Considering a Pathfinder Campaign


Alpha Playtest Feedback General Discussion


My group were all set to begin an Eberron campaign.
Then I foolishly mentioned the coming of 4th edition.
So we considered it.
We read about it.
We shuddered.
We wept a bit.
Now we're looking at all our existing DnD 3.5 materials and have a bitter taste in our collective mouths.

SO, I'm shopping a bit.

I downloaded the Alpha pdf, and have given it a cursory read.

I do, however, have a few questions for those who may have read it more thoroughly;

~Where are the monsters? Do we use standardized OGL d20 critters?
~How do Prestige Classes work?
~Is multiclassing the same as in 3.5?
~How hard would it be to create Kalashtar, Warforged, and Shifters in the Pathfinder system?
~Is there room for Psionics in Pathfinder?

Thanks so very much!
Jim


JohnnyArkham wrote:


~Where are the monsters? Do we use standardized OGL d20 critters?
~How do Prestige Classes work?
~Is multiclassing the same as in 3.5?
~How hard would it be to create Kalashtar, Warforged, and Shifters in the Pathfinder system?
~Is there room for Psionics in Pathfinder?

Short answer, use everyting as is, its supposed to be backwards compatable with a few mod.

Closer look you will find a few complications.

1. Prower creep seems to be an issue with 3.5 monsters. I've used them as is so far and have found little problem. However at lest two of my players think CR should be lowered by 1. Personal I would simply play the group on the slow progression track.

2. Far as I know Prestige classes should all work the same, though you may have a problem with skills requirements. This is when good GMing is vital. If for example a Prestige class requires Spot 5 and Listen 5 I would use Perception 5 and move on. However you may not like the new skills in Pathfinder, in which case use the new rank system but keep the old skills. My group is not doing this because they tend to like fewer skills, I tend to like more so I'd keep the old skills + maybe a few more.

3. Yes I think so, though I'll leave any corrections to others.

4. Very simple create them as was, add a +2 to an ablity. Something I do not like in Pathfider for reason I'll explain in my evealutation of the game. Its not a powercreep issue, its more about the reasoning behind it.

5. Yes and no. As far as I know nothing offical has been done for Psionics. Which means that the old system works is usable. However, and again others may be able to speak to this, there might be a classing of rules in terms powers vs. magic. Moreover unlike much of what WotC did towards the end of 3.5 Psionics never got the love nor powercreep that other classes and powers did. As such yo might find that the classes (races see #4) are collectively underpowered.

My advise, use Alpha 3 and interchange as much as you'd like using both systems at first. Make corrections as they come along, this will be fustrating (trust me I know as not only did I do this but made corrections for Alpha 2 and some 3 as we went along) but it will give you a very good feel for the changes in the rules. Nothing teachers like playing it. Moreover you will find very quickly what you like and don't like about the new rule set. And please give feedback to the message boards. Good and Bad issues you have with Pathfinder have to be voiced otherwise the game will not be as good as it can be.

And trust me the guys at Paizo do listen.

I hope this helps, and I'm sure more well informed players and DM's can give even better advise and help with any other questions.

Good luck, and happy playing,

Dre


JohnnyArkham wrote:


~Where are the monsters? Do we use standardized OGL d20 critters?
~How do Prestige Classes work?
~Is multiclassing the same as in 3.5?
~How hard would it be to create Kalashtar, Warforged, and Shifters in the Pathfinder system?
~Is there room for Psionics in Pathfinder?

In order, my answers for you:

Use standard d20/OGL critters.
Prestige classes work the same - there is an annotation in the skills section about making them work with prestige classes.
Yes.
I don't there's much of a difference, really. Use as-is.
Yes. :D

I know the Bulmahn is looking for playtesting feedback, so you might want to see how the hybridization of PF rules and the Eberron setting go for you, then post your info. :)

Grand Lodge

Hey Johnny, welcome to the Paizo Boards! Glad to have you.

Lilith mentioned "Playtest Feedback." In case you were wondering, that's what Paizo is doing right now: open playtesting. Paizo (and we the customers) know D&D needs revising but unlike WotC, Paizo has been doing an open playtest.

Everyone is getting drafts of the rules-adjustments here, thinking about them and hopefully playing through them to see what works. Check out some of the Playtest Threads to see what some of the folks are "politely" discussing.

Let your group know about us. We'd love to have y'all's input.

-W. E. Ray

Spoiler:
And OMG, start reading the Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rise of the Runelords. If you aren't 100% satisfied that it is money WELL spent, Lilith will give your group homemade mead and cookies!


I've been gaming for 22 years. I've trudged through basic D&D, advanced D&D, 3.0& 3.5 editions. I was very happy with MOST of the game. I've adapted over the years to the constant adaptions to existinfg rule structures. I've looked over the Alpha release rules and I really like how you gentlemen at Paizo have tweaked the rules. I think I'll actually be able to get a player to play a sorcerer for more than two levels. I have purchased all of the available Pathfinder adventure path in print. I have also pre-ordered the rest of the second path. FANTASTIC JOB!!! I was amazed at the quality of the adventure in appearance, originality and playability. I must say if you guys were not out there willing to continue to produce material set up for "3.75" rules. I have read all the material for 4th edition. I'm not impressed at all. Your improvements over yesteryear's rule structure is far better than Wizard's.


oh yeah, lost my train of thought last thread, if you all were not out there making good use of the 3.5 rules then my $7000 worth of books would of eventually made great firewood according to Wizards.

Scarab Sages

Ben Harrop wrote:
I've been gaming for 22 years. I've trudged through basic D&D, advanced D&D, 3.0& 3.5 editions. I was very happy with MOST of the game. I've adapted over the years to the constant adaptions to existinfg rule structures. I've looked over the Alpha release rules and I really like how you gentlemen at Paizo have tweaked the rules. I think I'll actually be able to get a player to play a sorcerer for more than two levels. I have purchased all of the available Pathfinder adventure path in print. I have also pre-ordered the rest of the second path. FANTASTIC JOB!!! I was amazed at the quality of the adventure in appearance, originality and playability. I must say if you guys were not out there willing to continue to produce material set up for "3.75" rules. I have read all the material for 4th edition. I'm not impressed at all. Your improvements over yesteryear's rule structure is far better than Wizard's.

Hi, If you are going to preorder the 2nd AP or any of them, my advise to you would be cancel your preorders, sign up for the subscription and enjoy the free PDFs and the 20% discount off of everything else. If you are already going to buy them it just makes good sense.

As for the OP, one thing I would add about prestige class is to make sure the HD of the class agrees with the BAB progression as discussed in the Alpha. For instance, my daughter has an Order of the Bow Fighter. As written it has a d8 HD. TO bring it in line with the core classes I bumped it up to a d10 HD.


I'm unclear on how psionics work in third edition games, having never been much of a psionics fan, but I gather from some sources that the Concentration skill might be important to its function. If so, it may be necessary to house-rule Concentration back into Pathfinder, since I think it got rolled up into one of the other skills (spellcraft?).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
I'm unclear on how psionics work in third edition games, having never been much of a psionics fan, but I gather from some sources that the Concentration skill might be important to its function. If so, it may be necessary to house-rule Concentration back into Pathfinder, since I think it got rolled up into one of the other skills (spellcraft?).

Or you could use Psicraft for Psionics in the same way as Spellcraft is used for magic.

I prefer Concentration to be separate, but it's possible to go for other fixes.


Helloooo Johnny! Welcome to the boards. I hope you'll like it here, but you should be alright: Lots of great people around.

About your questions:

JohnnyArkham wrote:


~Where are the monsters? Do we use standardized OGL d20 critters?
~How do Prestige Classes work?
~Is multiclassing the same as in 3.5?
~How hard would it be to create Kalashtar, Warforged, and Shifters in the Pathfinder system?
~Is there room for Psionics in Pathfinder?

First of all, Pathfinder is supposed to be a further revision of 3e - you could say it will be 3.75 or something. One of the big goals is to make it backwards compatible with 3e material. You might want to update some details, but most of the time, it will work out fine.

The Alpha PDF is a very basic document, as it only lists changes over 3.5e, so whatever's not in there is still like 3.5. The Beta (coming this August) will have all the stuff that used to be in the PHB and DMG in it, though. Also note that a lot of the alpha stuff is intentionally "over the top" - Jason's testing the waters and wants to see what he can/must push how far. It's quite possible that the final version will be a lot tamer.

Monsters: The RPG hardcover won't have monsters in it (only DMG and PHB stuff!), but a Monster book will almost certainly follow. Alpha 3 does have a monster creation/conversion guideline, though, if you really want to convert existing monsters. But it's by no means necessary. You can use any 3e/3.5e/d20/OGL monsters (from the various Monster Manuals, Tomes of Horrors, Pathfinder Adventure Paths, whathaveoyu) as is, or maybe with a quick'n'dirty conversion.

I go with a very quick'n'very dirty conversion: If substitute the consolidated skills for their successors, and maybe give them some appropriate extra skills when it had two skills that are now the same skill. But that doesn't come up that often, since skills aren't that important in the heat of battle. I also occasionally give it an extra feat or two if I think they need them (you now get feats at every odd level instead of at 1st and then every 3rd, so you usually end up with a few extra feats), sticking with simple stuff.

But it isn't really necessary, the monsters will usually perform as well here as before.

PrCs: We don't know whether they will change, but generally, they're the same as before. Beta will have the SRD core book PrCs, and we'll see whether they were tweaked at all.

There's only two differences I can think of:

  • Favoured Classes now grant +1 hp per level, and PrCs are never favoured classes (not even something that really matters to PrCs)
  • Since skills work a bit differently on paper now (max ranks equals level, and trained class skills get +3; instead of the old level+3 max ranks or half that for cross class), so skill requirements have to change as well. The rule of thumb is to reduce the rank prerequisites by 3 - but if it's a cross-class skill for you, you need twice as many skills (i.e. old: 5, new: 2, or 4 for cross class)

    Multiclassing: Multiclassing itself hasn't been changed (yet - maybe they think of a neat solution for spellcasters), but one thing pertaining to multiclassing has changed: You never incur an XP penalty for multiclassing (usually you had to keep within one level with all classes except your favoured class or you'd get a 20% penalty on the XP needed to level up; The changes to favoured classes are are as described above in the PrCs part)

    Shifters and other races: Just use them as is. All you might have to change is stuff like racial skill bonuses if the skills in question are changed.

    If you find that those races are now too weak compared to the core classes, just boost them a bit. An extra +2 ability boost (make sure that they each get one mental and one physical bonus) should do nicely. That might not even be necessary, though, since a big reason for the new and improved races was to bring them toe to toe with newer races that were released after the core rules - since they can't even mention, say, warforged, and weaken them to let them be equals to, say, humans, they had to go the other way.

    Psionics: There's definetly room for psionics in PF: Just use the races and classes as is, they should do alright. Since concentration's gone (right now - I suspect that it will return), substitute all manifesters' uses of concentration to psicraft (just like magical uses have been transferred to spellcraft). Or, if you want it to be different, put it into autohypnosis.

    Charles Evans 25 wrote:
    I'm unclear on how psionics work in third edition games, having never been much of a psionics fan, but I gather from some sources that the Concentration skill might be important to its function. If so, it may be necessary to house-rule Concentration back into Pathfinder, since I think it got rolled up into one of the other skills (spellcraft?).

    Well, to get it out of the way: I'd like concentration back. Maybe give it some extra uses, like meditation or something.

    About concentration and psionics: Manifesters (all psi-users manifest powers instead of casting spells) have several uses for concentration:

  • All the stuff spellcasters do with magic (i.e. manifesters use it to manifest defensively, or avoid losing a power when they're hurt or distracted)
  • Suppress the psionic displays: all powers are purely mental - so you don't need still power or silent power, all you have to do is focus your mind on manifesting the power - but causes displays when manifested. Some produce a visual effect, some a sound, or smell, or ectoplasm, or even something mental. Concentration can be used to suppress these displays
  • Gain Psionic Focus. A full-round action and a DC 20 concentration check (can be reduced to a move action with the right feat) will make you become psionically focussed. You can expend that focus to "take 15" on a concentration check, or to use psionic feats: Many psionic feats (like all metapsionic feats) require you to expend your focus to make them work. Others require you to be focussed to gain their benefits.

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