What if you needed a big ritual to take a level in sorcerer? So, if you're going to be a dragon bloodline sorcerer, you'd need to drink dragon blood and then take some kind of hallucinogen and run around pretending to be a dragon for a week or so, and when you come down off it, you've unlocked some minor abilities?
Then it's an acquired thing, not an inborn one.
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And the point in discussing the rules, is that the purpose of the rules is to support stories.
You keep saying this but no one else has an issue with it.
The point is the mechanic breaks down with multiclassing into the sorcerer.
You keep saying this but no one else has a problem with this either. The mechanic does not break down. You take a level of sorcerer, you get XXX abilities, what is broken about the mechanical aspects of the class?
You are arguing about the fluff of the class and after a certain point an issue becomes a matter of opinion. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the way it works, it is just your opinion that it is a clunky story. My opinion is that it is not.
At this point it's clear neither side is going change their perspective. Is there any point in chasing this down any further?
-- Dennis
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Story wise, you apparently don't have a problem with waking up one morning and being able to cast magic missile 3 times a day, and disrupt undead 6 times a day.
However, you do have a problem with the flavour text of some other of the mysterious new abilities you've suddenly developed on a whim.
How about if you suddenly became a barbarian? Would that give you a problem too?
Story wise, you apparently don't have a problem with waking up one morning and being able to cast magic missile 3 times a day, and disrupt undead 6 times a day.
However, you do have a problem with the flavour text of some other of the mysterious new abilities you've suddenly developed on a whim./QUOTE]Gotta admit, it's true.
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Ok Ok I have been doing a lot of thinking on the whole bloodlines thing. I flipped it around and looked at it as a story first with mechanics to support it. I can see now ways it could work out for story. Multiclassing and all.
So, I am officially changing my opinion and siding with you guys.
Not 100% thrilled with the idea but I can go 85% of the way with it :)
Aren't happy that one is set to rest :)
What is a sorcerer? a wizard who not need study but practice, with more spells daily?
The Sorcerer need a change, a core for the class. I don't know while, but in the present Alpha 3, it's a 2nd class wizard.
The Sorcerer need more power, the bloodlines its a good idea, but they don't reaches at school power, maybe if gain a blooline power at every even level.
The feats and power not to melee combat, the Sorcerer not enought Hit Points, no Base attack, and probably not the AC for a melee combat.
What is a sorcerer? That question really nails it because the class is perceived so differently by so many different DMs and Players.
I would like to see futher improvement in the class with more variants so it is more fun to play a PF sorcerer. IMO Paizo isn't quite there yet with the sorcerer class.
Why not play a SRD variant spellcaster or a PHBII Beguiler with backwards compatibility? Both are easier to play than a PF sorcerer since the abilites are fixed or chosen by the player?
The Alpha 3 sorcerer is improved over the Alpha 2 and almost anything is an improvement over the base core class sorcerer like granting them all the bonus feats PF dropped from the game every few levels which wouldn't necessarily make the class more fun to play.
The Alpha 3 still pales when compared to a 3.5 SRD Spellcaster with open bonus feats at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 IMO with most of the feat options in game.
I would like to see a few more PF sorcerer playing options based on the 3.5 SRD Variant Spellcaster mechanically so there will be something that will appeal to most players.
IMO adding a skill point variant side note which grants the sorcerer and a few other classes 3 or 4 skill points a level is a no brainer. It appeases everyone as an "Optional" rule and it makes it easy for a DM to keep it out of his or her game if he finds it unbalancing or bad for backwards compatibility.
The PF Blood line are nice but overkill IMO because there are to many. Consider limiting them to 3 or even 4 of the most popular as they will be the ones that will generally see the most play in games.
Additional variant bloodlines can be introduced in future gaming supplements using BBEG Bloodline Sorcerers which is great for backwards compatibility since those bloodlines will always be optional for a DM.
Strongly consider dropping the less popular bloodlines to provide "other" sorcerer class role playing options in game which will appeal to more players.
The PF Gish Battle Sorcerer Variant is popular particularly with players who enjoy mixing it up in melee and playing with fewer known spells and daily spellcasting. This variant also takes up less space than one of the weaker IMO PF "filler" bloodlines.
Consider something like Two "Spellcaster Sorcerer" Variants which take up less space than one of current PF sorcerer bloodlines:
One who gets a choice of a bonus known spell each time he levels for players who thinks sorcerers need a spell boost instead of a PF Bloodline.
For players who really dislike the delayed spellcasting progression and don't like playing Koblold monsters or the option of standard spellcasting spellcasting progression comparable to standard fullcasters with additional known spells.
Additionally, one crazy suggestion in line with the Arcane Bond issue of the wizard: since the wizard arcane bond now steps on the sorcerer’s toes by allowing a spontaneous cast once a day, perhaps the sorcerer arcane bond should step on the wizard’s toes and allow any one fixed arcane spell?As in, each morning the sorcerer could place in his bonded item any single spell from the entire arcane list of a level he was able to cast (yes if it had expensive material components he would have to...
The Shair and Shaman are both nice mechanics with the Gen or the Spirit Guide.
I like letting Sorcerers take Any Spell or Any Spell (Greater) with a spell book for a little more spell versatility with the 15 minute time penalty to prepare the spell like a wizard would with an open spell slot.
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Multiclassing into sorcerers has always been a problem for me as a DM. In the PHB they talk about how a sorceror's magic is natural, manifesting during the sorceror's youth. So yeah, how do you explain the 8th level Fighter suddenly realizing he's natural magic?
How do you explain a 1st level character realizing he's a sorcerer? It's the same thing only a little older. Just because you have trouble imagining something does not mean it won't make a good story/ character. I mentioned above, I'll mention it again, there is an awesome story about exactly this situation: The Unschooled Wizard
I don't get why this concept is so much harder to imagine than any of the million others you must deal with in D&D. Magic, devils, demons, werewolves... Eh, no problem. People getting sorcery past first level? Oh dear! Unthinkable. ???
Here's another great example by a more current/ popular author, Jim Butcher writes a great series called the Codex Alera. Everyone has innate 'sorcery' except Tavi who seriously kicks butt without it until... well I don't want to spoil the plot but it's safe to say it's highly relevant to the discussion.
- Dennis
Doesn't the fact that the Sorcerer even exists as a class rest on his/her Bloodline? Wizards get their power from training as do Fighters etc. Sorcerers are "defined" by their blood. They are not changing who they are, they are discovering latent power. The example of an Elf becoming a Dwarf was misleading in the sense that a Sorcerer does not become something new, it was there all along. Having the bloodline gives them the access to their ancestry and thus learning to control the power they become Sorcerers i.e. wielders of power that comes naturally rather than through training.
This makes perfect sense to me and can make for some interesting GM storytelling material.
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We always play with Sorcerers get mana (Spell Points from Unearthed Arcana). This rule makes SO much sense to me. It makes them more flexible and sorcerer like. I would scale down some of the other aspects and just go rip-roaring wild with the mana aspect. We also let bards use it, but that's beside the point.
TwinSteel
EDIT: I also employ the variation that makes the sorcerer fatigued when he gets low on mana.
I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom.
Makes more sense here that the bloodline would have kicked in for the cleric levels. But no, I have to add an arcane class to get that bloodline.
That's right, you do have to add the Sorcerer level to get the bloodlines. It's not broken, it's basic function. Sorcerers are basically folks who have arcane power derived from something inside of them; call it bloodline or heritage or inner strength, whatever. Instead of poring over moldy old tomes to unlock the secrets of turning the laws of physics upside-down, they somehow found within themselves that they already had such power... just one day they found the secret to unlock it and unleash it upon the world. It's really no different than other class features ... You may be a very bitter or angry person, but until you take a level in Barbarian, you will never learn to harness that rage into something powerful (and stats altering). 1st level wizards supposedly spend years learning their spells before they can cast a few simple cantrips, but your 10th level fighter can adopt 1 level of wizard and it's assumed that he learned to decipher magical script overnight. Barbarians grow up in a primitive illiterate society, but take a rank in Rogue and all of a sudden you're at a 5th grade reading level and know the inner workings of padlocks and dangerous mechanisms. Your paladin spent years strapping on armor and learning the finer points of polearms, but he whups a band of goblins for adequate XP, gets a good night's rest and takes a level in Monk and BAM! He's got more moves than Jackie Chan and has at least a brown belt in Jeet Kun Do.
See what I mean? Any class that multi-classes without adequate back-story is going to be at least slightly broken. You can't pin it all on Sorcerers... their power sources are no more ridiculous than some other character classes, and to suddenly find the ability to manifest them is no weirder than some of the other examples I've shown above. Besides, I understand that one of the main reasons the core classes were retooled for Pathfinder RPG was to make the choice of dedicating to a single-class option more appealing. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere on the www.paizo.com/pathfinderRPG webpage...
I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom.Makes more sense here that the bloodline would have kicked in for the cleric levels. But no, I have to add an arcane class to get that bloodline.
That's right, you do have to add the sorcerer level to get the bloodlines. It's not broken, it's basic function. Sorcerers are basically folks who have arcane power derived from something inside of them; call it bloodline or heritage or inner strength, whatever. Instead of poring over moldy old tomes to unlock the secrets of turning the laws of physics upside-down, they somehow found within themselves that they already had such power... just one day they found the secret to unlock it and unleash it upon the world. It's really no different than other class features ... You may be a very bitter or angry person, but until you take a level in Barbarian, you will never learn to harness that rage into something powerful (and stats altering). 1st level wizards supposedly spend years learning their spells before they can cast a few simple cantrips, but your 10th level fighter can adopt 1 level of wizard and it's assumed that he learned to decipher magical script overnight. Barbarians grow up in a primitive illiterate society, but take a rank in Rogue and all of a sudden you're at a 5th grade reading level and have an engineering degree on the inner workings of padlocks and dangerous mechanisms. Your paladin spent years strapping on armor and learning the finer points of polearms, but he whups a band of goblins for adequate XP, gets a good night's rest and takes a level in Monk and BAM! He's got more moves than Jackie Chan and has at least a brown belt in Jeet Kun Do.
See what I mean? Any class that multi-classes without adequate back-story is going to be at least slightly broken. You can't pin it all on Sorcerers... their power sources are no more ridiculous than some other character classes, and to suddenly find the ability to manifest them is no weirder than some of the other examples I've shown above. Besides, I understand that one of the main reasons the core classes were retooled for Pathfinder RPG was to make the choice of dedicating to a single-class option more appealing. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere on the www.paizo.com/pathfinderRPG webpage...
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I always viewed the bloodline thing as an awakening of latent powers, whether through actual heritage or some curse or other exposure to magical energies.
The current sorcerers seem pretty good, although I could actually go for more little incremental flavor abilities as they level, based on their bloodlines.
But that's not required; I'm pretty happy with how they are now.
While I must admit I love the flavor and boost to the sorcerer, bloodlines is not the way to go.
Bloodlines should be tied to race, not class.
For example, when my dwarven fighter takes a level of Sorcerer suddenly I get a Bloodline that has never materialized before now. Ok, possible but stretches all credibility. The bloodlines ONLY manifest for the sorcerer class.
Bloodlines can be limited to only manifesting at Character level 1, but then so much of the new sorcerer is tied to the bloodline that multiclassing is hosed.
Dont look at it that way, look at it this way. You've been a fighter for years, but this power has been dormant... building... until it finally over flows out and manifests itself. You're not becoming a Sorceror and all of a sudden gaining a bloodline ability.
More like your fighter has manifested something thats been in him and his family bloodline for ages. And now he is pursueing that innate ability by becoming a Sorceror (the only way to explore and strenghten bloodline abilities).
Bloodlines have nothing to do with races, I see them as family heritage... or genetic anomolies. Either way, they are passed down through the family tree. And just like lots of other things passed down through a family tree, it can skip generations. Someone can even have it, and never know it... or never have it manifest. Kinda like wild magic, its unperdictable.
Of course this means that Sorcerors are born the way they are, with bloodline abilities inside them. But they still have to choose to use that power, even after it manifests. If you dont choose too use it, you never learn how to use it to its full potential. Your born a sorceror, but you have to choose (pick the class)to pursue that path with your life to get the fullest out of it.
Furthermore, there are races whose favored class is sorcerer (thinking of for example, wild elves in Faerun) that don't attribute their being sorcerers to some long buried bloodline, they're just.... wild elves, and they are natural-born sorcerers. Do I then have to make up a bloodline of my own? and retrofit all my NPCs?
Sounds like an opportunity to me, not a problem! Everyone loves more bloodlines. If you don't have time yourself, start a new thread on Paizo asking for help, and you're sure to end up with a useable Faerun Wild Elf bloodline in no time.
Furthermore, there are races whose favored class is sorcerer (thinking of for example, wild elves in Faerun) that don't attribute their being sorcerers to some long buried bloodline, they're just.... wild elves, and they are natural-born sorcerers. Do I then have to make up a bloodline of my own? and retrofit all my NPCs?Sounds like an opportunity to me, not a problem! Everyone loves more bloodlines. If you don't have time yourself, start a new thread on Paizo asking for help, and you're sure to end up with a useable Faerun Wild Elf bloodline in no time.
Not to mention that you can easily just say that most Wild Elves have the Arcane or Destined bloodlines, neither of which actually assume you have any particularly odd heritage. Just that you're either naturally in tune with magic or somehow meant for greater things. Both of those are perfectly valid with the existing fluff and crunch.
Heck, assume that any sorcerers you don't want to restat have the Arcane bloodline, and you're about 75% done retrofitting them. No big change. Slap a few bonus feats, some extra utility spells known, and a faster metamagic ability on them and Bob's your uncle.
Not to mention that you can easily just say that most Wild Elves have the Arcane or Destined bloodlines, neither of which actually assume you have any particularly odd heritage. Just that you're either naturally in tune with magic or somehow meant for greater things. Both of those are perfectly valid with the existing fluff and crunch.
Well elves are in many mythos considered fey so the fey bloodline wouldn't be out of the question either. I know this isn't the D&D standpoint but it's pretty common.
Also, as said Sakura said, the arcane bloodline is pretty darned close to the existing Sorcerer class.
Multiclassing into sorcerers has always been a problem for me as a DM. In the PHB they talk about how a sorceror's magic is natural, manifesting during the sorceror's youth. So yeah, how do you explain the 8th level Fighter suddenly realizing he's natural magic?
Basically anyone able to achieve a high enough Charisma some way 10+ for cantrips and 11+ for first level spells has the latent potential to become a sorcerer.
The L8 Fighter could have had it awakened on an adventurer by a creature or magic item or local magical effect or made a deal with a sorcerer to awakenen his sorcereous potential.
Shoot a Fighter - 8, Sorcerer - 1 with a normal Charisma of 6 who possesses a +6 Cloak of Charisma could be trained to cast spells as long as he possesses an item that boosts his charisma like the cloak losing spellcasting when losing the benefits of the item.
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Anyone else remember the 'Yamara' strip in Dragon?
One episode, the monsters are sitting around playing cards, waiting for their number to come up on the wandering monster rota. Joe Cleric bursts in, turns most of them, leaving 'the ghoul'...
"Hey, how come the mummy and the wight ran away, but I'm still here?"
...
"Is this thing on?"
"Wow, I'm a LICH!"
"You know what this means man... Treasure Type A!"
"No one escapes the Drow Package Tour!"
"My tour guide has taken over the world?!"
"Vote for Yochhi.. where everyone wins!"
I knew the real life Yamara, she and the artist used to be a mainstay at Double Exposure conventions she's just as witty, and a good deal taller as her comic book incarnation. And in terms of the money deals she works with, she may be one of the most powerful women on the planet. So bowing down and worshipping her may not be a bad move after all. :)
Don't forget the potion of halfling control that Ogert picked up looting the dungeon department store. They gift wrap.
I can explain the exact problem. It only happens if you multiclass to Sorcerer. It will never happen any other way. For example, Great granddad got it on with an angel, and I happen to be a cleric of that angel's deity. But my bloodline does not kick in until I take sorcerer. That makes no sense. And my character was 36 years old when he did! 36 years no signs... then boom."The Unschooled Wizard" is an excellent book by Barbara Hambly about a story almost identical to what you describe. It's about an older mercenary who comes into his magical power late in life. The story is a very nice foil to the classic wizard "coming of age" stories.
Another classic example which is likely more well known is Durnick from the Belgariad. He spends most of the book in a role as ranger/ fighter only to be granted magic at the end of the story.
What triggers latent genes and who gets affected is hard to predict in real life, I don't see why in game it would be any different. Look at real life genetic diseases and the way it often seems random and gets expressed sometimes very late in life.
-- Dennis
Yes, I am late to the dance as it were but I have to chime in to Krome's gripe, no matter how old it is. Ogre and the pro-Sorc faction have the right of it, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a character displaying some bloodline oddities later in their evolution...and that is that, if you do not like it do not play it. I hate Bards with a passion, so I do not play them but I do not think they need to be removed from the selection of Classes. Besides, as a GM, they are fun to slaughter as they have a proclivity to yodel as they are disemboweled.
Then again, Krome has come over to our side...I guess it was just something in my blood that made me speak up ;P
I love this phrase "In all honesty this smacks of stuff from 4E. So why not just play 4E?". It gets bandied about all over the place when people want to send up red flags about something without any real logic. What if (lord forbid) 4e got something right? Should we avoid that as well because it smacks of 4e?
Incidentally if you read the class description in the PHB the fluff in there talks about dragon blood. There are also sorcerer bloodlines in several of the splat books, as an example Heros of Horror has a "Fiend Blooded" PrC. The concept predates 4e by some time.
Cheers to that, well said Ogre.
Story wise, you apparently don't have a problem with waking up one morning and being able to cast magic missile 3 times a day, and disrupt undead 6 times a day.
However, you do have a problem with the flavour text of some other of the mysterious new abilities you've suddenly developed on a whim.
How about if you suddenly became a barbarian? Would that give you a problem too?
Nicely done.
Fixing The Sorcerer:
3.5's Sorcerer became a joke after the introduction of the Warmage...or so I am of the opinion. Looking forward, I still see the Alpha 3 version as the weaker of the 2 arcane mages (particularly at higher levels). I know there are 101 suggestions scattered across 1001 boards about how to make the Sorcerer a better, stand alone class but I don't see the longevity of this class should PF introduce a Warmage-like class down the road, that is of course if your Sorc is to be of the more battle-ready sort (the Wiz obviously not geared in this direction at early levels).
What the Sorcerer needs:
I would change their armor limitations and/or improve their access to a higher AC. Perhaps some Bonus Feat (at an earlier level) for armor use would be nice or they could have their armor selection be Bloodline based as either a Offensive or Defensive choice (since not all players care to have an armored mage). This would allow the player to move their caster into more of a frontlines style player that the Wizard just cannot compete with (at early levels) and could still work with the Bloodlines. It could play nicely into the Sorcerer's gradual augmentation into something uniquely evolved. Say at 3rd level, a Gnome Sorc with the Aberrant Bloodline choses to be a bit less Long in the Limb and more defensive with something like "Slippery Skin" a viscous acidic ooze that provides a +2 to AC and maybe even causes a bit of damage...just an idea. This would require an Offensive and Defensive Bloodline progression selection...sorry authors.
Also, 1d6 claws are nice for a few levels but are fairly useless at say level 15...am I wrong? If you are going to grow claws, have some way to make this body manipulation remain relevant through every level.
1.) Give the sorcerer a +1 bonus to caster level at level 4, and an extra +1 bonus every 4 levels after. (at level 8, 12, 16, and 20)2.) Give the sorcerer's bloodlines, spell descriptor(s) for each bloodline that gives the sorcerer a +1 bonus to caster level when the sorcerer casts a spell with a matching descriptor as the one (or more) found in their bloodline. This stacks with the caster level bonus found in number 1. (Example: A sorcerer with the Celestial bloodline casts spells with the good descriptor with +1 to caster level, one with the Elemental bloodline: (Air) casts spells with electricity descriptor at a +1 caster level, and so on)
3.) Add a bloodline ability at levels 6, 12, and 18.
And not so much a problem but the level 20 transformation bloodline abilities are typed as supernatural, which means that they can be suppressed. I don't understand why you would revert back to normal just walking into a antimagic field after transforming into part dragon or fey or whatever your bloodline is. I would change them to an extraordinary ability.
There is some nice thinking there BM, well done, I am largely in favor of all of the above ideas. Also, I think it would play nicely in their favor if their Bloodline could manipulate their Known Spells. Like the 3.5 Warlock being able to blast away with Eldritch power, I think the Sorc should be able to tap into their inherent unusual powers within and augment their known spells in a unique fashion as dictated by their Bloodline (Like the Druid's Spontaneous Casting). Again with the above Gnome Sorc, perhaps his/her Aberrant Bloodline would allow some sort of summoning selection (Summon Aberrant Ally) or acidic spell substitute?
Lastly, how to bring back the familiar: Well, don't...but do. Rather than have another class of mage with a wily Raven friend (CAAAH!!!) have them have some pact with something to do with their Bloodline. The Dragon Magic book had a PrC, Pact-Bound Adept, that was a fair example of what I am talking about. The Gnome Sorc with Aberrant Bloodline has some weak bond with Nyarlathotep or Hastor that grows over his/her levels...granting him/her familiar-like bonuses (Celestial=angel, Draconic=dragon, etc). In this instance the Sorc's familiar would not be physically present but rather weakly linked in someway, adding to the mystique of the Sorcerer.
And that is about enough from me.
The F
**Pasted from a previous PF post with some revisions.**
Howdy, all.
I'm not sure how many of you were over on the WotC boards when this happened, but a few years ago, there was a HUGE explosion of sorcerer fixes, out of which came one I helped put together: the Composite Sorcerer Fix. Unfortunately, the thread seems to have been archived into obscurity, so I can't find it anymore, but fortunately, I saved a copy of the class. Obviously, a lot of the changes aren't relevant to Pathfinder (the Cantrippery ability, for example), but I'm posting it as we left it all those years ago. (I also left in most of the formatting stuff, largely because taking it out is problematic and difficult):
Composite Sorcerer
This sorcerer is an attempt to follow the flavor of the PHB’s sorcerer with as few changes as possible while maintaining balance with respect to the other Primary Casters. It is the combined work of everyone who posted on the [thread=199655]Discussing Things with Skip Williams[/thread] thread, as well as this one (to a greater or lesser extent).
[color=blue][size=+1]Game Rule Information[/color][/size]
Sorcerers (Sor) have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma is a very important characteristic for sorcerers, as it dictates their prowess as spellcasters and their skill in manipulation and influence. High Dexterity and Constitution also greatly benefit the Sorcerer.
Base Attack Bonus: Poor (as in the PHB).
Hit Die: d4.
Saves: Good Will / Poor Fortitude and Reflex.
Class Skills: The Sorcerer’s class skills are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier (x4 at 1st level).
Alignment: Any.
Starting Age: As in the PHB.
Starting Gold: As in the PHB.
[color=blue][size=+1]Class Features[/color][/size]
All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or with shields.
Natural Spellcasting: (Note: Changes to the PHB sorcerer are [color=blue]in blue[/color].) A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be new, unique spells that the sorcerer has discovered inside himself (learning a spell not in the Player's Handbook requires the DM's approval).
Upon reaching 3th level, and at every odd-numbered sorcerer level after that (5th, 7th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
[color=blue]Sorcerer magic comes solely from within. They cannot use a material component or focus of any kind (except in special circumstances, such as Fabricate or Trap the Soul, where the material component or focus is a part of the spell effect). They completely ignore material components and foci that do not have listed prices (but only for sorcerer spells) and pay 1/5th the gp cost of material components and 1/50th the gp cost of foci in XP each time they cast the spell.
Similarly, Sorcerers cannot cast spells off scrolls, which use a method of casting that is completely alien to the way sorcerers use magic. However, they can learn how to use scrolls. By taking the Scribe Scroll feat, the Sorcerer also gains the ability to cast off of scrolls.[/color]
Thematic Spell: Every sorcerer expresses a slightly different style of spellcasting, that forms a signature theme. He is more effective when casting spells strongly linked to it and imbues all of his spells with it to some degree.
A sorcerer chooses his theme at 1st level. A theme comprises three components. The first component is a set of spells central to his theme. A sorcerer chooses one such spell at 1st level and another one at each even sorcerer level. He casts these thematic spells at +1 caster level.
The second component is a special visual and/or auditory effect that all of his thematic spells share, such as “fire,” “ice,” “screaming skulls,” or “pink bunnies eating nachos.” The special effect may be dramatic or subtle, but it does not actually make the spells more or less noticeable. It does not change the spell statistics in any way, other than enhancing the caster level. For example, if the sorcerer’s theme is “fire,” then his magic missile spell might appear to produce bolts of fire, although the bolts are still a force effect and cause normal damage, not fire damage. If the theme is “screaming skulls,” the sorcerer’s fly spell might manifest as a dozen small screaming skulls that orbit him, bearing him aloft. The special effect may replace the appearance of a standard spell description, or merely accompany it. For example, if the theme is “pink bunnies eating nachos”, then a fireball spell might show a bunch of cheese-covered rabbits flying outward from the center of a standard ball of fire.
The third component of a theme is a special effect that alters the sorcerer’s own appearance while casting any spell, whether thematic or not. He might display a corona of red light, his hair and clothes could billow wildly, an eerie whistling sound may be heard, or any effect resonating his theme.
Alternatively, a sorcerer may choose the “default effect” for his thematic spells and/or his appearance, and not alter their look or sound. He still casts the thematic spells at +1 caster level.
A sorcerer with a special effect other than “default” may attempt a Spellcraft check at DC 5 + spell level to cast a spell without the special effect. (Failure means that he casts the spell with it).
Sorcery: Through practice and experimentation, a Sorcerer learns to perfect various aspects of his magic. At levels 2, 8, 14, and 20, a Sorcerer gains a bonus ability, selected from the following list. Unless otherwise stated, each ability may be taken muliple times:
- Cantrippery. Choose one 0-level spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. You may now cast this spell at will.
- Bonus Feat: The sorcerer may choose any one feat from the following list as a bonus feat in place of a Sorcerery. The sorcerer must meet all prerequisites of a feat in order to take it as normal: Arcane Ray, Arcane Intensity, Armored Arcana, Improved Arcane Intensity, Greater Arcane Intensity (all below), or any metamagic feat.
- Extra Spells. The sorcerer learnes two spells of any spell level he can cast from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The spells chosen cannot be Epic spells.
- Fast Metamagic: Metamagic may be applied to spontaneously cast spells without increasing the casting time. This applies to metamagic rods and to spontaneously cast spells from other classes. This ability may only be taken once. [size=1]Note: Remove this option from the sorcerer's list of available Sorceries if you use the suggest errata below regarding Metamagic Time Increases.[/size]
- Improved Natural Spellcasting: When casting a Sorcerer spell that would normally have a costly material component or focus, but instead has an XP component due to Natural Spellcasting, you spend only half as much XP. You spend XP equal to 1/10th the gold cost of a material component, and equal to 1/100th the value of a costly focus. This ability may only be taken once.
- Increased Spell Capacity. You treat your Charisma as if it were 4 points higher for the purposes of determining bonus spells per day. You may take this Sorcery multiple times. Its effects stack. [size=1](For example, Hennet chooses Increased Spell Capacity twice. He treats his Charisma modifer as if it were 8 points higher than it actually is when determining his bonus number of spells per day)[/size]
- Sorcerous Skill: When you select this Sorcery, choose one skill. If that skill is a Sorcerer class skill, you receive Skill Focus with that skill as a bonus feat. Otherwise, the skill becomes a class skill for the Sorcerer class. In either case, add up to 4 ranks to your ability in that skill, not exceeding the normal maximum number of ranks.
- Spell Insight: Select a School when this feat is taken. Once per day, the Sorcerer may attempt to cast an unknown Sorcerer spell from this school, as though it were on her list of known spells. This check is 1d20 + Caster Level + Charisma bonus, and the DC is equal to 10 + Spell Level*3. This ability may be selected more than once. Each time, either a new school may be selected, or the same school may be selected again.
Summon Familiar: As per the PHB Wizard ability of the same name, but the Sorcerer must pay 20 XP instead of 100 gp.
[color=blue]Table: Sorcerer Spells per Day[/color]
[code]
Level Spells per Day
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - -
2 4 3 - - - - - - - -
3 4 3 1 - - - - - - -
4 4 4 2 - - - - - - -
5 4 4 2 1 - - - - - -
6 4 4 3 2 - - - - - -
7 4 4 3 2 1 - - - - -
8 4 4 4 3 2 - - - - -
9 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - - -
10 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - -
11 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
12 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - -
13 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
14 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - -
15 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
16 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 -
17 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1
18 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2
19 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3
20 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
[/code]
[color=blue]Table: Sorcerer Spells Known[/color]
[code]
Level Spells Known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - -
3 6 3 1 - - - - - - -
4 6 4 2 - - - - - - -
5 7 4 2 1 - - - - - -
6 7 5 3 2 - - - - - -
7 8 5 3 2 1 - - - - -
8 8 6 4 3 2 - - - - -
9 9 6 4 3 2 1 - - - -
10 9 6 5 4 3 2 - - - -
11 9 6 5 4 3 2 1 - - -
12 9 6 6 5 4 3 2 - - -
13 9 6 6 5 4 3 2 1 - -
14 9 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 - -
15 9 6 6 5 5 4 3 2 1 -
16 9 6 6 5 5 4 4 3 2 -
17 9 6 6 5 5 5 4 3 2 1
18 9 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 2
19 9 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 3 3
20 9 6 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 4
[/code]
[color=blue][size=+2]N[/size][size=+1]EW[/size] [size=+2]F[/size][size=+1]EATS[/size][/color]
[color=blue][size=+1]ARCANE RAY[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
You can radiate a deadly arcane force.
Prerequisite: Sorcerer level 1, expend one 1st-level Sorcerer Spell Known slot.
Benefit: You gain a supernatural ability to fire a ray of Force as an attack action (and thus may fire multiple rays as a full attack action if you have a high enough Base Attack Bonus). Each ray deals 1d4 + 1 per four caster levels in damage on a succesful touch attack, and have a range of 10 feet * your Charisma bonus. The ray is Thematic. Choose its visual and auditory display when you take this feat.
[color=blue][size=+1]ARCANE INTENSITY[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
The intensity of your Arcane Rays increases by expending spell energies.
Prerequisite: Arcane Ray.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can expend a spell slot to add damage equal to 1d6 * the spell level to a single Arcane Ray.
[color=blue][size=+1]ARMORED ARCANA[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
You know how to deal with the encumberance of armor, unlike other casters.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 1st level Arcane Spells
Benefit: You ignore 10% of the arcane spell failure of armor or shields in which you are proficient.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
[color=blue][size=+1]IMPROVED ARCANE INTENSITY[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
Your Arcane Rays become even more powerful.
Prerequisite: Arcane Ray, Arcane Intensity.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can expend a spell slot to add damage equal to 2d6 * the spell level to a single Arcane Ray.
[color=blue][size=+1]GREATER ARCANE INTENSITY[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
Your Arcane Rays have reached the zenith of their power.
Prerequisite: Arcane Ray, Arcane Intensity, Improved Arcane Intensity.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can expend a spell slot to add damage equal to 3d6 * the spell level to a single Arcane Ray.
[color=blue][size=+2]S[/size][size=+1]UGGESTED[/size] [size=+2]E[/size][size=+1]RRATA[/size][/color]
In order to better perfect the balance issues between the Wizard and Sorcerer, we now make the following suggestions for rule changes.
- Feats (PHB):
Change Quicken Spell to the following.
[color=blue][size=+1]QUICKEN SPELL[/color] [GENERAL][/size]
You can cast a spell much more quickly than usual.
Benefit: Once per day, you may change the casting time of a spell to a swift action. You may only use this feat to quicken spells that normally have a casting time of one round or less. You may perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you may quicken one more spell per day.
- Feat Rules:
Metamagic Feats
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Delete: [u]But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.[/u]
Add: [u]Clerics and Druids:[/u] Delete: [u]Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats[/u]: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell Add: [u]or a Druid a summon nature's ally spell[/u] can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Delete: [u]Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast.[/u]
- Magic Items (DMG): "Metamagic Rods of Quicken" are now just "Rods of Quicken." Leave them the same as they are now, but reduce the number of times per day you can use any given rod to only one use per day per rod.
MAGIC ITEMS III (POTIONS, RINGS, & RODS), SRD:
Metamagic Rods: ... Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. Delete: [u]A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses.[/u]
Anyway, the key changes are as follows (moving from most to least important):
1. Match wizard spell progression (2nd level spells at 3rd level, 3rd and 5th, 4th at 7th, etc). There's really no good reason for sorcerers to have staggered spellcasting. All it does is paint them as second-class casters, which the game shouldn't push. It's bad enough the core setting suggests that sorcerers are arbitrarily hated.
2. More spells known / fewer spells per day. The sorcerer has suffocatingly few spells known, and just one more per level really, really helps.
3. Make the metamagic time increase go away with little pain. It's also arbitrary. It's ok for sorcerers to be good at metamagic. At the very, very least, let Quicken Spell affect the casting time after the increase instead of before (in other words, so the Sorcerer can actually use it).
4. Take away all material components, as well as scroll use (giving make scroll use if they take Scribe Scroll). "I have this inborn power, but for some reason I need a chunk of onyx to use it. Oh, and it's real handy I happened to be wandering through an onyx quarry when it manifested. It's also awesome how I know how to read all those funny lookin' squiggles despite having just wandered out of the bush."
Those were the big 4, though I really, really liked how Thematic spell worked out: it was an easy-to-balance way of making each and every sorcerer distinctive and fun. Anyway, thanks!
Anyway, the key changes are as follows (moving from most to least important):
1. Match wizard spell progression (2nd level spells at 3rd level, 3rd and 5th, 4th at 7th, etc). There's really no good reason for sorcerers to have staggered spellcasting. All it does is paint them as second-class casters, which the game shouldn't push. It's bad enough the core setting suggests that sorcerers are arbitrarily hated.
2. More spells known / fewer spells per day. The sorcerer has suffocatingly few spells known, and just one more per level really, really helps.
3. Make the metamagic time increase go away with little pain. It's also arbitrary. It's ok for sorcerers to be good at metamagic. At the very, very least, let Quicken Spell affect the casting time after the increase instead of before (in other words, so the Sorcerer can actually use it).
4. Take away all material components, as well as scroll use (giving make scroll use if they take Scribe Scroll). "I have this inborn power, but for some reason I need a chunk of onyx to use it. Oh, and it's real handy I happened to be wandering through an onyx quarry when it manifested. It's also awesome how I know how to read all those funny lookin' squiggles despite having just wandered out of the bush."
#1 will probably not happen, although I agree that it wouldn't be problematic.
#2 has sort of been addressed; a sorcerer gets one bonus spell of each spell level based on his bloodline.
#3 is going to be addressed, sort of; Jason strongly implied that sorcerers will get to use Quicken Spell. I don't really care about the full round metamagic otherwise, although I'd get rid of it altogether.
#4 has sort of been addressed too, via Eschew Components. If you don't want your sorcerer using scrolls, don't take any ranks in Spellcraft or the cantrip Read Magic. Or just don't use them.
Fixing The Sorcerer:
3.5's Sorcerer became a joke after the introduction of the Warmage...or so I am of the opinion.
I've heard this fairly hotly debated on the WotC forums, I seem to recall a thread on the char opt. board that said warmage blew the sorcerer's goats or some-such. I've yet to read the Warmage Class so I personally have no opinion though. Personally I think the PRPG fix for this class does a pretty decent job of addressing the classes weaknesses and adding a decent amount of flavor to help roleplaying.
]What the Sorcerer needs:
I would change their armor limitations and/or improve their access to a higher AC. Perhaps some Bonus Feat (at an earlier level) for armor use would be nice or they could have their armor selection be Bloodline based as either a Offensive or Defensive choice (since not all players care to have an armored mage). This would allow the player to move their caster into more of a frontlines style player that the Wizard just cannot compete with (at early levels) and could still work with the Bloodlines.
There are several bloodlines that grant a +1/+2/+4 natural armor bonus at 3rd, 9th, and 15th levels respectively. If you are interested in a melee type sorcerer those are probably a good bet. The bloodlines with natural armor coincidentally are the ones with claw attacks which make decent melee weapons. You can add the armored casting feat on top to wear leather also.
Also, 1d6 claws are nice for a few levels but are fairly useless at say level 15...am I wrong? If you are going to grow claws, have some way to make this body manipulation remain relevant through every level.
I agree that 1d6 is not relevant at 15th level. However at 15th level the claws do 1d8+1d6 energy damage. Not stellar but keep in mind that a melee sorcerer will be using spells to boost his power. Sorcerer's are never going to compete with fighters or rogues in melee. Enlarge Person would help boost the claw damage a bit also.
And not so much a problem but the level 20 transformation bloodline abilities are typed as supernatural, which means that they can be suppressed. I don't understand why you would revert back to normal just walking into a antimagic field after transforming into part dragon or fey or whatever your bloodline is. I would change them to an extraordinary ability.
Transformation Bloodline?
Lastly, how to bring back the familiar: Well, don't...but do. Rather than have another class of mage with a wily Raven friend (CAAAH!!!) have them have some pact with something to do with their Bloodline.
I'm not a big familiar fan, the only way you can keep the familiar is by taking the arcane bloodline which is kind of bland flavor wise.
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I seem to recall a thread on the char opt. board that said warmage blew the sorcerer's goats or some-such. I've yet to read the Warmage Class so I personally have no opinion though.
The warmage, the beguiler, and the dread necromancer are all three d6-hit-die, light-armor-wearing spontaneous arcane casters with actual class abilities and tightly defined themes. They know more than 2-4 spells per level - typically, it's around a dozen or so - and they know them all at once, there's no wait period once they can access the necessary spell level. They can also add a few spells of suitable types from beyond their given class lists as they go up in levels.
These days, the gap between the sorcerer and these later spontaneous casters is much smaller than it used to be. d6 hit dice is no big deal, and Arcane Armor Training can close the gap somewhat with AC if the sorcerer wants to go there. The bloodlines give class abilities and additional spells known, and sorcerers maintain a flexibility that the others can't quite manage. The warmage, beguiler and dread necromancer may still be arguably better classes, but it's nowhere as clear-cut a decision as it used to be.
I seem to recall a thread on the char opt. board that said warmage blew the sorcerer's goats or some-such. I've yet to read the Warmage Class so I personally have no opinion though.The warmage, the beguiler, and the dread necromancer are all three d6-hit-die, light-armor-wearing spontaneous arcane casters with actual class abilities and tightly defined themes. They know more than 2-4 spells per level - typically, it's around a dozen or so - and they know them all at once, there's no wait period once they can access the necessary spell level. They can also add a few spells of suitable types from beyond their given class lists as they go up in levels.
So... If you want exactly what the Warmage or Beguiler give you then you are much better at taking those classes. If you want something else, maybe a little more flexible then you go sorcerer. I can deal with that.
I like the compromise that the new sorcerer gives you. The bloodline ability and bonus spells give you a bit of flavor and a theme but the spell system is still flexible enough to give you the options. Maybe it can't out warmage a warmage but it is much more flexible.
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So... If you want exactly what the Warmage or Beguiler give you then you are much better at taking those classes. If you want something else, maybe a little more flexible then you go sorcerer. I can deal with that.
One of the things that is most commonly said about the warmage, beguiler and dread necromancer is that you should not put one in your group and say, "Now we've got the arcanist slot covered." The sorcerer can do that, but the others are too focused. There is definitely a trade-off with them, for all that I really love all three classes.
I seem to recall a thread on the char opt. board that said warmage blew the sorcerer's goats or some-such. I've yet to read the Warmage Class so I personally have no opinion though.The warmage, the beguiler, and the dread necromancer are all three d6-hit-die, light-armor-wearing spontaneous arcane casters with actual class abilities and tightly defined themes. They know more than 2-4 spells per level - typically, it's around a dozen or so - and they know them all at once, there's no wait period once they can access the necessary spell level. They can also add a few spells of suitable types from beyond their given class lists as they go up in levels.
These days, the gap between the sorcerer and these later spontaneous casters is much smaller than it used to be. d6 hit dice is no big deal, and Arcane Armor Training can close the gap somewhat with AC if the sorcerer wants to go there. The bloodlines give class abilities and additional spells known, and sorcerers maintain a flexibility that the others can't quite manage. The warmage, beguiler and dread necromancer may still be arguably better classes, but it's nowhere as clear-cut a decision as it used to be.
Thanks, I was going to write something very similar in reply to Ogre but you nailed the key points.
Ogre: I know you don't like 'em but on the topic of a familiar...maybe there can be a Bloodline option or something so that the familiar is optional. I do like the idea of having a familiar, though making the Sorc's critter unique/different from the Wiz's is more appealing than just having another caster with a beastie. Like being an Abyssal Bloodline Sorc and having either a link to a lesser Demon that grants bonuses to say intimidate and sometimes can be channeled to make touch attacks would be cool....or having some little spawn of the Abyss as a pet....that would be cool too.
Ogre: I know you don't like 'em but on the topic of a familiar...maybe there can be a Bloodline option or something so that the familiar is optional. I do like the idea of having a familiar, though making the Sorc's critter unique/different from the Wiz's is more appealing than just having another caster with a beastie. Like being an Abyssal Bloodline Sorc and having either a link to a lesser Demon that grants bonuses to say intimidate and sometimes can be channeled to make touch attacks would be cool....or having some little spawn of the Abyss as a pet....that would be cool too.
I'm not a fan of familiars, however I know other people are and the game isn't just about me (it's only mostly about me). A bloodline or 3 that had a nice familiar would be a cool idea. Maybe a bat that automagically gets upgraded to an Improved familiar at 5th level (da dum dum I'm here til Tuesday). A little basketball sized micro-beholder would be cool for the Abberant bloodline ;)
Ogre: I know you don't like 'em but on the topic of a familiar...maybe there can be a Bloodline option or something so that the familiar is optional. I do like the idea of having a familiar, though making the Sorc's critter unique/different from the Wiz's is more appealing than just having another caster with a beastie. Like being an Abyssal Bloodline Sorc and having either a link to a lesser Demon that grants bonuses to say intimidate and sometimes can be channeled to make touch attacks would be cool....or having some little spawn of the Abyss as a pet....that would be cool too.I'm not a fan of familiars, however I know other people are and the game isn't just about me (it's only mostly about me). A bloodline or 3 that had a nice familiar would be a cool idea. Maybe a bat that automagically gets upgraded to an Improved familiar at 5th level (da dum dum I'm here til Tuesday). A little basketball sized micro-beholder would be cool for the Abberant bloodline ;)
I know it is meant to be funny...but I like the wee-bitty-beholder idea...like a "Bumble Bee-Holder" (Thank you San Diego..and good night).
See the Monsters of Faerun for Eyeball stats. It can be picked as familiar with Improved Familiar feat by a 5th level spellcaster.
You could also have it as familiar in Neverwinter Nights (one of the expansions was needed).
I get the sense that there might not be many on board for this, but I've always thought that Sorcerers's spells known should be affected by high Charisma.
My understanding of the balance between Sorcerers and Wizards is that Wizards get infinte spells known, which the Sorcerer gets a very limited list, but this is balanced by the fact that Sorcerers get a couple more spells to cast per spell level per day. So, it seems unfair to me that most Wizards get to cut their negative vs. Sorcerers on spells per day in half with a high ability score, but Sorcerers can't make out with even one more spell known per level per day when the Wizard's selection is infinitely greater.
Also, I don't think the extra spells from the bloodlines necessarily remedy this deficiency, as both classes get extra abilities as they increase in level: bloodlines for sorcerors and specialist powers for wizards. If the bloodlines balance the fact that wizards get bonus spells, then suddenly there's nothing to balance their additional extra powers for specialist school.
(BTW, good to see you Blainetog, I always thought you had good ideas on the WOTC boards).