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Concentration as a skill has, I think, been seriously underutilized. When I started 3.5 as a DM, I didn't see the point of it. Then I read Quintessential Monk and started thinking about Concentration as a skill for flavoring in-game situations. Ultimately, I ended up realizing that it has a great application for each class. Here are my thoughts, harvested from playing 3.5 as a DM for the last several years (and as a veteran of Basic D&D and AD&D too, a grognard for sure):
Concentration should be a class skill for each base class. It is the only skill to use Constitution and thus provides a necessary additional reason not to treat it as a dump stat (HP bonus and Fort Saves are both good but why not feed it with a skill support too?) All classes have Craft as a class skill, some have Perform, and many have Profession. All of which seem logical to enjoy a synergy bonus from Concentration and would cement a PCs decision to develop a trade for in-character reasons. Why not roll a Concentration check rather than arbitrarily rule that the character is too distracted to 'take 10' or 'take 20'? A roll is always better than a ruling, from the gameplay perspective and it contributes to the idea that a PCs heroic focus can freeze time and achieve impossible things.
Barbarian: When attempting to accomplish a tribal rite of passage such as walking on fire or staring at the flame or the like, Concentration is the right skill to check.
Bard: To overcome hecklers, repair his instrument, and to cast his spells under difficult circumstances, concentration is the issue.
Cleric: Meditating and conducting precise rituals for in-game purposes is always a question of concentration.
Druid: Achieving the focus to communicate some fixed purpose through empathic connection while restrained or confined would seem to be a feat of Concentration.
Fighter: To see through sand kicked in the eye or with sweat or blood obscuring vision, to battle on despite the din around you in the midst of war, a fighter's concentration is often required for the greatest feats of combat. Similarly, why not use a concentration check to modify a particularly long-range shot where the range increment might otherwise impeded success? Not a huge difference, but something to let the player know the DM is considering the importance of the shot and the intensity with which the PC is lining up his action.
Monk: From board breaking to fire walking, meditating to feigning death, the monk has so many uses for concentration it is the source of this whole line of inquiry. Truly, the monk's need for effective concentration checks gives him a ton more die-rolling flavor when engaging in his kung fu.
Ranger: As the druid and the fighter, a ton of things fit the Ranger and Concentration. But how about the ability to sift out distracting and confusing details when tracking an opponent. A synergy bonus on survival checks to track seems appropriate when the Ranger focuses his concentration on a specific detail.
Rogue: This class thrives through strict attention to detail and focus. As so many other skills have situation-applicable synergy bonuses from a strong concentration, so too can the skill be directly applied for rogue situations. Disarming Devices should almost always have a concentration check influence, especially if the attempt is made in combat. Reducing it to just the roll of the die denies a rogue the chance to demonstrate his focus and excellence under pressure.
Wizard/Sorcerer: Far better than spellcraft (which I house ruled out of existence, substituting Knowledge (arcana) and concentration checks for all of spellcrafts uses) concentration reflects the arcane arts as applied in game. Casting a spell in combat has always been a fitting concentration check. Evaluating an enemy spell for counterspell seems much more a question of knowledge rather than 'spellcraft' so I use arcana here. Concentration furthermore comes into play for constructing items as a much better synergy issue with the applicable craft check rather than spellcraft. A dwarven mage forging a mighty sword seems not to fail in has task due to inferior 'spellcraft' but rather a lack of concentration that forced his focus to slip. For spells that take a long time to cast, or items that take an extended period to create, the concentration check makes a ton more in-game sense to see what the mage can do. Even better, I have occassionally allowed an extremely high DC concentration check to give a mage without access to rest or his spell book to attempt to recover a spell that can get him out of a tight pickle. This usage gives my PCs the chance to 'break the system' for reasons consistent with the plot.
In the end, I believe that Concentration serves a ton of great role-playing use, just as Craft and Profession do. Because it is such an all-purpose skill, I endorse applying it as a class skill for all base classes. Because it is driven by Constitution, it makes our dour, severe character races (dwarves for example) much more flavorful and effective at emphasizing the personalities of their races. Similarly, the flighty races (elves for example), taking a Con penalty, have a clearer game mechanic for expressing their easily distractible natures.
This then is my bid to scrap spellcraft and put Concentration back in the game. I have been playtesting this one for three years now and have yet to see a real downside to it.
Your thoughts or experiences?
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I agree entirely that concentration (note the small "c") would be great as you've described it. The Concentration skill (note the big "C"), however, is based off of Constitution. What does your health have to do with your devotion to your god, or your ability to tune out audible distractions, or "sifting out distracting details" while tracking?
The word concentration and the skill Concentration are not really compatible in this context. I suspect that anything that the Concentration skill can be used for could use, as a substitution, your Fortitude or Will save values. They make much more sense than a health-based skill for all of the above, excellent, examples you gave. There are instances where it is a physical force that helps you push through something, but many of the situations you describe would be much better geared to Wisdom (the basis of the Will save).
As for Spellcraft... I've always thought that *it* was a highly underused skill that should be highlighted more, and could even be used by non-caster classes for identifying generic magical effects, etc - especially the rogue for disabling magical traps.
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Concentration is an abstraction. As are all the skills.
I would like to second the suggestion. I like many of the changes of Pathfinder. I won't play a game based on 3.5 that doesn't have Concentration. I think the uses above are great examples of what you can do, and I feel I've only just started to scratch the surface with it. As the only skill derived from Constitution, I think it should remain. And I think it really does involve far more 'modification' to existing material than a simple rolling together of spot and listen.
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I concur. Paizo's decision to completely enmesh Concentration with spellcasting was a big mistake, IMO. There are a slew of purposes for Concentration beyond spellcasting.
Yes, there are... but should there be? Should it be something else? A Fortitude save, perhaps? I don't know anything about psionics, which has been mentioned as using Concentration extensively (I have no use for psionics in my game), but what else uses the Concentration skill? Let's have a look at them and see if it actually makes sense, or they were simply trying to find something for Concentration to actually do.
To me, the fact that it is the ONLY skill based off of Constitution says that it's an anomaly to begin with and probably should be eliminated in favour of something that is more consistent with the rest of the rules.
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I concur. Paizo's decision to completely enmesh Concentration with spellcasting was a big mistake, IMO. There are a slew of purposes for Concentration beyond spellcasting.Yes, there are... but should there be? Should it be something else? A Fortitude save, perhaps?
No.
The skill mechanic is distinct from all others. It allows the player to choose whether to focus on it or not. A player can't really decide to be a rogue that focuses on having a good Fortitude Save. But he can choose to put ranks in Concentration. And now that the cross-class penalties are gone, that choice is actually meaningful.
Being able to choose to increase an ability means giving players power. Allowing game designers to 'tap' that resource for different options is good. Since no other skill works like Concentration in 3.5, it is a great 'hook' to hang other mechanics on. There are other skills that can be utilized for other mechanics as well, but the 'fit' is good for so many with Concentration that it is silly to remove.
Skill tricks are a good example of the type of mechanic you can 'attach' to skills. They work similar to a feat, but are based off of your skill ability.
I still think that using the word "Concentration" rather than "Perseverence" is what causes a mental disjunction for most people.
While I don't see it on the d20srd.org site, I thought I recalled something in the PHB stating that the Key Ability associated with a skill is just the one that normally governs it in most situations. i.e. If the situation warranted it, Wisdom could be used on a Concentration/Perseverence check to keep from being distracted by something annoying while Constitution could be used to handle a test of physical endurance.
EDIT: Someone else mentioned it in another thread, but "Discipline" might actually be an even better word for a Concentration/Perseverence type skill.
Yes, there are... but should there be? Should it be something else? A Fortitude save, perhaps? I don't know anything about psionics, which has been mentioned as using Concentration extensively (I have no use for psionics in my game), but what else uses the Concentration skill? Let's have a look at them and see if it actually makes sense, or they were simply trying to find something for Concentration to actually do.
The Diamond Mind martial discipline from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords uses Concentration extensively, for everything from saving throw substitutions to damage or attack rolls. It's all about mentally focusing on your attack to the exclusion of every diversion, honing your sword strikes to perfect and alarming effect. Fortitude would be a travesty for this discipline, and there isn't a single other skill in the rules that even comes close to approximating the flavor and style of Concentration as a fit.
Psionics relies upon Concentration for their Psionic Focus mechanic, a back-bone of the system. Fortitude saves would be a debilitating change over, since it'd make psions even weaker than they are now in comparison to wizards (having to regain Psionic Focus (DC 20) via a Fort save rather than Concentration check means most psions would never be able to apply metapsionic effects to their powers). Furthermore, it's a perfectly logical ability that plays up the calm and focused manner of psionics in general.
Lastly, Concentration is keyed to CON for a few reasons. As a meta-game concept, it allows CON to have a skill keyed to it (rather than being the only stat that is completely irrelevant to the skill system), it favors no spellcaster type in particular (except Incarnum users, I guess, but they don't actually have to make concentration checks...), and both of these things are very nice. Especially with Pahtfinder's choice of rolling concentration into Spellcraft and keying it off INT, the rules now favor Wizards (always have high INT) over every other caster class in the core rules (who often have little use for INT). This is a bad design. I could see a case for moving it to WIS, but that still favors some classes more than others, and Concentration is vital to each class. They should all have an equal shot at using it, without some classes naturally getting a benefit of it due to it being keyed to a primary casting stat.
In addition, CON isn't just how healthy you are. CON influences HP, which are an abstract system that also represent luck and focus and the ability to avoid damage without wearing yourself out. You could make the case that CON is a valid measure of your ability to tune out distractions, especially physical distractions, through nothing more than sheer mettle. I think it's a good fit thematically as well as meta-game-ically and mechanically.
Of course, I've been arguing this in every thread it comes up in. I'm hoping that the design team will see that most people agree that Concentration should come back, and that Spellcraft should just be rolled into the Knowledge skills.
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Skill tricks are a good example of the type of mechanic you can 'attach' to skills. They work similar to a feat, but are based off of your skill ability.
This was one concept I've been toying with for a while. One great use of Concentration would be to rush a skill check or the performance of the skill. Make two rolls. Concentration first to demonstrate that you a focused on the task at hand and the second - the check itself.
I wouldn't make Concentration an easy check, but perhaps an intermediate check (DC15). Perhaps more.
In any event, it could allow someone to pick a lock, disarm a trap, or move in stealth mode at a much faster clip.
Psionics relies upon Concentration for their Psionic Focus mechanic, a back-bone of the system.
Many people do not use psionics in their games. But for those of us that do, Concentration must be available in order for psionic focus to work IMO.
I have used Concentration extensively in games (from fantasy to sci-fi) I have played. It is an important skill, indicating one's ability to mentally concentration and focus one self to achieve a desire result of a planned action.
Though I always thought Concentration connected to CON was highly odd, as concentration is a pure mental ability. I say it should be connected to INT. So what if CON has no skills assigned to it, after all health is not a skill, it is a state of wellbeing.
Suffering pain would indeed cause incredible will power and mental strength to override pain to achieve the desire result, thus a current health status modifier could be used in Concentration checks to reflect pain. A fully healthy character would not suffer the penalty, but a character near unconsciousness would have maximum penalty applied.
Concentration having anything to do with Constitution doesn't make much sense and was only there to give constitution a meaningful skill. It's a design bandaid that doesn't work in one place but is there to balance out the schools. It's far more close to a wisdom based skill.
I do agree that a concentration type skill can be used for other things but this can easily be done in a will or fortitude save. Wrapping up concentration into spellcraft eliminates a pointless roll and still makes the spellcraft check a bit more meaty.
I'm with Dead DM and the OP, in preferring to keep Concentration and expand its usefulness. Making Con the primary stat is indeed a design "band-aid" (it makes the skill neutral for wizards, sorcerers, and clerics, for example), but that's not necessarily a reason IMO to throw it out. To beef up Spellcraft, I've rolled Knowledge (arcana) into it... but I'd almost rather see Spellcraft get used when applying metamagic somehow -- that would make sense to me, and might make metamagic cooler -- the mechanics would have to be worked out.
With regards to "Perseverence," I actually use two separate skills: Concentration (Wis) and Endurance (Con). That said, I'd almost like to try making all Fort saves an Endurance check, Will saves a Concentration check, and Ref saves an Acrobatics check... but that moves me way too far from 3.5 (and PfRPG) for my comfort level. Maybe in a skill-based (rather than level-based) system, that would work.
Has anyone taken a good look at concentration and what it can actually DO? Here's the important stuff from the SRD:
Special
You can use Concentration to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability, or use a skill defensively, so as to avoid attacks of opportunity altogether. This doesn’t apply to other actions that might provoke attacks of opportunity.
The DC of the check is 15 (plus the spell’s level, if casting a spell or using a spell-like ability defensively). If the Concentration check succeeds, you may attempt the action normally without provoking any attacks of opportunity. A successful Concentration check still doesn’t allow you to take 10 on another check if you are in a stressful situation; you must make the check normally. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails (with any appropriate ramifications), and the action is wasted, just as if your concentration had been disrupted by a distraction.
In short, you can use concentration in conjunction with nearly any other skill to avoid an attack of opportunity. We're talking swim, climb, jump, balance, ride, maybe even tumble. It has so many applications I can't understand why anyone would want to get rid of it!
Laithoron suggested using the word "Discipline" instead of the word "Concentration". This skill has previously existed, and been put to good use with the 3.X rules set. In Neverwinter Nights, Disciple was a skill that effected your chance of being knocked prone (effectively a bull rush in game terms), along with protecting against being disarmed. I can see this being implimented to include defensive skill use as Mr. Davis above me posted.
Allow me to expand:
Discipline (Con)
Discipline is a measure of how much self control you have, and your ability to maintain yourself in stressful situations.
-Every 4 ranks grants a +1 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Bonus when used in conjunction with any combat maneuver, either offensively or defensively.
-Discipline allows you to use a skill defensively. First, make a discipline check against the DC of the skill check you wish to use, and if successful, your next use of that skill does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
-A catch all skill for anything requiring continual concentration. Ranging from dealing with hecklers during a performance, or as a means of solving a particularly tedious Geas. Example: A monk violates his Lawful alignment in a way that causes him to lose his ability to advance until he atones. Because he is part of an order that focuses on pacience, he is tasked with counting every stone in a section of wall. He makes a Discipline check each day against the set DC. A failure means he is still unfocused, and needs to keep trying. A success means that he is back on the right path, and may continue his advancemt.
-A catch all skill to resist general dirty tricks played in combat. Dirt in your eye, kick to the shin. A disciplined character has a better chanceof avoiding these effects. They may substitute a Discipline Check instead of what would otherwise be the saving throw used.
-You may make a Discipline Check to oppose an Intimidate check. If you beat the Intimidate score, you are not demoralized. If you beat it by five or more, the opponent must make a check himself to resist being demoralized, using either his own discipline or a level check. This check cannot result in another demoralization. No spending the entire fight calling each other names.
Futher uses could include allowing a discipline check to maintain Focus On Target abilities (see Assassin prestige class and Raptor School tactical feat) while moving. Additionally, Discipline could grant a bonus to Diplomacy checks in hostile situations. Discipline could also be used to help a character overcome an adverse mental condition, such as an ingrained fear or an addiction.
I think it's wise to maintain Constitution as the tied ability score for a couple reasons. It allows for a skill to actually depend upon the ability score, making it that much more valuable to keep high. It also feeds on the concept of Constitution being a characters toughness. It's conceptually more appropriate for someone to be hearty and stoic than for somebody to be a weedy sickly thing, and be particularly disciplined. The skill is meant to emphasize a personal commitment to staying in control of oneself, and to not go flying off the handle. That's not to say Barbarians can't be disciplined, they just know when to take the handle, and to swing it in to somebody's face at the appropriate time.
The word concentration and the skill Concentration are not really compatible in this context. I suspect that anything that the Concentration skill can be used for could use, as a substitution, your Fortitude or Will save values. They make much more sense than a health-based skill for all of the above, excellent, examples you gave. There are instances where it is a physical force that helps you push through something, but many of the situations you describe would be much better geared to Wisdom (the basis of the Will save).
I also lament the omission of Constitution from the Pathfinder rules. Personally, I'd rather see Spellcraft rolled into Knowledge (Arcana), and keep Constitution separate.
A counter-proposal basedd on your intriguing suggestion above concerning saves: conversely replace saving throws with skill checks:
Reflex = Acrobatics
Will = Perception? Will-based Concentration?
Fortitude = hm, not sure. Con-based Concentration?
Interesting idea
Greaver Blade: I'd actually completely forgotten about the Discipline skill from NWN. In thinking about it, I like the implications it could have for all classes rather than just the spell-casters.
BTW, I just love this:
The [Discipline] skill is meant to emphasize a personal commitment to staying in control of oneself, and to not go flying off the handle. That's not to say Barbarians can't be disciplined, they just know when to take the handle, and to swing it in to somebody's face at the appropriate time.
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The word concentration and the skill Concentration are not really compatible in this context. I suspect that anything that the Concentration skill can be used for could use, as a substitution, your Fortitude or Will save values. They make much more sense than a health-based skill for all of the above, excellent, examples you gave. There are instances where it is a physical force that helps you push through something, but many of the situations you describe would be much better geared to Wisdom (the basis of the Will save).
I also lament the omission of Constitution from the Pathfinder rules. Personally, I'd rather see Spellcraft rolled into Knowledge (Arcana), and keep Constitution separate.
A counter-proposal basedd on your intriguing suggestion above concerning saves: conversely replace saving throws with skill checks:
Reflex = Acrobatics
Will = Perception? Will-based Concentration?
Fortitude = hm, not sure. Con-based Concentration?Interesting idea
It is, indeed. However, either would require some rejigging of other things. Turning Concentration checks into saves (as I suggested might be a way to go) would require adjusting the DCs of former Concentration checks (or it would be highly unlikely that they would be successful at the same rate). Doing the reverse, as a couple of people have suggested, would mean that the save values would be incredibly high (compared to standard save values) and would become an instant skill point tax as everyone would likely max out those skills that are used for the saves.
So far the only good examples of why to keep Concentration as a skill relate to Bo9S (The D&D 4e testbed) and psionics.... neither of which exist in Pathfinder, and neither of which are used by a whole lot of people I would bet. Bo9S was liked by some, but I think it generally was met with "what the hell is this?" reactions more commonly. As for psionics, there is definitely a devoted group of folks who use it regularly, but it has never really been more than an addon to the system that often just ends up breaking it anyway. Maybe without the Concentration skill being the backbone of the entire Psionics system, when it finally does get rewritten for Pathfinder (if it does) I expect they would find another way to do it that didn't require the Concentration skill.... obviously.
Everybody gets the same three saves. Not everyone should be foreced to take the same three skills. The saves are balanced by class. Skills are different. Skills go up each level, if you want them to, making a wizard no different to a thief in what they can withstand. The poor average-intelligence fighter gets to choose which save he always blows, because he can only buy two skills. His life of blacksmithing taught him nothing, because he had to learn concentration, so he could keep from failing will saves.
If you really want to push this issue, how about having a few skills add a bonus to a save. Perhaps after a successful roll, like the aid another action. Make a DC whatever acrobatics check to get +2 on a reflex save. More rolling and complexity, but you get to reward people for taking the skills you want them to have.
Of course, I've been arguing this in every thread it comes up in. I'm hoping that the design team will see that most people agree that Concentration should come back, and that Spellcraft should just be rolled into the Knowledge skills.I concur wholeheartedly!
Ditto.
Cheers
Mark
So far the only good examples of why to keep Concentration as a skill relate to Bo9S (The D&D 4e testbed) and psionics.... neither of which exist in Pathfinder, and neither of which are used by a whole lot of people I would bet. Bo9S was liked by some, but I think it generally was met with "what the hell is this?" reactions more commonly. As for psionics, there is definitely a devoted group of folks who use it regularly, but...
Psionics and B09S aside, I think there are enough applications of the Concentration skill outside of spellcasting / spellcraft. You could replace many of these with Will saves, which as you point out is probably easier than the reverse, and prefferable to me than using spellcraft checks.
My main objection to doing this is that it doesn't necessarily reflect the kind of training than can improve a person's concentration "in real life". Saving throws are a product of class, which reflects training, so that might make sense. Most classes that have Concentration as a class skill in the 3.5 SRD also have high Will saves (spellcasters, Monks, etc. but not Paladins or Rangers), which helps makes this idea more palatable.
In the end, I would prefer either option (keeping Concentration, or using Will saves instead) to using spellcraft checks for these and other applications. That feels way too artificial. My friend's homegame has rolled spellcraft into knowledge (arcana), which I must say I much prefer.
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I think I see more problems with making saves into skill checks than making Concentration into a save instead.
As for being able to choose to increase your concentration, or something along those lines as one person mentioned (as opposed to the somewhat static increase based on class/level which the save represents), there are existing feats which improve saves (and with the greater number of feats awarded to each character in PRPG this shouldn't be as silly a choice as it once was) each character can represent a concerted effort of improving concentration by taking whichever one raises your will save. Heck, make *another* feat called Concentration or Focussed Will or Hardened Mind or something that adds a further +2 (stacking with Iron Will) to it, with appropriate prerequisites.
I think that having the one, anomalous skill that is based off a stat that controls no other skill - and a stat that makes sense for less than 20% of the applications listed for the things people are using the skill for - is just bad design. 3.x D&D is a great ruleset, but there are things that don't make any sense, and thus we have PRPG.
As for changing Concentration to be based on INT or WIS, and thus advantaging one casting class over others... if there is a strong desire to keep it why not key it to the appropriate stat based on the application? Trying to do something that requires physical resistance and powering through an injury? Sure, use CON. Trying to cast a spell while in a threatened area? Use your primary casting stat. I think the skill has been horribly misused in the past and now people are trying to push those misuses into the core rules which will do no great service to PRPG.
That said... I'm OK with no Concentration skill (obviously). Let's have a look at what has been kludged into the Concentration skill and analyse that.
"You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include"...
Casting a Spell - Spellcraft
Concentrating on an Active Spell - Spellcraft
Directing a Spell - Spellcraft
Using a Spell-Like Ability - Spellcraft
or
... "using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity (such as Disable Device, Heal, Open Lock, and Use Rope, among others)."
- That could very easily be handled by assessing a modifier to the DC for trying to use such skills in a threatened area. Say -5 to use such skills when using them in a threatened area. That makes some sense... and it actually then keys it to how good you are with the actual skill. That makes some sense, doesn't it? If you have Open Lock at 5, you're going to be a lot more nervous and easily distracted away from your task than if you have Open Lock at 25. It also could be said to show your ability to *focus* on the task at hand because of your level of familiarity with what you're doing. A generic "concentration" really need not apply here.
Checking the chart of DCs under the Concentration skill from the 3.5 PHB, it's fairly easy to go down the list and determine what would be a good substitute for the Concentration skill:
Damaged during the action: (if a spell) Spellcraft 10 + damage; (if another skill, that skill at DC10 + damage or you have to stop and start over)
Continuous Damage: same as above, but half damage added (as per Concentration)
Distracted by nondamaging spell: same, but key it off of Spellcraft or the skill currently being used.
Vigorous motion: -2 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Violent Motion: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Extraordinarily Violent montion: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Entangled: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Grappling or Pinned: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used, same limitations as listed in chart for spellcasters... would also extend that to skills which require fine movements like Open Lock)
Bad Weather: -5 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
Terrible Weather: -10 to your skill check (spellcraft or skill being used)
(check the PHB for the full text of what constitutes bad or terrible weather.. those are just my terms :)
Weather caused by a spell: I'd get rid of this and maybe increase the penalty to the above two (depending on what category of weather the spell-created weather falls into).
There... it makes more sense this way (to me, anyway) as it keys the likelihood of success to your ability with the skill in question, modified by your environment.
Hm... long post. Sorry. ;)
In the case of Psionics, why not just roll that in to Psicraft? Would you rolls Psicraft in to Knowledge: Psionics as well? I guess you could...
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In the case of Psionics, why not just roll that in to Psicraft? Would you rolls Psicraft in to Knowledge: Psionics as well? I guess you could...
Is Psicraft the psionics equivalent of Spellcraft? If so... SHEESH. My absolute lack of knowledge concerning psionics is showing. That makes things so much simpler if that's what the skill is. For psionics, Spellcraft = Psicraft, and Knowledge Arcana = Knowledge Psionics. Now everything works beautifully....
Thanks Greaver Blade for pointing that out. :)
...Please don't bring back Concentration- I like the consolidation of skills present in the current Alpha compilation.
The consolidation makes it much easier for players to remember to do checks, etc since they have less numbers to hold in their heads.
Also, by having lower numbers of skills, the DM is less likely to punish roleplayers who invest in interesting skills that aren't vital.
I cannot count the number of times I created sub-par characters that never had a chance to shine because "Conan the Barabarian" and "Fireball the Mage" and "The Whirling Dervish" were fighting machines, and I spent all of my skill points on niche skills like bargaining (which is never used), craft (used even less), profession (used least of all), or on such useless things as (knowledge: dungeoneering/nature etc.-- DMs often refuse to grant insight bonuses when fighting monsters- and my compatriots already memorized the monster manuals so any "info" I gained wasn't needed).
PS: I eventually learned my lesson and stopped creating sub-par roleplaying characters... instead I became the DM, thereby bypassing the problem.
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Nevertheless, by consolidating the skills, you allow Role-Players to inventively use the skills, while still keeping them useful for power-gamers. Thus, everyone is content! :)
In the case of Psionics, why not just roll that in to Psicraft? Would you rolls Psicraft in to Knowledge: Psionics as well? I guess you could...Is Psicraft the psionics equivalent of Spellcraft? If so... SHEESH. My absolute lack of knowledge concerning psionics is showing. That makes things so much simpler if that's what the skill is. For psionics, Spellcraft = Psicraft, and Knowledge Arcana = Knowledge Psionics. Now everything works beautifully....
Thanks Greaver Blade for pointing that out. :)
Except that I *hate* psicraft (I houserule it out in my games), because there's no "religioncraft" for divine magic, but somehow there has to be a special spellcraft for psionics. Most of the Psionics afficianados from the WotC Psi boards agree that you could ditch it and not lose a thing. When I houserule rolling spellcraft into the knowledges, then, yes, Knowledge (Psionics) will identify powers just like Knowledge (Arcana) will identify arcane spells and Knowledge (Religion) identifies divine magic. But I strongly disagree with a single disparity. Either all three magical forms are different enough from each other to need a different skill to identify them, or they all should use the same skill.
*IF* I had to ditch Concentration and enforce a different skill on psionics, I'd have to say that Autohypnosis is a better choice. Still leaves me high and dry on ToB, which is an amazing book that actually gives martial characters options aside from "Charge, then full-attack until it's dead" like the core rules do. It's a shame 4.0 didn't take more cues from what worked with ToB. I might have liked it more then...
There's no religioncraft because divine magic is still magic.
I'm torn on the whole Xcraft versus knowledge. They are meant foremost as a means of identifying enemy spells being cast. How many people use that I don't know. My players generally wait until the spell resolves to figure it out from there, but I may start promoting it more with casting descriptions. There's a few reasons I see to keep them seperate from Knowledge Arcana:
One - Clerics and Druids don't have Knowledge: Arcana. Adding it to their class list for the sole purpse of identifying spells would be a waste of points, and not make a lot of sense. The skill is specifically arcana. As such, divine anything doesn't fall under that.
Two - Spellcraft is a generic term, a catchall for magical effects. Tossing Concentration in to it makes it more of a "practiced with magic" sort of spell. By dealing with magic and leveling in a magic using class, you know more about magic effects. The knowledge skills aren't meant to pertain to spells themselves. They are there for lore, a little history regarding that topic, and checks along those lines. Psicraft works along the same lines: identifying manifestations, and now, being able to control them in combat.
Three - Spellcraft is a prerquisite for a good number of prestige classes. And a some of those require both Knowledge and Spellcraft, be it arcana, religion, psionics, et cetera.
I do think the game needs some form of Concentration (which is why I made my offering in the New Rules board), but I don't think there's a need to eliminate the Xcraft abilities.
There's no religioncraft because divine magic is still magic.
Psionics is magic, too. After all, Dispel Magic and Anti-Magic Field both negate Psionics just as easily as they do a wizard's spell or a cleric's prayer. Just because they're from a different (and I shudder to use the term) "power source" doesn't make them less magical.
I'm torn on the whole Xcraft versus knowledge. They are meant foremost as a means of identifying enemy spells being cast. How many people use that I don't know. My players generally wait until the spell resolves to figure it out from there, but I may start promoting it more with casting descriptions. There's a few reasons I see to keep them seperate from Knowledge Arcana:
One - Clerics and Druids don't have Knowledge: Arcana. Adding it to their class list for the sole purpse of identifying spells would be a waste of points, and not make a lot of sense. The skill is specifically arcana. As such, divine anything doesn't fall under that.
Actually, Knowledge (Arcana) IS a cleric skill. But, I'm not advocating rolling Spellcraft wholesale into Knowledge (Arcana). I'm advocating allowing Knowledge (Arcana) to identify arcane spells as they're cast, and Knowledge (Religion) to identify divine spells. I'm not really sure why people are okay with Alpha 3's Knowledge (Arcana) being used to identify ongoing magical effects but somehow it's wrong for the skill to identify spells as they're cast.
*shrug* Whatever Jason decides on (and he seems very adamant about removing Concentration because it's only ever used for spellcasting while retaining Spellcraft, even though it's only used with spellcasting as writ...), I know how I'll be using it, and my gaming group is pretty much of the same mind.
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I'm not really sure why people are okay with Alpha 3's Knowledge (Arcana) being used to identify ongoing magical effects but somehow it's wrong for the skill to identify spells as they're cast.
To my mind, the Knowledge (x) skills are something that generally require either previous understanding and just recalling something you knew ("Oh, that symbol is of the god of traps and gory deaths. Few see it and live to tell AAAAAAauauhhhhhghghgghhgghhh....") or something you have time to actually study ("Hm... there is a strange glow to the aura, and a slight smell of bum... This is clearly Filbert's Flatulent Fairy. We should be fine, just light a candle."). Spellcraft is more of a quick internal instant understanding (like a magical perception, almost... like the former difference between Search and Spot) where your brain quickly connects the dots ("rod, cloth, ooblyoobly... lightning bolt.. duck!").
I'm not saying that's *the* answer, it's just *my* answer. :)
*shrug* Whatever Jason decides on (and he seems very adamant about removing Concentration because it's only ever used for spellcasting while retaining Spellcraft, even though it's only used with spellcasting as writ...), I know how I'll be using it, and my gaming group is pretty much of the same mind.
That's really all any of us can do - make our case for how we see the rules working best, realize that not everyone is going to agree with us, and see what makes it into the final cut. Then we house rule, just like we do with every system we play for any length of time because our own perceptions of the game or style of play are different than the designers'.
I think it's still important to have the dialogue, though, and hear reasons from both sides of an issue to ensure all repercussions have been considered and dealt with in some way - especially at the design stage. Almost every time - though it may not appear in the thread - I bet someone who reads it thinks "yah, I never thought of that before... good idea, I'll try that too". That makes the discussion worthwhile if nothing else does. :)
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Also, by having lower numbers of skills, the DM is less likely to punish roleplayers who invest in interesting skills that aren't vital.
I cannot count the number of times I created sub-par characters that never had a chance to shine because "Conan the Barabarian" and "Fireball the Mage" and "The Whirling Dervish" were fighting machines, and I spent all of my skill points on niche skills like bargaining (which is never used), craft (used even less), profession (used least of all), or on such useless things as (knowledge: dungeoneering/nature etc.-- DMs often refuse to grant insight bonuses when fighting monsters- and my compatriots already memorized the monster manuals so any "info" I gained wasn't needed).
Wow...I've never even considered "punishing" a character with a suboptimal build. In fact, as a DM I often cater to some of their quirks just because it's more fun than another "Conan the Barbarian" or "Whirling Dervish" type. Niche skills are what separates the men from the boys (or in this case, the 3.5 skill set from the 4.0 skill set). Furthermore, in my games some of our most commonly rolled skills are knowledge skills, bluff checks, diplomacy checks, and a lot of the "non-combat" stuff. As for insight bonuses, that's outside the realm of what I'd even consider as a DM. Knowledge skills do not grant additional bonuses when fighting critters (but they can grant information about how to bypass critters or to come up with creative solutions based on knowledge of their ecology or personalities). I leave that to the players though.
Please, please, please bring back concentration. We've already house-ruled it back into place with our current Pathfinder campaign and bundled spellcraft into the appropriate Knowledge skill. It thematically makes more sense and frankly I just can't reconcile turning concentration from a CON check (non-dump stat for any spellcaster) to an INT check (dump stat for druids and clerics).
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Please, please, please bring back concentration. We've already house-ruled it back into place with our current Pathfinder campaign and bundled spellcraft into the appropriate Knowledge skill. It thematically makes more sense and frankly I just can't reconcile turning concentration from a CON check (non-dump stat for any spellcaster) to an INT check (dump stat for druids and clerics).
As I've suggested before, I think it would be perfectly valid to base Spellcraft off of your casting stat (CHA for sorcerers, WIS for clerics, etc). After all, it's supposed to be a genuine understanding of how *your* magic works, right?
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As I've suggested before, I think it would be perfectly valid to base Spellcraft off of your casting stat (CHA for sorcerers, WIS for clerics, etc). After all, it's supposed to be a genuine understanding of how *your* magic works, right?
Wrong.
Spellcraft is about how ALL magic works. Look at the definition and the uses for the skill. It's used for potion identification and identification of any spell being cast for counterspelling purposes. Furthermore, even if it were about how your spellcasting worked, I again can't reconcile the idea that a 3 intelligence cleric somehow knows everything about the magic being cast around him/her because he has a wisdom of 20, or worse off, that 3 intelligence favored soul somehow can determine how magic works because his charisma is 18. For some classes their magic is about force of will, not knowledge; spellcraft is a knowledge based skill in the end.
It may be easy to bundle it, but it certainly isn't correct.
To my mind, the Knowledge (x) skills are something that generally require either previous understanding and just recalling something you knew ("Oh, that symbol is of the god of traps and gory deaths. Few see it and live to tell AAAAAAauauhhhhhghghgghhgghhh....") or something you have time to actually study ("Hm... there is a strange glow to the aura, and a slight smell of bum... This is clearly Filbert's Flatulent Fairy. We should be fine, just light a candle."). Spellcraft is more of a quick internal instant understanding (like a magical perception, almost... like the former difference between Search and Spot) where your brain quickly connects the dots ("rod, cloth, ooblyoobly... lightning bolt.. duck!").
I'm not saying that's *the* answer, it's just *my* answer. :)
Except that it's pretty obvious that, IRL, you *do* use knowledges on the fly. Otherwise, Jeopardy players and Quizbowlers must have some sort of "Triviacraft" skill that is entirely separate from their actual knowledge of history, geography, local, nobility & royalty, religion, etc. Knowledges represent what you know, whether you've got the time to look it up in a book or you just remember having read that incantation, those hand signals, and those material components in a book a long time ago and those clues jog your brain that the wizard is, in fact, casting a fireball or not. I don't see why Spellcraft even is somehow an independent skill in some ways - you can identify a spell as it's being cast, even if you have 0 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) and therefore know almost nothing about arcane magic? How does that really work.
I know that Spellcraft is often ignored by my players. Just Sunday night, I mentioned on more than one occasion that the players could make a Spellcraft check to identify a spell-like ability being cast by a warlock, and the wizard just shrugged and opted not to. The only other interactions with the skill I've see are the "I'll put one point in this, so that I can use it if I feel like it," and "I'll put the requisite ranks in this so that I can take this PrC and then not bother with it again," approaches, unless the PC was a Wizard who needed it for learning spells.
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Removing concentration kinda stretches backwards compatibility with certain closed content products (most notably the Tome of Battle). My wife's character has some swordsage levels in our current game, and I must admit it's a bit odd for her to have spellcraft in order to concentrate on her Diamond Mind maneuvers. I'm sure there are other examples, too, and yes, I know I've said that balancing PRPG rules against material Paizo can't touch is a needless thing to do in the past, but I think Concentration is up there with Sense Motive. It really does need to be its own skill.
i have never had concentration used for anything else other than magic or prionics in my games. but hey. thats just my games.
I've seen this argument before, from Jason as well as a few other posters. So, please, if Concentration's sin is that it's use is pretty much married to spellcasting in some form or other, and therefore should be removed, WHY is Spellcraft, which is *intrinsically* tied to spellcasting and is never used aside from that, also not removed? Why is it okay for Spellcasting to be only used for magic while Concentration only being used for magic a bad thing?
Personally, I've seen Concentration used for other things (mostly ToB, but that's still more than I've seen Spellcraft used for), and it has rules built into it for additional uses, even if they are often overlooked. I think if we're going to eliminate a skill because it's too focused on one thing (in the interest of keeping skills with multiple facets), then Concentration is definitely in a stronger standing for non-casting utility than Spellcraft.
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i have never had concentration used for anything else other than magic or prionics in my games. but hey. thats just my games.
I've seen this argument before, from Jason as well as a few other posters. So, please, if Concentration's sin is that it's use is pretty much married to spellcasting in some form or other, and therefore should be removed, WHY is Spellcraft, which is *intrinsically* tied to spellcasting and is never used aside from that, also not removed? Why is it okay for Spellcasting to be only used for magic while Concentration only being used for magic a bad thing?
Personally, I've seen Concentration used for other things (mostly ToB, but that's still more than I've seen Spellcraft used for), and it has rules built into it for additional uses, even if they are often overlooked. I think if we're going to eliminate a skill because it's too focused on one thing (in the interest of keeping skills with multiple facets), then Concentration is definitely in a stronger standing for non-casting utility than Spellcraft.
I think the problem was having *two* skills that appeared to be only about spellcasting. If you're going to have one skill that is all about spellcasting, doesn't the name Spellcraft make a lot more sense than Concentration?
As for Tome of Battle... it's a very controversial book, to be sure. It was Rich Baker's little experiment to see how the power sources for fighters would work in 4e. That some of the things use Concentration doesn't mean it's right.
As has been pointed out before most of the purported non-spellcasting uses of Concentration probably *shouldn't* be Concentration as they have nothing whatsoever to do with your Constitution score.
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As I've suggested before, I think it would be perfectly valid to base Spellcraft off of your casting stat (CHA for sorcerers, WIS for clerics, etc). After all, it's supposed to be a genuine understanding of how *your* magic works, right?
Wrong.
Oooo... failed Diplomacy check.
Spellcraft is about how ALL magic works. Look at the definition and the uses for the skill. It's used for potion identification and identification of any spell being cast for counterspelling purposes. Furthermore, even if it were about how your spellcasting worked, I again can't reconcile the idea that a 3 intelligence cleric somehow knows everything about the magic being cast around him/her because he has a wisdom of 20, or worse off, that 3 intelligence favored soul somehow can determine how magic works because his charisma is 18. For some classes their magic is about force of will, not knowledge; spellcraft is a knowledge based skill in the end.
That's a good point. Leave it INT and let the other classes suffer, then. I was just trying to make it something that DID work based off of your own understanding of how magic worked, rather than some specific, universal, absolute set of magic rules that covered natural magic, religious magic, arcane magic, inborn magic, and every other kind of magic there is. I guess it comes down to whether you actually think that there is only one way to understand the magic, or if there are multiple ways to understand it (whether it's all unified in the back end or not).
It may be easy to bundle it, but it certainly isn't correct.
Have you been reading the thread about the proposed Discipline skill? If not, you should. That line would fit perfectly in that discussion. :)
It may be easy to bundle it, but it certainly isn't correct.Have you been reading the thread about the proposed Discipline skill? If not, you should. That line would fit perfectly in that discussion. :)
Aww c'mon, play nice with us Discipline advocates! :)
As for Tome of Battle... it's a very controversial book, to be sure. It was Rich Baker's little experiment to see how the power sources for fighters would work in 4e. That some of the things use Concentration doesn't mean it's right.
I was under the impression that it was a source of inspiration for 4.0, but not exactly just an open play-test for it. But, that said, of course it's controversial. It gave melee types nice, shiny things to do. No one wants the warriors to feel important at the end game. Why should they do anything other than sit around and watch the casters be all flashy and awesome?
Just because it's controversial doesn't make it broken. And just because it's controversial doesn't make being backwards compatible with it any less of a design goal. Psionics is controversial. Incarnum is controversial. Pact Magic is controversial. Complete Adventurer is controversial. Clerics are controversial. The trick is making sure the product is still compatible with the 3.5 library with minimal fuss. For the most part, this is achievable as it stands, even with skill consolidation. But Concentration is a skill that is used with non-PHB classes and mechanics. Having to reintroduce it just to use ToB (and the XPH as writ) is ridiculous. I can't, for the life of me, even figure what a better skill for Diamond Mind would be (except for, *maybe* Autohypnosis, which still has a very different feel to it).
Concentration as a skill has, I think, been seriously underutilized. When I started 3.5 as a DM, I didn't see the point of it. Then I read Quintessential Monk and started thinking about Concentration as a skill for flavoring in-game situations. Ultimately, I ended up realizing that it has a great application for each class. Here are my thoughts, harvested from playing 3.5 as a DM for the last several years (and as a veteran of Basic D&D and AD&D too, a grognard for sure):
Concentration should be a class skill for each base class. It is the only skill to use Constitution and thus provides a necessary additional reason not to treat it as a dump stat (HP bonus and Fort Saves are both good but why not feed it with a skill support too?) All classes have Craft as a class skill, some have Perform, and many have Profession. All of which seem logical to enjoy a synergy bonus from Concentration and would cement a PCs decision to develop a trade for in-character reasons. Why not roll a Concentration check rather than arbitrarily rule that the character is too distracted to 'take 10' or 'take 20'? A roll is always better than a ruling, from the gameplay perspective and it contributes to the idea that a PCs heroic focus can freeze time and achieve impossible things...
I'm with you on this one too. Quintessential Monk opened my eyes to the possibilities this skill still has. Add my voice to the chorus to bring it back!
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>>Wow...I've never even considered "punishing" a character with a suboptimal build. In fact, as a DM I often cater to some of their quirks just because it's more fun than another "Conan the Barbarian" or "Whirling Dervish" type. Niche skills are what separates the men from the boys (or in this case, the 3.5 skill set from the 4.0 skill set). Furthermore, in my games some of our most commonly rolled skills are knowledge skills, bluff checks, diplomacy checks, and a lot of the "non-combat" stuff. As for insight bonuses, that's outside the realm of what I'd even consider as a DM. Knowledge skills do not grant additional bonuses when fighting critters (but they can grant information about how to bypass critters or to come up with creative solutions based on knowledge of their ecology or personalities). I leave that to the players though.
Ah, in that case I would have to say I would very much enjoy playing in your games. In self defense of my unique playstyle, I converted to mostly DM-duties. However, in my opinion, it's rare to find a DM who can make sense of the dizzying array of statistics that her characters might have ; so it would be much simpler to condense the skill table to alleviate some of the DM-pressures.
As for the insight bonuses, they were mostly a suggestion on my part to make the knowledge skills more useful-- since regrettably, the people I play with have excellent knowledge of the monsters in the monster manual and already know all the weaknesses and other metagame information. It was mostly a suggestion to counter the problem whereby my partners were doing average damages of 20-30 and I could only do a maximum damage of 10-20. (Apologies, but I cannot remember the correct calculations.)
The important thing to take away from this post is that insight bonuses might be an interesting idea to add as a bonus for certain knowledge checks on monsters or other items- if a character rolls a natural 20, or receives a total result of 35+.
Removing concentration kinda stretches backwards compatibility with certain closed content products (most notably the Tome of Battle). My wife's character has some swordsage levels in our current game, and I must admit it's a bit odd for her to have spellcraft in order to concentrate on her Diamond Mind maneuvers. ...
Exactly. Concentration has applications far beyond spellcasting. It makes little sense to roll it into "Spellcraft", which is only relevant to spellcasting. Some games may use Concentration primarily for spellcasting, but it has much broader potential role-playing and flavor applications.
If you need to roll skills together, this is why I say Concentration should be on it's own, and roll Spellcraft into Knowledge (Arcane) or something similar. In the original SRD, Spellcraft was only useful for identifying things, which seems like an equally good use of Knowledge skills.
That's how I intend to play regardless of what Pathfinder includes in the final release. Pathfinder has done an excellent job of demonstrating the benefits of streamlining the skill system, but some of these choices may just come down to personal preference.
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If you need to roll skills together, this is why I say Concentration should be on it's own, and roll Spellcraft into Knowledge (Arcane) or something similar. In the original SRD, Spellcraft was only useful for identifying things, which seems like an equally good use of Knowledge skills.
That's how I intend to play regardless of what Pathfinder includes in the final release. Pathfinder has done an excellent job of demonstrating the benefits of streamlining the skill system, but some of these choices may just come down to personal preference.
Quoted as that's how I feel with one Caveat. I'm rolling Autohypnmosis into Concentration as well. It will make it more attractive to monk/mystic types
Sweet! the topic is still alive, ...just in a seperate thread.
Please see my suggestion here for replacing Concentration as a skill without rolling it into Spellcraft.
Quoted as that's how I feel with one Caveat. I'm rolling Autohypnmosis into Concentration as well. It will make it more attractive to monk/mystic typesIf you need to roll skills together, this is why I say Concentration should be on it's own, and roll Spellcraft into Knowledge (Arcane) or something similar. In the original SRD, Spellcraft was only useful for identifying things, which seems like an equally good use of Knowledge skills.
I also agree with combining Autohypnosis into Concentration :D