There's a sizable argument going on about the removal of the Concentration skill. Based on the skill in Neverwinter Nights, I wanted to encompass some of what Concentration did before, in addition to adding all new benefits based on the PfRPG mechanics. I'm going to be doing some playtesting tomorrow to see how this pans out, and I hope others may take the time to give it a shot, and add suggestions as per what to add, modify, remove, et cetera. I copy/pasted this directly from the previous thread, and amended a bit. Ripping oneself off rocks!
Discipline (Con)
Discipline is a measure of how much self control you have, and your ability to maintain yourself in stressful situations.
-Every 4 ranks grants a +1 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Bonus when used in conjunction with any combat maneuver, either offensively or defensively.
-Discipline allows you to use a skill defensively. First, make a discipline check against the DC of the skill check you wish to use, and if successful, your next use of that skill does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
-A catch all skill for anything requiring continual concentration. Ranging from dealing with hecklers during a performance, or as a means of solving a particularly tedious Geas. Example: A monk violates his Lawful alignment in a way that causes him to lose his ability to advance until he atones. Because he is part of an order that focuses on pacience, he is tasked with counting every stone in a section of wall. He makes a Discipline check each day against the set DC. A failure means he is still unfocused, and needs to keep trying. A success means that he is back on the right path, and may continue his advancemt.
-A catch all skill to resist general dirty tricks played in combat. Dirt in your eye, kick to the shin. A disciplined character has a better chanceof avoiding these effects. They may substitute a Discipline Check instead of what would otherwise be the saving throw used. Cannot be used in this way to avoid magical effect, traps, et cetera. GM discretion is heavily encouraged on this usage.
-You may make a Discipline Check to oppose an Intimidate (demoralize) check. If you beat the Intimidate score, you are not demoralized. If you beat it by five or more, the opponent must make a check himself to resist being demoralized, using either his own discipline or a level check. This check cannot result in another demoralization. No spending the entire fight calling each other names.
Futher uses could include allowing a discipline check to maintain Focus On Target abilities (see Assassin prestige class and Raptor School tactical feat) while moving. Additionally, Discipline could grant a bonus to Diplomacy checks in hostile situations. Discipline could also be used to help a character overcome an adverse mental condition, such as an ingrained fear or an addiction.
I think it's wise to maintain Constitution as the tied ability score for a couple reasons. It allows for a skill to actually depend upon the ability score, making it that much more valuable to keep high. It also feeds on the concept of Constitution being a characters toughness. It's conceptually more appropriate for someone to be hearty and stoic than for somebody to be a weedy sickly thing, and be particularly disciplined. The skill is meant to emphasize a personal commitment to staying in control of oneself, and to not go flying off the handle. That's not to say Barbarians can't be disciplined, they just know when to take the handle, and to swing it in to somebody's face at the appropriate time.
As an addendum to the above, some of the aspects of Autohypnosis could be included as well.
-Ignore Caltrop Wound (DC 18 to ignore the movement penalty)
-Tolerate Poison (DC = Poison Save DC to delay the effect of the poison or 1 round. Usable once against a given affliction.)
-Resist Dying (DC 20 Discipline Check to stabilize)
More stuff for me to try out. Looks like I'm going to have to take bigger steps towards kill my party. Hooray!
1. Every 4 ranks grants a +1 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Bonus when used in conjunction with any combat maneuver, either offensively or defensively.
2. GM discretion is heavily encouraged on this usage.
I can see what you're after, and I don't think it's at all a bad idea overall, but I've quoted a couple of points that I personally might reconsider:
1. Steps on the monk CMB training class ability; I'm generally unwilling to subsume class features into skills, unless there's a compelling reason to do so.
2. ALL gaming requires GM discretion to some degree. Creating mechanics that run more or less solely on that is something I prefer to avoid whenever possible -- it's just too likely a source of argument at the table.
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I will self-quote as well, then. :)
Regarding adding the skill of discipline... it's a good concept, but I think it's far too "simulationy" for the system. Skills are important for 3.x D&D, that's true, but let's not slip into the GURPS realm here when it comes to skill use.
Here's what I said as a suggestion to carrying on without Concentration by using the Pathfinder Alpha rules...
I think that having the one, anomalous skill that is based off a stat that controls no other skill - and a stat that makes sense for less than 20% of the applications listed for the things people are using the skill for - is just bad design. 3.x D&D is a great ruleset, but there are things that don't make any sense, and thus we have PRPG.As for changing Concentration to be based on INT or WIS, and thus advantaging one casting class over others... if there is a strong desire to keep it why not key it to the appropriate stat based on the application? Trying to do something that requires physical resistance and powering through an injury? Sure, use CON. Trying to cast a spell while in a threatened area? Use your primary casting stat. I think the skill has been horribly misused in the past and now people are trying to push those misuses into the core rules which will do no great service to PRPG.
That said... I'm OK with no Concentration skill (obviously). Let's have a look at what has been kludged into the Concentration skill and analyse that.
"You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include"...
Casting a Spell - Spellcraft
Concentrating on an Active Spell - Spellcraft
Directing a Spell - Spellcraft
Using a Spell-Like Ability - Spellcraftor
... "using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as Disable Device, Heal, Open Lock, and Use Rope, among others)."
- That could very easily be handled by assessing a modifier to the DC for trying to use such skills in a threatened area. Say -5 to use such skills when using them in a threatened area. That makes some sense... and it actually then keys it to how good you are with the actual skill. That makes some sense, doesn't it? If you have Open Lock at 5, you're going to be a lot more nervous and easily distracted away from your task than if you have Open Lock at 25. It also could be said to show your ability to *focus* on the task at hand because of your level of familiarity with what you're doing. A generic "concentration" really need not apply here.
Checking the chart of DCs under the Concentration skill from the 3.5 PHB, it's fairly easy to go down the list and determine what would be a good substitute for the Concentration skill:
Damaged during the action: (if a spell) Spellcraft 10 + damage; (if another skill, that skill at DC10 + damage or you have to stop and start over)
Continuous Damage: same as above, but half damage added (as per Concentration)
Distracted by nondamaging spell: same, but key it off of Spellcraft or the skill currently being used.
Vigorous motion: -2 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Violent Motion: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Extraordinarily Violent montion: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Entangled: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Grappling or Pinned: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used, same limitations as listed in chart for spellcasters... would also extend that to skills which require fine movements like Open Lock)
Bad Weather: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Terrible Weather: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
(check the PHB for the full text of what constitutes bad or terrible weather.. those are just my terms :)Weather caused by a spell: I'd get rid of this and maybe increase the penalty to the above two (depending on what category of weather the spell-created weather falls into).
There... it makes more sense this way (to me, anyway) as it keys the likelihood of success to your ability with the skill in question, modified by your environment.
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Oh, and to be fair to each type of caster, one could even say that the stat modifier for the Spellcraft skill is dependent upon the stat that is being used to cast the spell. If you're casting a wizard spell, it's INT, cleric spell it's WIS, Sorcerer spell it's CHA, etc. That takes care of multiclassers, too. The Sorc/Cleric has a different Spellcraft for his Sorc spells than for his Cleric spells, for instance. That way nobody is disadvantaged, and it actually relates back to your existing class abilities and strengths.
I wanted to start out as broad as possible and weed it down from there. The input is appreciated.
Regarding the CMB, part of my intention there was to help classes with low BAB stand a slightly better chance of not getting thrashed by classes with a high CMB. It's not much, but every bit helps. In tandem with that was some love for multiclass characters. In order to make up for some of the lost CMB when going to a lower BAB class.
My other reasoning for this was heavily influenced by Rogues and Monks. While building a rogue I noticed that they were somewhat sorely lacking in the CMB department, though they can still dish out pain like no other. Monks are the never ending source of controvercy. The current complaint is that they are lacking the +hit progression in the end game. This was meant as a means to address that issue, specifically with the Improved Trip that monks get as a bonus anyways. It's not a direct +hit, but it does have the potential to be helpful. Would adjusting the total bonus downward help? Does stacking this with the monk ability give monks too much power? Going to (hopefully) test a lot of this out tonight.
I can't argue at all with your second point. I probably should have included that as more of a suggested use than a stated use. I maintain that it's good for that, but I think you are right that addressing it directly is a mistake. Perhaps as a notation to GMs, it might make more sense. But yeah, you're spot on that one.
*edit* As an addendum, would this be fair as a replacement for a Fortitude Save against Massive Damage? Conceptually, it becomes a sort of mind of matter situation, but is still Con dependant.
*further edit* Another reason I wanted to put this together is to address the (few, but significant) Prestige Classes that require Concentration as a prerequisite. I would suggest that this, at the bare minimum thematically, would fit the Kensai prestige class. That one seems to be sort of popular. Also, Force Missile Mage.
Oh, and to be fair to each type of caster, one could even say that the stat modifier for the Spellcraft skill is dependent upon the stat that is being used to cast the spell. If you're casting a wizard spell, it's INT, cleric spell it's WIS, Sorcerer spell it's CHA, etc. That takes care of multiclassers, too. The Sorc/Cleric has a different Spellcraft for his Sorc spells than for his Cleric spells, for instance. That way nobody is disadvantaged, and it actually relates back to your existing class abilities and strengths.
While functional, I'd call attention to the need to keep track of all that. The idea behind skills, in general, is that they are all definite in their requirements and bonuses. When you have a variable ability score, people get bogged down. I agree with you that it makes sense to have it variable, but there's always going to be people who will mix it up, and I see that becoming more prevalent with multiclassers.
My intention with the skill was to avoid the need for a large number of penalties for tracking. Instead of defining a limitless number of distractions, I thought it simpler to just use one skill check for all of them. I don't wish to besmirch the idea, since that's very similar to how Concentration worked before, and it got the job done, but I wanted to simply tidy everything up at once.
I'm unclear on how you mean "simulationy". I'm honestly not familiar enough with GURPS other than the acronym and the need for D6s to get the similie. I thought all skills were meant to be in some respects a simulation. Knowledge skills are how well versed you are in those areas of study, Sliegh of Hand is how deft you are with quick movements, and Swim is how good a swimmer you are. They are all fairly broad in their scopes (You don't specifically study the history of a particular Kobold tribe, you aren't just good at picking pockets, and you're assumed to be equally proficient at breast stroke as freestyle), which is what I was trying to accomplish here: Simulate a trait that reprisents a characters dedication to general self control, both physically and mentally.
If possible, please try this mechanic out. I'm enjoying the input, and it's giving me ideas as to where to rebalance or alter the skill. Heh, here's hoping Jason takes a look at this one. I'd love to get the input of a professional.
when I saw the title of this thread I imagined Seoni in black leather with whips. Was a bit disappointed I was wrong :(
Well, I am looking for more uses for the skill. Got some tweaking to do. Heh. Tweaking.
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I've heard many an argument to return Concentration to the list of skills, as well as to rename it to something more fitting, e.g., Endurance, Focus . . . and now Discipline.
I must say that I find the name, Discipline, well-suited. It can incorporate everything that was already in Concentration, as well as define other areas where constitution could conceivable play a factor.
Still, whether this is a good house rule or good for inclusion into Beta (which has already been sent to the presses), is debatable.
Here's what I like:
Pro : Discipline can replace Concentration (and Autohypnosis) w/ re: spell casting with injury, or otherwise negating injury.
Pro : Discipline can negate Intimidate (and Diplomacy).
Pro : Discipline could help enhance skill checks under hurried or threatened circumstance, i.e., Discipline to avoid penalties under inopportune circumstances and the Base Skill to make the un-penalized skill check that follows.
Pro : Discipline could benefit an opposing (or even the attacker's CMB under certain circumstances (but this needs work - see below).
Con : Synergy? Blech. Sorry. Hate that "four" letter word. Still, using Discipline to enhance a CMB roll would be interesting - if simple and not imbalancing. Not sure how, just yet.
That's all I can really come up with right now. My conclusion: Discipline is a really good suggestion.
One of the first things I noticed about the new skill system is the complete elimination of Synergy. While I liked the mechanic under the old system, it's sort of pointless here.
Anyways: Discipline modifying CMB seems to be the sort of sticking point. I'm thinking that going with a bonus every 5 ranks instead of every 4 may help this a bit. This results in only a +4 bonus at level 20, spreads out when you get the benefit, and 5 tends to be a better number when relating to skills than 4 (see previous skill rules Synergy). This is one of the aspects I really do want to keep a part of the mechanic, but perhaps the way it modifies could be changed. Instead of boosting the CMB, have it increase the DC the opponant requires. At level 20, with max ranks, that would mean your foe has a DC 19 + CMB to overcome, instead of DC + 15. This makes the skill defensive in nature, which I guess makes it less game breaking and feel less like a "Need this" skill.
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Discipline modifying CMB seems to be the sort of sticking point. I'm thinking that going with a bonus every 5 ranks instead of every 4 may help this a bit. This results in only a +4 bonus at level 20, spreads out when you get the benefit, and 5 tends to be a better number when relating to skills than 4 (see previous skill rules Synergy). This is one of the aspects I really do want to keep a part of the mechanic, but perhaps the way it modifies could be changed. Instead of boosting the CMB, have it increase the DC the opponant requires. At level 20, with max ranks, that would mean your foe has a DC 19 + CMB to overcome, instead of DC + 15. This makes the skill defensive in nature, which I guess makes it less game breaking and feel less like a "Need this" skill.
I like the idea of adjusting the DC instead of the CMB. Sort of like how specialty school casting used to work. I also like the +1 for every five levels starting at 5th. Granted, this needs to be a side benefit to Discipline. I can't seem people pumping their everso valuable skill ranks into Discipline if it only benefits this and combat casting. (I'm not saying that you limited it as such. You have suggested a great many other benefits to Discipline. I appreciate that. What you've suggested makes it a viable skill.)
So, after some playtesting, here's what I got for what works:
CMB: the DC increase, though a little bit tougher to track mentally ended up working far better, and with far less game breaking than adding to CMB. I strongly suggest using it soley for defensive purposes, since offensively, it ended up breaking the game, and some rather underhanded tricks by a wizard showed why.
-For every 5 ranks you posess in Discipline, the DC to perform a Combat Maneuver against you increases by 1.
Intimidate: This mechanic actually playtested well. My group liked backing up the mechanic with role play, especially on each other. Though this might not be used often, I can see it being a fun addition, that certain kinds of players would enjoy.
-You may make a Discipline Check to oppose an Intimidate (demoralize) check. If you beat the Intimidate score, you are not demoralized. If you beat it by five or more, the opponent must make a check himself to resist being demoralized, using either his own discipline or a level check. This check cannot result in another demoralization. No spending the entire fight calling each other names.
Defensive Skilling: This took a little getting used to, since most people don't try to use many skills in combat. However, we found some instances where it paid off. A more entertaining one (and as a GM, I should be shot for allowing this), was when a player used Craft: Weapon defensively in combat to make a club. He argued that a zero cost meant the total crafting time was zero. I said that if he made both the discipline check and the craft check, I'd let it fly. So, he was able to snap off a chair leg in a way that made it a good club.
-Discipline allows you to use a skill defensively. First, make a discipline check against the DC of the skill check you wish to use, and if successful, your next use of that skill does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, you are subject to attacks of opportunity as normal.
Continual Concentration Catch All: With some player input, we devised some situtations where this came in to good use. Particularly, a character had to remain completely silent while held in the town stocks. If he made any sound in response to the jeering crowds, he'd be punished further. A successful roll resulted in some respect from the city guard, and his release.
-A catch all skill for anything requiring continual concentration. Ranging from dealing with hecklers during a performance, or as a means of solving a particularly tedious task.
There's more or less my tested and functional version of the skill. The concerns over spellcasting, I choose not to address, because I think it wise to roll them in to spellcraft. As far as Psionics go, Psicraft works just as well for defensive manifesting as well as gaining Psionic Focus.
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-For every 5 ranks you posess in Discipline, the DC to perform a Combat Maneuver against you increases by 1.
This sounds cool. However, for this very option I think that it becomes a "skill tax" on the front-liners (who generally have fewer skills than anyone else in the party). I like the concept, but it might actually be nice to build this into a couple of classes as a "freebie" - sort of a class skill that is always at their class level in ranks. That way the fighter need not spend one of his precious skill points on it. :) I'd recommend that for the Fighter and Paladin. Barbarian doesn't strike me as a "disciplined" fighter, so none for him (plus he gets more skill points anyway). Rogue, Ranger, and Monk have more than enough skill points to spend on this if they wish.
(And you know what? I just read that section more carefully because of your work on this skill, and realized that a successful AoO doesn't flat-out negate an attempt at a Combat Manoeuvre... it just makes the DC higher to actually get the manoeuvre off. Cool!)
-You may make a Discipline Check to oppose an Intimidate (demoralize) check. If you beat the Intimidate score, you are not demoralized. If you beat it by five or more, the opponent must make a check himself to resist being demoralized, using either his own discipline or a level check. This check cannot result in another demoralization. No spending the entire fight calling each other names.
This one I still have a bit of an issue with. It is a *very* different function from the above (or the below). You're getting a free attempt to Intimidate out of the deal. Assuming you like that, though, and it will stay, I would have the counter-counter-Intimidate be required to not only exceed the initial check by 5 but also to be required to beat the standard, RAW DC for Intimidate (demoralize) (which is 10 + HD + WIS).
-Discipline allows you to use a skill defensively. First, make a discipline check against the DC of the skill check you wish to use, and if successful, your next use of that skill does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, you are subject to attacks of opportunity as normal.
This is pretty much straight from the Concentration skill, right? I would definitely limit this to standard or move action skill use... otherwise I could use it just before taking 20 on an Open Lock skill use... that seems nonsensical. Or perhaps require a roll each round as a free action to continue performing an ongoing skill which would otherwise draw an AoO.
-A catch all skill for anything requiring continual concentration. Ranging from dealing with hecklers during a performance, or as a means of solving a particularly tedious task.
I still don't believe this is appropriate (nor is the above defensive skill use) to key off of Constitution. It makes no sense to me. Presented with the same situation you described, I would have asked for a Will save on the part of the character, not a Fortitude save.
These are all neat ideas, but I think to collect them under a single skill which, IMO, is keyed to the wrong stat, is really not the way to go.
The first one (bonus to DC against combat manoeuvres) should be a class benefit for a couple of classes. I don't know that I would even allow it as a skill since now you're double-benefitting from your BAB, essentially, which goes up with your level, which controls how high your skill can be. A 10th level wizard, for example, gets a 40% boost (assuming a 10 Strength) to CMB because of this skill (BAB is only 5, this adds +2 with 10 ranks). That's the extreme case, mind you, so the percentage effect is going to be lower for pretty much every other class. Anyway, havng a skill which directly affects your defenses is going to quickly become a must-have for all classes. That it isn't a class skill for some won't matter at all anymore for this feature.
I'd recommend that this function become a feat (or chain of feats) - Disciplined Defense or something. Each time you take it, the DC to perform combat manoeuvres against you goes up by 1. Prereq: BAB 5, 10, 15, 20.
The second one (Intimidate) is iffy anyway as it gives you a free use of a skill that is usually a standard action. I would simply say that this is opposed by Intimidate, since that's what you're actually doing.
The third bit sounds more like a feat as well, akin to the Improved [Combat Manoeuvre] feats. Call it Defensive Skill Use, limit it to standard action or move action skill use, and that would make sense.
The continual concentration.... there is too much there that is rolled into coming off of Constitution, and almost none of them have anything to do with CON, most with WIS, and many would be better resolved with a save mechanic.
I agree with you about the spellcasting stuff going under Spellcraft (and the Psionics stuff going under Psicraft).
Overall I think it's a neat idea, but there are existing mechanics that can cover a lot of it already. Consolidating it has the effect of making things cheaper in a system where things are already less expensive by virtue of having more of them (feats, HPs, stat bonuses for race, skills already consolidated).
If this works for your group, and they enjoy it, then good on ya. :) However, I think it's not something I'd like to see in the core rules because it's a single skill that covers some very disparate circumstances.
I do rather like this reinterpretation of Concentration. I like many of the options it presents, though I do see the *potential* for abuse in boosting CMB defenses... Though it is flavorful and thematically appropriate. I'd accept this skill as a replacement if it was included, assuming casting defensively was still included. In addition, I heartily approve of rolling many of the applications of Autohypnosis into Concentration.
Thanks for all the positive feedback!
If one is going to abandon Spellcraft, I see no reason that one couldn't roll defensive casting in to this skill as well. Otherwise, we still have that as an option.
I tried to keep the impact on CMB as balanced as possible. With it being purely defensive now, and affecting the DC, I thought it more thematically appropriate, and less easy to abuse.
Anyways, game session tomorrow night, so I'll get to do some more playtesting.
Greaver man, You decided to have a self-quoting party about "Concentration" being a misnomer and didn't invite me? I'm hurt, really! ;D
I still think that using the word "Concentration" rather than "Perseverence" is what causes a mental disjunction for most people.
While I don't see it on the d20srd.org site, I thought I recalled something in the PHB stating that the Key Ability associated with a skill is just the one that normally governs it in most situations. i.e. If the situation warranted it, Wisdom could be used on a Concentration/Perseverence check to keep from being distracted by something annoying while Constitution could be used to handle a test of physical endurance.
EDIT: Someone else mentioned it in another thread, but "Discipline" might actually be an even better word for a Concentration/Perseverence type skill.
In all seriousness, I fully agree that a CON-based skill is needed for resolving matters that relate to interruption and AoOs — not only because it makes sense but also from a BWC standpoint. I also like the use of the word "Discipline" for such a skill. It conveys the intent much more clearly than Concentration, Endurance or Perseverence and (in terms of BWC) would be very close to where one would expect to find the "Concentration" skill in a stat block or character sheet.
Regarding the CMB, part of my intention there was to help classes with low BAB stand a slightly better chance of not getting thrashed by classes with a high CMB. It's not much, but every bit helps. In tandem with that was some love for multiclass characters. In order to make up for some of the lost CMB when going to a lower BAB class.
As far as CMB usages go, one really easy variant would be to allow characters who sink the effort into it to use their CMB modifier in place of STR+BAB for defensive CMB checks. This would provide an interesting option for those slippery rogues and resourceful mages while not punishing the melee classes that are supposed to be good at such things. Furthermore, there is already a precedence for the sort of mechanic I am suggesting: using Escape Artist to get out of a grapple.
when I saw the title of this thread I imagined Seoni in black leather with whips... :(Oh... my.... *drops laptop*
Todd has failed his Discipline check. Lucky for me, I'm using a desktop. *whistles innocently*
Todd has failed his Discipline check. Lucky for me, I'm using a desktop. *whistles innocently*
See, now this is a perfect example of the "Catchall" part of the skill. And now Todd has to make a Dexterity check.
Again, appreciate the input and support. If possible, please try it in your home games and see how it works for you. Post the results here, and maybe we can even get a dev comment.
Greaver, I've edited my longer post several times while composing my thoughts as I read thru the thread in full. Did You note my suggestion about simply replacing STR+BAB with the Discipline modifier for Defensive CMB checks?
IMO that would take care of the issue of low BAB classes that You were trying to address along with simplifying the synergy issue and allowing some classes to come out slightly ahead (vs. their normal CMB) if they invest a feat in skill focus or have Discipline as a class skill.
I did consider that one, and though I personally like it, I know there would be a vocal opposition to it. The group I see griping the most would be monks.
That usage would, unfortunately, partially mirrior one of their class abilities. Granted, the monk one is supposed to be used offensively, but it applied defensively as well. Additionally, any time you let another class something monks have, they tend to get upset. That's why the Complete Adventurer Ninja is so mediocre compared to the monk; if they had copied too many abilities and made it a good monk with weapons sort of class, then you reduce the usefulness of the orignial class.
I can see any class with full BAB progression getting upset as well. I know that I personally wouldn't particularly like having all my special attacks as a fighter easily negated by some book worm wizard.
I will gladly agree that it would be cool to use that way, and I did actually test it that way for a bit. However, it simply proved too power. Which of course meant that all my low BAB players wanted to keep it... The DC increase seemed to make everybody happy, and as such, was the more effective solution. Perhaps getting away from the whole "Everything skill related must be based on multiples of five" rut that the game has gotten itself stuck in. So, doing +1 to the defense DC for every 4 ranks would up the usefullness a bit more, and get the benefit a bit sooner. It also brings the total DC to a nice 20 AT level 20, so it's still easy to remember.
Also, I'm glad you're a fan of the skill! I don't often come up with new rules, and I'm pleased that one of my practicle ones has garnered favor.
Ah, I see Your point about trumping an existing class, though part of me wonders if that's actually a better indicator that the class in question needs more work.
And yes, I really do like the way this rule is developing! :) I'm going to hold off until I see the Beta (my current campaign is about 5 encounters away from the grand finale), but I can see myself adding this to my list of House Rules if PfRPG doesn't include something equivalent.
Well, nothing overly exciting during playtesting today. We put the skill to use with some defensive skilling, and a little with the CMB DC modifier. All in all it worked out well enough. Nothing game breaking. Granted, my players had some particularly hateful dice, but eh, happens to the best of us. After two hours of rather savage combat, the over all reaction was along the lines of "I'm glad I had it rather than not." Which is what I'm after with the skill. Nothing gamebreakingly good, but it gets the job done.
I like this idea. It revives Concentration without making another Spellcaster-only must-have skill. I mean, it's still a near must-have, but at least non-spellcasters might take it, and multiclass casters might find other uses for it.
I really like this.
I proposed that too, but there where many voices against that!
I wonder where they are now...
Well if not a WILL-save I vote for:
DISCIPLINE (WIS)
Uses:
Concentration
Auto-hypnosis
Control shape
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I proposed that too, but there where many voices against that!
I wonder where they are now...
After a certain point in the discussion, both sides just decided that it the dead horse really was dead and moved on...
If you want to rehash those points, feel free to read the thread from the beginning again. I'm sure you'll be entertained. :)