Oh, one thing: To show your allegience, rename yourself: OneWingedAng3l ;-)Bah! It was 4e that plagiarized ME! That whole 4dventure thing was MINE first! You hear me? MINE! I made that (admittedly stupid) joke years before WotC but up its "surprise" website screen saying "get ready for 4dventure!" or whatever it was.
XD
Preach on Brother!
Welcome aboard.
Welcome OneWinged4ngel! I had typed hello before, but somehow the Thread Slaad ate the posting (nasty thing).Sorry, somebody stole my lunch money.
LOL
As a minor threadjack, best Alias Eva!
Hey all, this is OneWinged4ngel. It's been a while since I've really been active in the D&D community (some may remember I pretty much abandoned the WotC boards and deleted most of my content when I became aware of a certain line in WotC's user agreement), but I'm sure some of you remember me from the WotC forums for my articles and homebrewed content, like the Rebalanced Paladin or the Philosophy of Class Design.
I've recently gotten all the 4e books in hand, and been thoroughly disappointed, as have many of my friends, for a variety of reasons I won't recount here. One of them suggested that I take a closer look at Pathfinder, particularly since it has this whole "public feedback development" thing going, and a notably different design philosophy from WotC. Looking through the Alpha 3, I was a bit surprised to see some of my own rules implemented in there for the paladin and a few other sections. I was also very pleasantly surprised by the superb quality of the art layout by artists like Wayne Reynolds that captured the fantastic feel of D&D that I had always envisioned, as opposed to the lackluster, wannabe "XTREME" vibe 4e seems to give off, and encouraged by some of the editors notes, such as saying "the simplification sacrifices some of the versatility of the game, which is a BAD thing." A philosophy that 4e D&D, sadly, does not seem to share.
So, now, I'm reading through the alpha, getting acquainted with the new ideas and concepts running around, some of which I like, some I don't, and considering contributing my game design experience and throwing in my 2 coppers on the whole development process. Guess I'm just here to say hi and introduce myself. Hopefully get a better feel for this community and the project going on here. Forgive me if it's the wrong forum; obviously, I'm new here ;)
So, hello everyone!
Welcome to Paizo! I remember many a time that you threw a flaming match into the powder keg of the WotC forums.
TS
As a recent refugee from the WotC boards myself I feel your pain.
I'm also, sadly, an FR refugee as well... 4e didn't just kill the rules.
I hope you find Pathfinder as exciting and inspiring as I have these last few weeks - Welcome to the Paizo boards, and the true successor to D&D.
The Beta will go through TEN MONTHS of playtesting before the final is released - plenty of time for you to pitch in.
Hey, my fellow player/DM in my weekly game showed me your rebalanced paladin- it's replaced the regular paladin in the games where he wears the big hat. I look forward to your input here.
Creative Director
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*Sigh* I'm hearing though, that the beta is coming out soon, and with that, everything's near final. I'm afraid I may have come too late to really put in any significant input :(
In fact... the next year or so is actually when input is the most important. The playtest process is going to switch once the Beta's out; it's going to move from the big stuff (does this change to skills work? Do you like sorcerer bloodlines) to the actual "does this game play well?" side of things.
Nothing is near final, in other words. We hunger for input like zombies for BRAIIIINS!
EDIT: Oh! And welcome to the boards, OneWinged4ngel! :)
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Or I could use my move action to move over to where Lilith is offering all those cookies and use my standard action to try a disarm attempt (unarmed of course) so I can grab those cookie! It's Friday, and Lisa needs a sugar rush! :)
-Lisa
Chocolate-covered babe-fighting!
Now I know why I hang out here!
*warms up her dice for the Cookie Cage Match*
Eh, nah. I'm generous. I have plenty of virtual cookies for everybody! :D
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Creative Director
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If I start going over how the Bard class designs can be tweaked, or how craft can be overhauled to make it cool, or how skill systems work, or how the weapons and armor system can be opened up and more fighting styles be facilitated, or how the versatility of the game "engine" can improve, WILL IT MATTER? Or will I just be wasting my breath? I'm brimming with ideas, but I'm getting the feeling that it won't matter one whit more than if I was making suggestions for 4e.
It might matter, actually. There's PLENTY in the Beta that I personally think went too far or didn't go far enough that I'm going to be playtesting over the next year and then offering suggestions to. Suggestions like "Make 20 levels of spells to match each character level) or "Rework feats to function on a point-based system more like skills" aren't helpful though; remember that even though the Pathfinder RPG is a new game, its largest design goal is to maintain ease of use and conversion to 3.5. That's why I maintain that the upcoming round of beta testing (as opposed to the alpha testing) is so important. Truth is... we already KNOW what kind of game we think Pathfinder should be: It has to be a set of rules that lets us write adventures and adventure paths the way we have been. Huge changes that would have made writing Rise of the Runelords or Savage Tide or Age of Worms too onerous (or worse, would have transformed the themes and feel of the adventures into something else) are not what we want.
In any case, we will indeed be listening to and reading all of the playtest comments, and often interacting with playtesters via these boards or email or at conventions.
*peeks his large mouth in*
Did anybody say cookies?
*sniff, sniff*
Do I smell cookies?
Oh, one thing: To show your allegience, rename yourself: OneWingedAng3l ;-)
*chews a whole load of fresh, hot cookies no one knows where they came from*
Heym.. myou.. coumd.. evem.. name.. myourself..
*swallows loudly*
"On3Wing3dAng3l"
That'll be 3 times 3, you know!
*nudge, nudge*
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Creative Director
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Suggestions like "Make 20 levels of spells to match each character level) or "Rework feats to function on a point-based system more like skills" aren't helpful though; remember that even though the Pathfinder RPG is a new game, its largest design goal is to maintain ease of use and conversion to 3.5. That's why I maintain that the upcoming round of beta testing (as opposed to the alpha testing) is so important. Truth is... we already KNOW what kind of game we think Pathfinder should be: It has to be a set of rules that lets us write adventures and adventure paths the way we have been. Huge changes that would have made writing Rise of the Runelords or Savage Tide or Age of Worms too onerous (or worse, would have transformed the themes and feel of the adventures into something else) are not what we want.And I've never had any intention of making any suggestions remotely like that. Heh.
Well then! My suspicion is that the suggestions you're interested in making will be exactly the type that we'll be hoping and looking for during the Beta playtest. Everyone wins! :)
Anyone guess my favourite D&D edition?
Welcome OneWinged4ngel! I used to frequent the WotC boards a lot more (under the alias angellis_ater) before, but times do change.
I think you should make this time before the Beta is released (in about 2 months) to get all of those GREAT ideas out there as soon as possible. Get people's attention and perhaps even mail Jason one or two of those ideas if they're VERY good AND compatible with the basic premises behind Pathfinder.
Dreamscarred Press is looking forward to supporting Pathfinder, once we get a chance to show compatability. We've already been inspired (which can be seen in our Third Dawn Campaign Setting racial stats).
Anyone guess my favourite D&D edition?gnOmeD&D???
Gno, but close.
*Sigh,* indeed they do. Intelligent voices were rare enough on the WotC boards before, but they've seemed to trickle out to nigh nonexistence now. The old vets seem to be an increasingly rare sight around there, though I do see some posting from time to time.
Now why could that be? :D
No, let me counter-address some of your addresses with what I came up with so far:
-Weapons and Fighting Style Customization and Viability (as is, many people feel shoehorned into styles that possess clear advantages, which goes a long way in limiting people's conceptual choices)
One of my house rules is to eliminate the basic follow-up feats for Two-Weapon Fighting. All you need is the one feat, and you get as many off-hand attacks for your BAB as you gain main-hand attacks.
-Multiclassing. Obviously goes a long way to opening up conceptual options if it's improved. Just look at the opportunities ToB's improvements in this department gave us.
That's what I'm thinking about multiclassing.
-Making monstrous PCs work better. You know LA just doesn't work.
One important piece of that puzzle is that many LAs have been choosen with a good deal of caution, often overpenalising so the basic races would stay an attractive choice, and in some cases to discourage problem races (like vampires)
Still, I'll eagerly hear about any new idea for powerful races!
(One I've heard is giving them all commoner levels instead of LA, and I thought varying the "monster class" a bit to fine-tune the adjustments for each)
Also not cool when classes and builds have clear "drop out" or "drop in" points or progression ordering issues (goes back to multiclassing issues).
I think Pathfinder already addressed a lot of the drop out problems by making the classes more attractive at higher levels
-Diplomacy. This thing just doesn't work right in 3rd ed at all, to the point that the skill itself is on the CharOp Campaign Smasher list right next to Pun Pun.
I admit that I never used it as written, but always played it by ear. A decent system for making deals and the like would be quite welcome.
-Enhancing and/or expanding combat maneuver mechanics, like grapple.
I think Alpha's introduction of the Combat Manoeuvre Bonus went a long way towards increasing that.
-Streamlining play, including nonmechanical things like DM tools and tricks that can speed things up, chart adjustments (like listing hardness and other such relevant info such with weapons), or including an extra 2 pages in the MM where we can see the templated summoned monsters stats so that we don't have to waste all that time in game whenever someone brings up the danged things.
I'm all for that - if your idea of streamlining isn't the same as in 4e: "Let's cut all those options, they slow down play".
A robust DM toolbox will be a great help (and I suspect that Paizo, with a bit help from us, will be able to put up a masterwork set of DM tools, or even artifact level magic)
And definetly with you about the summoned monsters!
Anyways, none of these things would do anything to compromise backwards compatibility, obviously, but as you can see it's hardly a list of insignificant, quick little balance tweaks. And I can't just churn them all out in a day on my own; even if it weren't a big list of stuff, I've got other things to do, and I'm not getting paid this time. ;)
I think you'll find a lot of these things were already done, or at least started. Look around a bit (e.g. look at my attempt for multiclassing rules), and then throw out your ideas and see what grows out of them with the help of the community.
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Some big things I'm really hoping to address are, in no particular order...
Hello 4ngel, welcome to the boards.
I see that you already have a lot of ideas on your mind. Feel welcome to post more of these in these threads:
- Feedback and discussion of Alpha 3
- and you might be specifically interested in the new rules suggestions thread.
I had a VERY long post here, with links to several other things and some ideas and my opinions about what still needs work, etc, etc...
Then I hit the 'Preview' button and it took me to the Paizo store, and when I hit 'back' my whole post was gone.
Oh well - I just hope Pathfinder works better then the boards.
Edit: Only because I like it so much and plan to use it -
Markus:
Yeah, the boards software sucks. My browser rescues my posts in those situations, but still.
I wouldn't draw any conclusions on their RPG products, though. They're uniformly awesome.
*ngel:
Sorry to be off topic again, but you could always use the German word for angel. Which is Engel. See where I'm going with this? ;-)
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As a quick and dirty suggestion to help in not losing long message board posts....
Every time I write up a post for these boards, I highlight everything I have typed, right click, and click copy. Then I click on the submit post button. If for some reason my post disappears, I just go back to thread and add another post and paste in my original. At first it was a bit of hassle, but now I do it without thinking about it both here and everywhere else I post. I haven't had to redo a post since.
On the issue of helping in streamllining the game... I agree with Kae that many of these sorts of things are well underway. I would suggest you start by thoroughly reading the alpha 3 document. Then pick an area you are interested in that you want to contribute to. Go to the appropriate subsection of the board (for example, if you wanted to change a spell go to the pathfinder alpha/combat and magic sub forum), and see what is already up. Many threads are already well under way and quite long on a number of issues (for example the spell think tank thread). If you can find the right sort of thread, comment in there. If not, start a new thread with your idea so that the entire community can particpate and contribute their thoughts.
Last and most importantly, have fun. This open playtest is perhaps the smartest idea I have ever seen a company implement. No secretive NDA's. No fine print deeming every idea you have as the automatic property of the company. Most importantly, it is a forum where we can genuinely talk to the game designers on a daily basis and work together as a group to make a product we all love. I can point out several major issues in Pathfinder that have changed as a direct result of this boards collaborative effort. It is a very satisfying feeling to see the communities ideas implemented in that way.
Finally, I would suggest subscribing to the Pathfinder AP line of products as a good place to start your intro to Pathfinder. The AP is the flagship line and in there is where you will really get a sense for the "feel" of Golarion. There are articles that simulate the Core Beliefs, Ecology, and similar articles from the Dragon and Dungeon days. There is also tons of stuff you can use to flesh out your world. With subscriber discount you are only talking $13 per month for the AP's plus whatever shipping option you choose. I subscribed to the AP line before I committed to their other lines, but once I had several months of the AP to base a decision on it made it a lot easier to commit to their full product line. I love the work Paizo produces and I can't endorse them strongly enough. Welcome to the community, and I will be looking forward to seeing your ideas here and commenting on them.
Good Gaming!!!!
Hi OneWinged4ngel,
Welcome to the boards. Your list sounds downright tasty, to me. I can only suggest prioritizing it by what you think will have the biggest bang for the buck then leaping in. You get as far as you do, until pencil's down.
I, for one, look forward to what you contribute to the remaining alpha and the beta.
Hah, yeah, that's quickly become apparent, sadly :(Markus:
Yeah, the boards software sucks.
I don't sweat it. They'll probably fix it if they get around to it.
Other boards the the graver error: Their members suck. I have yet to find a bugfix for that.
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One important piece of that puzzle is that many LAs have been choosen with a good deal of caution, often overpenalising so the basic races would stay an attractive choice, and in some cases to discourage problem races (like vampires)
Still, I'll eagerly hear about any new idea for powerful races!
(One I've heard is giving them all commoner levels instead of LA, and I thought varying the "monster class" a bit to fine-tune the adjustments for each)
Wasn't there an option in Unearthed Arcana, to buy off the LA?
The idea being, that the abilities one got at the start may be impressive compared to other 1st-level characters, but less relevant as you levelled up.Sure, spending several thousand XP, and apparently getting nothing for it seems odd at first, but if it means that your ECL is lower, then you gain future XP faster, so it partially pays for itself in the long term (more so, the earlier you start doing it).
Eek, am I hearing this right? They banned Frank?
Geez, this feels just like WotC. Why would they ban such a thoroughly constructive poster?
He wasn't banned for the constructive parts of his posts.
Actually, I thought they just gave him a "cool-down" period and he never came back. I could be wrong, though.
Hi 4ngel!
... I use your rebalanced paladin (or at least I did, no one in my current campaign wanted to use paladin so I haven't needed to choose between it and Pathfinder's).
As for Frank, there's a LONG thread with people requesting a temp ban (and that's all it was, 1/2 weeks) on Frank along with reasons and examples. From what I've seen the Paizo peoples are very willing to have people who disagree with them (as long as those people don't offend their clients whilst disagee).
Well, then what the HECK would they ban him for?
Read all about it here...
Well, then what the HECK would they ban him for? He seemed to be, again, thoroughly constructive every time I spoke with the man, even if we disagree on some things.
I assume they blocked him for hurling abuse.
While I haven't read every post in that thread as of the moment I post this, I don't see a good justification there either.
Apparently, he didn't follow the forum rules.
Good ideas do not make up for bad behavior. Driving other posters from a thread and these boards with your posts is not acceptable, even if your ideas are fantastic. This does not just apply to Frank either.
I ask that people post up their ideas. If you can't do that without discrediting someone else or insulting other posters, then perhaps you should hold off on posting until you can.
I can't accept that such a good poster should be banned just because some people can't take a few blunt words. If that's how things are, they'll boot ME, cuz I don't tend to mince words either.
Just leave any personal attacks out of it and I'm sure you'll be fine. Welcome to the boards, BTW.
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So he's not banned, then? They just drove him off? Still a pity, but doesn't worry me half as much.
Actually, he decided not to... grace us with his presence and insight after being on a very short "time out."
He and his cohort then proceeded to say some very... creative things about Paizo and Paizo customers on another website.
HUH? Good ideas are good behavior. Not having good ideas is bad behavior. Get rid of the people with bad ideas!
Good ideas do not make up for bad behavior.
In other words, all of the good ideas in the world do not excuse making personal attacks, etc. on these boards.