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Player's Handbook, page 57.
A wizard knows all cantrips (0th level), 3+Int 1st level spells. Wizards learn 2 spells of a level they can cast each time they gain a level. Higher level wizards know this base amount, plus any amount of their resources they want to spend on scrolls to copy.
Hence, 3+Int+2*(n-1) is the formula for minimum spells known. Also, 1 of the 2 spells must be from your specialist school if you specialize.
PHB p.178-179 has information on copying spells and spellbooks.
With the divine casters I've just ruled that every spell allowed for their level and class is available for them to prepare, being granted by their respective deity. I've read of others doing the same thing and I think that's the official method. It hasn't been a game-breaker thus far, at least!
You are correct:
A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level...
For Bard see PHB28 (v3.5) Table: 3-5
For Sorcerer see PHB57 (v3.5), bottom left of page. Also Table 3-17
For nth spells known when generating a wizard beyond first level, you could allow a number of bonus spells known based on the character’s INT modifier per Wizard level.
So a 3rd level Wizard with an Intelligence stat of 16-17 (+3 modifier) you could allow that character to have gained through past adventures or personal study an additional 3 spells known for 1st and 2nd level, that’s 6 additional spells known, though none for 3rd level as that’s where the character is starting at.
Another option is to roll/give out scrolls with X number of spells, rolling the spells randomly since not all spells found will be castable by the wizard
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Another option is to roll/give out scrolls with X number of spells, rolling the spells randomly since not all spells found will be castable by the wizard
I like to combine the two: roll random scrolls, and let the player/DM decide which ones to keep or copy. Then allow them to buy scrolls (to keep or copy) with their remaining liquid assets (remembering the 1/2 of wealth on consumables rule, DMG p.42)
Another option is to roll/give out scrolls with X number of spells, rolling the spells randomly since not all spells found will be castable by the wizard
I don't agree with this approach. The fighter isn't going to keep every magic weapon the party finds, and not every magic weapon the party finds will be the fighter's chosen implement. But that doesn't mean the DM randomly selects the gear a new fighter of greater than 1st level begins play with. He gets to select what gear he wants to spend his wealth-by-level allotment on. Likewise, a wizard should be free to buy whatever scrolls they want.
When a player makes a wizard of greater than 1st level in my game, they have they begin with a known spell list comprised of the 1st level spells they get, as per the DMG and discussion above, plus their 2 spells per level, plus whatever spells they want to spend their wealth-by-level on in the form of scribed scrolls (note that they must pay for both the scroll and the scribing process).
For wizards according to the rules:
Any additional spells that a wizard wants should be done by the wizard buying scrolls, at full price plus the cost to scribe them into the spellbook(s).
It might be kind of silly to bring this up, but a character starting at a higher level needs to pay full cost for any items they have, even those that they could have crafted/scribed themselves, because they are part of the character's starting wealth.
When a player makes a wizard of greater than 1st level in my game, they have they begin with a known spell list comprised of the 1st level spells they get, as per the DMG and discussion above, plus their 2 spells per level, plus whatever spells they want to spend their wealth-by-level on in the form of scribed scrolls (note that they must pay for both the scroll and the scribing process).
Technically this is how you're supposed to do it.
When a player makes a wizard of greater than 1st level in my game, they have they begin with a known spell list comprised of the 1st level spells they get, as per the DMG and discussion above, plus their 2 spells per level, plus whatever spells they want to spend their wealth-by-level on in the form of scribed scrolls (note that they must pay for both the scroll and the scribing process).Technically this is how you're supposed to do it.
Glad to know I've been reading things right this time. There was a period where I was mistaken in the area Pres Man mentions above; I allowed characters with item creation feats to acquire those things they could craft themselves at half price. But things started getting wonky when we wondered how this would affect the character's xp. Would they be a level behind everyone else and have a little catching up to do (i.e., starting somewhere near the xp cap for the starting level of the other PCs)? Or should they be given a "starting xp" pool to play around with and still be the same level as everyone else?
Then I finally grasped the rules the way Pres Man describes: it doesn't matter how the character came by the item. The wealth-by-level charts don't represent an actual loan of hard cash that the character went on a shopping spree with. They represent the raw material goods the character has likely acquired by a certain point in their career, whether through trade, theft, or artifice.
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I agree with SKR and Saern as to the RAW creation of high-levels.
But sometimes I like characters to feel more organic, and I find that giving a new character their wealth in the form of random* items puts the character more on par with existing characters in the campaign.
*By random, I mean the following method:
I take the average number of encounters such a character has likely faced (divided by 4) and generate random treasure for each encounter. I tally up the value of all monies, art/gems, disposables, and magic items, adjusting if it gets out of hand in one category (50% on one item, 25% on consumables). I take the same care in selecting items as I would when assigning treasure (ie. no-one gets anything they cannot use, but they might get something "odd" like a ring of water breathing).
The character can then choose what to do with the items as they see fit (buy things with the money, hoard art objects, sell magic items at 1/2 price if they REALLY don't want them).
I am willing to trade off slight imbalance in the wealth/level system (as that is hardly ever accurate in a real game anyway, players being greedy or generous or indifferent with items) in order to have a more organic character enter the game at a late stage.
Plus, it really discourages the munchkins who craft the perfect character and then get the perfect items, which is never the case with a true organic character.
EDIT: Sean: Does this mean you have internet access again? Or was that a post from the office?
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Then I finally grasped the rules the way Pres Man describes: it doesn't matter how the character came by the item. The wealth-by-level charts don't represent an actual loan of hard cash that the character went on a shopping spree with. They represent the raw material goods the character has likely acquired by a certain point in their career, whether through trade, theft, or artifice.
But what happened to all the XP and money they could have spent crafting items? I am approaching this as if the player had played that character for the course of their career - they would have both the alloted treasure from encounters and the items they crafted themselves (thus probably exceeding the wealth guidelines, but at the sacrifice of XP).
I am not wrapping my head around your statement. I get that the wealth-by-level guidelines represent the total value of a characters stuff. But aren't crafted items valued at half-price for item creators, since that represents the amount of effort it would take to acquire the item - they did use a feat to gain the ability after all.
I always use starting level as "starting XP", and if a character wants to craft items they just deduct the XP spent on crafting from their starting XP. If this reduces them a level, that is their choice (after all, they are getting items for half price).
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To add a new spell to the wizard's personal spellbook costs 100gp/spell level; however, that expense is not always essential.
He can save himself the scribing cost, if he wants to walk around with a captured spellbook, without bothering to translate it into his own words, and is confident of making the Spellcraft checks each time he wishes to prepare spells from it.
Could be a lot of trouble for a lower-level PC, but higher level wizards can save themselves some cash.
The question then becomes; how many spellbooks could the average PC acquire during his career? And how many pages are wasted on opposition schools, sub-optimal choices, or duplicated spells?
I do agree, that there ought to be some specific guidelines in the new rules for adjudicating this fairly, so players and DMs know where they stand.
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To add a new spell to the wizard's personal spellbook costs 100gp/spell level; however, that expense is not always essential.
Just so there is no confusion for the OP, the 2 free spells at each level do not incur this gp cost. They are absolutely free (except for the space they occupy in your spellbook(s)).
But aren't crafted items valued at half-price for item creators, since that represents the amount of effort it would take to acquire the item - they did use a feat to gain the ability after all.
Nope. Not for character creation purposes, anyway, regardless of level. It's just like the starting gear for a first level character. It doesn't matter if the fighter's sword was given to him by some patriarch/master/hobo, if he took it from a vanquished orc/hobgoblin/strangely dextrous dire flea, or if he bought it at the local free market/weaponsmith/Swords-o-Rama.
As per the RAW, the character of X level has acquired an amount of material goods valued at Y gp. It doesn't matter if they made their own orb of storms. An orb of storms is still valued at it's normal price and counts fully against their wealth-by-level.
What happens to the XP? It doesn't matter. The amount of XP the character starts with is being arbitrarily set by the DM (usually at the minimum required to achieve level X). And the DMG is saying, when character A is of level X, he has gained wealth equal to Y gp. It can simply be considered that they have independently gained an amount of XP sufficient enough to set them equal to everyone else in the party, and have not created an item in recently enough that it would affect them.
If you do all the items at half price, you have several options:
A) Ignore the loss of XP, essentially giving them a "free" 50% discount on select types of items. This the original mistake I made, but it is obviously unfair to the other PCs.
B) Reduce the creator's level by an appropriate amount of XP. But then, they're level X-1, and shouldn't that mean they have gear according to level X-1's recommended wealth by level?
C) Give them a small "pool" of XP to burn in character creation representing an excess they gained above the minimum required for their level, but have siphoned off into items before the game begins, leaving them at the same XP total as everyone else. This is, essentially, no different from A, and is also unfair.
So, when creating a new character, giving item crafters a 50% discount on the items their feats allow them to make runs into problems either in game balance, or in interpreting the rules. As odd as it may sound, the game is not designed to let characters take advantage of their item creation feats before said character actually enters play. The PC can incorporate it into their story as much as they want, but when it comes to actually counting the beans, the feat does them no good in the process of character creation.
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Technically this is how you're supposed to do it.
Sean,
First - I am a big fan of your work. Thank you.Second - my question for you is what is your preferred method for handling wizard PCs throughout a game with regard to additions to their spell book? That is, what tips have you used to avoid the duldrum that can set if the DM scrutinizes this minutae? For example, would you just have the PC pay the cost associated with the aquisition of spell transfer into their spellbook?
All: the question above is for the group as well? As an extention of the OP's question, what is your preferred way to handle the wizard PC over the course of levels?
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Evening all. I'm new to Dungeon Mastering, and I've come upon a problem that seems like it should be easily resolved...
As a new DM, you may also want to houserule that spells not found in the Player's Handbook (ie in WotC splatbooks, incl. Spell Compendium, or in 3rd party books) are rare spells that need to be found as treasure, or which can be purchased on scrolls but at a steeper price. That will help you avoid getting swamped in boatloads of unfamiliar spells, some of which can be quite game-breaking.
I'm using this approach as I'm coming back to D&D after a lengthy "leave of absence"; this restriction applies to all spellcasters, not only the wizards. However, at each new class level, characters are allowed access to one rare spell, which still has to be approved. So far, this has allowed me to keep some balance, while not frustrating the players with an overly restrictive house rule.
As per the RAW, the character of X level has acquired an amount of material goods valued at Y gp. It doesn't matter if they made their own orb of storms. An orb of storms is still valued at it's normal price and counts fully against their wealth-by-level.
If you do all the items at half price, you have several options:
A) Ignore the loss of XP, essentially giving them a "free" 50% discount on select types of items. This the original mistake I made, but it is obviously unfair to the other PCs.
B) Reduce the creator's level by an appropriate amount of XP. But then, they're level X-1, and shouldn't that mean they have gear according to level X-1's recommended wealth by level?
C) Give them a small "pool" of XP to burn in character creation representing an excess they gained above the minimum required for their level, but have siphoned off into items before the game begins, leaving them at the same XP total as everyone...
D) Allow characters to substitute 5 gp for each 1 XP (as per NPC spellcasting and market price for enchanting spells with an XP component) on items created "before play" by the character. Items created by PCs cost 70% of market price (plus masterwork item cost, special materials, expensive components, etc.), but only if they meet all of the prerequisites for creating or adding enchantments to the item. Any items or enchantments that cannot be created by the character (without help) must be purchased at full market price. Also, any items created during play must be payed for with both gp and XP.
I originally used this option for The Quicksilver Hourglass (the 30th level adventure in Dungeon # 123) and it works fairly well. You should also set limits on the market price of the items allowed for higher level characters; no item of more than 25-33% of wealth by level and no more than three items over 10% of wealth by level is usually a good limit.
To add a new spell to the wizard's personal spellbook costs 100gp/spell level; however, that expense is not always essential.
He can save himself the scribing cost, if he wants to walk around with a captured spellbook, without bothering to translate it into his own words, and is confident of making the Spellcraft checks each time he wishes to prepare spells from it.
Could be a lot of trouble for a lower-level PC, but higher level wizards can save themselves some cash.
You usually make more money from selling a spellbook (3.5 PHB pg. 179) than it costs to scribe spells (that you don't know) from it into your own. A wizard who returns from an adventure with a spellbook should scribe spells from it (possibly with a no-/low-interest loan from other party members to help cover the initial costs) and then sell it before shopping for new equipment. The only reason to keep a spellbook found on an adventure is if it contains spells of a higher level than you can cast (yet).
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But aren't crafted items valued at half-price for item creators, since that represents the amount of effort it would take to acquire the item - they did use a feat to gain the ability after all.Nope. Not for character creation purposes, anyway, regardless of level. It's just like the starting gear for a first level character. It doesn't matter if the fighter's sword was given to him by some patriarch/master/hobo, if he took it from a vanquished orc/hobgoblin/strangely dextrous dire flea, or if he bought it at the local free market/weaponsmith/Swords-o-Rama.
As per the RAW, the character of X level has acquired an amount of material goods valued at Y gp. It doesn't matter if they made their own orb of storms. An orb of storms is still valued at it's normal price and counts fully against their wealth-by-level.
What happens to the XP? It doesn't matter. The amount of XP the character starts with is being arbitrarily set by the DM (usually at the minimum required to achieve level X). And the DMG is saying, when character A is of level X, he has gained wealth equal to Y gp. It can simply be considered that they have independently gained an amount of XP sufficient enough to set them equal to everyone else in the party, and have not created an item in recently enough that it would affect them.
I understand where you are coming from, from both a rules perspective and a confusion-avoiding perspective.
But let me rephrase my statement:
If a 5th level wizard elects to take 9000gp* from wealth by level as pure platinum pieces, and once the campaign starts begins crafting items, they have effectively done exactly what you say cannot be done (granted, a DM can say no by arbitrarily controlling the timeline either to limit the # or items, or no items at all, but that just encourages players not to take item crafting feats at all). To me, that is just as confusing as letting them do it as part of character creation.
*Note, one could argue that taking money counts as a consumable resource, and thus the wizard is limited to 2250gp. This seems more reasonable as a limitation anyway.
Another rephrasing:
If you started a character at level 1, and the encounters they faced has brought them to level 5 in a 4 member party:
1. According to the treasure distribution, that character should have now received roughly 9,000gp worth of treasure (in the form of coins, items, and consumables).
2. Let's assume that gives a character roughly 1/4 of their acquired wealth in coins to freely spend on crafting, and assume they spend enough XP to reduce their level by one.
3. This actually increasing their wealth by level, as they gain twice what they spend back, so not only are they one level below the guideline, but also have more wealth than recommended for a character of level 5.
4. They have paid a level and a feat(s) (and time, if that bothers you) to have more items than a normal character. The game says that is a fair trade-off mechanically.
So why can't a new character do the same?
I would also like to point out the Sean did not necessarily agree with you, based on how he responded and what he quoted - it appears he was more concerned with the wizard spells and the cost of scribing purchased scrolls into said spellbook as the OP had asked. He didn't appear to comment on CRAFTING scrolls for a new character.
What I am saying, is I think SKR can still give his opinion about this.
EDIT: You refer to "material goods" but to quote RAW:
[quote'"DMG p.135"]
"...Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level."
No mention of material goods, only treasure received from encounters - thus no limit on crafted items aside from what is available from encounters. If a player crafted an item, they used part of their wealth to gain more wealth, so they will be ahead of the curve. Keep in mind that any PC should be limited by the average wealth of other PCs and the availability of any "retired" PCs wealth.
The only reason to keep a spellbook found on an adventure is if it contains spells of a higher level than you can cast (yet).
Well that and the fact that a spellbook can only hold 100 pages worth of spells and eventually your typical wizard is going to need more than one book.
But aren't crafted items valued at half-price for item creators, since that represents the amount of effort it would take to acquire the item - they did use a feat to gain the ability after all.Nope. Not for character creation purposes, anyway, regardless of level. It's just like the starting gear for a first level character. It doesn't matter if the fighter's sword was given to him by some patriarch/master/hobo, if he took it from a vanquished orc/hobgoblin/strangely dextrous dire flea, or if he bought it at the local free market/weaponsmith/Swords-o-Rama.
As per the RAW, the character of X level has acquired an amount of material goods valued at Y gp. It doesn't matter if they made their own orb of storms. An orb of storms is still valued at it's normal price and counts fully against their wealth-by-level.
What happens to the XP? It doesn't matter. The amount of XP the character starts with is being arbitrarily set by the DM (usually at the minimum required to achieve level X). And the DMG is saying, when character A is of level X, he has gained wealth equal to Y gp. It can simply be considered that they have independently gained an amount of XP sufficient enough to set them equal to everyone else in the party, and have not created an item in recently enough that it would affect them.
I understand where you are coming from, from both a rules perspective and a confusion-avoiding perspective.
But let me rephrase my statement:
If a 5th level wizard elects to take 9000gp* from wealth by level as pure platinum pieces, and once the campaign starts begins crafting items, they have effectively done exactly what you say cannot be done (granted, a DM can say no by arbitrarily controlling the timeline either to limit the # or items, or no items at all, but that just encourages players not to take item crafting feats at all). To me, that is just as confusing as letting them do it as part of character creation.
*[i]Note, one could...
And here we run into a situation that isn't likely to ever happen because:
A) The players aren't going to want to do that.
B) Even if they did, I trust the DM would stop them.
Note I said "likely" to happen. It could, but such a campaign format would be outside the standard conventions of the game and thus can't really be considered (since the standard conventions of the game, which many would say includes any and all rules, are the only language we have for a common discourse of this subject).
Ease of play and play balance vs. "realism." It's all a matter of where you want to draw the line. The books come down on the side of the former. You're free to change that, but it would once again fall outside the realm of the so-called "typical" game.
Besides, one could just as easily claim that your situation is not only unlikely, but completely impossible. You say a character starts at 5th level and then, before play begins, the player effectively says "Ok, I spend enough XP to drop to 4th level." Considering that there are no rules on this subject at all (to my knowledge), the DM would be perfectly within his rights to say, "No, I said you start at 5th level. That means you have exactly 10,000 XP and I'm not letting you spend even one bit of it." The DM might be heavy handed in doing so, or he may feel he's attempting to prevent abuse of the rules by looking for loopholes in one of the less precisely-worded areas of the game (not that the standards of precision in wording anywhere else are extremely high, but speaking relatively, this section is even more vague); rather than considering the spirit and intent of the rules (which I admit is open to interpretation, but I also freely admit I think I represent the most straight-forward and sensical of such interpretations).
I'd also like to point out that "treasure" and "wealth" and "material goods," in the context of D&D, are more likely to be synonyms than exact and distinct terms for discussing a character's economic status.
Finally, I'd just like to clarify that I did not invoke the authority of Sean K Reynolds on behalf of this part of my argument.
Why just taking your total wealth in coin and waiting to start the game and then crafting wouldn't usually work:
XP Cost
Experience that the spellcaster would normally keep is expended when making a magic item. The XP cost equals 1/25 of the cost of the item in gold pieces. A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.
Considering most DMs start the PCs at the minimum for a given level, this means that you wouldn't have any disposable xp to use (since using any would move back down a level which is explicitly not allowed). You'd have to do some adventuring first before getting to do any crafting. I am not sure how likely it is for a crafting character to want to run an adventure or two without any gear, just a bunch of coin.
That's... actually a very good point, and obviates most of what I said. And it's a lot simpler, too. Thanks!
Hope I didn't rile you, Jal Dorak. I've enjoyed exploring this facet of the game more in depth.
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Why just taking your total wealth in coin and waiting to start the game and then crafting wouldn't usually work:
Considering most DMs start the PCs at the minimum for a given level, this means that you wouldn't have any disposable xp to use (since using any would move back down a level which is explicitly not allowed). You'd have to do some adventuring first before getting to do any crafting. I am not sure how likely it is for a crafting character to want to run an adventure or two without any gear, just a bunch of coin.XP Cost
Experience that the spellcaster would normally keep is expended when making a magic item. The XP cost equals 1/25 of the cost of the item in gold pieces. A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.
Ah, touche! I forgot that important rule. Of course, there are times where something wierd happens like "start at halfway to the next level" in my group, which permits my argument, but if you are creating a character by RAW, then my argument is null. Now, you could have a player argue that they "just reached 5th level and so can choose not to level up" but then they should start with something between 4th level and 5th level wealth, which will maintain the wealth by level balance, as spending gp on crafting will likely not move them beyond 4th level wealth. I actually find that argument just as feasible, and more elegant than my previous one (but again, it depends on the DM allowing a player to make such an argument).
That's... actually a very good point, and obviates most of what I said. And it's a lot simpler, too. Thanks!
Hope I didn't rile you, Jal Dorak. I've enjoyed exploring this facet of the game more in depth.
By no means. It is an odd bit of mechanics that is spelled out over a wide swath of the PHB and DMG, so it was neat to have a discussion about how different DMs go about character creation!
Oh, I only brought up the SKR thing because I got that impression as your first post mentioned both Spellbooks and Crafting, SKR responded, and you responded to him - to me it seemed like you thought he agreed with everything, and I was wondering if that was clouding your arguments.
We should really link this thread as an example of how to carry on a debate without being childish. For an opposite example, see the recent Polearms Thread...yikes.
The only reason to keep a spellbook found on an adventure is if it contains spells of a higher level than you can cast (yet).Well that and the fact that a spellbook can only hold 100 pages worth of spells and eventually your typical wizard is going to need more than one book.
At 15 gp for a blank spellbook (PHB pg. 128, description pg. 130)? Again, you'll probably make more money off selling the found spellbook than you'll spend copying spells.
The only reason to keep a spellbook found on an adventure is if it contains spells of a higher level than you can cast (yet).
Well, that and any roleplaying agendas of the wizard (though I'll admit that one can't easily factor those into a mechanical/economic evaluation).