Ello
Just wrote up 11 feats to try an encompass every multi classing combinations of the 11 core classes to do away with the need for Prestige classes. The Aim of this is to create fun flexible rules for multi classing core classes that doesn't leave your character limp and flaccid at higher levels.
There are alot of potential combinations here around 65 dual class options and around 845 different level splits of those classes making balancing a bit of an issue so I figured best way to nut out the big problems is to throw it open to the forums and let you guys take a look.
I'm looking for the most abusive combinations you can come up with that would result in a character more powerful than a pure level 20 build of either class.
Then I can start tailoring individual feats to prevent said abusive combo's. and after that we should be left with 11 feat of multi classing goodness that wont give your DM an aneurysm.
Just wrote up 11 feats to try an encompass every multi classing combinations of the 11 core classes to do away with the need for Prestige classes. The Aim of this is to create fun flexible rules for multi classing core classes that doesn't leave your character limp and flaccid at higher levels.
I'm looking for the most abusive combinations you can come up with that would result in a character more powerful than a pure level 20 build of either class.
Here's the craziest abuse I could come up with... though honestly I could probably do worse with Cleric/Druid.
Also, before people gripe over the Barbarian/Monk thing, there's no Ex-Barbarian penalties in Pathfinder, so a Barbarian that becomes Lawful over time keeps all their Barbarian abilities, they just have to start progressing as some other class. Hence the Monk part.
Enkidu, Destroyer of Balance
Half Orc Barbarian 7/Monk 13
STR 32/+11 (15 Base +2 Racial +5 Level +4 Inherent +6 Enhancement)
DEX 22/+6 (15 Base +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement)
CON 26/+8 (15 Base +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement)
WIS 26/+8 (15 Base +2 Racial +3 Inherent +6 Enhancement)
INT 5/-3 (7 Base -2 Racial)
CHA 7/-2 (7 Base)
Base Speed: 100 ft.
Hit points: 280 hp (12 Max 1st +42 Barbarian +59 Monk +160 Con +7 Favored Class)
AC: 42 (10 +6 Dex +8 Wis +5 Monk +5 Deflection +7 Bracers +1 Dodge)
Fort: +26 (+5 Barb +8 Monk +8 Con +5 Resist)
Ref: +21 (+2 Barb +8 Monk +6 Dex +5 Resist)
Will: +23 (+2 Barb +8 Monk +8 Wis +5 Resist)
Spell Resistance 26
Damage Resistance 5/-
BAB +19/+14/+9/+4
Unarmed Attacks +35/+30/+25/+20
Equipment
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150k)
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 (144k)
Boots of Haste (12k)
Bracers of Armor +7 (49k)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25k)
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 (36k)
Ring of Protection +5 (50k)
Robe, Monk's (13k)
Manual of Bodily Health +5 (137k)
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137k)
Tome of Understanding +3 (82.5k)
Total Cost: 823.5k of 850k
Abilities
Orc Ferocity
Fast Movement +10
Rage Points 192 (40 + 19xCon Mod)
Rage Power(Animal Fury)
Rage Power(Surprise Accuracy)
Rage Power(Powerful Blow)
Uncanny Dodge
Imp. Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +2
Damage Reduction 5/-
Ac Bonus Wis Mod +5
Fast Movement +60 ft.
Unarmed Strikes 2d6 (2d8 w/ Monk's Belt)
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Maneuver Training
Still Mind
Ki Pool (magic, lawful, adamantine) 10+Wis mod
Slow Fall Any
High Jump (20)
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body (20)
Improved Evasion
Diamond Body
Abundant Step (Caster level 10, 800 ft. range)
Diamond Soul (SR 27)
Feats
1st Power Attack
3rd Combat Reflexes
5th Dodge
7th Wind Stance
Monk1 Stunning Fist
9th Practiced Monk
Monk2 Scorpion Style
11th Practiced Barbarian
13th Practiced Monk
Monk6 Gorgon's Fist
15th Practiced Barbarian
17th Lightning Stance
Monk10 Medusa's Wrath
19th Practiced Barbarian
Repeatable Damage:
Flurry + Extra Attack (1 ki)
+3 Attacks at Highest
Rage (1 pt.) + Power Attack (-13 attack, +13 damage) + Animal Fury (2 rage)
Unarmed Strike +25/+25/+25/+25/+20/+15/+10 (2d8+31) and Bite +25 (1d6+31)
Average Damage against AC 20: 273 pts.
Craziest Damage, against a stunned or staggered opponent:
Medusa's Wrath + Flurry + Extra Attack (1 Ki)
+5 Attacks at highest
Rage (1 pt.) + Power Attack (-13 attack, +13 damage) + Animal Fury (2 Rage) + 10x Powerful Blow (40 Rage) + 10x Surprise Accuracy (40 Rage)
Unarmed Strike +43/+43/+43/+43/+43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (2d8+51) and Bite +43 (1d6+51)
Average Damage against anything up to AC 29: 564 pts.
Whoops, forgot haste, add an extra attack to each of the above.. so... ehh...
Another 38 Average damage on the first one...
... 8 more rage points in cost on the second, and another 57 average damage.
All this is pretty crazy, but a level 20 barbarian could do pretty close to the same damage with a Greatsword.
On reflection, you could do the _exact_ same thing with a standard Barb/Monk, you'd just have a slightly lower BAB and AC, the SR/DR wouldn't be as good, and you wouldn't move quite as fast.
You'd have a smaller rage/ki pool as well, which would keep you from using the full craziness more than once, but there's not much else it would change.
Barbarian text makes reference to "Fighter Level".
I really like this. Keep at it.
Barbarian text makes reference to "Fighter Level".
Noted will be in the first revision.
Cheers
All this is pretty crazy, but a level 20 barbarian could do pretty close to the same damage with a Greatsword
Appreciate the comprehensive build. So basically just need to tweak it so that the multi doesn't do better than the Barb 20.
Any thoughts ?
My first thought is that some of the problem is the Barb BAB stacking with the Monk Flurries, simplest way I can think to limit this is to put a cap on a multi classed Monks no of base attacks to the normal 3 e.g. 20/15/10 (from barb BAB)in this case.
Can you see anything else which is overly high ? I could potentially reduce the AC and Speed bonus a touch.
Its funny but the fact D&D is so equipment dependent tends to overshadow class abilities and make balancing easier.
All this is pretty crazy, but a level 20 barbarian could do pretty close to the same damage with a GreatswordAppreciate the comprehensive build. So basically just need to tweak it so that the multi doesn't do better than the Barb 20.
Any thoughts ?
My first thought is that some of the problem is the Barb BAB stacking with the Monk Flurries, simplest way I can think to limit this is to put a cap on a multi classed Monks no of base attacks to the normal 3 e.g. 20/15/10 (from barb BAB)in this case.
Can you see anything else which is overly high ? I could potentially reduce the AC and Speed bonus a touch.
Its funny but the fact D&D is so equipment dependent tends to overshadow class abilities and make balancing easier.
I think you're trying to micromanage it a bit too much, leave the basic numeric bonuses like BAB, saves, etc. out of this, just have it increase class abilities. Preempting the usual rules on multiclassing BAB and whatnot just opens up the potential for breakage. Start from a very simple, easy to read feat, and then look for things you need to limit. Don't start out by including all the things you do want to increase with level, or you're creating a much, much harder problem for yourself, and it becomes much more difficult to update it later, or apply it to other classes in the future.
And really, the example I gave, as min-maxed as it was, wasn't much worse than a barbarian with a greataxe. The parts of it that really got Broken (Medusa Strike, for instance) are all available anyways.
(Just for comparison, a barb w/ greataxe at the same level, with the same basic stats could do Greataxe +26/+26/+21/+16/+11 (1d12+22+30+5+3d6)and Greataxe +26 (1d12+15+30+5+3d6) and Bite +21 (1d6+15+30) for a total average damage against AC 20 of 525 pts.
And that's without spending tons of rage or anything, throw in powerful blow and it's about another 155 damage on top of that. Power attack really is one of the most broken ass feats ever at high levels.)
Fair enough
I'll just dump BAB progression across the board, thinking about leaving it on Fighter though since he has so few abilities you'd need to take a feat to benefit from
Fair enough
I'll just dump BAB progression across the board, thinking about leaving it on Fighter though since he has so few abilities you'd need to take a feat to benefit from
Instead of BAB, I'd rather continue getting bonus feats (at say, 1/2 your level?)
Instead of BAB, I'd rather continue getting bonus feats (at say, 1/2 your level?)Fair enough
I'll just dump BAB progression across the board, thinking about leaving it on Fighter though since he has so few abilities you'd need to take a feat to benefit from
Hrmmm well if you take out BAB bonus all together then I could potentially see even 3/4 of feats being acceptable. The nice thing about extra feats is they don't stack for the most part and many of the better ones are BAB limited.
In fact thats another reason I recently stumbled across that the BAB bonus was prob not a good idea as it opens up many feats much earlier that have high BAB requirements and for good reason.
So for the Revision I think I will eliminate the BAB bonus completely and add the suggested feat bonus continuation something like True Fighter Level + (Effective Fighter level - True Level ) /2 = number of Bonus Fighter feats.
Thus a e.g. Fighter 6 / 14 Something with 4 Practiced Fighter would give the same number of bonus feats as a 13th level Fighter.
I'm also considering doing this with Spell casting , DC will continue to equal Effective Caster level, however for the numerical effects thinking about reducing it to the 1/2 over true level. Might also apply that system to Rage points etc, think there's less chance for abuse overall while still keeping it worthwhile to do.
Updated the pdf major changes in red a reduction in overall power across the board, lemme know if you like it
Updated the pdf major changes in red a reduction in overall power across the board, lemme know if you like it
Upon first glance, your Caster Level formula
True Level + 1/2(Effective Level - True Level)
could be described as +2 CL per Practiced feat, no?
Updated the pdf major changes in red a reduction in overall power across the board, lemme know if you like it
Upon first glance, your Caster Level formula
True Level + 1/2(Effective Level - True Level)
could be described as +2 CL per Practiced feat, no?
Hrrmm lets see
Wiz 5 / Fighter 15
5 + (20-5)/2 = 5+7.5 = 12
vs
5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 13
Kinda but not exactly
Could be easier but how would you word your feat ? Right now Effective Class level is simply your Effective character level very easy to keep track of.
