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The Sorcerer need a change, a core for the class. I don't know while, but in the present Alpha 3, it's a 2nd class wizard.
The sorcerer has gotten a big power boost in PfRPG, have you playtested it? What makes you think the changes aren't enough?
Sorcerers get more spells known (through their bloodline spell list), plus they get their Bloodline powers boosting their power even more. Wizards have not significantly increased in power in Pathfinder. School powers are sort of a wash, some say less powerful than the previous 1 spell/ level, certainly less flexible.
I also think bloodlines give Sorcerers a bit of flavor that they lacked previously.
1) A spell list different from wizard.
I'm not sure this is a good idea, would you give cleric or druid spells to the sorcerer? Maintaining a separate spell list is a huge burden and a big hit to compatibility and I can't see how it would really help.
2) No need material component for spells
Umm... did you read the Alpha 3 Sorcerer? "Eschew Materials" is a bonus feat at first level. Spells with expensive components still cost but in general sorcerers are component free now.
3) A Charisma modifier for Will Saves, not Wisdom modifier, only for Sorcerers
Having an otherwise useless primary casting attribute does hurt the sorcerer. Sorcerers get a decent Will save in any case.
4) A option, fortitude or reflex ST, its good like Will ST.
I think a second good save would be very nice. REF would be a nice secondary save for them.
-- Dennis
I agree that the current Alpha 3 version of the sorcerer still needs work. I like the additions of the bloodlines and the increase in hps and echew materials (as already in use in Monte Cook's own works), but the low skill ranks per level make members of the class out to be lazy slackards with no movitation. The sorcerer is, like the bard, supposed to be charismatic...not just frightening and professional.
Suggestions:
Increase the skill ranks from (2+INT mod.) to at least (4+INT mod). they are not supposed to be as cloistered and sedate as most traditional Clerics and Wizards.
Also, by eliminating cross-class skills (which I agree with) there is now a problem of customizing a character out of the box.
Suggestions:
Designate some skills as universal, similar to the grouping catagories from 2nd edition and allow all characters to choose from these universal skills freely as if they are class skills at each level. This way wizards, sorcerers, etc. from seafaring cultures can actually learn how to swim.
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Suggestions:
Increase the skill ranks from (2+INT mod.) to at least (4+INT mod). they are not supposed to be as cloistered and sedate as most traditional Clerics and Wizards.
I like this idea, wizards have high INT so will always have plenty of skill points. Sorcerers really get punished on the skills unless they invest in INT which would otherwise be a tertiary stat for them.
Designate some skills as universal, similar to the grouping catagories from 2nd edition and allow all characters to choose from these universal skills freely as if they are class skills at each level. This way wizards, sorcerers, etc. from seafaring cultures can actually learn how to swim.
I think this sort of change would be on a per campaign level rather than being for the gaming system in general. It's interesting that you pick seafaring cultures and swimming because in the days of wind and sails most sailors didn't know how to swim. Regardless, I think the idea of having class skills and regional skills is a good one but without an underlying campaign world of little use.
-- Dennis
All schools obtain at even level one power, Why the bloodlines no?
[..snip..]
Yes, but [E]schew material it's a metamagic feat, then take a full round cast a spell, I like if the Sorcerer can cast with [E]schew material normaly.
[..snip..]
I agree, but if sorcerer can cast spells and wizard not, and viceversa, both class look more diferent one of the other.
1) Bloodlines do get a power at level one (e.g. Acidic Ray for the Abberant bloodline). Or am I misunderstanding your comment?
2) Eschew Materials is not a metamagic feat in 3.5 or Pathfinder; it automatically applies to all spells without increasing casting time. I think it might have been in 3.0, though.
3) Note that several bloodlines have non-wizard spells as bonus spells known (e.g. bless + flame strike for the Celestial bloodline).
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Many of the bloodlines give big time power boosts at first level. Right now in my playtest group one of the players is running a character that is an elemental bloodline sorcerer. At 1st level he gets Elemental Ray which he can use at will to make a ranged touch attack that does 1d6 damage, and the damage increases by +1 for every two levels he gains. This is really powerful for a first level character. True wizards get a base power and a level power but that doesn't mean that the sorcerer is any less of a powerhouse.
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Wish with no cost... many people have said that is broken and I agree. I think the issue is with the changes to the Wizard, the sorcerer does not need to be brought up to that level. So I agree that it's more powerful but don't see it's something that needs to be fixed on the sorcerer's end.
I'm inclined to think the metamagic generalist ability is a little too powerful also... I'm inclined to suggest it's a bit too much as well :(
All schools obtain at even level one power, Why the bloodlines no?
Bloodlines have 1st level powers roughly equal to Wizards. Are you talking about the "Specialist Bonus"?
I agree, but if sorcerer can cast spells and wizard not, and viceversa, both class look more diferent one of the other.
I'll just have to disagree with you. A wizard has so many spells avoiding only a few areas which are dominated by the Cleric and Druid, what direction would you have the sorcerer's spells take?
Yes, but schew material it's a metamagic feat, then take a full round cast a spell, I like if the Sorcerer can cast with schew material normaly....
Well the PHB and SRD both show eschew as a General type Feat not as meta-magic. I don't see any reference to meta-magic in the description in either, nor does it raise spell level the way silent spell or still spell do. As far as I can tell it just eliminates material components. Maybe I'm missing something?
-- Dennis
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Also, by eliminating cross-class skills (which I agree with) there is now a problem of customizing a character out of the box.
Problems like what? They can spend ranks in non-class skills, and just like class skills, they're limited to 1 rank per level.
You also have more feats, so if you want to be good at a non-class skill you've got Skill Focus and the +2/+2 feats that stack.
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While I must admit I love the flavor and boost to the sorcerer, bloodlines is not the way to go.
Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
For example, when my dwarven fighter takes a level of Sorcerer suddenly I get a Bloodline that has never materialized before now. Ok, possible but stretches all credibility. The bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
Bloodlines can be limited to only manifesting at Character level 1, but then so much of the new sorcerer is tied to the bloodline that multiclassing is hosed.
While I must admit I love the flavor and boost to the sorcerer, bloodlines is not the way to go.
Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
For example, when my dwarven fighter takes a level of Sorcerer suddenly I get a Bloodline that has never materialized before now. Ok, possible but stretches all credibility. The bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
If you don't like the flavour of a bloodline for your character, choose the "Arcane" or "Destined" option. That's easy enough, I think. Or, even better, just ignore the "fluff" altogether and just use the "crunch".
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Wouldn't it be better to have the class working right rather than ignoring parts of it to use other parts? That seems like a jury-rigged way of playing.
BTW there was mention above about a different spell list from Wizards. Someone mentioned it being silly for a Sorcerer to cast Cleric or Druid spells. Well, they already do. A LOT of spells are usable by both arcane and divine. I have always thought the Sorcerer needed it's own spell list.
Wouldn't it be better to have the class working right rather than ignoring parts of it to use other parts? That seems like a jury-rigged way of playing.
The class works fine mechanically (in my opinion). If you don't like some of the flavour surrounding it, that doesn't mean you have to throw the whole class out the window. For instance, if I have a campaign where the Asian flavour of the monk class doesn't fit very well, I can still use it by renaming "ki" and "nunchaku" as "inner strength" and "blunt chain".
Is there something with the mechanics of the sorcerer that you think doesn't work?
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yes very clearly.
A character is composed of two choices. Race and Class.
The sorcerer takes and adds racial choices to the Class.
It would be akin to saying that elves spontaneously develop sneak attack abilities when they reach level 10 with the ability to rage at level 12.
In the design of the game the two have clear functions. The Sorcerer blurs these functions.
By taking a class, you alter your race. If it were a mild change, that could be acceptable, or even if all classes had some modifications to offer. But the Sorcerer adds major changes.
The problem lies in the fact that any character class of any race that chooses to add a level of Sorcerer for some power boost or whatever suddenly finds that his racial background changes.
It is like having a halfling rogue 18 take a level in barbaian and finding out he is actually a tiefling all this time. Then the human 17 fighter takes a level of barbarian and suddenly finds out he too is a tiefling. Then the elven cleric 17 takes a level of barbarian and finds out he's really a tiefling.
See, this makes no sense at all in this presentation. And yet it is perfectly acceptable for us to substitute sorcerer and bloodlines. Remember a tiefling is a human (or whatever) with diluted diabloic blood that has manifested. Sounds a lot like bloodlines.
To make any kind of sense the bloodlines need to be able to manifest with any class choice. However, PfRPG has chosen to restrict bloodlines only to the sorcerer.
yes very clearly.
A character is composed of two choices. Race and Class.
The sorcerer takes and adds racial choices to the Class.
So you have a similar problem with the Dragon Disciple prestige class, I take it.
At any rate, I still don't see what complaint you have other than the word "bloodline" makes the sorcerer's abilities "racial". Suppose that everything about the sorcerer was kept the same, but the bloodlines were replaced with schools of magic. So you could have a sorcerer studying "draconic magic" or "celestial magic" or "fey magic". Then the class would have nothing to do with race -- the "draconic magic" sorcerer can magically emulate a dragon's claws or wings instead of actually growing them. But mechanically the class wouldn't have changed at all, just the flavour.
Sorry, but I think sorcerers are just fine as they are. If they get any more powerful then wizards players will start complaining that wizards have been left behind and we 'll just enter a vicious circle. Perhaps some tweaking with the bloodlines is in order(to make more sense with their race, ie certain races to be able to choose specific bloodlines), but their power level is pretty balanced.
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I certainly would not change the power level at all.
And yes, changing the bloodline to studying a magic style would be an acceptable, though lame fix. Unfortunately I can currently see no other way of doing it.
The problem is not that the bloodline is a fluff. It is a crunchy. It is part of the mechanics of how the powers manifest. This is the same as saying all magic comes from the same source. Mechanicly it is the same. Instead we divide divine and arcane powers. On the outside they are the same, but in the heart of the matter they are very different.
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Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
... The bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
Bloodlines can be limited to only manifesting at Character level 1, but then so much of the new sorcerer is tied to the bloodline that multiclassing is hosed.
The sorcerer bloodlines are great mechanically and have a history in fiction. I'm not sure why you feel they are so horrible. "suddenly I get a bloodline that has never materialized before". This could be a long dormant gene or maybe sorcery runs in your family. The player in my group comes from a line of sorcerers and claimed he had dragon ancestry long before PfRPG was a concept. Would it be a huge stretch for a dwarf to have a earth elemental bloodline? I would think that would fit right in.
I don't know why you feel this messes with multi classing any more than any other class. Care to explain that a little?
-- Dennis
While I must admit I love the flavor and boost to the sorcerer, bloodlines
is not the way to go.
Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
For example, when my dwarven fighter takes a level of Sorcerer suddenly I get a Bloodline
that has never materialized before now. Ok, possible but stretches all credibility. The
bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
Bloodlines can be limited to only manifesting at Character level 1, but then so much of the
new sorcerer is tied to the bloodline that multiclassing is hosed.
I would almost agree with your, but then I gave a second thought and saw it from another
angle.
when my dwarven fighter takes a level of Sorcerer suddenly I get a Bloodline
that has never materialized before now.
YES! Exactly, it has never materialized before until you started to look inward, look within
yourself to find the answers to what you are. Maybe you were always fond of the Fey, you
find yourself confortable in the wilderness and never knew why; maybe when a child you
always felt "haunted" when alone, had the feeling something evil was watching you; maybe
there's a reason why you were always good to people, why you had visions of angels when a
child... and innumerous other possibilities.
The point is, the power was always there, latent within you. And it never showed until now,
when you started to pursue a more personal path, get in touch with your inner self, accept
and develop your abilites.
Maybe one day your dwarven fighter suddently shot fire from his hands, he was completly
stunned by it, maybe he just let it go, probably something caused by the magic of the place
he was in... but then maybe it happened again, or it started troubling him so much he
couldn't igone the fact there was something different in him.. and it started to make sense,
why he was always drawn to fire, why he was so interested in dragons and while other people
would flee from even mentioning it he was curious to understand them... and he started to
understand himself a little more, understand and accept what he was, develop his innate
powers (and thus gaining sorcerer levels...)... or again, another possiblity... he didn't
give a rat's ass about it, he learned he could shoot a little fire from his hands, someone
told him he had dragon's blood in him.. "what the hell" he though, "might come in handy
sometimes", and continued his mastering of the sword and axe (got onelevel of sorcerer for
some Burning Hands and thats it... ).
Try to see the it from another angle. You can have a bloodline (no matter your race/class), and the sorcerer class is your "giving in" to these powers, it's the "developing" of the innate magic within you.
The class concept ends up opening a lot of roleplaying oportunities.
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Monte Cook had a variant sorcerer list which mainly tweaked the arcane list to emphasise the sorcerer's tendency to be a caster of the moment rather than a studied spellcaster. It was the same list with certain spells omitted, one or two adjusted and the levels on others changed, like making mage armor for instance, a second level spell. And eliminating long and complex to cast spells such as Guards and Wards.
I've heard a lot of good things about the spell system Monte Cooke put together, hopefully some of it will spill over into PfRPG. What concerns me about talk about a new sorcerer spell list is that it would likely be a subset of the wizard's list. A new spell list? Sure, as long as it is actually power neutral or better to the sorcerer.
00 Dennis
Now, sorcerers do need 4 skill points... it's about time devs quit being stubborn about this, from what I've seen, the great majority of people agree with this.
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Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
... The bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
Bloodlines can be limited to only manifesting at Character level 1, but then so much of the new sorcerer is tied to the bloodline that multiclassing is hosed.
The sorcerer bloodlines are great mechanically and have a history in fiction. I'm not sure why you feel they are so horrible. "suddenly I get a bloodline that has never materialized before". This could be a long dormant gene or maybe sorcery runs in your family. The player in my group comes from a line of sorcerers and claimed he had dragon ancestry long before PfRPG was a concept. Would it be a huge stretch for a dwarf to have a earth elemental bloodline? I would think that would fit right in.
I don't know why you feel this messes with multi classing any more than any other class. Care to explain that a little?
-- Dennis
I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom.
Makes more sense here that the bloodline would have kicked in for the cleric levels. But no, I have to add an arcane class to get that bloodline.
I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom.
Makes more sense here that the bloodline would have kicked in for the cleric levels. But no, I have to add an arcane class to get that bloodline.
I don't believe anyone's saying that a character would not see signs of the bloodline before levels in sorcerer are taken. In fact, in your example the character would probably have always felt drawn to the divine, a special affinity that those around him may never have experienced. It's likely that the latent bloodline is what drew the character to the cleric class. However, he needs to recognise and consciously tap into that heritage before he can utilize and expand upon those abilities. And regardless of the bloodline's source, the act of manipulating that potantial is an arcane one. That's what I think the sorcerer class represents, and in this sense it doesn't bear any barriers to multiclassing.
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I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom.
"The Unschooled Wizard" is an excellent book by Barbara Hambly about a story almost identical to what you describe. It's about an older mercenary who comes into his magical power late in life. The story is a very nice foil to the classic wizard "coming of age" stories.
Another classic example which is likely more well known is Durnick from the Belgariad. He spends most of the book in a role as ranger/ fighter only to be granted magic at the end of the story.
What triggers latent genes and who gets affected is hard to predict in real life, I don't see why in game it would be any different. Look at real life genetic diseases and the way it often seems random and gets expressed sometimes very late in life.
-- Dennis
Sorry my english, the schools obtain powers at levels of wizard 2nd, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20 (¿even levels?), english itsn't my native language, sorry for the confussion.
Sorcerers bloodline, obtain powers at levels 1st, 3, 9, 15 and 20.
Wizard obtain 10 (+1 if not prepare spells of prohibet schools), Sorcerer obtain 5, and in severals bloodlines, the power is for melee combat (the Sorcerer not to have the BAB, HP and probably not AC for melee combat).
I would think of it this way:
-Wizards get 1-4 spell slots + a 1/day spell-like ability of each spell level from 2-3 and 5-9; on top of this, they get 3 extra abilities (at levels 1, 8 and 20), possibly a specialist ability, and a level 1 spell-like ability usable multiple times.
-Sorcerers get 3-6 spell slots of each spell level from 1-9; on top of this, they get 5 extra abilities (at levels 1, 3+, 9+, 15, and 20).
I agree that some of the sorcerer abilities are not that good, but some of the wizard abilities are not that good either.
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Sorry my english, the schools obtain powers at levels of wizard 2nd, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20 (¿even levels?).
Sorcerers bloodline, obtain powers at levels 1st, 3, 9, 15 and 20.
Wizard obtain 10 (+1 if not prepare spells of prohibet schools), Sorcerer obtain 5, and in severals bloodlines, the power is for melee combat (the Sorcerer not to have the BAB, HP and probably not AC for melee combat).
Beyond what Hogarth said, look at the increase in relative power between versions.
Wizards previously received 1 additional spell at every spell level. This was replaced with a SLA they receive every other level that is roughly equivalent to a spell of that same level. It's arguable that Wizard's power is roughly in-line with what it was in D&D 3.5 (the exception being Universalists).
The sorcerer on the other hand gains bloodline powers and additional spells known per day. The only take away from the sorcerer is the familiar and IF you miss the familiar you can take the arcane bloodline. The sorcerer in PfRPG gives up nothing compared to the D&D Sorcerer.
The only other addition to the Wizard is the bond to object class feature, but it is also available to the Sorcerer via the arcane bloodline so that is a wash between the two classes.
Does it go far enough to bridge the gap between the two classes? I'm not sure. I think the universalist is a bit broken so it's hard to compare to that.
-- Dennis
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I think that the Sorcerer really only need two more Powers. With having more spell slots, the Sorcerer has a little more magic to work with, but School Powers give the Wizard the upper hand.
Having an Arcane Bloodline Power that works like the Versatile Spellcaster Feat from the Races of the Dragon would be a good example. Perhaps giving Bloodline Powers at 1st, and every 3rd level after.
One of the Complete Mage splatbooks had a feat which allowed the use of the Charisma modifier for will saves. Forget what it's called at the moment though.
The feat was called Force of Personality and is in the Complete Adventurer Pg.109
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[QUOTE=]
What triggers latent genes and who gets affected is hard to predict in real life, I don't see why in game it would be any different. Look at real life genetic diseases and the way it often seems random and gets expressed sometimes very late in life.
-- Dennis
Yeah that is my point. Random. Hard to predict.
Yet in this case it is not random, nor hard to predict. We know that only the sorcerer class can trigger the genes, we know that when the class is taken your genes will be acted upon. We know that no other event will cause the genes to express. Not even becoming a Wizard.
If you believe your statement above then you are coming over to my side. :)
Let me ask you this... would you like bloodlines nearly as much if they were unique to the fighter class? Let's say it is the extreme violence of structured hand to hand combat (ie not barbarian) that causes the psychic anguish that causes the bloodline to express itself.
Before you just pipe in and say that would be cool... really think about it for a few minutes.
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Sorry my english, the schools obtain powers at levels of wizard 2nd, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 and 20 (¿even levels?).
Sorcerers bloodline, obtain powers at levels 1st, 3, 9, 15 and 20.
Wizard obtain 10 (+1 if not prepare spells of prohibet schools), Sorcerer obtain 5, and in severals bloodlines, the power is for melee combat (the Sorcerer not to have the BAB, HP and probably not AC for melee combat).Beyond what Hogarth said, look at the increase in relative power between versions.
Wizards previously received 1 additional spell at every spell level. This was replaced with a SLA they receive every other level that is roughly equivalent to a spell of that same level. It's arguable that Wizard's power is roughly in-line with what it was in D&D 3.5 (the exception being Universalists).
The sorcerer on the other hand gains bloodline powers and additional spells known per day. The only take away from the sorcerer is the familiar and IF you miss the familiar you can take the arcane bloodline. The sorcerer in PfRPG gives up nothing compared to the D&D Sorcerer.
The only other addition to the Wizard is the bond to object class feature, but it is also available to the Sorcerer via the arcane bloodline so that is a wash between the two classes.
Does it go far enough to bridge the gap between the two classes? I'm not sure. I think the universalist is a bit broken so it's hard to compare to that.
-- Dennis
All of the above... but then look at the poor fighter. Who in the world will ever want to play a fighter again? The feats are weaker and his new abilities are really equal abilities he already had, just spread out over time instead of one lump sum and not in a feat. The fighter is so weak he can't even lift the staff of a wizard anymore...
I am not against the power increase, as it balances against the splat book classes. But to be honest the wizard and fighter got screwed
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Yeah that is my point. Random. Hard to predict.
Yet in this case it is not random, nor hard to predict. We know that only the sorcerer class can trigger the genes, we know that when the class is taken your genes will be acted upon. We know that no other event will cause the genes to express. Not even becoming a Wizard.
Umm.... yeah, I still just don't see having issues with this for myself or most players. Maybe it's related to the sort of reading I've done or the fact that I'm a little older and can empathize with someone in the situation you describe.
-- Dennis
What I would would do: Give the sorcerer's bloodlines, spell descriptor(s) for each bloodline that gives the sorcerer a +1 bonus to caster level when the sorcerer casts a spell with a matching descriptor as the one (or more) found in their bloodline. (Example: A sorcerer with the Celestial bloodline casts spells with the good descriptor with +1 to caster level, one with the Elemental bloodline: (Air) casts spells with electricity descriptor at a +1 caster level, and so on)
Ooh! I REALLY like that! A lot! Consider it ganked. A list will follow as soon as I get home and can look at the bloodlines more carefully.
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I am not against the power increase, as it balances against the splat book classes. But to be honest the wizard and fighter got screwed
Umm... considering how badly the fighter was screwed in D&D3.5 he is much better off now than previously. I imagine the same people who enjoyed playing it previously will enjoy it now.
I don't buy that the wizard got screwed but that's a whole other discussion.
-- dennis
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Yeah that is my point. Random. Hard to predict.
Yet in this case it is not random, nor hard to predict. We know that only the sorcerer class can trigger the genes, we know that when the class is taken your genes will be acted upon. We know that no other event will cause the genes to express. Not even becoming a Wizard.
Umm.... yeah, I still just don't see having issues with this for myself or most players. Maybe it's related to the sort of reading I've done or the fact that I'm a little older and can empathize with someone in the situation you describe.
-- Dennis
are you older than 40? :)
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Yet in this case it is not random, nor hard to predict. We know that only the sorcerer class can trigger the genes, we know that when the class is taken your genes will be acted upon. We know that no other event will cause the genes to express.Maybe they just needed to get some experience out in the world before they could access their true heritage... Isn't it possible that the character in your example began manifesting minor signs of his bloodline earlier, which then allowed him to take a level of sorcerer? The signs don't even have to be full fledged powers. Likely, they were minor cosmetic changes that the character hid from the rest of the world, so no one noticed anything different before they got full access to their new powers...
The narative above is different from your interpretation, but the mechanics behind it are the same: character multi-classes into sorcerer some number of levels into their career, and no one got to see it coming. That might sound a bit 'hand-wavy', but it gets around your problem by ignoring the line by line mechanical details and gets back into the actual story of the character. It sounds like something I could work into a minor plot point, or at least use to provide some additional color. It doesn't sound like something nonsensical when looked at that way.
If it bothers you so much from a story / believability standpoint, just require your players give you notice before multiclassing into sorc so you can weave the change into the story. I'd even consider giving them reduced access to the lvl 0 ability before they take the class (case by case basis of course), so it looks like a more fluid transition when they finally do make the change. Or you could just not allow them to use their new abilities until a certain point in the plot has been reached; you seem to feel that this is a big deal so you should make a big deal out of it in the game.
well no that doesn't work sometimes. I just decided upon a whim to add that level of sorcerer, so there have been no signs at all, ever. :)
So, like you guys really wouldn't mind then if we spice up the fighter, who needs a LOT Of love, by adding bloodlines to it for say Minotaur, Giant, Ogre, Slaad, Titan and Troll Bloodlines. Cause I really think those bloodlines would really help out the fighter. The Wizard could use a touch also, so maybe just Arcane bloodlines for them. Or if not Arcane bloodlines maybe we can have people who multiclass to a wizard get to choose a new race altogether.
Actually I like that, since racial decisions can be decided by class, lets allow everyone to change their race whenever they multiclass. After all the genes can suddenly manifest oddly in a magical world.
Let me put it this way, the story comes first. If the mechanics drive the story to change then the mechanics are bad. In all honesty this smacks of stuff from 4E. So why not just play 4E? Remember one reason Paizo wanted to stay with 3.x is because of the story they had already created. 4E required them to change the story. So, what you guys want is to change the story based upon the mechanics. If that is so, then there is no need for a PfRPG to begin with.
This bloodline thing makes as much sense as an elven wizard who takes a level of fighter and becomes a dwarf, who then takes a level of rogue and becomes a halfling. Just change your story to fit the new race.
If the bloodlines were not tied exclusively to the sorcerer it would work. But they just don't. I agree the fluff is cool. But you don't keep poor mechanics for the sake of the fluff (see the topic about good class creation for examples). Fix the mechanics to fit the fluff. Right now there is no logic behind the mechanics. And I do not mean real world logic, I mean in game logic that is consistent with all other mechanics.
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1) The specialist can prepare and learn spells from prohibited schools, at cost of the minor power ("Specialist bonus"), thats maintain flexibility for specialist.
2) Spell like abilitys don't cost material component, for example, Conjuration School level 18, Gate spell like ability one for day, don't cost 5.000 gp (designers note page 115 of the Alpha 3).
Hrm... I see what you are saying but I don't like these changes. Personally I hope these are oversites that get fixed but since they have existed since A1 it's likely they aren't... Hm.
Yes, but not all the sorcerers bloodlines maintain the balance, because severals focus one or more power in melee combat, like Abyssal bloodline, (claws at level 1, attack the AC normal not touch). The bonus spells to learn cost materials, not like Wizard with spell like ability,
I'm testing out a low level sorcerer right now, I am interested in how well the claws do. You are right, they aren't touch attacks however he gets 2 attacks at full BAB... I figure they might be useful for 2-3 levels but we'll see. I would also like to see the feats have a little more general use... without some multi classing the class is bound to be weak in melee regardless.
I like the Sorcerer, but the Wizard it's more powerful, not much but still exist the difference. If both class was equivalent in power, then the difference it´s only the flexibility, for Wizard it´s how many spell he can learn, and for the Sorcerer it´s not necesary prepare his spells, thats it´s good, but it's not for now.
I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. However I don't feel the problem is with the changes to the sorcerer, I think the problems are with the wizard and it should be repaired from that end. As it stands the wizard was the most powerful class and this seems to increase that gap in a lot of ways. :(
-- Dennis
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Let me put it this way, the story comes first. If the mechanics drive the story to change then the mechanics are bad. In all honesty this smacks of stuff from 4E. So why not just play 4E? Remember one reason Paizo wanted to stay with 3.x is because of the story they had already created. 4E required them to change the story. So, what you guys want is to change the story based upon the mechanics. If that is so, then there is no need for a PfRPG to begin with.
I agree the story comes first, it's just that I (and my players can see in a very logical way how this can be a fun mechanic to work into the story for my character. If you don't care for it then just say he learned it.
The concept of people getting magical powers through their bloodlines is rife throughout fiction and I like a class that plays on that story concept, no one is forcing you to use the fluff.
-- Dennis
As a side note: I love this phrase "In all honesty this smacks of stuff from 4E. So why not just play 4E?". It gets bandied about all over the place when people want to send up red flags about something without any real logic. What if (lord forbid) 4e got something right? Should we avoid that as well because it smacks of 4e?
Incidentally if you read the class description in the PHB the fluff in there talks about dragon blood. There are also sorcerer bloodlines in several of the splat books, as an example Heros of Horror has a "Fiend Blooded" PrC. The concept predates 4e by some time.
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It is like having a halfling rogue 18 take a level in barbaian and finding out he is actually a tiefling all this time. Then the human 17 fighter takes a level of barbarian and suddenly finds out he too is a tiefling. Then the elven cleric 17 takes a level of barbarian and finds out he's really a tiefling.
Anyone else remember the 'Yamara' strip in Dragon?
One episode, the monsters are sitting around playing cards, waiting for their number to come up on the wandering monster rota. Joe Cleric bursts in, turns most of them, leaving 'the ghoul'...
"Hey, how come the mummy and the wight ran away, but I'm still here?"
...
"Is this thing on?"
"Wow, I'm a LICH!"
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@Krome:
The bloodlines don't "kick in" for a race because of game balance issues. That's what a good game is all about. If you would rather go for the "story comes first" approach then by all means lose the rules completely. What's the point in discussing rules when you make statements like that? So you want to be a cleric with the benefit of a bloodline, go ahead and make it happen. But don't expect everyone else to just sit idly by. Soon all sorts of "let's break this rule because the story comes first and I want these powers for my character" will be flying high.
You fail to see the point of that post.
And the point in discussing the rules, is that the purpose of the rules is to support stories. That is the entire reason we use a rule set to play the games in the first place. If the rules come first, just play WOW.
The secondary purpose seemed to strike home. If you don't like the idea of bloodline powers for everyone, then why do you like them only for sorcerers?
Now I can fully go with the whole bloodline for a straight up sorcerer. It then becomes the source of his powers. 4E (as far as I can tell- and I may be wrong here) no longer allows multiclassing, so this would fit right in. That is why it smacks of 4E. There are some good ideas in 4E, and I plan on using them in my games if they fit.
The point is the mechanic breaks down with multiclassing into the sorcerer. And while there mnay be precedents to this found in 3.x, that does not mean that it is good mechanics. 3.x is rife with bad classes. Just because it existed does not mean it should be used.
well no that doesn't work sometimes. I just decided upon a whim to add that level of sorcerer, so there have been no signs at all, ever. :)
To me, that makes just as much sense as deciding to take a level of wizard upon a whim without showing any signs of it at all, ever.
Those kind of situations argue in favour of having some kind of mandatory training before multiclassing (in the sorcerer's case tapping into his heritage, and in the wizard's case studying spellbooks; it doesn't matter whether the new power is "racial" or not.
If you don't like the idea of bloodline powers for everyone, then why do you like them only for sorcerers?
Krome, the D&D Sorcerer has always been based on the idea that he has magic in his heritage, his bloodline. Which is exactly why bloodline powers make sense for the Sorcerer and not for any other class.
Additionally, you're not getting a new race. If that were the case, how do you explain the Arcane or Destined bloodlines? Are there Arcane and Destined races I'm not aware of?
Finally, if you really have this much of a problem with it (and it really seems you're in the tiny minority on this point), I would recommend either (a) taking an Arcane or Destined bloodline so you don't have to worry about "gaining a new race", or (b) not playing a PF sorcerer, or (c) not playing PF.