So obviously, the 3.75 rebalancing has increased the power in several of the core classes. I'm wondering if there will be any guidelines that discuss updating other non-core base classes and PrC's to 3.75 standards. I looked it over in Alpha 3, and don't really see anything, though there is discussion of updating monsters and NPCs.
My concern here relates, obviously, to compatability. Players using or dipping into non SRD classes can end up severely hampered, reducing the likelyhood that groups will want to adopt the changes. I've scanned the boards, and haven't really seen this issue addressed. Any thoughts, or have I just missed the discussion?
|
The core classes needed a boost/update. (except for the wizard, but I still like the Alpha Wiz.) I think most of the PrC's and non-core classes are alright as is.
The only real conversion I would think is to match the class HD to the BAB from Alpha. d6 for low BAB, d8 for medium BAB, and d10 for high BAB. The skills conversion should be pretty simple.
The core classes needed a boost/update. (except for the wizard, but I still like the Alpha Wiz.) I think most of the PrC's and non-core classes are alright as is.
The only real conversion I would think is to match the class HD to the BAB from Alpha. d6 for low BAB, d8 for medium BAB, and d10 for high BAB. The skills conversion should be pretty simple.
Right on there. and oth level spells. The non core classes as a whole are more powerful then core so need no fixing.
So obviously, the 3.75 rebalancing has increased the power in several of the core classes.
As Fray mentioned, generally the non-core classes are considered to be more powerful than the 3.5 core classes (some would say brokenly so). However I just wish to take care to point out that the power increase for many of the classes has been quite modest, with some changes coming at the expense of others.
In reverse order, my opinions:
Wizards: Loss of a bonus spell for school powers - essentially neutral.
Sorcerers: Pure power gain, but most doesn't "stack" with their prime capabilities. Some does of course.
Rogues: Was pretty strong, got a good bit of off-main boost. Seems very strong to me, but I haven't given it a good playtest.
Rangers: To hit bonuses vs. favored enemies, strong but limited. A few more feats but in the later levels.
Paladins: A number of new abilities, but several are powered by other and more limited resources. Lay on Hands *heavily* weakened as a "heal me to full at once" ability.
Monks: Versaility and choices up - Power mostly neutral.
Fighters: Powered up, most think they needed it (myself excluded).
Druid: Not much change on the power front - heavy weakening on the "let's bend the rules to break the game" front, but that's not the topic.
Cleric: Lost domain spells, gained domain abilities - essentially neutral.
Bard: Boosted, but only minorly. New Bardic Knowledge more useable, but less broken than the old.
Barbarian: Versatility and choices up - minor Power boost.
All that said, some early PrC's maybe could use minor boosts. I never paid much attention to those outside the DMG so I can't really say. Likely Paizo will tackle the ones *in* the DMG (I'm looking at you Arcane Archer and Horizon Walker).
As for non-core Base classes - one could reformulate them a bit to match the new class thinking, as far as things similar to domains, schools, and "per day" effects coming from a common pool, and "[insert here] Bond" abilities. I don't think a single one needs a power boost though.
Actually, in terms of clerics, I'd say there's been a reduction in power. They've lost out on a spell per level (if you don't count the loss of the domain spell and domain powers, which is balanced out by the new domain power tree). Energy channeling is very nice, but using it reduces the number of times you can use divine feats (one of the big overpowering aspects of clerics according to many). Druids lose a spell per spell level as well.
Actually, in terms of clerics, I'd say there's been a reduction in power. They've lost out on a spell per level (if you don't count the loss of the domain spell and domain powers, which is balanced out by the new domain power tree). Energy channeling is very nice, but using it reduces the number of times you can use divine feats (one of the big overpowering aspects of clerics according to many). Druids lose a spell per spell level as well.
... This is really not very accurate.
Clerics and Druids "lose" a 0th level spell at 4th level (pretty much made up for by *at will* 0th level spells), and at 7th level.
They also lose:
A 1st level spell at 11th level.
A 2nd level spell at 13th level.
A 3rd level spell at 15th level.
A 4th level spell at 17th level.
A 5th level spell at 19th level.
That is really quite minimal - typically a spell level 5 below their highest at the time.
Not to say those spells are useless (far from it), but saying they lose a spell per spell level sounds like they are losing it when they acquire the spell level, not 10 levels later.
So obviously, the 3.75 rebalancing has increased the power in several of the core classes.Are those non-core base classes and Prestige classes open-content?
No to the ones from WotC, AFAIK.
I think most of them would work as written, but there are a few (Swashbuckler and Spellthief come to mind) who weren't that powerfull to begin with... but, as things are, there's no way Paizo could change this in an official product. GMs, who allow those, have to do a little homework, IMO.
(Spellthief is simple. Just give him access to rogue talents every 2,3 or 4 levels...)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
*puts on his non-core hat*
Off the top of my head.
PHB II classes:
Leave alone
Complete Adventurer:
*The trio gain the most benefit from skill consolidation. With Balance/Tumble in athletics, Disable device/Open Lock in disable device and Spot/Listen and (grumble) search in perception you get seven 'trademark' skills for 3 points.
Complete Arcane:
First off I need to state that they can only change what is OGL and can be found in the SRD. Now things like the Ninja, they can make their own, but it would have to be different enough to not be thought of a copy.
As for classes that would need working, only one early one really needed re-working, more so than the ninja, and that was the Hexblade which even the lead game designer says it was underpowered. I can quote and link it if you need to see for yourself.
First off I need to state that they can only change what is OGL and can be found in the SRD. Now things like the Ninja, they can make their own, but it would have to be different enough to not be thought of a copy.
Plus, when it comes to the Ninja there are likely dozens of OGL sources to choose from for a Ninja class if Paizo doesn't want to start from scratch. I seem to remember that there was a Ninja class in Player's Advantage: Rogue by Mystic Eye Games. Paizo could use that one for Pathfinder as long as it is fully OGL.
*puts on his non-core hat*
Off the top of my head.
PHB II classes:
Leave aloneComplete Adventurer:
Ninja, no changes. If you're feeling more energetic, maybe design a ki pool to fuel the ninja abilities.
Scout, add rogue talents to their bonus feat list.
Spell Thief, add cantrips, with limited castings per day. Increase spells known and per day.
*The trio gain the most benefit from skill consolidation. With Balance/Tumble in athletics, Disable device/Open Lock in disable device and Spot/Listen and (grumble) search in perception you get seven 'trademark' skills for 3 points.Complete Arcane:
Warlock, goes to d8. Maybe allow a sorcerer legacy?
Warmage, Dunno, maybe allow Evocation speciality powers?
Wu jen, goes to d6. I'd guess pick an element and give the wu jen either a specialist tree like ability, or maybe a domain?
Ninja: change sudden strike to sneak attack. d8 HD.
Scout: no changes at all. These guys were already outclassing the rogue in a big way.Spellthief: unlimited per day cantrips like all other casters who have them. d8 HD.
Warlock: no legacies. These guys are very powerful as it is.
Warmage: ditto. Already very powerful. Already at d6 HD. Already have a bonus feat progression and other goodies.
Wu Jen: yes to HD upgrade of course. Elemental specialist trees would put them on par with wizards.
Hexblade can be fixed by giving them more bonus feats (including the ones from Dragon magazine) and a slightly tweaked spell list. Since they can have familiars they should also have the Arcane Bond option of bonding an item instead - like a magic sword. That would really make them cool and flavorful.
First off I need to state that they can only change what is OGL and can be found in the SRD. Now things like the Ninja, they can make their own, but it would have to be different enough to not be thought of a copy.
As for classes that would need working, only one early one really needed re-working, more so than the ninja, and that was the Hexblade which even the lead game designer says it was underpowered. I can quote and link it if you need to see for yourself.
I'm not talking about actually listing changes to be made for non OGL material. I'm talking about general guidelines for updating other base classes. I disagree with statements made that most other classes are fine and balanced. There's been a big shift in non-spellcasting classes (or non-primary-spellcasting classes if you want to lump in the bard), and I think that balance factors need to be addressed. Previous base classes such as the warlock and spellthief, already considered marginally-valuable classes, will be even more sidelined, and I'm just thinking that Paizo should come up with some general guidelines to address different class phenotypes.
My group has finished first Pathfinder adventure, and is about to start 2nd chapter, "The Skinsaw Murders." In a burst of ill-timed enthusiasm, fueled by a resentment for WotC and their cremation of my favored pasttime, I announced to my players that we'd be converting to Pathfinder RPG. So, I have a couple questions...
We have a warlock in the group... what changes, if any? I noticed the Hit Die increase already...
Am I correct in noticing that sorcerer's don't get familiars anymore? What should I do if my sorcerer already has one? A joint-separation or divorce citing irreconcilable differences with a 50% treasure split under California law?
Where do divine feats from the Complete Champion go, the ones based on domain? And I guess Able Learner just became obsolete... oh wait, sorry, this is a thread on classes. I'll post those feat questions elsewhere. Anyway, if you can answer the top two questions, I'd be much obliged.