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While demonstrating D&D 4E at my FLGS, I encountered several newbs who have never played any edition of D&D. They enjoyed the demos and plan to start their own campaigns.
I compared the powers system to that of Magic: the Gathering. Further, while I've never played MMOs, I likened the D&D Healing Surges to the life bars found in such games.
I foresee that there will be DMs and players who have never played D&D 3.x by the time of Pathfinder's (PfRPG) 2009 release. If I demo PfRPG, what elements between the two shall I highlight so they understand the similarities/differences between the two systems? I'm especially concerned when they play PfRPG 1st level characters.
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Things that I would highlight about PFRPG vs 4E? You've got a great resource on these boards. Go peruse everyone that's choosing PFRPG vs. 4E and have posted about it.
Some things I would highlight:
Flexibility of Character creation and advancement
Multiple Classes/Prestige Classes
More Flexible Magic System
Progressive Combat System with lots of options available
Ability to play without a battlemat
Outstanding Adventure Path's available
A huge library of compatible sourcebooks (probably cheap)
PF Society
These are just what I thought of in a few minutes. There's lots more. I'm sure a few more people might respond. :)
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Organize PF RPG games and invite people to join. I really don't see a need to highlight the differences. I don't expect beginners to care about the things that got our panties in a twist when we opened the 4th Ed. manuals. If the game is fun and they can start to figure out the basics after the first 30 minutes, that's all that matters.
<quotable>If you run it, they will come. If they like it, they will come back.</quotable>
Dubious and mangled quotes aside, I'd love the Pathfinder Society to have teams (like PP's Press Gangers) who would run 60 minute quick and dirty demos.
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For me, as a big story-based gamer the diferences are striking.
In Paizo's 3E version the Races, Classes, Prestige Classes, Alignments and just about every other character decision lends itself to the possiblity of story development and narrative.
The WotC game sacrifices the depth and complexity of character generation to make it more of a tactical war-game. And thus spoils most chances of storytelling.
What would you rather play, a good storytelling game with infinite creative possibilities or a table-top tactical war-game?
-W. E. Ray
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What would you rather play, a good storytelling game with infinite creative possibilities or a table-top tactical war-game?-W. E. Ray
I've learned a long time ago that system plays little role in role-playing . I played in a 4E game that the first 2 1/2 hours was straight role-playing, and it felt no different than when I've role-played in 3.x, Champions, etc.
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In Paizo's 3E version the Races, Classes, Prestige Classes, Alignments and just about every other character decision lends itself to the possiblity of story development and narrative.
You DID read the 4E Players Handbook, right? There are several pages that discuss developing a PC's personality, history, etc. before game mechanics.
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Seriously though,
It's a hot, dry day in a tiny village just out of reach of the Keep in the Borderlands. A handful of peasant farmers are going about their daily routine, tilling dusty, clay-like fields hoping for rain.
Meanwhile, 100 or so yards out of the village proper 4 teenagers are hiding from their farmer-parents and chores, splashing in the water-hole.
Then hordes of orcs and ogres charge down to the village to begin slaughtering the women, raping the men and burning the village. The peasants grab some pitch forks, wood-chopping axes and the farming polearm to try to fight off the raiders but it all seems hopeless.
The teenagers frantically put their clothes back on and begin to charge to their families and home. But arrive too late. They grab a few weapons from the bodies of orcs and try to fight, only to flee from overwhelming numbers all too soon. Hiding in the hills minutes later, bruised and bloody they vow to follow the raiders and seek revenge.
The 4 teenagers, peasant farmers yesterday, angry adventurers today, follow the raiders deep in the wilderness to their cavern stronghold. Once inside they go area by area, quietly killing as they go. As one fight gets particularly messy one of the teenagers gets slashed across the back, blood spewing everywhere. Another has her leg smashed and is bleeding from a head wound.
Then, one of the teens swings the sword he took from an orc only hours earlier and screems
HEALING SURGE ACTIVATE! and all four teens' wounds are healed.
The end.
-W. E. Ray
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I really don't see a need to highlight the differences. I don't expect beginners to care about the things that got our panties in a twist when we opened the 4th Ed. manuals.
Newbie as they start play with PfRPG:
"What do you mean movement is 1-2-1?""What's 'Neutral Good'?"
"6 hit points? That it?!?"
"All I have is a basic melee attack with my dwarven fighter?"
"Where's my action point?"
"How come all my wizard's spells are like Daily Powers?"
"You call that an Acid Arrow?"
"What do you mean what's the Saving Throw DC of my Charm spell?"
"I'll use Second Wind and...I have to wait for a cleric to heal me?"
"Wait. Can you go over the steps again on grapple? I have an Opportunity Attack...er...Attack of Opportunity, subtract four from my Combat Man...what's it called again?"
1. Barbarian*
2. Druid*
3. Monk*
4. Sorcerer*
5. Half-Orc*
6. Gnome*
7. All the people that wrote the best D&D adventures work for Paizo. :)
*At no extra charge. ;)
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Newbie as they start play with PfRPG:
"What do you mean movement is 1-2-1?"
"What's 'Neutral Good'?"
"6 hit points? That it?!?"
"All I have is a basic melee attack with my dwarven fighter?"
"Where's my action point?"[...]
I'm sorry, I read your post too quickly. I understood that the newbies in your example had no experience with 4th Ed. or other gaming systems.
If they've been playing 4th Ed. for a year when PF RPG is out, I see that they would be looking for the concepts with which they are familiar when trying another game system.
However, if they are happy with their current game, if they like the power level and the abilities and the hitpoints and the acid arrows, why would you spoil their fun and try to sell them another game?
I'll run 3.5 and PF RPG games and hope that people will enjoy them. I trust they will be aware that different game systems handle similar tasks in different manners.
Joela raises a very valid issue over how we Pathfinder RPG fans can best ensure that the type of table-top RPG experience we've grown to love does not fade into obsolescence.
However, it is necessary to resist the 4E-hate reflex that we've developed...
D&D has always been a hobby that the majority of players seem predestined to have loved before they ever started playing. It has also been a hobby that is largely spread by word of mouth, to which new players are introduced by existing players.
The challenge we are now facing, though is that word-of-mouth must compete with "teh intarwebs"...
Several major "gamer" web comics have in the last week had comics about D&D and 4th Ed: Penny Arcade, PvP & Ctrl+Alt+Del being ones that I've personally seen. The PvP and Penny Arcade story arc is a positive one (they are collaborating with WotC) and paints D&D as fun and exciting. As the artists of those comics admit, prior to this, they had never played D&D before and found it really exciting.
On the flip-side, Ctrl+Alt+Del's was of a very different nature. It instead focused on the negative 4E-hate that a lot of people seem inclined to spew before anyone can get a word in edgewise. Now the author of that comic has never played D&D either, yet as an outsider looking in, he had the following observation:
link to comicMy opinion here is one as a complete outsider, never having played a game of D&D in my life, but I've been poking around some 4th Edition stuff recently, and I see a lot of people complaining. And while I may not be familiar with D&D, I am familiar with people whining due to change.
My points would basically be this: It's not like all your 3rd Edition books are going to burst into flame with the release of 4th Edition, right? So if you really hate 4thEd that much, so what? Just keep playing your 3rd Edition, and let the rest of the world move forward.
Now then, anyone here could explain to him why it is we are "legitimately upset". The best analogy I can think is Windows XP vs. Windows Vista. MS is doing their best to force Vista and this month will require all OEMs to use Vista and not XP (last I heard). Without new XP CDs and licenses, XP cannot reasonably perpetuate itself anymore than D&D 3.5 could without new rulebooks for new players to buy (luck for us that we've got Paizo and the OGL).
However, trying to point that out is kind of irrelevant.
Why?
Because a first impression has already been made. The 3E advocates came across as being trolls and raining Kill Joy all over someone's newly discovered toy.
Put Yourself in the following situation:
You are someone who just got a cool new gift that You are all excited over. Your big brother or some surly older person then comes in and starts ridiculing this thing You think is so cool for reasons too numerous and esoteric for You to appreciate just yet. In all likelihood, You'd think they are either a jerk, jealous or worse. At any rate, You wouldn't be particularly inclined to care too much about what they have to say when they just tried to rain on Your parade.
INSTEAD, consider an alternate situation:
You are excited over Your cool new gift and the big brother figure comes in. They notice that even though You are playing with a stripped-down, simplified version of a more advanced toy, that You have a similar passion. Rather than ridiculing You and Your new toy, they say, "Wow, that's pretty cool, if You like that then boy do I have something to show You..." Curiosity it stoked and instead of a wall being built, a bond of shared excitement is formed.
More than any comparisons we can make between the editions... more than how many ways we can come up with to validate our dissatisfaction... it is the WAY in which we go about advocating PRPG that matters the most.
As a wise-woman You called Mom once said, "You catch more flies with honey than You do with vinegar." Let's try and sweeten the RPG deal and not leave a bad taste in the newbies' mouths!
If you are talking about 4e players and explaining to them the differences in 3e or prpg I would focus on:
combat differences
1)In the main No-one has per encounter powers
2)In the main only spellcasters have 'daily powers' these are called spells (there are some exceptions)and spellcasters have a lot more of them than the 4e character has daily powers
3) because you dont have per encounter powers not every combat will have the characters using the same powers- it is likely that you will use some daily powers early and some later in the dungeon
4) spells do not have the same feel as melee or missile combat, they frequently do not require an attack roll though there is often a similar mechanic whereby the target rolls a save to resist the effect (which save varies dependent on the power of the caster and the spell)
5) only a limted number of classes can heal others or themselves, which means the make up of your group is important
6) monsters are more like characters in that they have similar abilities to characters
7) the system contemplates fighting less monsters per encounter than 4e
8) hitting some monster in combat is likely to do it hp's damage, not to grant you or a friend some other ability, enable someone to move, cause the monster to do anything special like fall over, move away etc
9) most combat attacks are resolved against armor class, spells effect reflex, fortitude and will
Skills
1) there are many more skills & the system is more complex
2) you are more able to customize your characters skills and decide what they are good at and how good they are
roleplaying
- This is up to the DM and the players
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More than any comparisons we can make between the editions... more than how many ways we can come up with to validate our dissatisfaction... it is the WAY in which we go about advocating PRPG that matters the most.
Spot on. Showcasing the love of 3.5 and PF and not spitting on another system is the way.
Newb: "What's 'Paizo'?"7. All the people that wrote the best D&D adventures work for Paizo. :)
Answer: A company started by those that created many of the best adventures D&D had to offer for version 3.
More than any comparisons we can make between the editions... more than how many ways we can come up with to validate our dissatisfaction... it is the WAY in which we go about advocating PRPG that matters the most.Spot on. Showcasing the love of 3.5 and PF and not spitting on another system is the way.
Dead on.
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Seriously though,
It's a hot, dry day in a tiny village just out of reach of the Keep in the Borderlands. A handful of peasant farmers are going about their daily routine, tilling dusty, clay-like fields hoping for rain.
Meanwhile, 100 or so yards out of the village proper 4 teenagers are hiding from their farmer-parents and chores, splashing in the water-hole.
Then hordes of orcs and ogres charge down to the village to begin slaughtering the women, raping the men and burning the village. The peasants grab some pitch forks, wood-chopping axes and the farming polearm to try to fight off the raiders but it all seems hopeless.
The teenagers frantically put their clothes back on and begin to charge to their families and home. But arrive too late. They grab a few weapons from the bodies of orcs and try to fight, only to flee from overwhelming numbers all too soon. Hiding in the hills minutes later, bruised and bloody they vow to follow the raiders and seek revenge.
The 4 teenagers, peasant farmers yesterday, angry adventurers today, follow the raiders deep in the wilderness to their cavern stronghold. Once inside they go area by area, quietly killing as they go. As one fight gets particularly messy one of the teenagers gets slashed across the back, blood spewing everywhere. Another has her leg smashed and is bleeding from a head wound.
Then, one of the teens swings the sword he took from an orc only hours earlier and screems
HEALING SURGE ACTIVATE! and all four teens' wounds are healed.
The end.
-W. E. Ray
This is nice...subtle meanings laced with sarcarsm :)