Can someone help me remember why spells were divided between those that allow SR and those that don't? If there wasn't an important reason... couldn't all spells just allow SR? This may sound like a basic question, but I could use the help on this one...?
I think it was that, conceptually, the building blocks of spells had values and were interchangeable. For example, many spells in Monte's Eldritch books ditch SR in return for losing some other aspect of potency (less damage, for example) and visa versa.
What the mathematics of the swaps in spell design are, I couldn't tell you, but each aspect is weighted and treated like a component.
I think that's whats going on, anyway. Encourages maximum variation and gives desingers more buttons and switches to flip.
I think Andrew has it, as far as my own opinion goes. To expound:
Conjuration is dealing with "real" objects, either creating them, or calling them to you via the summoning/calling subschools. Melf's Acid Arrow is an actual creation of a handful of fairly potent acid (almost twice as strong as a flask) which you hurl at your enemy and allow to sear into them over the next several seconds. The acid has physical weight and mass, and could be harvested somehow, if it were not for the fact that its specific makeup causes it to be extrememly caustic for a few moments before evaporating/becoming inert. SR doesn't apply to them because the material created is real, it has no latent magic in it despite being created by magic. Example: why antimagic field or disjunction have no effect on golems or undead (non-summoned at least).
Evocation is dealing with "real" energy. A fireball is a wave of heat energy so intense it causes the air itself to burst into flames. Cone of cold is a massive reduction of heat in the area to the point that it nearly hits absolute zero for a split second. Lightning bolt is just that, a lightning bolt. All of these effects have no mass, and are instantaneous; the exist for a moment, and then are gone. SR applies to these effects because so much of the effect is regulated by magic; a sort of combo of arcane power source, containment field, regulators, etc.
The problem in this definition is the orb spells (all conjuration, and no SR), and several similar spells which come after them. I have no problem with orb of acid. Even orb of fire I can buy (its an actual splash of magma). I can even stretch orb of cold (dry ice). But orb of electricity is really pushing it (a handful of charged metal shavings, maybe?) and orb of sound kills it for me (a handful of...harmonicas....right).
Maybe these definitions will help some people, but I agree that until the "border" between evocation and conjuration is cleaned up on an "official" level, theres going to be arguments about it.
Core, I don't mind the SR/No SR distinction.
Splatbook- I do mind. They came out with arbitrary spells that suddenly don't allow for SR simply because of the fluff.
No.
just.. No.
If you wave your hand and create fire that goes and hurts the bad guy, you are creating fire with magic and that should require SR check. Period. There should be no spell that damages others with the elements that does not require SR.
They have allowed fluff (conjuration/evocation distinction) to evade a core game element. (elemental magic = SR checks).
(not that i think conjuration/evocation distinction is pure fluff: but they have treated it as such when they go and pull a fast one like this. Orb spells? Conjuration?.. No.. Evocation.. Sorry)
-S
I propose that this new edition make a blanket statement that all spells that are detrimental to the opponent must have SR. Too many 3.5 combats are nerfed by glitterdust and the whole array of no SR conjuration spells from CA that mimic the evocation school.
Monster CRs are usually calcuated factoring in SR. If spells with no SR are allowed to defeat them, the effective CR is much lower than the putative SR. e.g. a golem is supposed to be almost immune to magic, but their will save is poor. Seldom does one ever fight a golem that isn't blind (from glitterdust) and these days the wizards simply ray of xxxx them to death.
Howdy, Keith. Long time no see. I agree with you completely. I never liked the idea of conjuration spells automatically bypassing SR. In addition to the problems you note, it paved the way for a bunch of spells becoming conjuration spells that never should have been conjurations in the first place.
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Non-SR is spells is a symptom of a much bigger issue. Paizo cannot only fix the SRD portions of D&D, they cannot undo years of broken product releases from Wizards of the Coast by publishing a few rules like this.
The schools of magic really make no sense at all, however even within the bizarre school structure in 3.5 Conjuration should be summoning, creating, and teleporting physical objects, that's it. Creating or summoning 'energy' in any form should belong to Evocation. Not only does this impact game balance from the SR point of view but it devalues the entire evocation school. Why take evocation when conjuration can do anything it can do better?
That said... what can Paizo do about it? Not much since most of the damage was done in on OGC material. A few rules in the spells section isn't going to fix all the problems introduced in dozens of releases over the life of the 3.5 product line. DMs just need to use splat books responsible. Learn to say No... or at least to say SR applies.
-- Dennis
i personally loathe the no SR conjuration damage spells. As a DM, my party's invoker is useless against a stone golem because they're immune to magic...but a conjurer just chain casts melfs acid arrow until the same golem is scrap? WTH.
I do NOT think conjuration spells should be better at damage dealing versatility then evocations.
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I agree wholeheartedly that the no-SR conjuration spells are stupid since they were basically created to mimic evocation spells (and are insignificantly less powerful than similar evocation spells). I thought that was possibly the dumbest set of spells I've ever seen.
That said, I would be very much against continuing the buggery-fest of the wizards in Pathfinder RPG by making ALL offensive spells be repelled by SR. If we keep at it, wizards will be high useless since everything will make its save because of odd rules (ie. school powers being SLAs with CHA as the DC determinant) or be able to shrug it off because of SR.
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Like other posters have said, Conjuration brings some object from nothingness, Evocation brings energy. A conjuration spell should create, for example, a solid, real weapon that you can hurt someone with, so that SR won't apply since the magic is already gone by the time the weapon is used. Evocation makes the energy and the delivery system, i.e.: Lightning Bolt. The orb line of spells (which, btw, aren't "core" and aren't in the SRD, IIRC) break this rule for the sole purpose of getting around SR, and further diluting the schtick of Evokers.
So... fix it! No Conjuration spells that make energy and deliver it (I'm ok with making a fire appear "over there", but not flinging it around). The main problem with this is Acid Arrow (and the fact that "acid" is, in D&D, a type of [i]energy[/], WTH?), which IS core and patently breaks the rule. Make it the exception, or else change it in some way.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Conjuration creation spells that deal direct damage should be few and far between. The entire orb line of spells while balanced certainly didn't fit thematically. No other spells turned the traditional Golem encounter from a Fighter's challenge to just a speed bump for the wizard/sorcerer.
A big wrinkle in this debate is that acid, while an energy type in D&D, is the only energy type that is composed of physical matter, and as such can fall under the purveiw of Conjuration. By that idea, fire could also fall under Conjuration, if were talking about sodium, phosphorous, or magma.
Electricity, sonic, and cold however, have almost no appreciable physical mass. Perhaps cold could be liquid nitrogen, or dry ice. Sonic could be a compressed ball of air that is allowed to expand violently and make a shockwave/sonic boom. Electricity...well...it could be charged iron fillings. A little harder stretch.
It definitely makes a hiccup in what feels like the separation between conjuration and evocation. Acid arrow falls into this hiccup. But I think it works, insofar as what energy, conjuration, and evocation are defined as currently.
To me the bigger problem is the Metamagic Feat Energy Substitution, as that breaks the argument wide open. Even though that isn't "core" its fairly well accepted, and there is also the SRD variant ability for Evokers that mimics that feat.
A big wrinkle in this debate is that acid, while an energy type in D&D, is the only energy type that is composed of physical matter, and as such can fall under the purveiw of Conjuration. By that idea, fire could also fall under Conjuration, if were talking about sodium, phosphorous, or magma.
Electricity, sonic, and cold however, have almost no appreciable physical mass. Perhaps cold could be liquid nitrogen, or dry ice. Sonic could be a compressed ball of air that is allowed to expand violently and make a shockwave/sonic boom. Electricity...well...it could be charged iron fillings. A little harder stretch.
It definitely makes a hiccup in what feels like the separation between conjuration and evocation. Acid arrow falls into this hiccup. But I think it works, insofar as what energy, conjuration, and evocation are defined as currently.
To me the bigger problem is the Metamagic Feat Energy Substitution, as that breaks the argument wide open. Even though that isn't "core" its fairly well accepted, and there is also the SRD variant ability for Evokers that mimics that feat.
you coudl just as easily say that conjuration cold spells generate moisture travelling in a dorection that is superchilled to turn into ice when it is a cold spell. just how different is that from evocation? i disagree with the "conjuration is created and doen before impact therefore it bypasses SR" stance that they put forth.
To me(!) things that should bypass SR are thing slike... "i use telekineesis to pick up a boulder and hit him with it." i don't much care if it was a conjuration effect "oh golly, you made an object OUT OF MAGIC" why shouldn't that be resistable. manipulating the environment to effect an SR creature is what should work. not CREATING something with magic to backdoor justify.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I like drawing the line with whether it's a physical object created from magic or not. Thus, Ice storm and wall of stone - no SR, but anything that creates fire, lightning (and acid by 3.5 definitions) should be subject to SR. (I know acid is physical, but it's considered the energy associated with the element of earth - so it's a bit of a grey area.)
The schools of magic and the relevant spell list need a good cleanup. Just send to evocation what belongs there and we're fine. Perhaps no direct damage spells for Conjuration?
If magic effects the creatures body or mind, SR applies.
Therefore if there's a will save or fortitude save, SR always applies, excpet for conjuration (creation) spells.
If the magical effect affects the environment, the creatures equipment, or forms something that interacts with the creature, it doesn't.