Although I like the new bard in almost every aspect, there is one thing that I cannot get over with:
the DC against bardic music = perform check result. Ok, it sounds really nice and reasonable, works in the case of fascinate because that's not a combat ability, but in my groups I have several bards, all with skill focus:performs and masterwork or magical music intruments. How can anyone hope to resist these DC-s?
It is not funny that enemy adventuring parties all run off because a bard starts to sing. At least it should be the barbarian who scares them off if it is necessary :-)
Really, think of it. I have a high level group, bard 18th level, charisma 20, +4 bonus music instrument, skill focus (perform) and versatile performer feats. Average perform check result 45,5. Who has a reasonable chance to make that save, even at high levels, except for dragons?
And, this way, especially the 20. level "deadly performance" makes the bard the jack-of-all-kills.
JJ, if you read: seriously, why did you not stay with the standard 10+classlevel+charisma DC?
Eagerly waiting for comments on this issue
Director of Games
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Although I like the new bard in almost every aspect, there is one thing that I cannot get over with:
the DC against bardic music = perform check result. Ok, it sounds really nice and reasonable, works in the case of fascinate because that's not a combat ability, but in my groups I have several bards, all with skill focus:performs and masterwork or magical music intruments. How can anyone hope to resist these DC-s?
It is not funny that enemy adventuring parties all run off because a bard starts to sing. At least it should be the barbarian who scares them off if it is necessary :-)
Really, think of it. I have a high level group, bard 18th level, charisma 20, +4 bonus music instrument, skill focus (perform) and versatile performer feats. Average perform check result 45,5. Who has a reasonable chance to make that save, even at high levels, except for dragons?
And, this way, especially the 20. level "deadly performance" makes the bard the jack-of-all-kills.
JJ, if you read: seriously, why did you not stay with the standard 10+classlevel+charisma DC?
Eagerly waiting for comments on this issue
I am going back through these very issues and you will probably see some standardized DCs in the Beta.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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So now CoD-zilla has advanced into his new Pathfinder form, Bard-zilla?
One problem I can see with it is that to fully get use out of Bardic Performance, you have to max out not one but two Perform skills, one from the musical school (keyboard, percussion, wind, string, or sing) and one from the performance school (act, comedy, dance, or oratory).
With all the Will save effects at the Bard's control, he's now a major Giant killer, whether for good or for bad.
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Don't like.
I hate that Fascinate is song/poem. Why can't a dancer be doing the Dance of Nine Veils to fascinate her opponents? Yet.. she can dance to use Distraction. If she can distract them, why can't she Fascinate them?
How can a dancer Inspire Courage in her allies (by dancing) when they can't watch her in a middle of a fight.
The inconsistency of Suggest and Mass Suggest using ANY type of Performance but naturally stacking with Fascinate is annoying.
Then there's Soothing Performance. I thought music was supposed to be soothing... no bad acting.
Please remove the Perform(TYPE) requirements from the abilities. Let the bard's player find a way to make flavor work with mechanic.
Don't like.
I hate that Fascinate is song/poem. Why can't a dancer be doing the Dance of Nine Veils to fascinate her opponents? Yet.. she can dance to use Distraction. If she can distract them, why can't she Fascinate them?
How can a dancer Inspire Courage in her allies (by dancing) when they can't watch her in a middle of a fight.
The inconsistency of Suggest and Mass Suggest using ANY type of Performance but naturally stacking with Fascinate is annoying.
Then there's Soothing Performance. I thought music was supposed to be soothing... no bad acting.
Please remove the Perform(TYPE) requirements from the abilities. Let the bard's player find a way to make flavor work with mechanic.
I will agree with this statement. A hot chick bard doing some belly dance should be able to fascinate people >.>
I get what everyone is saying, but I kind of like that the bard can't be a one trick pony when it comes to his performances, and he has to have more than one skill to be good at these bardic performances. Maybe this can be polished, but I really do like seeing a more well rounded bard with more than one perform skill, especially when there isn't much point in taking more than one perform skill if there isn't a use for it.
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There certainly are reasons to have more than one perform skill.
Silence is a low level spell, and if all of your performances are based on auditory functions, you won't have any ability to affect the battle if the opponent considers you a 'threat'. Since the bard has never been a threat, this probably hasn't come up much.
But yes, a smart bard should have more than one performance medium because in different situations it may be relevant. Singing or percussion are both good because they may be possible without equipment. Having another one that uses an intsrument is good because it allows you to pick up an item that provides a masterwork bonus or a magical bonus. Having another that is strictly visual (like dance) allows you to function in an area of silence. So, I think there is incentive to have multiple performs. And I'm all for some dancers being able to fascinate people.
Remember the Blade kit from second edition. I'd like to be able to recreate that with the bard class, with maybe a few fighter levels in order to replicate that feel. The new bard somewhat allows for that, which makes me happy, but it's still a difficult concept to recreate.
Hopefully the beta will give that type of versatility to the bard. Plop in a few fighter levels and you have a battle dancer that uses weapons displays for intimidation.
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Although I like the new bard in almost every aspect, there is one thing that I cannot get over with:
the DC against bardic music = perform check result. Ok, it sounds really nice and reasonable, works in the case of fascinate because that's not a combat ability, but in my groups I have several bards, all with skill focus:performs and masterwork or magical music intruments. How can anyone hope to resist these DC-s?
It is not funny that enemy adventuring parties all run off because a bard starts to sing. At least it should be the barbarian who scares them off if it is necessary :-)
Really, think of it. I have a high level group, bard 18th level, charisma 20, +4 bonus music instrument, skill focus (perform) and versatile performer feats. Average perform check result 45,5. Who has a reasonable chance to make that save, even at high levels, except for dragons?
And, this way, especially the 20. level "deadly performance" makes the bard the jack-of-all-kills.
JJ, if you read: seriously, why did you not stay with the standard 10+classlevel+charisma DC?
Eagerly waiting for comments on this issue
Your absolutely right that the skill check thing can get way out of hand. But I also agree that something more than the 10+class level+Charisma needs to be implemented. The "standard" dc is fine against low level groups... but how can a bard affect a dragon? or some other highly intelligent foe if he cant hope to have more than a 25% chance or less to affect them? Not that the bard should be able to kill with deadly performance at will, or anything like that, but i do like the idea of making bardic abilities harder to shrug off. They were never a threat before because everyone could just ignore them most of the time. they cant do that now.
As for the multiple perform types required, i like this. Yes, fluff wise it is a little rough. Dancers can fascinate as easily as orators and musicians, but at the same time, i like that it forces bard to become more than 1 trick ponies. Bards should have 2-3 perform skills maxed out, and a splash of several others. They shouldn't be able to get away with only 1 ability all the time.
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Hmmm, maybe you're right. If we go standard DC formula, a 10th level Bard would have a DC of about 19... not that fantastic really. Not terrible, but not fantastic.
How about if you could burn more Bardic Music uses when you use the ability to increase the DC? Maybe like +2 or +3 to the DC for each additional use of Bardic Music you use to power the effect?
Well, thats one way to do it, but if we did that i would almost say that it would need to be more like +5 per extra use. Honestly, i have never liked an ability that lets me use up extra uses to boost the single use... it always felt like a statistical blunder. At least for the +2-3 bonus it usually gives. That sort of small boost never felt worth it. I am at a loss for any better ideas though.
What if, say, a number of times per day = the bards level (or half the bards lvl), he can add twice his charisma bonus? that would give him an average of +3 or +4 bonus on several of his checks a day... so take your example of a 10th lvl bard:
10 times a day, his DC would be 23 rather than 19.
Significant, but not game breaking and it doesn't use up extra uses of his abilities.
*edit* Or for that matter, change the standard formula to always use twice his charisma modifier? simply so we don't have to track extra things?
I would want to maintain the need for a good performance. Under the existing rules you already have to make a check so this wouldn't take any more time.
My recommendation would be 10 +1/2 bard level +Cha modifier +Performance modifier. The Performance modifier is given by making a Perform check and recieving a bonus for the result:
Result/Bonus:
20:+1
25:+2
30:+3
40:+4
50:+5
and so on.
This maintains the importance of the Perform result and boosts it a little over other magical save DCs, especially since the bard can ensure a decent performance by taking 10 on the check.
I would want to maintain the need for a good performance. Under the existing rules you already have to make a check so this wouldn't take any more time.
My recommendation would be 10 +1/2 bard level +Cha modifier +Performance modifier. The Performance modifier is given by making a Perform check and recieving a bonus for the result:
Result/Bonus:
20:+1
25:+2
30:+3
40:+4
50:+5
and so on.This maintains the importance of the Perform result and boosts it a little over other magical save DCs, especially since the bard can ensure a decent performance by taking 10 on the check.
Yep. Same idea. We're getting to the right waters now. This sounds much nicer and controllable. I am working on a bard suggestion with more performance options, and one of them is a move action song that boosts the performance DC-s or enchantment/illusion spell DC-s by approximately the same amount. I will try to post it today, perhaps it will provide some ideas. Keep up the good ideas guys!
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I would want to maintain the need for a good performance. Under the existing rules you already have to make a check so this wouldn't take any more time.
My recommendation would be 10 +1/2 bard level +Cha modifier +Performance modifier. The Performance modifier is given by making a Perform check and recieving a bonus for the result:
Result/Bonus:
20:+1
25:+2
30:+3
40:+4
50:+5
and so on.This maintains the importance of the Perform result and boosts it a little over other magical save DCs, especially since the bard can ensure a decent performance by taking 10 on the check.
I like where this is going. It certainly is better than my double charisma mod idea. But i do think it should start lower... like at 15, and then go up every 5, rather than ten... so it would go
15:+1
20:+2
25:+3
30:+4
35:+5
40:+6
and so on. Because otherwise, using our 10th lvl bard example
10 + 5 + 4 + 3 = 22
(take 10 + 14 ranks perform + 4 cha + 2 MW instrument = 30:+3)
My way we would have 10 + 5 + 4 + 4 = 23
(take 10 + 14 ranks perform + 4 cha + 2 MW instrument = 30:+4)
Not a whole lot of difference, but would start to be a little bit stronger from there on.
Personally, I think Perform Check = save is fine. It's not like they're terribly useful, and by level 20, seriously, Bards should be able to persuade gods and kill folk with nothing but a smile. I mean, Wizards and the other classes have really outright crazy abilities by that level, why can't a Bard kill with song or two?
I mean, if you really want to push it, why not for every base DC per bardic song or whatever, that means you have to give an arbitrary DC to each type of bardic use, and for every +3 you beat that DC by, you add one to the 10 + Class levels + Cha DC for the save? It's a lot simpler, and less a of a hassle, and doesn't nerf it anymore than it has to...
Personally, I think that Bards being able to do more than just sing and play a lute would make the class quite a bit more attractive to people that used to scoff at it.
What about a Warrior Poet, anyone? Reciting passages from ancient epic to inspire his allies before battle, donning armor, wielding sword and shield among his comrades as he shouts passages of encouragment?
How about a seductive dancer clad in silk adept with the scimitar, able to disarm or stun her foes with her dance?
Bards should have more options, they may be iconic but I'd argue they're the /least/ loved and most picked on of the core classes.
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I get what everyone is saying, but I kind of like that the bard can't be a one trick pony when it comes to his performances, and he has to have more than one skill to be good at these bardic performances. Maybe this can be polished, but I really do like seeing a more well rounded bard with more than one perform skill, especially when there isn't much point in taking more than one perform skill if there isn't a use for it.
No polish.. throw it away.
A wizard doesn't need multiple knowledge skills.
A cleric doesn't need multiple knowledge skills.
A ROGUE NO LONGER NEEDS MULTIPLE ROGUE SKILLS!
This is so backwards it's unreal. If you want to encourage bards to take multiple performances for certain abilities, then I suggest a synergy bonus or that bards don't get their +3 class bonus when using the "non-required" Perform skill.
BUT the skills have to make sense first.
A bard can't dance or act to Inspire Courage when the allies are too busy FIGHTING to watch the bard.
If a dancing bard can Distract, then a bard can fascinate. It's almost the same thing.
ETC.
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Digging back through 3.5 material, there was a prestige class in Complete Arcane, the Seeker of the Song (pg. 56) which had several attack style bardic abilities. If the ability had a save, it used a DC 10 + the bard's ranks in Perform. Under the Pathfinder skill system, this would make the DC 30 (or 33 if you got the class skill bonus)at 20th level. Not an unreasonable save for level 20. Since the DC calculation is predicated on actual ranks in the perform skill, ability modifiers, spells, and feats could not increase the DC unless they allowed the bard to gain skill ranks in excess of the rank maximum (equal to HD).
Just food for thought.
