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Inventive players find ways to develop a winning tactic that will overwhelm the opponents again and again. As much as they are a tribute to the player's intelligence, some of these tactics (the cheesy ones) may lead to abuse and turn challenging encounters into walks in the metaphorical park.
GMs deal with the cheesy tactics in two ways:
1. Apply Rule 0 and remove/modify the rules which allow the tactic.
2. Customize encounters to specifically counter the winning tactic.
However, rule 0 may lead to arguments, whereas customized encounters may strain believability.
The 3rd method is in the game designers' hands: reduce the benefits of using cheesy tactics in the core rules.
Obviously, it is impossible to plug all the holes. However, I believe that PF is going in the right direction and I hope that the Alpha and Beta playtesters' contributions will be taken into account as well.
I'd like this thread to point to other Alpha 3 threads and other resources which deal with the tweaks that reduce the cheesy tactics .
Please use this thread to post the relevant links and a brief explanation of the cheese-preventing tweak.
Please refrain from discussing the suggestions in this thread. This can and should be done in the tweak's thread.
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SNEAK ATTACK minor tweak proposition
Objective
Reduce the sneak attack damage rolled when a rogue manages to land several sneak attacks in a single round.
Description
Tweak - Attack variant
[...]This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. For every attack beyond the first made against the same target in a single round of combat on the rogue's turn, the damage is reduced by 1d6 to a minimum of 1d6.
Tweak - Hit variant
[...]This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. For every successful sneak attack beyond the first made against the same target in a single round of combat on the rogue's turn, the damage is reduced by 1d6 to a minimum of 1d6.
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[Tweak] No AoOs with Spiked Chain
Objective
Reduce the power of the spiked chain fighter build.
Description
The spiked chain is treated as a melee weapon, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.
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Apparently in one of the Oriental Adventures products, there is a prestige class that allows a full attack whenever the PC uses any teleportation effect. This has been a key part of many of the "Nightcrawler" builds on optimization boards. I would add the once-per-round limitation to this, because currently it is possible to trigger as an immediate action, a swift action, and a move action.
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GMs deal with the cheesy tactics in two ways:
1. Apply Rule 0 and remove/modify the rules which allow the tactic.
2. Customize encounters to specifically counter the winning tactic.However, rule 0 may lead to arguments, whereas customized encounters may strain believability.
You forgot to add my favorite: Monsters and NPCs can use the same tactics against the PCs. And there tends to be more of them.
The trouble is that you can't do that every encounter, but the players can.
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The trouble is that you can't do that every encounter, but the players can.
Sure you can... show them how boring / repetitive / dull their tactics are... then they might change their minds about it.
If my players abuse something, they know if will comeback at them...I don't see how the game designers can make an 'anti-cheese' game... they don't have the time and energy to think of all the combos from all the books, let alone what books/tactics are allowed in every game.
I say leave the 'anti-cheese' to the GM and fellow players.
Not to mention that the so-called cheese tactics mentioned so far aren't exactly crazy overpowered when put to actual use.
I think there may have been some misinterpretation of the rules making the Spiked Chain far more useful than it really was. Going by the OOTS comic that is held up as the reason for the change, the rules simply don't allow this kind of thing already in 3.5e... let alone the toned down Combat Maneuvers of Pathfinder.
Regarding Sneak Attack damage, it's basically just a non-casters way of doing large amounts of damage.
In a couple sessions ago.. we were able to set up a situation where the party Rogue could get into position and do 80 damage with one attack. This was with greataxe weapon that crit'd, along with all his sneak attack damage... also, it was an artifact that he was using (fiery burst, +5 weapon, etc).
Conversely, the wizard of the group did 92 damage previously in the round with one spell against the same target. This didn't require rolling a 20 (5% chance), nor did it require any positioning or risking of damage from the target (a Cloud Giant), in fact he was flying in the air just over 100' away.
The next round he was able to toss a chain lightning at another group of creatures, doing somewhere in excess of 150 or probably more damage spread across a dozen targets. The Rogue had to run to another spot and take a swipe that missed.
Honestly, I can't see how Sneak Attack is broken in any way when actually faced against the potential of other players in the group.
Other than the fact that the Fighter really needs something to make him shine like that.
My current Fighter can take quite a beating (even better once I upgrade his armor capability), and when stacked up can do things like stop massive creatures in their tracks and land 75% of their multiple attacks, doing just enough damage to feel useful if they have the right powered up weapons.
It would be nice if the Fighter could do more with combat control without NEEDING the Spiked Chain and Enlarge. If anything more weapons and combat maneuvers could use being powered up.