May have been covered but i can't find it anywhere.
In 3.5 raising Intelligence by magical means didn't give you any extra skill points, which i think is slightly odd as boosting Constitution gains you extra hit points.
Is this still the case in PF?
I've read through the stat and skill sections and can't find anythiing to sway one way or another.
So does a magically boosted Intelligence give the same kind of thing as Constitution or is Int boosting still only really worth it for a wizard?
|
They've slightly changed how those bonuses work. Check out p148 of the Alpha 3 document in the "Ability Bonuses" section. For those who aren't near their copy, I'll post it. :)
Ability Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases whose duration is one day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Strength: Increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your combat maneuver bonus.
Dexterity: Increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Ref lex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your armor class.
Constitution: Increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based off Wisdom.
Charisma: Increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma.
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than one day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The last paragraph is the important one - anything that has a duration greater than 24 hours (ie. an item which boosts the stat) actually increases the stat (instead of providing a temporary bonus), and then things like retroactive skill points will increase - until the item or effect is removed, of course.
Not noticed that one before. Thanks for clarifying it for me :)
Just seemed an inconsistency with stat increases.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I missed that too.
Now we have to worry about the skill points disappearing/reappearing bit.
If you take intelligence damage and it has to heal normally, how do you determine what skill points go bye bye? Do you have to take the same skill points back?
When your int goes up due to level increase, you retroacticely get skill points?
I'm 10th level and put on a Headband of Intellect +4. 24 hours later I get 20 skill points.
A week later I know I need to be an expert in a field. I take the headband off. 24 hours later the skill points go away. I put the head band back on. 24 hours later, do I get the same points back, or can I now become an instant expert in craft (underwater basketweaving)
I missed that too.
Now we have to worry about the skill points disappearing/reappearing bit.
If you take intelligence damage and it has to heal normally, how do you determine what skill points go bye bye? Do you have to take the same skill points back?
When your int goes up due to level increase, you retroacticely get skill points?
I'm 10th level and put on a Headband of Intellect +4. 24 hours later I get 20 skill points.
A week later I know I need to be an expert in a field. I take the headband off. 24 hours later the skill points go away. I put the head band back on. 24 hours later, do I get the same points back, or can I now become an instant expert in craft (underwater basketweaving)
No. I think you just make a sanity check...
I think INT bonus gives you the opportunity to learn more skills. For game purposes the extra skills just drop in when you level up. I've always told my players that they need to create the opportunity / be exposed to any skill they plan on taking before they take it. A pain in the rear, I know, but it keeps things, for lack of a better term, real. Personally I'd say that anything that doesn't give an inherant bonus to your INT doesn't effect skills... If it's a tome that gives a permanent +1 INT bonus then you get bonuses as you go up levels. If you take an item off and the bonus goes away, no go. Otherwise, like I said, make your sanity check. Or optionally your book keeping check...
|
|
Permanent bonuses - like the +1 from reading a magical tome - for sure give you the extra skill points, and maybe some retroactive ones too, but that's just once, so no big deal.
For something like the headband, make the player keep track of two sets of skill points, her "natural" ones and her magically amplified ones. And I like R-Chance's suggestion - just having skill points all of a sudden doesn't mean you can spend them. You still need to spend some time reading and training for those proficiency levels to increase. The magical boost is just potential until you have a chance to invest those points. And if the character takes off the headband, she loses the bonus skills she just learned. When she puts it back on, she gets them back in the same place they were, just like someone who has an Int drain and has some skill points temporarily suppressed doesn't get to spend them differently when the Int drain wears off.
Now, if she took off one headband and put on a different one ...
Director of Games
|
Hey there all,
You might also note that Headbands that grant and Int bonus should now include what skills those bonus ranks are put into. This is to clear up the confusion and prevent the headband from becoming interchangable skill ranks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
|
Hey there all,
You might also note that Headbands that grant an Int bonus should now include what skills those bonus ranks are put into. This is to clear up the confusion and prevent the headband from becoming interchangeable skill ranks.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So just to make sure I am reading this right, if we have a headband of Intellect +4 then it also must have built into it, Skill ranks go to XYZ skills, such as "All skill ranks must be split evenly between Knowledge (Local) and Craft (Maps)" or something else that is themed? Am I understanding that correctly?
So just to make sure I am reading this right, if we have a headband of Intellect +4 then it also must have built into it, Skill ranks go to XYZ skills, such as "All skill ranks must be split evenly between Knowledge (Local) and Craft (Maps)" or something else that is themed? Am I understanding that correctly?
I was thinking maybe you just attach the skill points you spend to the magic item. For example you pick one up and train 2 additional skills, you record that where you record the listing for the headband of intellect. Then if you lose the headband you reference the record with the magic item to reduce skill points or to add them back if the item is returned.
|
|
You might also note that Headbands that grant and Int bonus should now include what skills those bonus ranks are put into. This is to clear up the confusion and prevent the headband from becoming interchangable skill ranks.
And what if I've already maxed out the skills that the ranks are supposed to go to?
|
No, I think what Jason means is:
Balthazar the Wizard gets a Headband of Intellect +2, and gains 8 skill points. He chooses to invest 2 in Spellcraft, and 6 in Knowledge Religion. The DM should note that, so if he takes it off, and later regains it, he gets those skill points back.
Now, if his friend Balto Barrelgut puts it on, he can buy a different set of skill points, which should be noted ...
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
And what if I've already maxed out the skills that the ranks are supposed to go to?
They may become bonus ranks or are added into the Misc. Mod. column as a bonus while you wear the Headband.
I actually like the idea that a +X Headband comes with the Skill bonuses it imparts inherently written into the makeup of said item. Whoever puts on that Headband would gain exactly the same ranks in exactly the same Skills as everyone else were they to don the Headband.
From the Alpha 3 item description of the Headband of Vast Intelligence: " A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created. If no skill is listed, the headband is assumed to grant skill ranks in randomly determined Knowledge skills."
I did not read that... so my wizard is getting a headband of Intellect/ Craft Basketweaving!!!
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
There are a lot of differences between an item granting skill bonuses and skill ranks. Skill ranks, as just one example, are prerequisites to feats and prestige classes.
So, if my 10th-level Mage wears a solid-steel Headband of Smartiness +4 linked to the skills Acrobatics (a cross-class skill she already has maxed-out) and Appraise, for a couple of days, and her INT rises from 15 to 19, what, exactly, happens?
What happens when she rises to 11th Level? Can she join a prestige class that requires her current proficiency in Appraise?
What then happens when she later loses the headband to a hungry Rust Monster?
There are a lot of differences between an item granting skill bonuses and skill ranks. Skill ranks, as just one example, are prerequisites to feats and prestige classes.
So, if my 10th-level Mage wears a solid-steel Headband of Smartiness +4 linked to the skills Acrobatics (a cross-class skill she already has maxed-out) and Appraise, for a couple of days, and her INT rises from 15 to 19, what, exactly, happens?
Well since the item says the skill ranks don't stack with existing skills the character gains INT but no skill ranks. You now have 2*level skill ranks that are unspent. It's not clear if you can spend them at a later time or not I guess.
What happens when she rises to 11th Level? Can she join a prestige class that requires her current proficiency in Appraise?
The ranks from the item do not stack with existing ranks, but setting that aside what if she wasn't trained in a skill? I would rule yes she could enter the PrC, and progress in it. Maybe this is a cheesy abusable way players could get around a PrC prereqs. In my campaign it wouldn't be an issue because players don't have perfect access to magic items. Finding the exact headband a player is looking for would be a time consuming process and might be more expensive than a standard one.
Incidentally I would think some headbands would be more rare and valuable than others. A headband of intelligence +4/ UMD? Maybe worth more than a headband of intelligence +4/ Climb.
Actually this brings up another thought. Since headbands of intellect give skill points now should they be worth more than a headband of Charisma? At least the headband of wisdom gives a bonus to will saves.
What then happens when she later loses the headband to a hungry Rust Monster?
Again, not an official answer but I would just rule she is no longer able to advance in the PrC until the headband is restored.
Again, serious potential for cheese here swapping headbands out to meet the prereqs for a new PrC every few levels. Won't be an issue in my campaign but ymmv.
|
If you are ever strength drained beneath 13str, you can no longer use power attack until you regain that strength. I would treat a PRC the same way, if you no longer met the pre-reqs then you no longer gained the benefits of the class.
Now, that isn't to say I would set up the bother of them losing BaB or HP or anything, but losing the benefits of the class(like a fallen paladin) is reasonable if they are trying to use booster items to get into the class to begin with. That seems to be a risk they know going in.
-Tarlane
If you are ever strength drained beneath 13str, you can no longer use power attack until you regain that strength. I would treat a PRC the same way, if you no longer met the pre-reqs then you no longer gained the benefits of the class.
Now, that isn't to say I would set up the bother of them losing BaB or HP or anything, but losing the benefits of the class(like a fallen paladin) is reasonable if they are trying to use booster items to get into the class to begin with. That seems to be a risk they know going in.
This isn't really a new issue. What happens if a Dwarven Defender gets reincarnated as an elf?
This isn't really a new issue. What happens if a Dwarven Defender gets reincarnated as an elf?you jump off the cliff and try again.
01, I remember dwarves were really low on the table. Am I a dwarf this time?
What!!!! I can't be a friggin' bugbear I'm a dwarven defender!!
Throws self off cliff again...
May have been covered but i can't find it anywhere.
In 3.5 raising Intelligence by magical means didn't give you any extra skill points, which i think is slightly odd as boosting Constitution gains you extra hit points.
Is this still the case in PF?
I've read through the stat and skill sections and can't find anythiing to sway one way or another.So does a magically boosted Intelligence give the same kind of thing as Constitution or is Int boosting still only really worth it for a wizard?
Increasing Int, in 3.5, already has the same mechanic as increasing constitution.
It increases future performance in the same way that con increases hp. You don't gain skill points in the past for the same reason that you don't retroactively have more hit points in the past.
This isn't really a new issue. What happens if a Dwarven Defender gets reincarnated as an elf?
I think you keep the dwarven defender abilities you already have but can no longer advance in the class until you are a dwarf again.
Increasing Int, in 3.5, already has the same mechanic as increasing constitution.
It increases future performance in the same way that con increases hp. You don't gain skill points in the past for the same reason that you don't retroactively have more hit points in the past.
Yes and no.
Yes, your character didn't suddenly have more hp in each level prior to the Con increase, but No in that Con increases add a number of hp equal to your level x the increase amount.
If you increase your Con from a 17 to an 18 at 12th level, you don't just gain the 1dX+4 hp for your new Con and level, you also gain 12 extra hp. 3.0/3.5 has worked with Int not retroactively adding skill points, so no gaining 12 extra skill points at 12 level when you increase your Int from a 17 to an 18.
Pathfinder appears to be taking the stance that adding to Int grants you extra skill points in a manner similar to how increasing Con adds to hp.