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only because 4e says it...you can use your IMAGINATION and create an encounter that has relatively easy to kill, credible threats for the PC's.....Thats what this game is supposed to do...be used with imagination. I ,like many others, fail to see why we need a specific mechanic for something that we've been doing for years...
and if you dont think my encounter with the experts and warriors will be a 'credible' threat...just read through my PBP here and you will see....
Like you, I have a good imagination as a DM, and have an understanding of the game and rules enough to come up with such encounters and mechanics on my own - such as the work you suggested with the orc party encounter etc.
Afterall, it was that imagination and understanding that helped me formulate a potential template for use as a minion in the first place.
However, I'm sure that you, like myself, at one time did NOT have such a grasp on the system, the rules, roleplaying games in general and the ability to translate your imagination into a feasible concept within the game structure.
Everyone has to start somewhere. Its good when a new player can be surrounded by good veterans such as many who are on this board - but the truth is, that the game is now being tried out by many new players in game stores wanting to learn - the game has many new players trying their hands at being a DM.
The industry of roleplaying games in general is one that typically sees the number of people who play the game past age 30 drop signifantly in comparison to those same groups of players when they were 20. Family, jobs, change of interests, and even death drives players from the hobby the older people get. Thus if we want the game to continue for those of us who are in it for the long-haul (like myself) we need to ensure that the game is friendly for new persons wanting to try it out.
All that being said - to answer you concern about there not needing to be a mechanic - I disagree. If its a bad idea - I agree no mechanic is needed - but I believe it is a good idea. And the purpose of the mechanic is to help people without our level of understanding get on board and make use of it.
If we just make a blanket statment that we dont need mechanics if we have imagination, then why do we need the rules at all? Cant we just use imagination to figure out combat, to figure out advancment and XP, or spell use? Those mechanics and structure are there for the same purpose - to guide the game. Some of us are comfortable enough with the game to ignore the XP charts and advancment and just use discretion. I do. But it needs to be there first before one can grasp that level of comfort and understanding. I rarely use the templates of monsters to the T. But thats because I've used them so much, I know what the end result typically is. I dont use the creature advancement to the T every time. Again, I'm comfortable enough with it, to know and guesstimate what the end result will look like so I don't bother with all the paperwork, looking up, and headaches. I just SWAG it and go.
But I never would have have this level of expertise and understanding to be comfortable enough to do this if it weren't for the clear and concise mechanics that were structured and laid out before me to use and learn.
But I digress, I am not elitist to consider that everyone should have the same level of understanding and the game shouldn't help cater to those who dont; many are coming to try it out from their experiences with Magic the Gathering, or MMOs, or Comic Books or whatever. I want the game to be able to be grasped and understood by new players as well - and hopefully they too will some day be able to ignore the pomp and circumstance of the mechanics and just use their experiences and knowledge to plan things; that they too will have the capability to imagine something like a minion template and make it structurally sound within the system.
Your ideas with orcs is a great idea; and thats typically how I do it. But it's not a simple task. It takes a lot of stat blocking, planninng etc. Now I've done this with many creatures, and kept their stat blocks on file for use again and again - but not everyone has done this. Not everyone has the time to plan that level of complication in an encounter.
Finally the minions idea is to help not only the DM in makin planning quicker - it makes the use of them in combat quicker. I've said I don't agree with the 1 Hp many times - and thats still true. But using it to make the critters of lesser CRs actually have a chance of hitting the higher level PCs is a great notion IMO, and deserves consideration. Finally their fixed damge each round helps speed along combats. Without a doubt combat can become cumbersome and lengthy with a lot of dice rolling - especially post 11th level.
I used many encounters similar to your idea with the orc-band; and they take a long time to resolve in combat - because there's just so many to worry about, control, roll dice for, and so many various stats and abilities to remember.
I dont expect PAIZO to implement such a structure as a core rule - but I have shared my template and idea of how they can be used thematically within the 3.PF rules. And hopefully someone gets something out of it - or at the least sparks their own creative juices to create their own in its likeness. I simply am arguing the notion that a mechanic is "not needed" and perhaps in the future such a thought can be included in a supplement of variant DM options.
The great thing about these kinds of mechanics - its useful and wonderful for someone who's going to take advantage of it and use it - and it doens't hurt one bit those DMs who simply choose to ignore it. Kinda like the Lyncanthrope rules. Its great to have them if the DM wants a game that could potentially turn a PC into a were-wolf. But it doesn't hurt that DM who simply don't want that as part of his story to worry about.
Robert
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for a 15th level party Id likely use diferent...maybe a Gith band....or a Drow War Party. It could be done easily enough...the key is always knowing your players and their characters.
True - but that's not always a luxury - if your games are more run one-shot with players at a FLGS, or a CON for instance, or a RPGA system with different players every game popping in and out.
You are right, however when it comes to a gaming table with a group of long-term friends and gamers, in a long-standing campaign. (which I do prefer).
Robert
I think quite a few people here agree that some mechanisms for automating or simplifying this aspect of encounter design would be a huge help for DMs.
I see there are 4 schools of thought:
* Those who want to port 4e minions over as-is,
. - 1 hit point
. - not damaged by missed attacks
. - deal static, relatively low damage
. - are otherwise very similar to normal monsters the party would face
* Those who want something in the ballpark of 4e but more 3e flavor
. - 1 hit point/ HD
. - Always fail saving throws
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs
* Those who feel that 3.5 monsters are fine but need a little help
. - Normal HP, use a creature with inherently lower HP,
. - High hit point creatures (giants, elementals) are not suitable as 'Minions'
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs
* Those who think 3.5 shouldn't be tweaked at all.
Everyone pick a side :)
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I think quite a few people here agree that some mechanisms for automating or simplifying this aspect of encounter design would be a huge help for DMs.
I see there are 4 schools of thought:
* Those who want to port 4e minions over as-is,
. - 1 hit point
. - not damaged by missed attacks
. - deal static, relatively low damage
. - are otherwise very similar to normal monsters the party would face* Those who want something in the ballpark of 4e but more 3e flavor
. - 1 hit point/ HD
. - Always fail saving throws
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs* Those who feel that 3.5 monsters are fine but need a little help
. - Normal HP, use a creature with inherently lower HP,
. - High hit point creatures (giants, elementals) are not suitable as 'Minions'
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs* Those who think 3.5 shouldn't be tweaked at all.
Everyone pick a side :)
Yeah and the truth of the matter is - none of them are "wrong." I think we can all agree here that there is no "wrong" way to play this game. Thats what makes roleplaying games - D&D specifically - so wonderful to play. Most of it is subjective and relative. There's no wrong way to do it; just different ways and different preferences.
And if it IS true that there's no real WRONG way to enjoy it, then as far as I'm concerned I'd rather lean and error on the side of providing MORE tools, than less, and simply discard what you're not going to use, as opposed to not providing it and expecting all new ideas to be spawned by the individual.
Take the crafting rules for instance. Not every house-campaign utilizes it. I'm willing to bet a small percentage of the home-gamers ever truly came up with an elaborate crafting system to make magical items.
Once 3rd ed came out and one was revealed it filled a void for many that they never conceptualized - many not ever realizing something like that was needed! Once it was present, it was widely accepted, appreciated, and still used and it filled that void that many never even realized it was missing. Now it's simply discarded by those who don't prefer crafting to be a part of their games, and it welcomed by those who do.
Ultimately even if I didn't use the rules for crafting magic items, I'd rather it be there for those who wanted or enjoys such a convenient and easy system, and couldn't ever come up with something like that - since so many of us couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't.
Robert
for a 15th level party Id likely use diferent...maybe a Gith band....or a Drow War Party. It could be done easily enough...the key is always knowing your players and their characters.Now let's upgrade whole thing for 15th level party I must use artifically low Con scores and there is still the CR thing....
Im running an PBP game on the boards. It's 3.5. The party is 6 5th level characters. They are facing a 5th Level Fighter (the leader of a group of Bandits) a 4th Wizard, a 4th Adept, a 3rd Ranger (the Lt), 2 2nd level Warriors (Sgts), 7 Archers (1st Experts with ranks in hide and move silent) and 10 Lancers (1st Warriors with ranks in ride)
...
Heheh... and If I don't want to? Gith, drow... sure that these are nice to fight higher level parties, but that shouldn't render the humans obsolete.
And there is still the (my favourite) hill giant problem. Let's see how long it will take the party to wipe out a hill giant band (and no, I didn't use the easily alterable ogres)? Ages if I use core monsters and the threat won't be that high. Sure that I can make the mental note to make them... say +8 Str, -6 Con... but what if I'm overdoing it? And how much XP should the PCs get? Like it was already mentioned above. An experienced DM can do that, but at least a side note concerning the topic could be included in core rules. One of those handy optional 'Behind the Curtain' thingies occasionally appearing in the books...
Oh and count me somewhere between the 3rd and the 2nd group.
Some generalization is always handy. Especially if there are more PCs and monsters in the fight. And cuting preparation time (and the amount of thinking ;) ) is also welcome (I'm home from school / work, it's 8 PM and I need to finish something for tomorrow game... ever experienced something like that?).
A Minion gets +3 to attacks and AC.
I'm still not real clear as to why not just use a weaker base creature (instead of going through all the work of nerfing an existing one), and then give the BBEG an ability/magic item that gives all his followers +X to attacks/damage/AC/whatever? It seems a lot easier and more straightforward, and then you only have to adjust the BBEG's CR, not the CRs of every mook.
A Minion gets +3 to attacks and AC.I'm still not real clear as to why not just use a weaker base creature (instead of going through all the work of nerfing an existing one), and then give the BBEG an ability/magic item that gives all his followers +X to attacks/damage/AC/whatever? It seems a lot easier and more straightforward, and then you only have to adjust the BBEG's CR, not the CRs of every mook.
You mean, sort of like the Empiror was able use the Dark Side of the Force to enhance the fighting abilities of all the Stormtroopers?
You mean, sort of like the Empiror was able use the Dark Side of the Force to enhance the fighting abilities of all the Stormtroopers?
I think he means like giving stormtroopers nice guns instead of trying to turn imperial walkers something you can 1 shot.
[Insufficient geek quotient to keep up]
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A Minion gets +3 to attacks and AC.I'm still not real clear as to why not just use a weaker base creature (instead of going through all the work of nerfing an existing one), and then give the BBEG an ability/magic item that gives all his followers +X to attacks/damage/AC/whatever? It seems a lot easier and more straightforward, and then you only have to adjust the BBEG's CR, not the CRs of every mook.
There is a very real good reason why not use a weaker base creature. That is story.
Quite simply if the rules cannot tell the story, then the rules are broke. Not the other way around. This is an example of how 3.x can mirror 4E. 4E is a game of mechanics that drives the action. In this case 3.x is just like 4E. The mechanics dictate the story.
With 3.x you cannot simulate any scene from an action movie and nearly all fantasy books, because those media make extensive use of minions. Can you imagine a Barbarian in a room of 50 guards all level appropriate, fighting them while he is naked, trying to kill the COLOSSAL stone golem, and fending off the wizard and saving the naked damsel? Yeah right it cannot be done. The rules do not allow it.
Yet Conan did just that. The difference was the guards were minions.
Thus, this is another place where 3.x is broken.
If all we wanted was easier stories we would just play World of Warcraft. I want BETTER stories, not easier.
Can you imagine a Barbarian in a room of 50 guards all level appropriate, fighting them while he is naked, trying to kill the COLOSSAL stone golem, and fending off the wizard and saving the naked damsel? Yeah right it cannot be done. The rules do not allow it.
I understand why "minion" rules are proposed. Did you read the whole post, or just the first half of the first sentence? For the sake of argument, go back, take my offering, and apply it to your scenario. The 50 guards are level 1, but the wizard's presence gives them +10 to attacks and/or damage and/or AC; now they're a credible threat (this assumes you don't just use mob rules from DMG2 to make them a CR-appropriate addition to the encounter, which would work even better). The fact that Conan sucks in 3e without a bunch of magic items is unfortunate, but something far outside the scope of this thread. Other than that, the only thing preventing this scene in 3.5 rules is the adventure writer's lack of creativity.
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I think quite a few people here agree that some mechanisms for automating or simplifying this aspect of encounter design would be a huge help for DMs.
I see there are 4 schools of thought:
* Those who want to port 4e minions over as-is,
. - 1 hit point
. - not damaged by missed attacks
. - deal static, relatively low damage
. - are otherwise very similar to normal monsters the party would face* Those who want something in the ballpark of 4e but more 3e flavor
. - 1 hit point/ HD
. - Always fail saving throws
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs* Those who feel that 3.5 monsters are fine but need a little help
. - Normal HP, use a creature with inherently lower HP,
. - High hit point creatures (giants, elementals) are not suitable as 'Minions'
. - Do some sort of bonus damage to threaten PCs* Those who think 3.5 shouldn't be tweaked at all.
Everyone pick a side :)
and thats where I fall.
Robert Brambley- I dont disagree with you that there's lots of new players that could use a mechanic that spelled things out for them....
If you notice I am an advocate of the DM's portion of the book having extensive guidelines to aid in encounter creation...I dont think adding a minion template will cause new dms to just suddenly 'get' how to create an innovative and challenging encounter. I think its a crutch.
First and foremost- I dont believe the younger crowd coming into role playing are any less intelligent or imaginative (in reality) than we were growing up...and we figured it out....granted through trial and error...but thats how experience is attained.
Second- I think its a lazy mechanic to say--- in an encounter put a bunch of 1 hp guys in with beefed up attacks just so the players have more to slaughter......c'mon...when was D&D ever about "I killed 50 Humans...yeah but I killed 75 kobolds..."
thats my 2 cents anyway.
if a Minion Mechanic was in place...would I find a use for it? sure..but then I can find a use for anything. Most GOOD DM's can. Do I think its Needed? nope...and thats what Im referring to...Its just not needed.
What is needed is a few pages helping a new DM understand how to create better encounters...how to make them challenging...how to scale up or scale down to reflect party capabilities...how not to just run 'whats in the book' without thought...
If a player cannot learn that part, then they arent going to be DM'ing for long anyway. Sorry, but its true. un-imaginative DM's parties quit playing....its just true.
This isnt meant to be an attack on your view. I just disagree with a small portion of it...(same with you Zmar ;) )
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only because 4e says it...you can use your IMAGINATION and create an encounter that has relatively easy to kill, credible threats for the PC's.....Thats what this game is supposed to do...be used with imagination. I ,like many others, fail to see why we need a specific mechanic for something that we've been doing for years...
Ummm Ok I am at the table and I decide I am going to just imagine all the bad guys gone, how much XP is that worth?
Because no one really has been doing it for years.
We need a mechanic for it because by the rules as they exist now you cannot do it.
And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions.
Now according to the encounter calculator on d20SRD.com, that combo is unbeatable. Take out the wolves and it becomes. very challenging- a tough fight but doable.
In my experience a BBEG can have henchmen but no minions with him in the big fight. How boring. How... unimaginative.
And just to keep on with the imagination thing here... if you are using imagination, you don't need any rules at all, no dice, no paper even. If, however, like the rest of the gaming community you do in fact use rules, then the rules should adapt to tell the story, and not be like 4E and cause the story to work around the rules. THAT is why I don't play 4E.
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Can you imagine a Barbarian in a room of 50 guards all level appropriate, fighting them while he is naked, trying to kill the COLOSSAL stone golem, and fending off the wizard and saving the naked damsel? Yeah right it cannot be done. The rules do not allow it.I understand why "minion" rules are proposed. Did you read the whole post, or just the first half of the first sentence? For the sake of argument, go back, take my offering, and apply it to your scenario. The 50 guards are level 1, but the wizard's presence gives them +10 to attacks and/or damage and/or AC; now they're a credible threat (this assumes you don't just use mob rules from DMG2 to make them a CR-appropriate addition to the encounter, which would work even better). The fact that Conan sucks in 3e without a bunch of magic items is unfortunate, but something far outside the scope of this thread. Other than that, the only thing preventing this scene in 3.5 rules is the adventure writer's lack of creativity.
sorry but I disagree 100% it is not the writer's lack of creativity, it is the rules prevent the creativity from being implemented. In this case the idea is presented, but the rules don't work. So the writer must change his idea to accommodate the rules.
It sounds like you prefer the 4E method of story telling. :)
With 3.x you cannot simulate any scene from an action movie and nearly all fantasy books, because those media make extensive use of minions. Can you imagine a Barbarian in a room of 50 guards all level appropriate, fighting them while he is naked, trying to kill the COLOSSAL stone golem, and fending off the wizard and saving the naked damsel? Yeah right it cannot be done. The rules do not allow it.
Ok, for the purposes of discussing minions we need to differntiate between what type of minion we are talking about. Are we talking 1HP minions or 1HP/ die minions?
Conan won't have a problem mopping up the 5-10 HP 'minions' Kirth was talking about. However without an adamantine weapon he's worthless against the golem. Without some sort of protection the wizard will have him tied in a knot.
Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions.
You've stacked the deck; by my reckoning, you're at CR 12 before adding ANY winter wolves. But to take it a step further, a Mob of winter wolves would be CR 8. A mob (per 3.5e rules) is 12 Large creatures; use 4 mobs of them and it's EL 12. Add that to your EL 12 initial setup and you've got an EL 14 encounter: do-able for 10th level characters. (Like I said, it's not really fair that you maxed out the EL before any minions are added.) This is using existing 3.5e mechanics.
It sounds like you prefer the 4E method of story telling. :)
I disagree that any warrior should be able to kill 50 fighters who are just as experienced and as well-trained as he is, in a straight-up fight. That's not the kind of story I would tell under ANY rules set. I've outlined several ways in which he could have even odds against large groups of lesser warriors, but you've not addressed any problems with them; merely told me it's impossible, without saying why.
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only because 4e says it...you can use your IMAGINATION and create an encounter that has relatively easy to kill, credible threats for the PC's.....Thats what this game is supposed to do...be used with imagination. I ,like many others, fail to see why we need a specific mechanic for something that we've been doing for years...
Ummm Ok I am at the table and I decide I am going to just imagine all the bad guys gone, how much XP is that worth?
Don't be an Ass. You know exactly what Im referring to here. sheesh....
Because no one really has been doing it for years.
Au Contraire..I have. Please don't think you can just say others haven't...because maybe you haven't
We need a mechanic for it because by the rules as they exist now you cannot do it.
How long have you been role playing? have you never heard of the primary rule of role playing? Rules are guidelines....adjust them as needed. and yes the rules do exist..they just ARENT SPELLED OUT. Please read my posts..I agree there needs to be better guidance for new DM's...but my goodness there shouldnt be. I am no smarter than 90% of the gamers I know..and I figured out how to do it....are you saying you cant figure out how to do it?
And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions.
Why in hells name would I put all of that in an encounter. Do you really believe you could have in 1 room an Adult White Dragon, a 6 headed Cyrohydra, an Ogre Mage, a Drider, and 30 Winter Wolves? do you? and lets not even get into how far fetched it would be that all of these critters would be working for the dragon...or even begin to imagine how they would manage to work together....
I wouldnt design that scenario..because its not only unbelievable for the party, its sooo implausible as to make me shake my head wondering why you would try to dream that up...unless you just want to show how ridiculous something is.
Now according to the encounter calculator on d20SRD.com, that combo is unbeatable. Take out the wolves and it becomes. very challenging- a tough fight but doable.
In my experience a BBEG can have henchmen but no minions with him in the big fight. How boring. How... unimaginative.
yeah so in my 33 years of DM'ing I havent learned a single thing about how to make an encounter fun...without going to the absurd....(see I can do sarcasm too)
And just to keep on with the imagination thing here... if you are using imagination, you don't need any rules at all, no dice, no paper even. If, however, like the rest of the gaming community you do in fact use rules, then the rules should adapt to tell the story, and not be like 4E and cause the story to work around the rules. THAT is why I don't play 4E.
I dont play nor like 4e either. I do not get where your hostility has come from. I am not a proponent of Minions...but it seems like you have some misdirected anger here...did someone piss on your puppy or something?
because as a game...role playing is ALL about imagination..and the rules help support that...This is not a game about Accountants and Banks...where the rules ARE the game...
The Game would still be the game if we werent using any rules....The rules just make it so theres a mutual understanding for play.
jeez Krome. relax and take a chill pill.
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wrote:
And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions
and for the record..if it was a scenario as you mention here and not a single encounter..it would be very very very easy to make.
you just wouldnt run into all of them at once.
Id have the Winter Wolves be terrorizing a village area...and the party be hired to look into it...there would be a 'pool' of Winter Wolves thet could be drawn on..as the players tried to find out why the Winter Wolves suddenly started coming after the village.
In the coarse of the the adventure The Winter Wolves would let known they were driven out of their ancestors hunting grounds by a displaced Cyrohydra who was in turn displaced by the Dragon. The Drider would be out trying to hunt the Cyrohydra for some test by the Drow Leaders..(and perhaps be a hook to take the party to the underdark)....and the Ogre Mage would be the Henchman...minion...of the Dragon.
But then to me Dragons typically should be fought alone, because I play Dragons VERY VERY dangerously ;)
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I think its a lazy mechanic to say--- in an encounter put a bunch of 1 hp guys in with beefed up attacks just so the players have more to slaughter......c'mon...when was D&D ever about "I killed 50 Humans...yeah but I killed 75 kobolds..."
Once again tunnel vision has you focused on 1 hp. As Dennis Da Ogre continues to belabor - there are schools of thoughts in existance that do not occupy the thought of using just one hp critters. I am in that category and have professed that a number of times.
You are right - the use of it is not going to either make or break a newbie's ability to adapt the game. It could work either way.
My contention was that they WOULDN'T come up with doing something to that effect and use the level of intricate encounter building skills that you, I, or others have on their own.
Having the mechanic helps in that endeavor. Could the game be fun without such a concept of minium hit point minions? Sure. Its proven to be. Could it be fun with it? Absolutely.
You're right - trial and error taught us to be better at the game. But that was at a time when computer games were played on a commodore 64 and an Atari 2600. That was at a time when there really wasn't a whole lot of other RolePlaying Games that had much of a following or any real way to advertise them. Now were heavily invested in a game that has (for sake of having no better term) a rival with WotC and 4E in existance; not to mention the easy immediately gratifying MMORPGs, Magic the Gathering, and a slew of other good quality game systems out there with thanx to the internet, has become a part of every gamers lexicon of known games that could easily have them enthralled and lured away from this game.
Continuing a product in this business day and age with the mentality of "they'll just learn it by trial and error" is simply suicide to the product and company. With all the options, and competition in today's market of any pasttime, or entertainment, it is just silly to think most people will be willing to continue to 'trial and error' when a simpler method that is proven and true lies on the next shelf.
Imagine if cell phone company or a car manufacturer said, "you don't need an owners manual: lose enough calls or run out of gas enough and seize you engine - you'll figured out how to make calls, monitor your gas, and change your oil."
Is this extreme example? Yes it is. But the intent is still the same in response to 'expecting people to learn by trial and error' when they really dont have to. Its okay when theres no obvious alternative. WotC is not the only proof that there IS good competition for consumers dollar looking for a complete game.
And finally - you dont owe me or anyone else anything - but I'm asking you as a favor - please stop belaboring the 1 hp aspect. It's really annoying and has pretty much been a non-issue for 95% of those posting.
Robert
And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions.
Thank you Krome for illustrating exactly why 4e minion rules need to stay in 4e. 30 winter wolves will slaughter an 8th level party by themselves and they should by right. Making some winter wolf shaped effigy so that it can be slaughtered is just silly. If you want to do this then put in a bunch of normal wolves that are white and call them winter wolves.
Why on earth should that be a viable encounter? Why should winter wolves suddenly suck because they are in an encounter that involves a white dragon?
And finally - you dont owe me or anyone else anything - but I'm asking you as a favor - please stop belaboring the 1 hp aspect. It's really annoying and has pretty much been a non-issue for 95% of those posting.
By the same token, will someone please explain to me why the use of the Mob template, and/or the addition of an Inspire Courage-like mechanic for BBEGs, are not acceptable to the "we want minions" crowd? Specifically, what's wrong with them?
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Sorry if you can't imagine scenarios as interesting as I can and that you seem stuck with the notion that a dragon fight would even be in a room. If you use a little imagination the scenario makes perfect sense. Just think outside the dungeon. And I have been playing for nearly 28 years now.
The reason I am irritated is that people want to turn Pathfinder into a 4E.
They want to restrict the possibilities just because they don't want to use the concept. For some reason people want to find ways to make sure to turn 3.x into the box that 4E is.
For example, if you don't want to use minions in your game, that is fine. You should not even be "contributing" to this conversation to begin with. There are a lot of rules I don't use. That is no reason for some one else to decide that no one can ever use the rule.
3.x is supposed to be about possibilities, not restrictions. And yet, here you are, trying to restrict possibilities. It seems to me, your attitude (that game play should be limited to your vision) is perfect for 4E and not 3.x (after all WOTC took that approach- game play should conform to their vision).
Now I will give an example of how I was the same way. The Pathfinder Sorcerer. A horrible class design, from a mechanics point of view. Your race is actually partially dictated by your class. It would almost be as bad as saying that to be a fighter you had to be a dwarf, a barbarian had to be a half-orc. From a mechanics point of view it is just awful. And I argued vehemently against the sorcerer.
But the idea is cool. So, the story comes before the mechanics. The idea IS cool. So we don't worry about poor mechanics and take it anyway, because it makes for some good stories. So I embraced the idea.
And another reason I was irritated is your snotty response that anyone wanting to use a minion lacks imagination. Rather it seems to me that anyone who fails to see any use at all in the idea obviously lacks imagination.
So, you make a snotty comment and I let you know you were being rude and snotty by using sarcasm.
By the way in the scenario I mentioned above... It was a frozen mountainside (easily big enough for every monster there- not some underground room- imagine that...). The white dragon had the hyrda as a guard pet, the Ogre Mage was being manipulated thinking he was going to gain a lot of power from the dragon for himself and the drider was under the illusion he was controlling the dragon. In the hillside are the wolves controlled by the dragon for decades.
As the PCs approach the ice bridge to the dragon's lair, it summons the wolves to slow down the PCs. The henchmen are set out front to direct the battle and finish off the PCs if possible. The dragon watches the fight from just inside its lair. As the wolves are wiped out, the dragon prepares it's spells and abilities for combat. The henchmen don't aid one another at all, working for their own ends and do not make a good resistance. One henchman is dead and another close to it. The third is thinking of fleeing. Just then the White appears and soars into the air overhead laying down his freezing breath over the hapless PCs. And now the fight REALLY begins.
See a little imagination and it isn't so hard.
Sorry if you can't imagine scenarios as interesting as I can and that you seem stuck with the notion that a dragon fight would even be in a room.
Of the people who addressed your challenge, Dread didn't put them in a room, and I left the setting open -- it could be on a ledge overlooking the crater of a vast volcano, for all I mentioned. And if you're annoyed that all the critters are together, I'd reply that you asked how to stat a fight with ALL of the said critters in 3.5 -- not whether you could fight them one at a time. And I did so. Now you tell me, "no, you should have split them up into separate fights and added scenery, and because you didn't, I'm better than you." What gives? Or are you simply arguing for the sake of arguing?
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And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minions.Thank you Krome for illustrating exactly why 4e minion rules need to stay in 4e. 30 winter wolves will slaughter an 8th level party by themselves and they should by right. Making some winter wolf shaped effigy so that it can be slaughtered is just silly. If you want to do this then put in a bunch of normal wolves that are white and call them winter wolves.
Why on earth should that be a viable encounter? Why should winter wolves suddenly suck because they are in an encounter that involves a white dragon?
Because it is a story. Not mechanics. It is a story, not real life.
Let me ask you this... just because the rules say a dragon is CR 10, the henchmen CR8 and the wolves CR 5, why should the story not be possible?
Or should the slogan for Pathfinder be "If you can imagine it, you must check the rules first and see if you can build it, if not you just can't do it-try toning down your imagination and think only inside the dungeon."
In fact if you think about it, the mechanics are designed such that PCs should rule all the countries and the multiverse. At no time will they ever face a challenge so great they cannot overcome it, at no time will they be outclassed, at no time will even the gods be a real threat to them. But that is a topic for another discussion :)
Let's face it, in Savage Tide the PCs should have died out in the second or third installment when the Demon Prince decides they are annoying and just snuffs them out.
And, another argument for Minions, is that they are more realistic. If you are guarding some maniacal laughing doctor from a group of determined warriors, armed to the teeth, how much damage are you willing to take before you get out of the way? One slash through the guts? Add a second slash that cuts off your arm? Not bad enough yet? How about we wait for the third slash that disembowels you? Or we just wait for decapitation? Historically. one good hit and you were done. There was none of this stand there and beat on one another until body parts were all over the place. It was one good blow and body parts were every where. One hit. That is all.
And my final argument for Minions.... if the rules of 3.x were used to write fiction, there could be almost no fantasy stories out there to inspire the game. There could be no action movies ever written.
Now be that as it may... I have found my way to make minions work. One that manipulates existing rules and requires no additional rules at all, except clarification on XP.
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Robert- This is really the first post I made directly addressing the 1 HP aspect of the 4e Pathfinder idea that was put forth. I had read the myriad of ideas suggested and still think the issue is really There should be an extensive encounter design section in the final Pathfinder rule book. If that section had a minion template that wasnt ridiculous, Id likely use it too...but just adding minions because 4e has them, doesnt work for me.
Krome- It wasnt my intent to make you think I believe a person who uses minions lacks imagination, and I honestly think maybe you took my earlier posting personal. My contention was and is that putting in a Minion Template isnt the answer to the problem...giving better guidelines and assistance to folks building better encounters is...and we would all be better served by having good solid and guidelines in the Pathfinder Rule Book...rather than merely adding a template for minions and a paragraph saying how to use it. I have every right to express my opinion about minions ...as you have every right to express your opinion about them as well. Since you have been playing awhile, then you know deep in your heart...you could build any encounter you wanted, without having someone tell you to put in 1 hp mooks with arbitrarly increased attacks...(sorry Robert...I used that example again ;) )I daresay that in your example...having 30 winter Wolves with 24 hit points each (minimum) wouldnt last long to an 8th level party with a few well placed fireballs.
Anyway Krome, I dont bare you any animosity...so can we keep from making this personal? and stay to the discussion without throwing stones?
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wrote:
And no, I am not going to go fishing all through the forums to read how you run a game. Show me here. Design a scenario, using the basic 3.x rules, for a party of 4 level 8 players, with One BBEG (Adult White Dragon), three Henchmen (a Six headed Cryohydra, an Ogre Mage, and a Drider) and lets try 30 WInter Wolves as the minionsand for the record..if it was a scenario as you mention here and not a single encounter..it would be very very very easy to make.
you just wouldnt run into all of them at once.
Id have the Winter Wolves be terrorizing a village area...and the party be hired to look into it...there would be a 'pool' of Winter Wolves thet could be drawn on..as the players tried to find out why the Winter Wolves suddenly started coming after the village.
In the coarse of the the adventure The Winter Wolves would let known they were driven out of their ancestors hunting grounds by a displaced Cyrohydra who was in turn displaced by the Dragon. The Drider would be out trying to hunt the Cyrohydra for some test by the Drow Leaders..(and perhaps be a hook to take the party to the underdark)....and the Ogre Mage would be the Henchman...minion...of the Dragon.
But then to me Dragons typically should be fought alone, because I play Dragons VERY VERY dangerously ;)
Hey now that is a good scenario! I like it. Just put them all together and you have it in one encounter. And as a scenario it is easy to make. But I want some imagination and make it one scene :)
I play Dragons very dangerously as well. I play them smart. They like using henchmen and minions and pick when they fight and how it goes. I play them smart enough to know that a group who has survived all the way through every other encounter laid out for them is very powerful and not to be underestimated. I play dragons as villains, not PC fodder.
And to me Henchmen and Minions are very different.
Think of the climatic battle in X-Men 3. Magneto and his Fellowship against a handful of X-Men. Magneto sends in the "pawns" as he calls them- these are the minions. Only later does he allow Pyro- a henchman- to engage the fight. And lastly, there is no doubt, Phoenix was a henchman herself. She easily out powered Magneto- but was not the leader he was.
Now, in 3.x, that encounter was impossible. I don't care what level you are, that many low levels and you are in trouble. Again, using the d20srd.com encounter calulator, 4 PCs lvl 8. 1- lvl 12 BBEG (Magneto), 1- lvl 15 Henchman (Phoenix), 1- lvl 6 (Pyro), 20- lvl 1s (pawn mutants)= ECL 16 unbeatable.
The only way to make the scene work would be to remove Phoenix and the pawns, then it becomes ECL 12 Overpowering... still possible... but there will be deaths...
The rules for 3.x almost prohibit a big climatic massive battle. It almost always calls for the final battle to be with one or two monsters. That is kind of boring.
O and one more thing... for minions... and other storytelling art forms... 3.x should not require a GM to have decades worth of experience to be able to tell a story. A GM playing for only a few months should be able to do it too.
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Robert- This is really the first post I made directly addressing the 1 HP aspect of the 4e Pathfinder idea that was put forth. I had read the myriad of ideas suggested and still think the issue is really There should be an extensive encounter design section in the final Pathfinder rule book. If that section had a minion template that wasnt ridiculous, Id likely use it too...but just adding minions because 4e has them, doesnt work for me.
Krome- It wasnt my intent to make you think I believe a person who uses minions lacks imagination, and I honestly think maybe you took my earlier posting personal. My contention was and is that putting in a Minion Template isnt the answer to the problem...giving better guidelines and assistance to folks building better encounters is...and we would all be better served by having good solid and guidelines in the Pathfinder Rule Book...rather than merely adding a template for minions and a paragraph saying how to use it. I have every right to express my opinion about minions ...as you have every right to express your opinion about them as well. Since you have been playing awhile, then you know deep in your heart...you could build any encounter you wanted, without having someone tell you to put in 1 hp mooks with arbitrarly increased attacks...(sorry Robert...I used that example again ;) )I daresay that in your example...having 30 winter Wolves with 24 hit points each (minimum) wouldnt last long to an 8th level party with a few well placed fireballs.
Anyway Krome, I dont bare you any animosity...so can we keep from making this personal? and stay to the discussion without throwing stones?
Yes and sorry if I was getting personal.
Your response was, to me, one of the BEST comments on this entire thread. It was constructive and contributed ideas that can be discussed.
I don't think anyone so far who likes the idea of minions in this topic wants to do them only because 4E does. We want to do them because they present good story telling opportunities. My whole thing so far has been to focus the conversation on what to do to make this work. Then I get on a tangent of trying to defend the idea all together. It gets exhausting and frustrating. And unfortunately no one can see my face as I write these things. I don't MEAN to be rude (ok sometimes I do- but usually state it directly when I do) or hostile or nasty. It gets frustrating when you have an idea that needs developing-one that can be really cool if properly developed- and most people just want to say "it's a stupid idea" without looking at it and contributing.
See and there is that 1 hp thing creeping in again. That argument just has no place in this conversation.
SO, what I am trying to say in a very uncouth way, is I am sorry for being rude and personal. I just thought you should know why I was upset.
By the way another reason I may get hot on these boards was recently I POUNCED for making a humorous comment. I was called all kinds of nasty names. And yet when a woman made the exact same comments she was ok... I was attacked so viciously in that thread for no good reason. And I suspect it is spilling out here. I guess I need another self imposed leave from the boards to get over it.
So, once again...sorry.
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I do see your point (and the others) Back in 2ed Ed is was very easy to have climatic battles between large groups of opponents and the party...the almost cookie cutter method of building encounters that 3.0 and 3.5 came up with tried to take that away...It takes some work to balance the bigger fights.
If a way could be found that didnt make it ridiculous (like 1 Hp giants ;) ) then I wouldnt have a problem with it.
But Im sure you can see that a mechanic without some good guidleines would just become a crutch to sacrifice good gameplay to.
"We need a fight to get us 100 EXP"
"Ill award exp after you complete the intro to the next scenario"
"Ahh cmon man...we only need a 100 points to level"
"Yeah man just whip up a minion encounter and lets us rip em up..."
"It wont take long and then we can level"
"DM...I hate Minions" ;)
of course the example is exaggerated, but tell me you havent had a party say 'similar things'...:D
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Sorry if you can't imagine scenarios as interesting as I can and that you seem stuck with the notion that a dragon fight would even be in a room.Of the people who addressed your challenge, Dread didn't put them in a room, and I left the setting open -- it could be on a ledge overlooking the crater of a vast volcano, for all I mentioned. And if you're annoyed that all the critters are together, I'd reply that you asked how to stat a fight with ALL of the said critters in 3.5 -- not whether you could fight them one at a time. And I did so. Now you tell me, "no, you should have split them up into separate fights and added scenery, and because you didn't, I'm better than you." What gives? Or are you simply arguing for the sake of arguing?
Sorry, Dread specifically said one room, and I never saw a post from you for your encounter. Still can't find it. Maybe it was eaten by the post monster.
And ummm no I never once said you have to split them up into different fights. I asked for an imaginative way of putting those monsters together in one encounter. No one has done that but me.
Sorry but most of what you just said is made up and not on the mark. Try reading the comments again.
The encounter I made was one single encounter. It was not split into different ones.
And I still do not see you r encounter.
*shrug*
sounds like you are arguing for the sake of arguing here. Sorry.
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I do see your point (and the others) Back in 2ed Ed is was very easy to have climatic battles between large groups of opponents and the party...the almost cookie cutter method of building encounters that 3.0 and 3.5 came up with tried to take that away...It takes some work to balance the bigger fights.
If a way could be found that didnt make it ridiculous (like 1 Hp giants ;) ) then I wouldnt have a problem with it.
But Im sure you can see that a mechanic without some good guidleines would just become a crutch to sacrifice good gameplay to.
"We need a fight to get us 100 EXP"
"Ill award exp after you complete the intro to the next scenario"
"Ahh cmon man...we only need a 100 points to level"
"Yeah man just whip up a minion encounter and lets us rip em up..."
"It wont take long and then we can level"
"DM...I hate Minions" ;)
of course the example is exaggerated, but tell me you havent had a party say 'similar things'...:D
LOL
Actually I would give them what they ask for... sort of... usually I just start flipping through monster books and go "ewwww ahhh yeah I LIKE that one" and they decide they can wait. lol
Actually we did that once to my current GM and he had his son (4 yrs old) flip through the MM and find a cool picture for us to fight. I hate Balors especially at lvl 8! And umm we lost. Thank the gods it was an arena fight and the rules were actually set so don't die permanently. By the way a celestial unicorn is also hard for a good party to beat...
But honestly the same thing happens anyway. Instead of minions they just ask for goblins or kobolds.
All rules can be misused. We just need to find a way to make a better way of doing big combats. OK so let's say the minion idea won't work. How do we get those big climatic fights?
I gave my idea and it didn't seem to be popular at all. So I am out of ways to do it at the moment. I know what I want... I just do not know how to get there.
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Ok...in the idea of trying to find a way to make a minion template work...
I would do the following things...
First: make it a Template that had in its rules ..it could only be used with certain monster types
Aberration, Animal, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider, Undead
as a suggestion
Second: Give it a maximum HD and/or CR that it could be applied to...
say CR 7 or 7 HD (as a suggestion)
or maybe as an alternative make it a relative CR to the parties level...say the minion template can only be applied to a CR monster 3 levels below the party level.
Third: no arbitrary bonus'..make it still 'work' with the existing mechanics. .....the template would say something like Statistics would be at -4 from normal (below average...) and be at minimum HP's..keep the special abilities and qualities, because they will keep the mosters a threat
I asked for an imaginative way of putting those monsters together in one encounter. No one has done that but me. And I still do not see you r encounter.
And me. Quoting from my post (that shows up fine for me),
You've stacked the deck; by my reckoning, you're at CR 12 before adding ANY winter wolves. But to take it a step further, a Mob of winter wolves would be CR 8. A mob (per 3.5e rules) is 12 Large creatures; use 4 mobs of them and it's EL 12. Add that to your EL 12 initial setup and you've got an EL 14 encounter: do-able for 10th level characters. (Like I said, it's not really fair that you maxed out the EL before any minions are added.) This is using existing 3.5e mechanics.
That's the nuts and bolts of it. Add flavor to taste.
Because it is a story. Not mechanics. It is a story, not real life.
Let me ask you this... just because the rules say a dragon is CR 10, the henchmen CR8 and the wolves CR 5, why should the story not be possible?
Krome,
My issue with this is simple, a winter wolf is a tough rugged monster that is nasty and hard to kill. If a party of 8th level characters come into a room and see a white dragon and 30 winter wolves they should do the sensible thing and get the hell out of dodge. When a player sees a creature it should be that creature and roughly the same every time they encounter it. Maybe it's a little better or worse at hitting them. Maybe it's got a wizard giving him a helping hand but it's that same creature, predictability is key to helping players plan.Taking a creature and turning it into something else removes the predictability from the game. It also encourages people to think outside the game. "I see 30 winter wolves... we are so dead, use that scroll of teleport quick!" or "I see 30 winter wolves... the DM isn't trying to kill us, they must be minions... let's get 'em!!". This sort of meta-gaming doesn't help story telling, it gets in the way. The other possibility I see is the players wasting their more powerful resources killing off a threat that they perceive as greater than it is.
Finally, I've already pointed out the wand of fireball issue where players start to expect minions and change their tactics appropriately.
Now if you threw 30 regular wolves in there and the party walked in and saw them they would know what to do because they know exactly what level of a threat the wolves are. My question is, what is wrong with just putting regular wolves in there? Is it any more exciting to kill 30 gimped winter wolves than it is to kill 30 normal wolves?
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I asked for an imaginative way of putting those monsters together in one encounter. No one has done that but me. And I still do not see you r encounter.And me. Quoting from my post (that shows up fine for me),
You've stacked the deck; by my reckoning, you're at CR 12 before adding ANY winter wolves. But to take it a step further, a Mob of winter wolves would be CR 8. A mob (per 3.5e rules) is 12 Large creatures; use 4 mobs of them and it's EL 12. Add that to your EL 12 initial setup and you've got an EL 14 encounter: do-able for 10th level characters. (Like I said, it's not really fair that you maxed out the EL before any minions are added.) This is using existing 3.5e mechanics.That's the nuts and bolts of it. Add flavor to taste.
Sorry there. I was looking for a description of the whys and whats of encounter and overlooked your post. I do apologize.
And you are right I did max out the EL, but that was because I was actually looking at these critters and thought of the scenario I posed then looked at the CRs.
For me it was a story first approach, mechanics second. You did manage to take the encounter and rebuild it using the rules into an encounter that could very well work.
BTW where the heck is mob rules. I never remember seeing them before. (too many blasted rules to remember them all... I know one rule to win the all, one rule in the darkness to bind them... ok ok I am tired now)
This might all be for naught if there are good mob rules.
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I like the concept of minions, and I am open to different mechanics in order to make them work. I like the multi-opponent encounters with a hi-lo mix of monsters. I think it makes for a more interesting encounter. Mooks should be mooks. Since they are not suppose to stick around that long, so I want a quick template to populate their stats. There is no need for an extended write up.
In general, this is one area that I do hope that gets picked up in some easy to use format.
BTW where the heck is mob rules. I never remember seeing them before. This might all be for naught if there are good mob rules.
DMG2. They're usually used to make very weak opponents stronger (and MUCH easier to run) in large groups, but the beauty is that they really drag things toward a mean; a mob of powerful monsters is more powerful than a mob of halflings, but less powerful than all of the powerful monsters counted individually (simulating them getting in each others' way). Dungeon magazine has made good use of them in "Here There Be Monsters" and "And Madness Followed." And they're better than a "mook" template, because you can run all 50 bodyguards with a single set of dice rolls, streamlining play considerably.
I originally didn't want to switch to 3e due to a perceived lack of ability to "tell my stories" within the guiudelines, but I'm finding that with some practice, a couple of splatbooks, and some creative re-mechanic work, there's really nothing I can't do with it.
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BTW where the heck is mob rules. I never remember seeing them before. This might all be for naught if there are good mob rules.DMG2. They're usually used to make very weak opponents stronger (and MUCH easier to run) in large groups, but the beauty is that they really drag things toward a mean; a mob of powerful monsters is more powerful than a mob of halflings, but less powerful than all of the powerful monsters counted individually (simulating them getting in each others' way). Dungeon magazine has made good use of them in "Here There Be Monsters" and "And Madness Followed." And they're better than a "mook" template, because you can run all 50 bodyguards with a single set of dice rolls, streamlining play considerably.
I originally didn't want to switch to 3e due to a perceived lack of ability to "tell my stories" within the guiudelines, but I'm finding that with some practice, a couple of splatbooks, and some creative re-mechanic work, there's really nothing I can't do with it.
I have a DMG 2 somewhere. I have to look at that.
One of the things I always supported was a limit to the minion level. It should be a critter of some kind that is within X levels of the PCs. I was thinking 5 levels, but never higher than or equal to the PCs.
A major issue for me is XP award. Is a mook awarded XP as normal or less. I think the consensus has been less.
The way I solved it (for myself) was using Morale. Use the critter straight out of the book. But under Morale the mook is unwilling to fight past one or two hits and will flee or whatever. They don't HAVE to die. Fleeing is perfectly acceptable, as is just lying there prone and "playing dead." Depends upon the critter used as a mook.
For my Winter Wolves example the wolves are not that loyal to the white dragon and would flee after a hit or two.
The guards fighting Conan are just lying there praying he passes them on by and doesn't coup de grace them.
It has the same effect mechanically, taking the monster out of the fight, as 1 hp per hd or even 1 hp total.
However, in my way of doing it there is no mechanic for lowering XP awarded, since the only thing changed is morale, which is not part of the SRD monster description. So, would one arbitrarily lower XP by 1-2 CR or award none at all?
Does anyone even like this idea?
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Ok...in the idea of trying to find a way to make a minion template work...
I would do the following things...
First: make it a Template that had in its rules ..it could only be used with certain monster types
Aberration, Animal, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Outsider, Undead
as a suggestion
Second: Give it a maximum HD and/or CR that it could be applied to...
say CR 7 or 7 HD (as a suggestion)
or maybe as an alternative make it a relative CR to the parties level...say the minion template can only be applied to a CR monster 3 levels below the party level.
Third: no arbitrary bonus'..make it still 'work' with the existing mechanics. .....the template would say something like Statistics would be at -4 from normal (below average...) and be at minimum HP's..keep the special abilities and qualities, because they will keep the mosters a threat
Thanks for the input.
A template is exactly what I suggested several posts and pages ago. In fact my template that I've been using for my games is very similar to the one John Almond posted.
As for the reason to use them - I most assuredly am not interested in using them or anything else "just because it's in 4th ed." I dont like 4th edition. I never liked the 49ers either - in fact I despise them; but I'll admit Joe Montana was a great quarterback and the league was better for having him in it.
I do not like 4th edition. But to completely dismiss everything simply because of the logo on the book is like dismissing a person because of his nationality.
I dont like the idea for minions because it's in 4th - I like it because it's an interesting concept that I can see being used quite creatively.
Once again - I'm not suggesting one hit point - I've never suggested that. My idea was for min hit points adjusted by CON MOD.
That all being said - having a CR cap of 7 or so is counter - productive. It's idea is to be potentially challenging to characters even 18th level. CR 3 less makes more sense.
And I agree that it should be only creatures that are "warfare humanoids" orcs, goblinoids, gnolls, minotaurs, lizardfolk, humanoids, demi-humans, and for me - even giants. I used an encounter with Stone Giant minions to great success the players loved it. They certainly didn't have 1 hit point - they had 60. But the PCs were 12th level, and the paladin killed one each in one round and the fighter killed 2 in the first round.
The nice thing is the avg damage - so no rolling damage and calculating - it was quick and easy to manage. There were 8 of the stone giant minions working for a stone giant barbarian overlord who had whipped them into a religious fury of evil and terror.
By the third round all but one stone giant minion was dead, and the PCs went to work on the barbarian stone giant. It killed one PC before they dropped him.
Regardless it was a memorable encounter and the players complimented me on its design. They enjoyed it tremendously. And never once did they think "this was easy" or "oh its just 1 hp mooks - ignore em." They were sweating bullets from start to finish.
Robert
OK I looked at Mob rules and I see nothing wrong with them other than they are not OGL...
The fact that this had to be repeated proves that some people don't read the responses... I already saidd that a while ago... :)
That's also the reason why I suggested the group attack and group ability use for the minion/mook. You can group a number of minions to single die roll without compromising their individuality. You can even leave their special abilities in place, because the DC can easily rise to match the PC's save roll bonuses. This however doesn't have to be part of any template. It can be a new optional mechanic (for details just look at my post above).
This isnt meant to be an attack on your view. I just disagree with a small portion of it...(same with you Zmar ;) )
Sure, if we had an agreement we wouldn't be here. That's how typical debate works, doesn't it?
I fully agree that the encounter building is a vital part of the rules and should be given more space in the book. A few freely downloadable examples would also go a long way to help new DMs and perhaps to inspire the more experienced ones if the page count is a problem. The minion for me is a way of tweaking the creature to be useful even later in the game and doing that within limits of the game.
Basilisk or Harpy for example is a nice monster to use against a low to mid level party, but what threat do they represent to characters approaching epic levels? For individual monsters the system works fine, because I can add HDs or classes to the beasties and make them tougher, but the problem starts when a flight of harpies or a nest of basilisks enters the play (If I go by the book, otherwise I can tweak whatever I want)... That's where a mook / minion concept should pick up.
Look at the wonderful opportunity we have. We can meke the standing system better and we can even let the core rules cover the areas that previously required ad-hoc solutions or splat books, that probably won't be available to new players (of course that I know about about torrents, but that really isn't a solution toward which we want to direct people, is it?)
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OK I looked at Mob rules and I see nothing wrong with them other than they are not OGL...The fact that this had to be repeated proves that some people don't read the responses... I already saidd that a while ago... :)
That's also the reason why I suggested the group attack and group ability use for the minion/mook. You can group a number of minions to single die roll without compromising their individuality. You can even leave their special abilities in place, because the DC can easily rise to match the PC's save roll bonuses. This however doesn't have to be part of any template. It can be a new optional mechanic (for details just look at my post above).
Yep missed it :)
OK rereading posts, it seems there are two ideas for Mooks that need consolidating and it seems mass mob-like templates can do it.
One idea seems to take near PC level monsters and make them less lethal and the other is to take lower level monsters and bring them up in threat to higher level PCs.
The mob rules, mass combat idea seems to work fine for both, I think.
Hey, Robert, can you post your template again? It is lost somewhere in the billions of posts here and frankly, I'm lazy :) or someone guide me to the page it would be on. lol
Well, you didn't look for it before, but the others did... Kirth? ^^
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I'd like to see what people think about adding "minions" (from 4E, or some other variant) to Pathfinder. I personally like the concept of being able to add a good number of enemies to the fray, without overpowering the PCs. Either that or maybe some sort of template for monsters that makes them minions: 1 hp, decreased XP rewards, and so forth.
Thanks!
This may have already been suggested, but I would thing it would be very easy to do a minion in 3.5 D&D. Just assume the monster is a particularly weak one, and that it had rolled all 1s for its hit die rolls. That should give it a glass jaw, and still let it be able to menace the party a little bit.
Those are my two electrum pieces for what they are worth.
Well, you didn't look for it before, but the others did... Kirth? ^^
Yeah, you put the idea in my head, Zmar. Should've quoted you before posting the winter wolf encounter. Props! Because right away when you mentioned it, I was thinking, "perfect!"
I'm thinking such followers would get a Level Adjustment for XP/levelling linked to their 'mook level'.
Well, it could certainly be made to work, but like I said before, the idea of creating a whole new class-like mechanic strikes me as inelegant (for lack of a better word). Probably I'm over-fastidious, but I like the fact that most of the mechanics in 3.5 are consistent with one another, and I'd like to keep that. If a mob template (already published) or bard-like ability (core rules) will do it, then that's the direction I'd prefer, rather than inventing a new system.
What? No! I did not have a problem with comparing the damage total vs. the HP of the creature.I have a problem with recording damage for 8+ creatures and remembering which one had which damage total.
You could just track one pool of HPs for all the minions and every time a full minions worth of damage is done remove one.