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I have been having a great time reading up on the developing world of Golarion, but two things have been nagging at me for awhile. Some small portion of my brain not quite loving everything I see and read.
I think I have figured out what the main problem is: Anachronisms!
In my mind, D&D is a Medieval-flavored fantasy game. Specifically, it appears that "classic" D&D is set in something like the Earth year 1450 or so... the state of the art is a harness of plate armour and there usually aren't any guns, for instance.
A setting like Eberron challenges some of these notions, of course, by having things like "detectives" (a word from 1830-1850) and trains and airships. Kind of cool, in a film noir way, but not "classic" fantasy. And yes, I realize that this is the point of Eberron; to be different, etc.
Golarion has some of the same bits that stick out and conspire to keep me from staying in the classic fantasy mood when reading. A good example is the "Lumber Consortium" from Darkmoon Vale.
"Lumber" is a term from ~1662 and "Consortium" is from 1820-1830. I would prefer to think of the smaller scale quasi-Medieval business models of guilds, etc instead of advanced business concepts like the definition of "consortium" implies:
[from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)]
"a combination of financial institutions, capitalists, etc., for carrying into effect some financial operation requiring large resources of capital."
That sounds like smoke filled rooms of Texas oilmen deciding the fate of the countryside at the end of the wild west, not like a group of woodcutters from a quasi-Medieval flavored classic fantasy setting.
The second item I'd like to critique is the art. Most of it is GREAT and I really appreciate the consistent look and feel across the board. I do not, however, personally care for the Final Fantasy-sized swords that many of the people carry! Again, I suppose the need to separate yourselves from all that came before is paramount, but here is one reader who'd favor a toned down approach in this regard.
Both of these are minor considerations, but something I'd like to discuss.
What say you, fellows?
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I don't think Golarion is attempting to be the Classic D&D Midieval world, in fact, there are many regions in Golarion that do not follow that stereotype at all, and Andoran, where the Lumber Consortium has its headquarters, is one of them. Andoran is a Republic, which is vastly different from the typical D&D Midieval society. And given the society, the Lumber Consortium makes sense, to me at least.
There are regions in Golarion that ARE typically midieval, though, which is nice for people who want to adventure there. It's got a little bit of everything.
As for the swords, they don't bother me. However, I've never understood the critique about "Final Fantasy"-sized swords. Most of the swords in those games are appropriately sized, with a few exceptions that everyone cites (ie: Cloud & Sephiroth). I'd say this is more a feature of anime (which FF relies heavily upon).
Look at it this way, though: at least Golarion's swords don't have guns built into them! :)
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Guns, wand rifles and some of the pulpier ideas concern but not enough to get upset about it. Certain words like lumber or consortium do not bother me at all, I'd prefer that to some archaic terms that I'd have to spend time looking up. I would like 20th century slang to stay out, not that Paizo has used any to my knowledge.
Guns, wand rifles and some of the pulpier ideas concern but not enough to get upset about it. Certain words like lumber or consortium do not bother me at all, I'd prefer that to some archaic terms that I'd have to spend time looking up. I would like 20th century slang to stay out, not that Paizo has used any to my knowledge.
Agreed. I don't want to have to talk like I'm at a renaissance fair. It's just too much work to care when someone 'fires' an arrow instead of 'loosing' or 'shooting' it. Vocabulary isn't a big deal. They aren't actually speaking English anyway.
Agreed. I don't want to have to talk like I'm at a renaissance fair. It's just too much work to care when someone 'fires' an arrow instead of 'loosing' or 'shooting' it. Vocabulary isn't a big deal. They aren't actually speaking English anyway.
Playing D&D without old-timey language is like playing Monopoly without dice. If you can't use words like "ambuscado" or "arquebusier", then what's the point of it all? ;-)
Playing D&D without old-timey language is like playing Monopoly without dice. If you can't use words like "ambuscado" or "arquebusier", then what's the point of it all? ;-)
You can say those words all you like. I just don't want to have to get upset when someone says 'rifle' or spells 'old' without an 'e' at the end.
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I do not, however, personally care for the Final Fantasy-sized swords that many of the people carry!
The only person with an unusually large sword is Amiri, and that's explained in her backstory.
Short version: she took it from a giant.
Creative Director
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Anachronisms DO pop up in Pathfinder now and then, and I try to make sure that the bad ones don't make it too far. But sometimes, the game is better for them. Pianos are, for example, anachronistic, as are syringes, but both seem to fit well into the game. On the other hand, things like tailored shirts and pith helmets, in my opinion, do not fit. I've killed a fair amount of art that had pith helmets creep in (at least ONE made it to print, alas...).
That said, Golarion itself isn't an attempt to represent the medieval period. It CAN, sure, but to be honest the bulk of the inspiration we're taking (and the bulk of the inspiration for Gygax, I believe) were NOT medieval-based stories, but either the ancient world (Rome, Egypt, Babylon, Atlantas, and even FURTHER back) and outright fantasy like Conan, Lord of the Rings, Dying Earth, Lankhmar, and Elric. In addition, the game itself is written and read by modern folk, so to a certain extent it's appropriate to allow modern sensibilities to seep into the game now and then, along with words like "lumber" and "Consortium" (both of which may have been invented relatively recently, but don't refer to ideas that COULDN'T exist in a D&D-style world).
To a certain extent, though, anachronisms are like porn—you know it when you see it, and that doesn't mean that the next person over will agree.
What most people don't seem to realize is that D&D is not medieval at all... Not as Medieval is supposed to be historically. Its at best a mix and match of pure fantasy, as James mentioned above
Now, on been "mediaval-like", our the classic fantasy, Golarion has its fair share. Its my guess that the first 3 APs were on Varisia because thats one of the most "classic fantasy" areas of Golarion and its easier to start with something somewhat recognizable for players and gms then with something so different (linnorms, katapesh, mammoth lords, numeria) because it would be perceived as the look and feel of Pathfinder. Especially if the first AP was about vikings. Someone might relate that poor excuse for a movie because it has vikings and its called Pathfinder ;)
"Now" that the first 18 issues are out its time to start delving into more "un-classic" adventures!
"Now" that the first 18 issues are out its time to start delving into more "un-classic" adventures!
Uhm. Thirteen issues. I'm pretty sure it's not 2009 yet. :D
Thats why I said "now" and not now ;)
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Anachronisms DO pop up in Pathfinder now and then, and I try to make sure that the bad ones don't make it too far. But sometimes, the game is better for them. Pianos are, for example, anachronistic, as are syringes, but both seem to fit well into the game. On the other hand, things like tailored shirts and pith helmets, in my opinion, do not fit. I've killed a fair amount of art that had pith helmets creep in (at least ONE made it to print, alas...).
I vote to allow Toilet Paper, some anachronisms should be automatics.
My poor Gnomes got the boot in that 'other' game, let them have fresh bottoms.To the OP,a Consortiums are a bit older than you think...Taken from the web.
Roman consortia imperii
* An early case of one emperor, remaining "sole sovereign" in charge but designating one junior and successor, was Marcus Aurelius (reigned 161–180 AD), who designated Lucius Verus—but on his death his son Commodus, whom he justly wanted to pass by, managed to seize the throne.
* Emperor Diocletian attempted an elaborate system with four emperors (two seniors styled Augustus, each with a junior styled Caesar), called the Tetrarchy. Revolutionary was the notion that each was to be simultaneously in permanent charge of one quarter of the empire, not just sharing in central government. The experiment did not live up to its promise, as succession was not smoothened but contention multiplied, so the quadruple emperorship was abandoned—not the quarters, which remained as administrative and military divisions called praetorian prefecture, as did the lower level, called diocese, and the smaller size (and larger number) of Roman provinces.
* The Roman empire was soon to be split for good, but in two halves: West (declining) and East (richer, so ascending), each under a sovereign emperor, in charge of two praetorian prefectures, each with or without a partner in his government.
* Both the notion of "partnership" (often described as "associate rulers") and Diocletian's titulature, but mainly versed in Greek (Sebastos for Augustus, a literal translation), became quite common is the eastern empire, i.e. Byzantium, which lasted a further millennium after the fall of the western ("true" Roman) empire.
* This is not to be confused with the hostile co-existence of a Latin empire of Constantinople established by Catholic crusaders on territories seized from the "Greek" (Orthodox Byzantine) empire(s)
-Oriel
Andoran is a Republic, which is vastly different from the typical D&D Midieval society.
The Republic of Venice existed from around 700 till the 1700's. It outlasted the traditional medieval period.
Look at it this way, though: at least Golarion's swords don't have guns built into them! :)
I believe there were "sword-gun" combinations during the late Medieval, early Renaissance Period (I know there were such in the 1800's).
CJ
Andoran is a Republic, which is vastly different from the typical D&D Midieval society.The Republic of Venice existed from around 700 till the 1700's. It outlasted the traditional medieval period.
Always consider Italy anything but europe when talking about the classic medieval times ;)
Italy in itself is a vastly different story, which differs greatly from the Iberic Peninsula, France, Britain, the germanic states, etc
Now, on Andoran specifically, the whole idea on Golarion of these independent colonies sound a lot like the aftershock of the french revolution, which lead to independence movements all over our planet (which, btw, includes the principalty of Andorra). Andoran is just one of such nations
Look at it this way, though: at least Golarion's swords don't have guns built into them! :)I believe there were "sword-gun" combinations during the late Medieval, early Renaissance Period (I know there were such in the 1800's).
CJ
I got a couple of pictures of mace-guns, machette-guns and axe-guns here somewhere... can't remember in which museum they were taken, though
Ild say they should be quite effective, considering they didn't have pistol clips back then ;)
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The second item I'd like to critique is the art. Most of it is GREAT and I really appreciate the consistent look and feel across the board. I do not, however, personally care for the Final Fantasy-sized swords that many of the people carry! Again, I suppose the need to separate yourselves from all that came before is paramount, but here is one reader who'd favor a toned down approach in this regard
When it comes to art, there are so many different styles, that everyone is going to have their favourites, and no-one is going to agree.
When I look at art, whether it be a painting, a story, a movie, a photo, I recognise it as a work of art - that is an interpretation of reality as seen through the artist's eyes. Place a brush, a pen, a camera in the hands of a range of different artists, and they will produce wildly different works, even given the same subject.
So when I see a picture of a warrior holding an over-sized sword - yes, he might actually have been holding an oversized sword. OR the artist might just have emphasised the size of the sword to express some point.
Another example: cartoonists alwasy exaggerate physical features, so maybe in "real life" Shelalu's ears aren't really that long, it was just the prejudices of the artist.
So I see art as being one person's interpretation of a subject, and don't get too hung up by the specifics. There are many different ways to look at a subject.
Guns, wand rifles and some of the pulpier ideas concern but not enough to get upset about it. Certain words like lumber or consortium do not bother me at all, I'd prefer that to some archaic terms that I'd have to spend time looking up. I would like 20th century slang to stay out, not that Paizo has used any to my knowledge.
Really? I loved the wand rifle.
To a certain extent, though, anachronisms are like porn—you know it when you see it, and that doesn't mean that the next person over will agree.I want my anachronistic porn!
Jump into your time-machine to bring us some hot Eloi-on-Morlock action!
Okay. That made me laugh out loud. And, if you'll see the contentious thread demanding more sexualized imagery, that's hard to do on this subject.
Bravo.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Anachronisms DO pop up in Pathfinder now and then, and I try to make sure that the bad ones don't make it too far. But sometimes, the game is better for them. Pianos are, for example, anachronistic, as are syringes, but both seem to fit well into the game. On the other hand, things like tailored shirts and pith helmets, in my opinion, do not fit. I've killed a fair amount of art that had pith helmets creep in (at least ONE made it to print, alas...).
What's wrong with pith helmets?
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I actually tend to love the anachronisms present so far in Golarion. But then I've long considered anachronism to be part of D&D's bread and butter.
And my ostrich-riding gnome in the Planescape setting totally wore a pith helmet!(then again it was Planescape)
As for HUGE swords, I generally agree that it irks me when I see it pop up but Pathfinder hasn't really done it that much. And I actually like Amiri's example because there's justification given for it.
I mean, as long as it isn't Cloud-level ridiculous, I'm generally okay with it. Hell, if I'm fine with Guts from Berserk I really can't complain too much.
I want my anachronistic porn!
FREE SAPPHO NEFERTITI VIDS CLICK NOW EARN MONEY
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Golarion has some of the same bits that stick out and conspire to keep me from staying in the classic fantasy mood when reading. A good example is the "Lumber Consortium" from Darkmoon Vale."Lumber" is a term from ~1662 and "Consortium" is from 1820-1830. I would prefer to think of the smaller scale quasi-Medieval business models of guilds, etc instead of advanced business concepts like the definition of "consortium" implies:
[from Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)]
"a combination of financial institutions, capitalists, etc., for carrying into effect some financial operation requiring large resources of capital."That sounds like smoke filled rooms of Texas oilmen deciding the fate of the countryside at the end of the wild west, not like a group of woodcutters from a quasi-Medieval flavored classic fantasy setting.
Of course, the advantage of this is the chance for a Daniel Plainview type character for the Lumber Consortium. Which just has to be done.
Of course, the advantage of this is the chance for a Daniel Plainview type character for the Lumber Consortium. Which just has to be done.
But cutting down trees isn't at all like drinking a milkshake.
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Andoran is a Republic, which is vastly different from the typical D&D Midieval society.The Republic of Venice existed from around 700 till the 1700's. It outlasted the traditional medieval period.
Look at it this way, though: at least Golarion's swords don't have guns built into them! :)I believe there were "sword-gun" combinations during the late Medieval, early Renaissance Period (I know there were such in the 1800's).
CJ
... But I said typical "D&D" medieval society. In fact, the only reason I added D&D in there was because I was aware of how little I know about real-world history. Is it sad that I know the histories of several fictional worlds better than my own?
I get your point that republics existed, but they're not something that come immediately to mind when I think D&D, I gotta say. I've always felt that the "default setting" in D&D was similar to British medieval society with monsters.
Also, sorry everyone for misspelling medieval up there several times. Please go easy on me.
I think my biggest problem with fantasy settings in general is that the races tend to end up being "humans in elf/orc/monster suits". Non-humans should be non-human. Pathfinder and Golarion has done some work with making non-humans less human, but not enough. It really does require breaking the mold and in most cases that necessitates moving outside everyones' this is another typical pseudo-Northwestern European quasi-medieval mind-set. Breaking these sorts of barriers is paramount in presenting any sort of internally coherent and believable setting.
That said one of the earliest FRPG settings was Tekumel by M.A.R. Barker. This should be the model by which believable worlds are built.
I don't have any problems with flagrant anachronisms -- one cannot assume that Golarion is the ONLY world in the cosmos. I'm used to playing in campaign settings where it is quite common to encounter a character from an entirely different universe.
Pith helmets didn't come about till the 1840's when European imperialism (more specifically industrialization) encountered the tropics.
CJ
The only person with an unusually large sword is Amiri
... and Orik, of course, who looks like he's desperately compensating for something. And who was that was with the earth breaker that had a head that was far bigger than his entire torso? Come to think of it, the iconic fighter's longsword is typically depicted as if the blade is over an inch thick. And if I had the books in front of me, I'm sure I could turn up six or eight other examples in short order.
Unrealistically gigantic weapons have become de rigeur for all fantasy art. And while that trend might annoy me personally, I accept the fact that it's become so popular and so prevailent that any normal-sized weapon will now be scoffed at as "puny." So it's here to stay, I suppose, and I might as well just get used to it.
I do like pith helmets, though. I played in a campaign in which adventurers wore waistcoats and cravats when at home and not "geared up." Little anachronisms can be fun!
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I would also like to point out that Glorion's history of civilization is quite a bit longer than ours. I can accept that certain tech has yet to evolve, language is a different thing entirely. English itself had a big boost in the late renaissance itself with Shakespeare. I could easily see how a bard somewhere else in Glorion's history could have expanded the vocabulary of the common tongue dramatically.
Forsooth!
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I, for one, really like the anachronisms that have crept into Pathfinder products. It feels like they are carefully chosen and they always seem to add something to the story/game/setting. To me, the mix and pace of anachronisms appearing has been just right.
The only exception I have to this is the wand rifle. Not a fan. I know there's gunpowder in certain parts of Golarion, but the rifle was too big a leap for me, and a rifle specially outfitted to hold wands went even further. In order to do this, in my mind, rifles would have to be commonplace enough so that someone would later modify one to hold wands. That steps really far over the line for me. YMMV
The pith helmet doesn't really bother me (I'm not crazy about it, but it appears in W2 River into Darkness and does somewhat fit with the setting there).
Pianos are, for example, anachronistic, as are syringes, but both seem to fit well into the game. On the other hand, things like tailored shirts and pith helmets, in my opinion, do not fit.
A little vice-versa, for me, regarding tailored shirts and syringes. (I'd never notice a tailored shirt - or even be able to tell what is and isn't one, possibly... but a syringe? Whoa...)
I haven't the foggiest what a pith helmet even is... (or is this one of those 'know it when I see it' moments?)
... But I said typical "D&D" medieval society. In fact, the only reason I added D&D in there was because I was aware of how little I know about real-world history. Is it sad that I know the histories of several fictional worlds better than my own?
I get your point that republics existed, but they're not something that come immediately to mind when I think D&D, I gotta say. I've always felt that the "default setting" in D&D was similar to British medieval society with monsters.
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I understand your point. If you look at the original Greyhawk I think you kind of get more of that vibe about the "British medieval society with monsters". But if you look at Mystra (pre-Greyhawk Setting for the box sets and Gazetters) you get everything from Bronze Age (even Stone Age) to Renaissance. So I guess one person's "typical D&D" isn't every one's.
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I for one always find it odd when someone says that there's not enough reality in my imagination. I for one think that this is ridiculous. In a world where dragons, demons, and magic are real, it seem a little silly to argue over how unreal things are. Personally I think that things like guns are perfectly fine in a fantyasy/medievil setting since they first appeared during the Late Middle Ages. At the time they were called hand cannons, but by the Elizabethan Period such things were common place. Since my default setting has always been the period between the 1400s and the 1600s, when increased trade and a decreased emphasis on the manor system made it possible for people to travel the long distances that D&D adventurer's often do, this has never been a problem for me.
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I haven't the foggiest what a pith helmet even is... (or is this one of those 'know it when I see it' moments?)
Yes, you'd know it when you see it
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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I read the title of this thread and instantly thought
"banking in Golarion". :-)"(My character) needs to stop off at the ATM before we enter the tavern. I'm low on coins today."
Sorry. Carry on.
You're not alone...I envisioned some kind of magical credit card that granted you access to your funds if deposited at a wizard guild somewhere.
Then I got distracted by the pith helmet discussion.
I think my biggest problem with fantasy settings in general is that the races tend to end up being "humans in elf/orc/monster suits". Non-humans should be non-human. Pathfinder and Golarion has done some work with making non-humans less human, but not enough. It really does require breaking the mold and in most cases that necessitates moving outside everyones' this is another typical pseudo-Northwestern European quasi-medieval mind-set. Breaking these sorts of barriers is paramount in presenting any sort of internally coherent and believable setting.
Though I agree with you that it's hard to break from the mold, I don't see why it's more believable for completely alien demi-humans than the typical "monster-suits".
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I read the title of this thread and instantly thought
"banking in Golarion". :-)"(My character) needs to stop off at the ATM before we enter the tavern. I'm low on coins today."
Sorry. Carry on.
You're not alone...I envisioned some kind of magical credit card that granted you access to your funds if deposited at a wizard guild somewhere.
Then I got distracted by the pith helmet discussion.
I was wondering "What would Golarion look like in 10,000AR? Would be neat to see a d20 modern Golarion.
I think my biggest problem with fantasy settings in general is that the races tend to end up being "humans in elf/orc/monster suits". Non-humans should be non-human. Pathfinder and Golarion has done some work with making non-humans less human, but not enough. It really does require breaking the mold and in most cases that necessitates moving outside everyones' this is another typical pseudo-Northwestern European quasi-medieval mind-set. Breaking these sorts of barriers is paramount in presenting any sort of internally coherent and believable setting.Though I agree with you that it's hard to break from the mold, I don't see why it's more believable for completely alien demi-humans than the typical "monster-suits".
Hmmm...I guess I have never really questioned the root of my dislike for "monster-suited" humans. I think it centers around the idea of "why bother".
If the inhuman races players encounter are just variants of humans -- why not just make them humans? If the only differences are cosmetic, wouldn't it just be easier to turn the differences into "flavor text"?
I think my point is also -- why would a creature like an elf just be a human in an "elf suit"? Wouldn't the long life-span, inherent magical ability, and ability to forgo sleep produce a non-human mindset and outlook...which by extrapolation would produce a culture and society that was equally non-human?
CJ
I think my point is also -- why would a creature like an elf just be a human in an "elf suit"? Wouldn't the long life-span, inherent magical ability, and ability to forgo sleep produce a non-human mindset and outlook...which by extrapolation would produce a culture and society that was equally non-human?
You should definitely read Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword.
You should definitely read Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword.
I did, about 25+ years ago.
CJ
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If the inhuman races players encounter are just variants of humans -- why not just make them humans? If the only differences are cosmetic, wouldn't it just be easier to turn the differences into "flavor text"?I think my point is also -- why would a creature like an elf just be a human in an "elf suit"? Wouldn't the long life-span, inherent magical ability, and ability to forgo sleep produce a non-human mindset and outlook...which by extrapolation would produce a culture and society that was equally non-human?
CJ
The races are meant for players, and the players are humans. I don't know how much you've had to exercise your roleplaying capabilities (my favorite character is my Wayward Hunter from HtR) but breaking the 'normal' bounds of human psyche can be a trying experience. They're there to add flavor to the world and keep the fantasy feel.
Just like Star Trek aliens, they're not there to be alien, but to be exaggerated aspects of humanity.
Pianos are, for example, anachronistic, as are syringes, but both seem to fit well into the game. On the other hand, things like tailored shirts and pith helmets, in my opinion, do not fit.A little vice-versa, for me, regarding tailored shirts and syringes. (I'd never notice a tailored shirt - or even be able to tell what is and isn't one, possibly... but a syringe? Whoa...)
A syringe were invented by Blaise Pascal in 1650. If other Renaissance items like rapiers and spyglasses can be in D&D, why not syringes?
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I, for one, really like the anachronisms that have crept into Pathfinder products. It feels like they are carefully chosen and they always seem to add something to the story/game/setting. To me, the mix and pace of anachronisms appearing has been just right.
The only exception I have to this is the wand rifle. Not a fan. I know there's gunpowder in certain parts of Golarion, but the rifle was too big a leap for me, and a rifle specially outfitted to hold wands went even further. In order to do this, in my mind, rifles would have to be commonplace enough so that someone would later modify one to hold wands. That steps really far over the line for me. YMMV
The pith helmet doesn't really bother me (I'm not crazy about it, but it appears in W2 River into Darkness and does somewhat fit with the setting there).
The sheer amount of things I have seen with pistol grips and rifle grips over the years doesn't seem to me to be a stretch in this situation. Besicly all a wand rifle is a wand on a crossbow stock minus the bow. Tha't not a big leap to me.
A syringe were invented by Blaise Pascal in 1650. If other Renaissance items like rapiers and spyglasses can be in D&D, why not syringes?
No reason on an overall basis. That's good to know.
I just think how they're still in use today (and rapiers and spyglasses... aren't) and thus they immediately bring to mind modern hospitals. Just how I envision things.
[
The races are meant for players, and the players are humans. I don't know how much you've had to exercise your roleplaying capabilities (my favorite character is my Wayward Hunter from HtR) but breaking the 'normal' bounds of human psyche can be a trying experience. They're there to add flavor to the world and keep the fantasy feel.Just like Star Trek aliens, they're not there to be alien, but to be exaggerated aspects of humanity.
That's my point. I tend to save the inhuman for NPC races myself, but playing all the time as an "inhuman elf" would get very tiring for me.
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......Ho do you store or even don those massive pointy armors?
........
I just decided after reading this to toss in a random element in my game. The group walks into a room and there is a dead dude impaled on his own armor, which is standing on an armor stand in the corner of his room, fresh blood dripping from his wounds. He heard the party and moved with extreme haste to prepare for them but caught his toe on the carpet edge....
No XP for the party!
If you really want to tweak your noodle on preconceptions of when inventions really came around, check out Ancient Inventions. Pretty mind-boggling stuff (though the speculum made me twitch a bit). The companion book, Ancient Mysteries is plumb full of gaming ideas as well.