Rogues, Rangers, and Hiding in Plain Sight

[ultrazen]

So Rangers can Hide in Plain Sight at 17th level (in natural terrain).
Why can't an experienced Rogue do something similar?
They already have Fast Stealth as a Rogue Talent, so how about an Advanced Talent such as

Stealth Master (Ex): A rogue may use the Stealth skill even if being observed.

Yes, something similar can be accomplished by using Bluff to create a momentary distraction, but this seems like a natural extension of rogue abilities, to simply fade away into the shadows.

Playtesting: As it is generally impossible to notice the halfling in the party unless she rolls a three or lower, this does not make hardly any difference in my game. YMMV.

[R_Chance]

Maybe hiding in a bunch of trees, bushes and rocks is easier than fading into the shadows. One screens you from sight, the other really doesn't. You're just counting on lighting, and inattention on potential observers part, to hide you. shadows just don't have the substance to hide behind...

[snobi]

ultrazen wrote:

They already have Fast Stealth as a Rogue Talent, so how about an Advanced Talent such as

Stealth Master (Ex): A rogue may use the Stealth skill even if being observed.

A Wilderness Thief can Hide in Plain Sight in natural terrain, so I agree something like the above should be in the standard thief description.

R_Chance wrote:

Maybe hiding in a bunch of trees, bushes and rocks is easier than fading into the shadows.

Urban Rangers have this version of HiPS:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
An urban ranger can use this ability in any area, whether natural terrain or not.

...so you would think thieves could do something similar.

[Selgard]

I tend to agree that it makes sense.. but..

do rogues really need another combat buff?
with the bleed added on and the SA immunities decreased, I don't really see rogues needing another "special thing" to them.

the SA immunity thing was bad enough :(

and I'm a pro-rogue person!

-S

[Brit O]

Honestly, I think Hide-in-Plain-Sight was just a cool ability not because of the idea of fading into darkness but because usually the hiding conditions are almost NEVER defined in a person's game.

As a Rogue preferring player, when I DM with a rogue in the party I make sure I've outlined areas of shadowy illumination and cover so they can know when they can hide during a fight.

What percentage of DMs to you think use the hiding rules RAW and remember to put those details on their map? I'd say 30% TOPS in my experience.

I've even had the horrifying experience of explaining to several players that Hiding does not work like it does in WoW (Where you just say you hide and make a check no matter the conditions, which is what HIPS almost allows).

I'd say if the Rogues get an ability like HIPS, it should have a choice in what surroundings it should work and that it can only be taken once for a specific condition. A lot of HIPS have an area it only works in or an area it doesn't work in, and letting a rogue eventually have it everywhere is broken IMO.

[Selgard]

WoW hiding should be kept just exactly there. in WoW.
oi. (and eep!)

HiPS is a good idea and a valid one for the class, i'm just not sure they need anotehr buff.
It's one of those things that, even if it was just "an option" that every rogue would take.
And options that everyone takes aren't really options, yanno?

It also allows for some themed prestige classes. (shadow dancer, i'm lookin at you.. and oh how i hope they tweak your shadow companion in paizo!).

Rogues are good enough as written. Lets please quit buffing them. Folks are already calling for a nerf of everything from their skill points to their theoretical SA damage.

-S

[poodle]

I say no, no, no, no to hiding in plain sight. Thieves can already get an skill using stealth that allows them to do this. Picture this..

group of monsters is patrolling through their territory, unaware that some thieves are also wandering through their territory. One of several things can happen.
The thieves are lurking in wait. Three Sneak attacks and half the monsters are dead or extremely messed up. Initiative rolls and the thieves with their high dex will probably go first and get off another attack or two with the possibility of a sneak attack. Alternatively they use their stealth skill to hide again. Woohooo, next round there is another set of sneak attacks I assume because the monsters don't know where the thieves are and can't do anything about it apart from flail around or retreat.

Even if the monsters are not surprised the thieves can attempt to hide in plain sight to get more sneak attacks later or just get away.

I don't know how the thieves would hide from a party of orcs in a ten by ten corridor anyway...

[ultrazen]

Thanks for the comments.
As I said, the Halfling in my game hides just fine as it is (at around 10th level, a +30 skill modifier, no significant cheesiness involved either) - all there needs to be is somewhere to hide. I do think I should respond to a couple of comments, mostly those saying rogues don't need another buff. The whole reason I allowed this for my game was that by 10th level a rogue could already easily have this ability by dipping into one level of Shadowdancer. (Granted, two of the prereqs are ranks in dancing and the mobility feat, not common rogue stuff, but not exactly a burden to get either.) Alternatively, instead of using this ability, a rogue could make a bluff check to create a distraction to hide (there still needs to be cover of some sort; HiPS does not negate the need for something to hide behind) and have the same effect, assuming the check succeeded. This is not a hide-for-the-whole-combat ability either. Rogues still have to make a hide check (at a -20 penalty) after each attack to snipe, with or without HiPS. It's also not a hide-in-the-middle-of-the-corridor ability either, since there still needs to be some place where you can hide. It basically just negates the need for that bluff check. Anyway, it's not as potent in my experience compared to, say, Crippling Strike.

Um, poodle, that kinda sounds to me like what theives do.

[Selgard]

Except that a 1 level dip in shadowdancer costs SA and "general" rogue abilities (memory leak on what the actual term is). You do pay for it in that manner, even aside from the less-than-common prerequisites for the PrC, and that one level docks them 2 skill points.

I'm not saying HipS is super hugely over powered- but it is a buff that really isn't needed for the class.

They already have multiple mechanics to hide whenever there is something to hide behind. They don't need another.

-S

[R_Chance]

snobi wrote:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

An urban ranger can use this ability in any area, whether natural terrain or not.

...so you would think thieves could do something similar.

That's what rogues get for being a core class and not waiting for a later splat book :D I think this points out a problem everybody has noticed with ability inflation in works subsequent to the core. Especially when you don't "upgrade" your core classes later. Errata / addenda posted onlne / in magazines would be useful for addresing that issue. Personally I think stealth is a rogue's primary bit and they should be better than any other class at it. I'd suggest putting the HiPS bit into the rogues special abilities, perhaps knocking out one of their other special abilities... the question being who the "victim" is :)

[Jack Hart]

ultrazen wrote:

Thanks for the comments.

As I said, the Halfling in my game hides just fine as it is (at around 10th level, a +30 skill modifier, no significant cheesiness involved either) - all there needs to be is somewhere to hide. I do think I should respond to a couple of comments, mostly those saying rogues don't need another buff. The whole reason I allowed this for my game was that by 10th level a rogue could already easily have this ability by dipping into one level of Shadowdancer. (Granted, two of the prereqs are ranks in dancing and the mobility feat, not common rogue stuff, but not exactly a burden to get either.) Alternatively, instead of using this ability, a rogue could make a bluff check to create a distraction to hide (there still needs to be cover of some sort; HiPS does not negate the need for something to hide behind) and have the same effect, assuming the check succeeded. This is not a hide-for-the-whole-combat ability either. Rogues still have to make a hide check (at a -20 penalty) after each attack to snipe, with or without HiPS. It's also not a hide-in-the-middle-of-the-corridor ability either, since there still needs to be some place where you can hide. It basically just negates the need for that bluff check. Anyway, it's not as potent in my experience compared to, say, Crippling Strike.

Um, poodle, that kinda sounds to me like what theives do.

I was rereading the HiPS rules, and while in the RAW HiPS does not negate the need for cover or concealment Camouflage (which Ranger gets at 12) says a Ranger can use the Stealth skill in a natural environment even when there is no cover or concealment. When you add HiPS it seems to imply that the Ranger standing in a field of short grass can disappear before someones eyes and still be standing there.

YAY first post!!

Edit: Nevermind. You were addressing specifically a rogue with HiPS and not Camo