 4e has taken the direction it has taken, but luckily, there is an alternative for us.
if you couldn't see a more restrictive, exclusive licence coming then... well, you were just not really paying attention I think).
Nobody, including the folks appointed to interface with the public at WotC over OGL issues, anticipated the degree of restriction of the GSL. Clark Peterson was one of the architects of the original OGL (without which we wouldn't have Pathfinder by the way). He relied upon his long-term relationship with Wizards and some fine people. People who had the rug pulled out from under them by faceless corporate masters who have a different business approach.
There is a whole crowd out there who were hungry for new Necromancer Games products and sourcebooks. Ain't happening right away, if at all. Yeah, Clark may have been a little too optomistic after some of the developments, but I admire him for it all the same. He trusted people - a hard quality to find in business today. Shame on us in the business world for destroying trust and relationships so regularly the way we do.
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if you couldn't see a more restrictive, exclusive licence coming then... well, you were just not really paying attention I think).
Nobody, including the folks appointed to interface with the public at WotC over OGL issues, anticipated the degree of restriction of the GSL. Clark Peterson was one of the architects of the original OGL (without which we wouldn't have Pathfinder by the way). He relied upon his long-term relationship with Wizards and some fine people. People who had the rug pulled out from under them by faceless corporate masters who have a different business approach.
There is a whole crowd out there who were hungry for new Necromancer Games products and sourcebooks. Ain't happening right away, if at all. Yeah, Clark may have been a little too optomistic after some of the developments, but I admire him for it all the same. He trusted people - a hard quality to find in business today. Shame on us in the business world for destroying trust and relationships so regularly the way we do.
As much as I despise Hasbro as a company (gimme back my Scrabulous!), I am hesitant to blame them for all the stuff going on at WotC. Even staffers have complained, over the years, about how the OGL has been applied (for my part I think it's great, and the original writers really managed to sneak something through the corporate censors - good work!). It's obviously a great thing for the industry and for the customers... but how did it really work for WotC? I'm sure it spurred their own sales of the core books, but once people got into M&M, T20, etc, or core D&D non-WotC campaign settings, how much more did they sell? The sheer arrogance displayed by them as a company in how they've handled the switch to 4e doesn't endear WotC to me much at all, either. Their "the customers will go where we go, even if we don't give a rat's ass about their wishes for how things should work and we destroy campaign settings that have existed for over 20 years" attitude has, and will continue to, bit(e) them in the rear.
Let's try to make sure we don't give the people who are actually responsible an easy out by blaming this all on Hasbro. I'd be really interested to know exactly where the GSL came from, and who authored it, and who set out the parameters before it got translated into legalese... but until that time, it still has the WotC stamp on it, and I'm not giving them the free ride of blaming that on someone else.
Also, to say that nobody anticipated the restrictions in the GSL is just false. Heck, read ENWorld, or this forum, or even the WotC messageboards and you'll see that almost nothing was a surprise - other than the fact they did *all* of the bad things that were predicted instead of just picking out a few. Look at the comments from WotC over the past 4 or 5 years about the OGL, and you'll find few that would indicate the company thought it was a great idea.
Perhaps Clark was too close to the folks at WotC who, based on the prospect of keeping or losing their jobs, were not able to tell him of the coming GSL (and the details of it probably weren't actually known until the very end, anyway, but I would be willing to bet good money that they knew it would be more restrictive, and more than just "you can't cut/paste" too).
Anyway... my point is, I guess, make sure the responsibility is shouldered by those who actually are responsible for things. Clark made a decision, based on loyalty or friendship, that affects his business. That's never a good idea. He also based it on absolutely no information and flying in the face of a respectable amount of speculation that what he wanted would be impossible anyway. While I'm sure he's annoyed about having to backtrack, I would bet that he's annoyed both at WotC *and* himself for making such a hasty decision that has affected his business (which, even though it's not his primary source of income, is important to him on a non-monetary level or he wouldn't have bothered with doing it).
As for the GSL, I lay that at WotC's doorstep until there is clear indication otherwise.
What really sucks for Clark is that he's out the $$ for teh 3.5 product he has but can't move (Slumbering Tsar pt 1, among others) and the 4/x product he was/is working on but now can't dare go forward. (ToH 4.x, Advanced player guide). Necromancer isn't his day job, but this would kill most publishers, and, marketwise, he's been off the radar for a year.But you know who's to blame for that? Clark. Not WotC. All he had to do was look around at some of the criticism and "worst-case-scenarios" to realize that it wasn't all going to be sunshine and lollipops with 4e.
IMO, Clark was to close to WotC. He was calling 4E "open" months after WotC stopped. He worked out seperate licenses with them in the past and assumed that he could do the same again. In short, he put more faith in those he had contact with then in those that sign their pay checks.
And just like JMS recently announced there would be no more Babylon 5 stuff (which I am extremely sad about) and that he's moving on with his life, Clark will eventually realize that Wizards will not bend to help 3rd party companies and will eventually move on.
And when Wizards changes the GSL to be cripple or completely dimolish one of their major licencees (I'm guessing Mongoose) 3rd party companies will do whatever it takes to get out of the GSL. And then 5E will have no license at all. I'm sure at a certain level Clark knows this is coming, even if he will not admit it to himself yet.
(Reasons I am guessing Mongoose: They're in england so making them have a presense in Washington State will hurt them more then Goodman. They have OGL games and Traveller is popular, therefore they're taking people away from D&D. Plus, Mongoose makes and has made products that "threaten" Wizards the most [pocket players guide, Wraith whatever isn't a settingless adventure, etc])
Chief Technical Officer
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Keep in mind that our other August 2009 releases will use the Pathfinder RPG rules, so that means that the rules actually have to be finalized well before the "ship to printer" date. We don't have a precise timeline yet, but we do intend to make the finished rules available to other publishers in a timeframe that will allow at least some of them to get compatible products to Gen Con '09.Since GenCon items have to be to the publisher in June, I'd assume the RPG rules need to be finalized in March or so.
Also, how does one qualify as one of these 'other publishers'?
We haven't determined that yet—we still have several months to make that decsion. We certainly don't want to allow anybody to just *claim* to be a publisher so that they can have early access, so it'll probably be a "if we, in our sole discretion, decide you're a qualified publisher" kind of thing. (If our distributors carry your products—or, for PDF-only publishers, if you have a reasonable number of products for sale through major online venues—that'll likely be sufficient.)
...Clark will eventually realize that Wizards will not bend to help 3rd party companies and will eventually move on.
And when Wizards changes the GSL to be cripple or completely dimolish one of their major licencees (I'm guessing Mongoose) 3rd party companies will do whatever it takes to get out of the GSL. And then 5E will have no license at all. I'm sure at a certain level Clark knows this is coming, even if he will not admit it to himself yet.
Clark has the luxury of being able to wait. A company like Paizo could not say "We're taking the next year off from producing products to wait and see what WotC does. Clark may very well convince the Wizards to change the GSL to be more 3PP friendly, he has the connections, if anyone can do it he can.
That's the beauty of being in his shoes, he has a good reputation in the gaming community, he has the financial situation where he can sit out this inning. Other companies don't have that option and were forced to make a choice.
Clark is being very careful about the way he words his communications. He wants to make it very clear to WotC that he wants to work with them but also make it very clear he's not going to unless he gets better terms.
I don't pretend to have a crystal ball, so I'm not going to make any predictions. A year is a long time, we'll see what the situation looks next August.
Clark may very well convince the Wizards to change the GSL to be more 3PP friendly, he has the connections, if anyone can do it he can.
Forgive me for being blunt, but Clark's efforts and connections have been fruitless thus far. He hasn't been able to convince Wizards to change the GSL since its launch and he hasn't succeeded in securing a seperate license to anything. Sorry but I have yet to see any signal from Wizards that they will even consider making the environment more 3PP friendly. I hold out 0 hope that it will ever happen. Wizards today is not the same Wizards that created the OGL. And frankly I don't see any reason to expect them to return to that way any time soon.
Forgive me for being blunt, but Clark's efforts and connections have been fruitless thus far. He hasn't been able to convince Wizards to change the GSL since its launch and he hasn't succeeded in securing a seperate license to anything. Sorry but I have yet to see any signal from Wizards that they will even consider making the environment more 3PP friendly. I hold out 0 hope that it will ever happen. Wizards today is not the same Wizards that created the OGL. And frankly I don't see any reason to expect them to return to that way any time soon.
I understand you feel this way. To be honest it is the most likely outcome. I don't know the people at WotC so it's hard for me to say. Can you honestly say that you know the people involved?
A lot of this probably depends on how 4e and the 4e supplements are received. If 4e starts gaining some momentum and really starts to take off then it's unlikely there will be any changes. If adaption is slow going then WotC will be more likely to work on fostering good will in the community to woo some more people into the fold.
I see your perspective and it's the most likely outcome but my crystal is on the fritz, and strange things have definitely happened.
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Wizards of the Coast's corporate lawyers will be able to point to companies like Mongoose & Goodman Games signing up to the GSL (if I understand correctly), and say to Clark: 'We're not giving them special terms, so why should we do so to you?'
Never having been a Necromancer customer, I am unclear on whether or not the quality of Necromancer products is such that Wizards of the Coast's lawyers ought to be thinking about going out of their way to get Clark on board with the 4E project. Sadly (for Clark and 4E) I do not get the impression that any favourable (to Clark) GSL revision or private license arrangement is likely to be forthcoming within the next couple of years.
This may or may not be good news for Paizo & Pathfinder RPG.
The question is, do you have some source for this idea or is it just a pet theory? Im guessing it's you don't know any more than the rest of us.
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if you couldn't see a more restrictive, exclusive licence coming then... well, you were just not really paying attention I think).Nobody, including the folks appointed to interface with the public at WotC over OGL issues, anticipated the degree of restriction of the GSL. Clark Peterson was one of the architects of the original OGL (without which we wouldn't have Pathfinder by the way). He relied upon his long-term relationship with Wizards and some fine people. People who had the rug pulled out from under them by faceless corporate masters who have a different business approach.
There is a whole crowd out there who were hungry for new Necromancer Games products and sourcebooks. Ain't happening right away, if at all. Yeah, Clark may have been a little too optomistic after some of the developments, but I admire him for it all the same. He trusted people - a hard quality to find in business today. Shame on us in the business world for destroying trust and relationships so regularly the way we do.
I'm with hmarcbower on this one. WotC has repeatedly said that Hasbro is taking a 'hands-off' approach to everything that they're doing. WotC has repeatedly claimed ownership of all the decisions that have come down the pike.
Sure, I could see Hasbro being involved, but I'm going to lay this one at the feet of WotC. The GSL is something that they certainly had an impact on. I know that they've lost a lot of good people, and it saddens me. But, they made their decision. I don't really care what they do from here on out. I've switched to Paizo, and I won't be switching back to WotC, even if Pathfinder doesn't work out for me. But I have at least a full year of enjoying the Playtest and working with they system before I even have to deeal with that prospect.
I understand what WotC thinks the mistakes with the OGL were. And they may be right about making it too open. But the steaming pile of crap that they're offering in its place is absolutely ridiculous. I don't expect them to change it for Necromancer, or anyone else, because I really think that they don't want support from 3rd party publishers. They're willing to go it alone because they know they're the biggest of the game publishers, and they have a pretty good shop of doing fine even if every other game publisher goes out of business. On some level, if they were the only game in town, they see themselves as getting all the gaming dollars that go to someone else now.
So, for the GSL I blame WotC. For all the recent changes I dislike, I blame WotC. For the fact that some of them knew that they were lying to me, I blame WotC. For the long delay of the GSL, I blame WotC.
Again, I don't really care what they do, anymore. I'm actually pretty happy with the state of the gaming industry right now. And if Necromancer goes Pathfinder and not 4th edition, well, I have no problem with that. I have every module they published, and some of their big items. The Tome of Horrors (I & III but not II for some reason) and the City of Brass boxed set. So, I think I count as one of their customers, and I will quite likely continue to support them if they're making products compatible with the game I play.
And there is the option to publish for 4th edition without the benefit of the license. Sure, there may be a lawusit, but apparently that option is much more possible than I would have believed.
Forgive me for being blunt, but Clark's efforts and connections have been fruitless thus far. He hasn't been able to convince Wizards to change the GSL since its launch and he hasn't succeeded in securing a seperate license to anything. Sorry but I have yet to see any signal from Wizards that they will even consider making the environment more 3PP friendly. I hold out 0 hope that it will ever happen. Wizards today is not the same Wizards that created the OGL. And frankly I don't see any reason to expect them to return to that way any time soon.I understand you feel this way. To be honest it is the most likely outcome. I don't know the people at WotC so it's hard for me to say. Can you honestly say that you know the people involved?
I don't know the people personally. What I do know is actions. And actions speak louder then words (and apparently relationships).
Their words said that 4E was a long way off. Their actions showed they were developing it while they made those claims. Their words said they would release the rules to 3PPs shortly after the announcement. Their actions didn't follow through. Their words said they would not have a two tiered system for 3PP product release. Then they took actions to held a phone confrence with 3PPs where they said they would have a two tiered system. Next action: they never got to releasing the license when they said they would in their phone call. They said it would be OGL. Their actions did not follow through. Then they said 3PPs would have the GSL/SRD once 4E launched. Action: it was delayed (not long, but long enough for players to form a first impression based on what they saw rather then what 3PPs did).
So while I don't know anyone at Wizards personally, I know what Clark and just about every person at Paizo that once worked for Wizards vouches for Scott Rouse and Lidda as being pro-Open Gaming. So I believe them. But I weight that against Wizards' actions. The only logical way to resolve those is: Scott and Lidda are not the ones calling the shots. If that's true today, then what hope is there for tomorrow? Sorry, but I don't see any.
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Their words said that 4E was a long way off. Their actions showed they were developing it while they made those claims. Their words said they would release the rules to 3PPs shortly after the announcement. Their actions didn't follow through. Their words said they would not have a two tiered system for 3PP product release. Then they took actions to held a phone confrence with 3PPs where they said they would have a two tiered system. Next action: they never got to releasing the license when they said they would in their phone call. They said it would be OGL. Their actions did not follow through. Then they said 3PPs would have the GSL/SRD once 4E launched. Action: it was delayed (not long, but long enough for players to form a first impression based on what they saw rather then what 3PPs did).
I agree with you DMcCoy1693. That is a hard one for some people to comprehend. Words versus actions. Any person that has any common sense should look at what a person does, not what they say they will do. That is the real funny thing about NDA's and companies. Employees hide behind NDA's like they are legitimate shields to protect their integrity and character, while a company goes about lying through their teeth as the employees nod their heads in NDA complicity like they were only doing what they were told. It is a corporate structure that adds up to a pile of dung. Wizards is filled with this double speak and half revealing falsehoods that is all too true for just about any major corporate entity. It really amazes me how much this company broke in order to create 4th Edition. I really think it was the egg before the chicken that brought this company to kill 3.5 Edition. Well, they got their egg back, but they broke a whole lot of them to get it.
Cheers,
Zuxius
So while I don't know anyone at Wizards personally, I know what Clark and just about every person at Paizo that once worked for Wizards vouches for Scott Rouse and Lidda as being pro-Open Gaming. So I believe them. But I weight that against Wizards' actions. The...
I agree with everything you say. I just think there is a possibility that there is potential for a shift in policy based on the reception the 4th edition and specifically the GSL has gotten. Particularly in light of the fact that there are people receptive to open gaming in Wizards.
I just think there is a possibility that there is potential for a shift in policy based on the reception the 4th edition and specifically the GSL has gotten. Particularly in light of the fact that there are people receptive to open gaming in Wizards.
Agree to disagree. I just don't see that happening. While I do acknowledge that it is possible, I do not believe that it is even remotely probable.
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Good and Bad news really, depending on your point of view. By attempting to kill the D20/OGL markent Wizards has, in effect nuked the industry. Non-D20 games will have a boom time of it as masses leave the editon wars to die hards on both sides.
Back in high school, I had this crazy older friend I gamed with, Tristan. Tristan was always talking about how what the world really needed was a good nuclear holocaust. One day I was like "Then everything would be dead barren rock, and I really don't see how that's an improvement over the status quo."
Well, I should have known better, because Tristan was a really smart guy, and in the next few weeks he buried me under literature that proved pretty conclusively that a nuclear Armageddon sufficient to wipe out all human life would not only not kill all life, but would lead to an amazing period of regrowth. Most striking to me, a very visual person, were the photos of Nagasaki and Hiroshima taken a week after the atomic bombs were dropped, that showed rampant plant growth everywhere.
I mention all of this, because I agree that WOTC tried to nuke the playground. I just don't think it will work out the way they intended. I think all they've really done is removed the most annoying part of the OGL D20 system: WOTC's participation in it.
Agree to disagree. I just don't see that happening. While I do acknowledge that it is possible, I do not believe that it is even remotely probable.
Well I'm certainly not putting any money on them changing their policy, anyone who's bet on Wizards being magnanimous so far has lost every time :)
Agree to disagree. I just don't see that happening. While I do acknowledge that it is possible, I do not believe that it is even remotely probable.Well I'm certainly not putting any money on them changing their policy, anyone who's bet on Wizards being magnanimous so far has lost every time :)
Actually, I doubt that it is Wizards being the problem. It is either
- Habro's legal group not understanding the dynamics of P&P RPG game publishing (the most likely in my opinion)
- Hasbro being too agressive in protecting its IP (also possible, see above)
- Hasbro wanting to shut out third party publishers (unlikely, but possible).
If anyone is the problem in this situation it is Hasbro, but even there, it may not be intentional on their part.
Another poster on these boards linked to an 'Ogre Cave' podcast *link* where some of the people from Goodman Games (unless the podcast is a clever fake or spoof) talk (amongst other things) about their 4E plans, including signing upto the GSL, and since the podcast is dated 24th July (2008), then (if that date is correct, too), I can only presume that they are fully conversant with the GSL. I think that Mongoose may have been mentioned as signing upto the GSL on other forums, although that could be just rumour-mongering, and I may be on shakier ground in my information that Mongoose are going to sign the GSL.
Nope. Mongoose and Goodman both signed the GSL. You are indeed correct.
If you like, fell free to convince me that Clark is in fact an ultra-modern powerful tug-boat, able to throw several lines and drag Wizards of the Coast around, but I'm not seeing that myself at present.
Perhaps I said that wrong. I was genuinely curious if you had an inside line. I have my opinions formed based on observation of events, so do you. Sitting here debating it is unlikely to change either of our perspectives.
I generally agree with you and DMMcoy that things will not change but I have a little optimistic streak. As DMMcoy said, agree to disagree.
Another poster on these boards linked to an 'Ogre Cave' podcast *link* where some of the people from Goodman Games (unless the podcast is a clever fake or spoof) talk (amongst other things) about their 4E plans, including signing upto the GSL, and since the podcast is dated 24th July (2008), then (if that date is correct, too), I can only presume that they are fully conversant with the GSL. I think that Mongoose may have been mentioned as signing upto the GSL on other forums, although that could be just rumour-mongering, and I may be on shakier ground in my information that Mongoose are going to sign the GSL.Nope. Mongoose and Goodman both signed the GSL. You are indeed correct.(edited- confound those time zones)
Thank-you; Whilst I was fairly certain about Goodman, having listened to that podcast within the past 24 hours, I wasn't too clear where I had picked up the specific idea regarding Mongoose, so couldn't go back to check.
Upon reflection, I probably should have gone to check on Mongoose's website... :D
Darn. That means that the OGL Conan will not be arround for much longer. :(
This might also doom a 4e Scarred Lands setting from Firey Dragon...
Whu- what? Was this ever up for discussion, or just wishful thinking?
I'm a massive Scarred Lands fan, so any new books would be most welcome.
Darn. That means that the OGL Conan will not be arround for much longer. :(
If they have an ounce of sense, Mongoose will take Conan to Runequest and forego making some kind of 4th edition GSL Conan supplement (am I right in thinking a fully fledged Conan Rulebook is out of the question under the GSL?). Their handling of such a project on their Slaine RPG was pretty great.
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Darn. That means that the OGL Conan will not be arround for much longer. :(
Noooooooooo! My precious carousing!
Didn't they just recently release a new edition?
Darn. That means that the OGL Conan will not be arround for much longer. :(
(At current) not true. As long as a particular product line is GSL, the rest of the product line must be GSL. All other product lines do not need to be GSL. They can be OGL. Granted that may change tomorrow.
I don't know if threat is the right word - Clark's attitude seems to sound more like a plead than a threat. "Don't make me go Pf only, please!" rather than "Change the GSL or else!"
Why does "crap or get off the pot" come to mind??
Or, in the words of Cartman, "Quit your b$%^&in'!"
He's a big boy; might be time to make "big boy" decisions. Others have.
I don't know if threat is the right word - Clark's attitude seems to sound more like a plead than a threat. "Don't make me go Pf only, please!" rather than "Change the GSL or else!"Why does "crap or get off the pot" come to mind??
Or, in the words of Cartman, "Quit your b$%^&in'!"
He's a big boy; might be time to make "big boy" decisions. Others have.
And what would that decision be?
Yes, he would like to support D&D, and is trying to persuade Hasbro/WoTC to change their GSL to make it less dangerous to be a 3PP.
Sounds like he is making a "big boy" decision, namely to wait for the PathfinderRPG and then support that line.
I don't know if threat is the right word - Clark's attitude seems to sound more like a plead than a threat. "Don't make me go Pf only, please!" rather than "Change the GSL or else!"Why does "crap or get off the pot" come to mind??
Or, in the words of Cartman, "Quit your b$%^&in'!"
He's a big boy; might be time to make "big boy" decisions. Others have.
He's made his decision, he's not publishing under the GSL. In the unlikely event that WotC changes the GSL he will publish for 4e.
Other companies don't have the luxury of saying "We're going to hold off on publishing anything until August 2009", he does. If Wizards changes their license before then then he has options.
He's made a very shrewd decision which gives him the option to play with either 'team', or potentially both.
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Corporations of the scale of Wizards of the Coast are less maneuverable than large oil tankers. Once they get up speed in a certain direction, inertia sets in and any kind of change in direction (or in the case of a company, of corporate policy) without strong outside influences takes a while to set in*.
If you like, fell free to convince me that Clark is in fact an ultra-modern powerful tug-boat, able to throw several lines and drag Wizards of the Coast around, but I'm not seeing that myself at present.
well i am just hopping for the either the Typhon Market or the Low Sales Iceberg sinks the so called Oil Tanker :P
well me and a friend read Clark's post and we belive he did take a courageous position (ok he can afford it), he doesn't want to have anything to do with the actual GSL, he offers to work with WotC, surely he KNOWS how unlikely is to have any chnage, because you don't go b!%@@ing about the poeple you could work with in the future. While he sees WotC reactions he bids his time for Pathfinder to be ready to launch, before that its no use for him as a company to publish anything.
hey thats courage, he has decided to withhold any more products for the benefit of his comany, which is reasonable, as many have said, he migh not need it, but he loves it, you don't want to see that which you love hurt needlesly, not if you can take another approach, he does. And i do admire him for that, where others have bend the kneel he stands proud and says NO
whether is a plead for reason or a threat or even advice that that is NOT WotC smartest move... is up to him.
He's made a very shrewd decision which gives him the option to play with either 'team', or potentially both.
Not to belabor the point, but I disagree with the "shrewd" adjective.
Quote: "It has been about a year now that we havent put out a product."
He has decided not to support 3.5.
He has decided not to support 4.0 for the time being.
He has no choice but to wait for PF, which is a year off.
So, will it be 2 years before any new product is out?
I'm just sayin'...
He's made a very shrewd decision which gives him the option to play with either 'team', or potentially both.
Not to belabor the point, but I disagree with the "shrewd" adjective.
Quote: "It has been about a year now that we havent put out a product."
He has decided not to support 3.5.
He has decided not to support 4.0 for the time being.
He has no choice but to wait for PF, which is a year off.
So, will it be 2 years before any new product is out?
I'm just sayin'...
Well, not quite two years. He can likely start developing with the PathfinderRPG well before that. :)
Well, not quite two years. He can likely start developing with the PathfinderRPG well before that. :)
Now THAT is something to look forward to!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This might also doom a 4e Scarred Lands setting from Firey Dragon...Whu- what? Was this ever up for discussion, or just wishful thinking?
I'm a massive Scarred Lands fan, so any new books would be most welcome.
Wow, I found the other one :P
I remembered reading somewhere (EnWorld?) That Fiery Dragon would be making 4.x Scarred lands conversions.
If I understand Clark's fears about Judges Guild and Necromancer here's how it goes.
I'd expressed fears that because there was a DCC that referenced Freeport that Goodman Games signing on to the GSL might allow enthusiastic lawyers to go after True 20. For that reason, Clark may be warry of entangling Pazio, JG, etc. in the GSL by accident.
Likewise, Fiery Dragon's making of Scarred Lands 4.x might rebound on White Wolf.
Paranoid theorizing on my part? Maybe.
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This might also doom a 4e Scarred Lands setting from Firey Dragon...Whu- what? Was this ever up for discussion, or just wishful thinking?
I'm a massive Scarred Lands fan, so any new books would be most welcome.Wow, I found the other one :P
I remembered reading somewhere (EnWorld?) That Fiery Dragon would be making 4.x Scarred lands conversions.
If I understand Clark's fears about Judges Guild and Necromancer here's how it goes.
Clark makes Complete Fuzzy Wuzzies under Necromancer for 4.x
GSL modified to say you can't make OGL and GSL product period.
Necromancer publishes for Judges Guild, 3.5 Sewer level of the Invincible Overlord.
WotC goes after Judges Guild, saying that Necro's publishing of Judges Guild is a defacto violation of the (modified) GSL. I'd expressed fears that because there was a DCC that referenced Freeport that Goodman Games signing on to the GSL might allow enthusiastic lawyers to go after True 20. For that reason, Clark may be warry of entangling Pazio, JG, etc. in the GSL by accident.
Likewise, Fiery Dragon's making of Scarred Lands 4.x might rebound on White Wolf.
Paranoid theorizing on my part? Maybe.
And given that Clark is a prosecuting attorney in Vegas for his day job (IIRC), he probably has an idea of what degree of over-enthusiasm some lawyers might stoop to.
Well, not quite two years. He can likely start developing with the PathfinderRPG well before that. :)So, will it be 2 years before any new product is out?
I'm just sayin'...
Well he is going to have to wait until Gen Con next year before he can release any new PfRPG product, so if he goes that way, he will have to wait two years before the product is "out". Though of course he should start working on it before then if Paizo gives him the final rule set, assuming he goes with that option.
He's made a very shrewd decision which gives him the option to play with either 'team', or potentially both.
Not to belabor the point, but I disagree with the "shrewd" adjective.
Quote: "It has been about a year now that we havent put out a product."
He has decided not to support 3.5.
He has decided not to support 4.0 for the time being.
He has no choice but to wait for PF, which is a year off.
So, will it be 2 years before any new product is out?
I'm just sayin'...
He's also said that the 3.5 market is pretty much dried up right now. I'm not sure how true that is but he is the one selling into that channel. From his POV he see's a fork in the D&D path, the left fork is 4e, the right fork Paizo, the middle fork is 3.5. The left fork he has to sign the GSL and all that entails, the right fork he has to sit out of the market for a year to participate in. The middle fork is clearly a dead end and any products he product had best pay off in the next 6 months or they are obsolete.
You are under the mistaken assumption that he needs revenue from the gaming company to pay his rent.
Clark wants to make product for 4e, he also wants to work with Paizo. He has no interest in the 3.5 market. Sitting things out right now is about the only thing he can do.
What would you suggest he do? Spend 3 months making gaming products which will be obsolete in 9 months? Develop product for 4e and bypass the GSL? He could do that but it will potentially upset the people he's trying to do business with. Release products for the Pathfinder Beta when Paizo isn't even doing that?
Since the one request I have seen the most is a PF version of Tome of Horrors, I'd wager that he could get that out before the next Gen Con. It might be best if it came out at the same time.
I can easily see Paizo working closely with him to make it work.
I seriously doubt Paizo is going to allow him to release a product using their final rule set before they release said rule set to the public. I definitely can see them doing the releases at the same time though. So I don't think there is a chance that a PfRPG version of the ToH is going to be out before Gen Con next year. Now he could release his 3.5 version in print (right now it is available in .pdf I believe), but considering he thinks the 3.5 market is dead, I wouldn't put any hope in that direction.
He's also said that the 3.5 market is pretty much dried up right now. I'm not sure how true that is but he is the one selling into that channel.
Yeah but he hasn't been actively doing much in it for some time, I think, because he was preparing for 4E. So I'm not sure how in touch he is with it. Further, I don't know how where Necro was on the list of 3PPs to begin with. In the top tier, but not at the top of that tier. I think 3.5E stuff is still doing ok. At least anecdotally, Paizo, Goodman Games, and Green Ronin stuff seems to be selling around here still.
At least anecdotally, Paizo, Goodman Games, and Green Ronin stuff seems to be selling around here still.
Yes, but I wonder how much of that is, "Get it before it's gone" shopping.
At least anecdotally, Paizo, Goodman Games, and Green Ronin stuff seems to be selling around here still.Yes, but I wonder how much of that is, "Get it before it's gone" shopping.
Paizo, no. They don't have anything with a d20 logo on it. The other's I'm sure. (I know I am).
They don't need to 'allow' him to do it. He might not be able to indicate compatibility on the product but he can put out an ogl book anytime he wants that happens to be compatible with the ogl rules in Pathfinder.
Except those rules won't be out until Gen Con next year. The only way he could get them earlier is if Paizo gave them to him, and I would image if they did they'd make him sign something that said he couldn't release it until they release the system. He could try to make it compatible with the Beta version but that would be a worse choice than releasing a 3.5 version. Extremely few people are going to be using the Beta rules after next year when the final rule set comes out.