Notes:
(1) This is primarily a rewrite of Rage powers to both remove or adjust some truly awful powers, and to introduce some useful high level powers. Any power not listed should be assumed to have been removed. A few other abilities were also minorly adjusted (notably Indomitable Will was rewritten).
(2) The goal of this rewrite is to make the barbarian more competitive with the Rogue and caster classes. This rewrite is not, in itself, necessarily sufficient to the task. Feats, especially Paizo's combat feats, need to be carefully examined.
(3) Barbarians start gaining access to a number of supernatural abilities around 9th level and beyond. That's what high level characters do. If you don't believe in supernatural martial classes, please only consider the powers available at 8th level and below in your comments. Comments that 'supernatural powers don't belong here' are not appreciated and not constructive - That represents a fundamental difference in opinion on the power level and nature of the classes in D+D and this thread is not the place for that discussion.
Barbarian Class
1 Fast Movement, Rage
2 Rage Power, Uncanny Dodge
3 Indomitable Will
4 Rage Power
5 Improved Uncanny Dodge
6 Rage Power
7 DR 3/-
8 Rage Power
9 Irresistible Force
10 Damage Reduction 6/-, Rage Power
11 Greater Rage
12 Rage Power
13 DR 9/-
14 Rage Power
15
16 DR 12/-, Rage Power
17 Tireless Rage
18 Rage Power
19 DR 15/-
20 Mighty Rage, Rage Power
BAB: Good
Saves: Fort and Ref favored
Skills: as per 3.P.0.2
Un-specified abilities (but not rage powers) function as per the SRD or 3.P.0.2.
Rage (Ex): As per 3.P.0.2 pg 8-10, except a barbarian gains 4+con modifier rage points every level.
Rage Powers: As per 3.P.0.2 pg 10 in general, but replace all the rage powers as follows:
Animal Fury(ex): The Barbarian gains a bite attack with his full base attack bonus in addition to any other attacks he may make this round. The bite deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature and scales normally per sizing rules, plus the barbarian's strength modifier. If the bite hits the barbarian gets a +2 bonus on grapple checks against the target of his bite until the start of his next turn. (6 rage points)
Increased DR(ex): The Barbarian improves his existing DR by 3 for every 3 rage points spent on this power, to a maximum of 9 points spent (and 9/- added to DR). The Barbarian must have DR as a class feature to select this power. The effects last until the start of his next turn, but may be reapplied. (3,6,9 rage)
Elemental Rage(su): The Barbarian transforms her attacks into powerful elemental strokes. Damage from every attack this round is converted into elemental damage of the barbarian's choice (fire, electricity, acid, cold, sonic). The barbarian must be character level 9 or higher to select this power. (6 rage)
Guarded Stance)(ex): as per 3.P.0.2 pg 10.
Taunt(ex): As an attack action, the Barbarian makes a disparaging comment about her foe's mother, or otherwise insults him. The foe must pass a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha mod) or be unable to take any actions aside from moving directly towards the barbarian and attacking the barbarian with a melee or ranged weapon on that foe's next turn. This compulsion only lasts one turn, and is a mind-affecting effect. (Sharing a language is unnecessary, gestures and tone convey the message sufficiently) (3 rage)
Knockback(ex): The barbarian may make an immediate bullrush check against each foe she hits this round, and that foe moves back the full distance without the Barbarian moving with them. In addition, add 5' to the distance moved, even if the Barbarian's check result was otherwise insufficient to move them. (6 rage)
Mighty Swing(ex): As per 3.P.0.2 pg 10.
Moment of Clarity(ex): As per 3.P.0.2 pg 10 except it only costs 3 rage.
Powerful Blow(ex):As per 3.P.0.2 pg 10.
Battle Sense(ex): The barbarian has blindsense 30' for the round. (3 rage)
Battle Mastery(su): The barbarian gains blindsight to a range of 5'/character level for this round. This power requires character level 11 and Battle Sense. (6 rage)
Rolling Dodge(ex): As per 3.P.0.2 pg 11.
Roused Anger(ex): As per 3.P.0.2 pg 11, but append 'the barbarian may unlearn this power and replace it with another one upon acquiring Tireless Rage.
Strength Surge(ex): as per 3.P.0.2 pg 11.
Surprise Accuracy(ex): as per 3.P.0.2 pg 11.
Swift Foot(ex): as per 3.P.0.2 pg 11.
Greater Taunt(ex): The barbarian's taunting is incredibly hard to ignore. As Taunt, but a foe who fails his will save must make a new will save each of his turns (excluding the first) to master his anger, or continue to be compelled as per taunt in that turn. A barbarian may not take this rage power until character level 9. (12 rage)
Mass Taunt(ex): The barbarian may taunt all foes within 30' as per the taunt ability. This power is a mind-affecting ability. You may not take this power until 9th character level and it requires Taunt. (9 rage)
Howl(ex): The barbarian lets out an animalistic yell. All enemies within 30' of him my make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha mod) or be panicked. This is a mind-affecting ability. (6 rage)
Terrifying Howl(ex): The barbarian lets out a bloodcurling shout, causing fear as the fear spell except in a 30' radius around the Barbarian. The save DC is 10+1/2character level+cha mod. A barbarian may not select this ability unless he has the Howl power. (12 rage)
Howl of Lost Souls(su): The barbarian lets out an otherworldly keening which chills enemies to the bone. All enemies within 30' must make a Fort Save (DC 10 + 1/2 character level + cha mod) or die. A successful save makes that enemy immune to this power for 24 hours. This power is a mind-affecting ability, and cannot be selected by a character under 17th character level. Selecting this power requires the Terrifying Howl power. (21 rage points)
Battle Leap(su): The barbarian makes a mighty jump, rapidy covering the distance to his enemies. He uses strength instead of dexterity on his acrobatics check, takes no ACP, and may replace standard high jump DCs with twice the DC for a similar distance in long jumping. He also receives a +30 rage bonus to his jump check. He does not provoke AoOs during the jump. A barbarian of character level less than 9 may not select this power. (3 rage)
Cleave the Earth(su): The barbarian stomps the earth as a standard action hard enough it quakes. This duplicates the effect of an Earthquake spell within a 30' radius of the barbarian (although the Barbarian is immune to its effects), and the DC to remain standing is 10+1/2 character level+str mod. This power requires character level 13 and the Strength Surge power (18 rage).
Improvised Weapon of Legend(su): In his rage the barbarian can use almost anything as a weapon. When activated, the barbarian may proficiently use any object that vaguely approximates a weapon he is proficient with and up to 1 size category larger than he could normally wield per 3 character levels. For example, a tree could be used as a club or maul approximation given sufficiently many levels. The weapon deals damage appropriate to its size. If the object is bolted or rooted in place, the barbarian may generally be assumed to be able to tear it free if he can use it in this manner unless it is magically held, and picking up the weapon requires a move action. This power may not be chosen before 9th character level, requires strength surge, and each use of the power lasts for one turn. (9 rage points)
Stone Thrower(su): When activated, the barbarian can throw rocks and catch rocks as a giant of CR = his level (choose the closest when there isn't one at his level). This power lasts until his next turn. Requires Strength Surge and 9 character levels. (6 rage)
Everything Turns Red(su): The barbarian may activate this power as an immediate action to ignore one mind-affecting effect that targets him before making his save. He need not save against it, it simply has no effect on him, even if it normally allows no save. This ability requires a character level of 11. (12 rage)
Berzerker(su): The barbarian doesn't just attack like a savage animal, he literally begins to transform into one. Instead of his weapon attacks he gets two claws (2d6 damage for a medium creature, primary, treat them as manufactured weapons for iterative attacks). He also benefits from the two weapon rend feat with these claws. This power lasts until his next action. Requires character level 9 and the Animal Fury power (12 rage).
Chill of the North Wind(su): The barbarian takes a great breath and exhales a freezing wind. This breath affects everything within a cone 5'/character level long, and deals 2d6 cold damage/character level to all creatures in that line (reflex save DC 10+1/2 character level + str mod for half). It also has all the effects of a Gust of Wind spell. Activating this power is a standard action, and it has duration:instantaneous (although it effects creatures immediately as per gust of wind despite being shorter in duration). Choosing this power requires a character level of 11. (18 rage)
(I'm sure other useful powers could be created. Consider these examples, not yet playtested but closer than what currently exists to being right I'm sure).
Indomitable Will (ex): While raging, 1/round the barbarian may elect to re-roll a will save he failed between his previous turn and this one. The results of the new will save replace those of the old.
Irresistible Force (su): While raging, whenever a barbarian encounters a magical barrier he may attempt to break it. He makes a caster level check using his character level. Success means the barrier is broken (dispelled). Ultimately what qualifies as a magical barrier is up to the DM's discretion, but spells like Wall of Force and Force Cage certainly qualify.
Greater/Mighty Rage: as per 3.P.0.2 except they each only cost and require 1 rage point to enter and maintain each round. A barbarian may choose to enter a lesser rage when he rages if he wishes.
The Dr might be a tinge too high. I would like to see it equal half the barbarians level, thus also granting the ability much sooner then normal. Maybe every odd to go opposite to gaining a rage power (and also granting it on first level).
Also just a few of those abilities might be too powerful, such as the death scream and ice breath (especially with how much they can be used)
Lady Melo wrote: The Dr might be a tinge too high. I would like to see it equal half the barbarians level, thus also granting the ability much sooner then normal. Maybe every odd to go opposite to gaining a rage power (and also granting it on first level). Lets consider the CR 19 and 20 monsters for a moment vs. DR 15/- (ignoring dragons, who are misCR-ed and aren't too bothered by that DR).
Tarrasque: DR 15/- makes the claws useless, but the bite gets through with 4d8+2 after DR. And the tailslap expects to get throuh a little less than half the time. Sounds like reasonable 20th level defenses for a class who's designed to soak up melee damage.
Balor: The balor gets through some damage 35/36 times, but its not especially significant. Of course, he doesn't care, he's going to kill you with his spell-likes.
Pit Fiend: He gets more damage through than the Balor, and he's dropping a quickened fireball on top of himself each round to boot. He also gets to try to grapple and constrict for enough damage to matter. And he also has some killer spell-likes.
Those are all the non-dragon CR 20 monsters in the MM. There are no non-dragon CR 19 monsters in it. I could repeat this for the other DR levels. That amount of DR is nice, and actually noticeable (aka worth having), but not gamebreaking in the slightest.
Lady Melo wrote:
Also just a few of those abilities might be too powerful, such as the death scream and ice breath (especially with how much they can be used)
The 'death scream' is only available at level 17 and is mind-affecting. We can look at all high (17+) CR monsters.
CR20
Tarrasque: Fort +38...
Balor: He has Unholy Aura up, and so is immune (its mind-affecting).
Pit Fiend: Like the Balor, he's immune for the same reason.
CR18
Nightcrawler: Undead, and therefore immune
CR17
Aboleth Mage: Can have Protection from Good (immune), it has a Fort +15 which is a decent shot, and its likely misCRed because its a class/monster combination that assumes spellcasting levels add to difficulty linearly when combined with monster HD that don't increase casting ability (Provably false). More likely CR 13-15.
Marilith: Unholy Aura = immune. Fort +19 is a pretty good shot (against DC 18+cha mod at level 17) even without it.
Formian Queen: Magic Circle vs. Chaos = immune. And Fort +19 as above.
Frost Giant Jarl: Fort +25... yeah, not so much.
So its actually not very useful against powerful opponents at all. Can it clear out hordes? Yep, within 30' at least. That sounds a little weak for a *17th* level ability... maybe I should make it 15th level...
That's all the Core monsters CR 17 and above that aren't dragons by the way. I could check some other MMs, but if anything they're probably nastier.
Edit: I should note that the high cost of powers like the two you mention means that not only do they have a realistic cap of 6-8 uses/day, but they also seriously limit the barbarian's other rage options during the day.
And the cold breath power deals damage and effects like a 6th level Evocation spell *should*. Evocation magic is seriously underpowered, and assuming it as a balance point just doesn't work. I'm comparing this Barbarian to wizards who are casting Disintegration, Flesh to Stone, and Mass Suggestion, not blast mages, because that's where the balance point is. (Evocation should also be improved - something i've posted about on other boards in the past).
DR *is* too high - barely getting scratched by a Balor is hardly an appropriate measure.
Irresistible Force - Considering this is an EPIC Prestige class ability that is usable only *once* per day, this is heavily over-powered at 9th level. Also Walls of Force and Force Cages cannot be dispelled.
Majuba wrote: DR *is* too high - barely getting scratched by a Balor is hardly an appropriate measure.
Irresistible Force - Considering this is an EPIC Prestige class ability that is usable only *once* per day, this is heavily over-powered at 9th level. Also Walls of Force and Force Cages cannot be dispelled.
Most of the epic rules are a mistake in one way or another. Either by representing an ability as being higher level than it really should be (often the case with martial character abilities) or handing out abilities that are over-the-top when used literally (really, don't get me started). I prefer to ignore them entirely.
Its an ability that is *necessary* to game balance. If the barbarian is meant to be the 'walks through magic to chop down the evil wizard' that people seem to envision him as in stories (Conan, etc...), he needs abilities that *let him do that*. Knocking down a wall of force *2 levels* after wizards became able to cast one is perfectly reasonable.
Further, wall of force can be dispelled, it just isn't effected by dispel magic. 'Dispelled' has meaning independent of the spell dispel magic and wall of force doesn't prevent it from being dispelled at all. As this is not a spell or spell-like ability, the text of Wall of Force (which says it is unaffected by most *spells*) is totally irrelevant. And as it specifically says it affects wall of force, it does.
If it makes you happy, I can reword it just to say 'ends the effect' rather than 'dispelled'.
And I really don't care how much damage the Balor does, and neither does the Balor. It kills him with spell-likes if it wins (which i noted), not damage. Balor damage is *awful* for CR 20. A level 20 rogue (also a CR20 threat) deals 11d6 element damage/hit with ranged touch attacks, and TWFs for a massive damage load - the Barbarian's massive DR doesn't help at all. If the rogue did opt to actually use a physical weapon the average of 11d6 is 38.5 damage, of which the barbarian's DR absorbs less than half. And that's *per attack*, meaning a rogue inflicts some serious pain on the Barbarian despite DR 15/-.
Whoops, I forgot to stick a 15th level ability in there. Embarassing. I'm open to suggestions - something should probably go there. Maybe an Indomitable Will improvement (may try any one failed Will Save again each round, regardless of how long its been since the spell started effecting him?)
Hmmm... that 'Battle Leap' is actually a good and thematically "proper" ability for the barbarian, but otherwise I wouldn't add any "Howl of the Dead"- or "Wind from the North"-type of supernatural abilities to the "generic" barbarian. ;)
Asgetrion wrote: Hmmm... that 'Battle Leap' is actually a good and thematically "proper" ability for the barbarian, but otherwise I wouldn't add any "Howl of the Dead"- or "Wind from the North"-type of supernatural abilities to the "generic" barbarian. ;) Nothing requires you to take it if it doesn't fit your flavor. But past 9th level you're serious equal to or better than the Norse Gods from the Eddas (who consider Frost Giants a real threat) and for whom a Fire Giant is a sign of the apocalypse. Supernatural comes with the territory.
By level 17 you're passing the high end of superhero comic levels of awesome.
Howl of Lost Souls is an extrapolation of the 'the barbarian yells really loudly' into the realm of mythic territory, where the barbarian simply yells so forcefully or so eerily his foes just drop dead. I can actually probably dig up stories where characters *do this* if i tried hard enough, it sounds like something sufficiently badass that someone thought of it already. I know of stories where characters blow freezing wind. And 17th level isn't just mythic territory, its *past* mythic territory.
So if you don't like that kind of character concept, don't take those abilities (or don't play really high levels). No one forces you to. But they're thematically-appropriate and level-appropriate abilities for characters who are characters of legend in their world.
(And I really don't want to discuss 'why supernatural' anymore in this thread. I disagree, I'm looking at heroes mightier than Hercules, Beowulf, and Perseus put together, and they deserve truly awe inspiring and cinematic abilities that are wholly supernatural.)
Squirrelloid wrote: Improvised Weapon of Legend(su): In his rage the barbarian can use almost anything as a weapon. (SNIP) This particular power is something that needs to be in there and one my group argued for in our recent playtest report. However it would be better if it simply removed the penalty for improvised weapons and was available from the start. As it stands it could get ridiculous and very Exalted, very fast.
I'll not comment on the other powers as I'm away from my Alpha right now and don't want to re-download it. :)
Peace,
tfad
tallforadwarf wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Improvised Weapon of Legend(su): In his rage the barbarian can use almost anything as a weapon. (SNIP) This particular power is something that needs to be in there and one my group argued for in our recent playtest report. However it would be better if it simply removed the penalty for improvised weapons and was available from the start. As it stands it could get ridiculous and very Exalted, very fast.
I'll not comment on the other powers as I'm away from my Alpha right now and don't want to re-download it. :)
Peace,
tfad See, I like the idea of it getting ridiculous. I actually want the barbarian to be able to pick up a redwood tree at 20th level and smack some deity upside the head with it. We're talking levels where wizards rewrite reality every 6 seconds - nothing is over the top in that sort of world.
That said, as it intrinsically scales with character level, i'm not convinced it shouldn't be available from the start... I'll think about it. And as noted, these things need some playtest tuning, I just think they're reasonably close.
Squirrelloid wrote: Asgetrion wrote: Hmmm... that 'Battle Leap' is actually a good and thematically "proper" ability for the barbarian, but otherwise I wouldn't add any "Howl of the Dead"- or "Wind from the North"-type of supernatural abilities to the "generic" barbarian. ;) Nothing requires you to take it if it doesn't fit your flavor. But past 9th level you're serious equal to or better than the Norse Gods from the Eddas (who consider Frost Giants a real threat) and for whom a Fire Giant is a sign of the apocalypse. Supernatural comes with the territory.
By level 17 you're passing the high end of superhero comic levels of awesome.
Howl of Lost Souls is an extrapolation of the 'the barbarian yells really loudly' into the realm of mythic territory, where the barbarian simply yells so forcefully or so eerily his foes just drop dead. I can actually probably dig up stories where characters *do this* if i tried hard enough, it sounds like something sufficiently badass that someone thought of it already. I know of stories where characters blow freezing wind. And 17th level isn't just mythic territory, its *past* mythic territory.
So if you don't like that kind of character concept, don't take those abilities (or don't play really high levels). No one forces you to. But they're thematically-appropriate and level-appropriate abilities for characters who are characters of legend in their world.
(And I really don't want to discuss 'why supernatural' anymore in this thread. I disagree, I'm looking at heroes mightier than Hercules, Beowulf, and Perseus put together, and they deserve truly awe inspiring and cinematic abilities that are wholly supernatural.) I think your concept is, indeed, a bit too much influenced by the Eddas. Therefore, I don't think some of those abilities (like the ones I mentioned) are thematically "approbriate" for the *generic* barbarian (i.e. "Conan-ish").
And I seriously disagree with you about the 17+ level barbarians surpassing the "high end" of the superhero comics -- equal to Conan or Slaine, surely, but not supernatural or superheroic, at least in my opinion.
Asgetrion wrote: I think your concept is, indeed, a bit too much influenced by the Eddas. Therefore, I don't think some of those abilities (like the ones I mentioned) are thematically "approbriate" for the *generic* barbarian (i.e. "Conan-ish").
And I seriously disagree with you about the 17+ level barbarians surpassing the "high end" of the superhero comics -- equal to Conan or Slaine, surely, but not supernatural or superheroic, at least in my opinion.
I can use evidence from not the Eddas, its just the Eddas honestly have more classical characters possibly analogous to Barbarians than anyone else, and sufficient gods actually fighting stuff to compare the power level of their conception of *gods* to D+D monsters. Greek mythology is far less useful in this way, because we rarely see the Gods fight anything, and their heroes are all 10th level (Hercules) or less.
Conan is seriously a 3rd-5th level character. 17+? Ha. He doesn't do anything or fight anything even remotely that powerful. Melee characters are not competitive at high levels at present - they should be Superman at 17th level, instead they're Aquaman (without the swim speed or dolphin buddies... oh wait, that's all Aquaman has going for him...).
You took my Ideas... Renamed them poorly (taunt imo=not thematic)
made them into lesser and greater versions with out so much as a nod at me. Wow.
Not very cool.
Where SquirrelLord got his ideas (i.e. from me in his Barbarian Playtest thread)
Midnight_v wrote: 1 The post about a rage power that gives spell resistance is good but a smart wizard knows about spell resistance and will just acid fog you or something... really spell resistance isn't a bad a deteriment to "good" wizards as advertised
I have a few barbarian suggestions...
Over on the charops boards I write the consolidated Barbarians handbook along with zendu...
This probbably goes in a different thread but... basically,
1. the barbarians shuold not have to pay to maintain thier rage. Use the origianal rage and add rage points...
So you can then have a rage power like
Extend rage: 2 rp your rage lasts an additional round you may use this anytime your rage would end.
but thats just part of the problem.
A couple more.
Ignorance: “He is a barbarian, and thus thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature”
12 RP, Barbarian may ignore any spell effects ongoing or cast at him until the start of his next turn, *he recieves a will save to treat any summoned or gated creature and its effects as thought they were summoned by the shadow conjuration spell
(Unlike spell resitance this or a similar wording would actually DO something about forcecage and the likes)
Alternatively and proabbably more palettable to some would be use this ability to treat any spell effect you encounter as "Will negates" but only for the barbarian.
Beligerance:
"Why do you still stand! Kneel, kneel before your king!" Aeon glanced down at his party kneeling at his side, Pssting him or tugging at his pant leg. He the leveled a steely eyed glance around the audience chamber, leveled staring hard at the king. "Kneel in the prescence of lowlanders? and spit in the direction of the High Protector who had been shouting orders at him. "No."
6 rage points
(ex) All opponents with an intelligence score within a 30 foot radius must make a will save or are forced spend thier next action attacking the barbarian.(this may be with spells or whatever attack is standard for that opponent) You may spend 3 rp points each round to extend this ability for another round. The opponents are allowed a new saving throw each round to end this effect.
I'm not saying that you didn't refine it but it is a bit insulting like you came up with this by yourself when its a rehash in a way of what I said.
Squirrelloid wrote:
Conan is seriously a 3rd-5th level character. 17+? Ha. He doesn't do anything or fight anything even remotely that powerful. Melee characters are not competitive at high levels at present - they should be Superman at 17th level, instead they're Aquaman (without the swim speed or dolphin buddies... oh wait, that's all Aquaman has going for him...).
to go with your analogy of comic book caracters a 3-5th level person in a comic book is anyone who gets a name who isn't killed 2 frames later - because once a hero actually starts meeting people long enough to get their names a villain is sure to show up.
Batman is most likely around lvl 10 or so monk/5 thief without his gagits.... with them he's closer to 10 monk/5 thief/6 wizard. Conan is most like straight barbarian around 12th lvl. He's taken on 5 wyverns and 3 frames later a Roc by himself without resting in one of the older comics...
Batmans a wizard... Robin is his familiar
Everyone should know this. Google the "Guide to being Batman"
Lets not bring Logicninja into this, please...
Midnight-v wrote: You took my Ideas... Renamed them poorly (taunt imo=not thematic)
made them into lesser and greater versions with out so much as a nod at me. Wow.
Not very cool.
Sorry you feel snubbed, but dude, I might as well cite Diablo II, who give _Barbarians_ a power that does more or less what I wrote. I mean, yes, you put it to text on this forum before I did, but I played Diablo II ages ago. (And similar topics have come up in other threads with other similar suggestions by other people, both on this board and elsewhere). Its a common thought on things Barbarians could and should be doing. Dredging up an exhaustive list of 'people who have mentioned something like this in the past' is seriously not worth my time, and you are but the most recent.
Cpt_kirstov wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
Conan is seriously a 3rd-5th level character. 17+? Ha. He doesn't do anything or fight anything even remotely that powerful. Melee characters are not competitive at high levels at present - they should be Superman at 17th level, instead they're Aquaman (without the swim speed or dolphin buddies... oh wait, that's all Aquaman has going for him...).
to go with your analogy of comic book caracters a 3-5th level person in a comic book is anyone who gets a name who isn't killed 2 frames later - because once a hero actually starts meeting people long enough to get their names a villain is sure to show up.
Batman is most likely around lvl 10 or so monk/5 thief without his gagits.... with them he's closer to 10 monk/5 thief/6 wizard. Conan is most like straight barbarian around 12th lvl. He's taken on 5 wyverns and 3 frames later a Roc by himself without resting in one of the older comics... The comics are not a canonical source - the books are (For Conan). Edit: That said, I'm not familiar with the comics at all, only somewhat familiar with the books. And nothing I recollect says more than 5th level.
And Batman is most definitely a wizard. (Remember Gnomish Artificer from the 3e Faerun books? Yeah, that's him).
Hawkeye is ~5th level. Captain America is ~7th. Common people who get a name might not even rate 1st level in a PC class - they're probably mostly level 1 aristocrats. (Except for characters like Mary Jane, who clearly has gained some levels at this point).
Jubilee is a level 1 sorceror in UXM 244 (1st appearance). Seriously. She casts something near Pyrotechnics and Prestidigitation and Flare. And she remains somewhere in the 1st-3rd ballpark until she leaves the X-Men for Gen X almost 100 issues later.
Squirrelloid wrote:
Hawkeye is ~5th level.
I'll give you Jubilee. I think you're under-powering Cap a bit - but I'm not sure exactly where I would put him - prolly around 10.
Hawkeye has too many feats to be ~5 as you say though at 5th he would have 2 ffeats +1 for being human.yet he has a;; 5 archery feats, improved unarmed strike, deflect arrows, quick draw, and weapon specialization:compound bow - and those are just the ones he uses in 75% of his fights.
then again - i still go by what i said about 1200 posts ago... that superhero should be an epic level prestige class that you gain every feat in the PHB available to your class....
Cpt_kirstov wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
Hawkeye is ~5th level.
I'll give you Jubilee. I think you're under-powering Cap a bit - but I'm not sure exactly where I would put him - prolly around 10.
Hawkeye has too many feats to be ~5 as you say though at 5th he would have 2 ffeats +1 for being human.yet he has a;; 5 archery feats, improved unarmed strike, deflect arrows, quick draw, and weapon specialization:compound bow - and those are just the ones he uses in 75% of his fights.
then again - i still go by what i said about 1200 posts ago... that superhero should be an epic level prestige class that you gain every feat in the PHB available to your class.... Ah, see, you're trying to actually build them in D+D rules, I'm looking at the type of opposition they can handle on their own and judging their power level (in general - Jubilee just also really obviously has 1st level sorc spells). So Hawkeye is down the power totem pole pretty far, and he rates about as powerful as a 5th level PC (CR 5 if you will). Because I'm not really interested in what I can build in D+D right now, I'm insterested in the types of things I *should* be able to build in D+D at a given level. (And I think Hawkeye is a Fighter btw, which might help you with your feat conundrum). So when I say Superman is a 17th level martial character, I think that's near where 17th level martial characters should be power wise, not that I could build Superman right now (maybe as a wizard..., but he really isn't at all wizardly in the comics).
I never did understand this assumption of levels of characters. It results in attempting to reverse-engineer anything they faced into crazy town. Take virtually any Greek hero and what they fought, and instead of assuming that they have to be upper teens, look at the already designated challenges. Someone fought a Medusa in melee combat with a magic shield, and a medusa's only CR 7, which makes our little hero about level 7 or 8 himself (Medusa are alot easier when you're protected against their gaze).
There have been several articles doing this less arbitary comparison, and it results in a vast portion of myth being within the realm of characters lower than level 10.
When you realize this, upper level characters are larger-than-larger-than-life. Nightingale the Robber should be available to the non-spellcaster, so this resistance to supernatural abilities is puzzling, to say the least.
Squirrelloid wrote:
So when I say Superman is a 17th level martial character, I think that's near where 17th level martial characters should be power wise, not that I could build Superman right now (maybe as a wizard..., but he really isn't at all wizardly in the comics).
You can't build Superman using character classes, because Superman gets his abilities from his race and the power of the Earth's yellow sun.
Jal Dorak wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
So when I say Superman is a 17th level martial character, I think that's near where 17th level martial characters should be power wise, not that I could build Superman right now (maybe as a wizard..., but he really isn't at all wizardly in the comics).
You can't build Superman using character classes, because Superman gets his abilities from his race and the power of the Earth's yellow sun. ... someone has missed the point.
@Virgil: Yeah, I agree with you 100%
Virgil wrote: I never did understand this assumption of levels of characters. It results in attempting to reverse-engineer anything they faced into crazy town. Take virtually any Greek hero and what they fought, and instead of assuming that they have to be upper teens, look at the already designated challenges. Someone fought a Medusa in melee combat with a magic shield, and a medusa's only CR 7, which makes our little hero about level 7 or 8 himself (Medusa are alot easier when you're protected against their gaze).
There have been several articles doing this less arbitary comparison, and it results in a vast portion of myth being within the realm of characters lower than level 10.
When you realize this, upper level characters are larger-than-larger-than-life. Nightingale the Robber should be available to the non-spellcaster, so this resistance to supernatural abilities is puzzling, to say the least.
I don't know if I would be so swift to make these claims, though. Yes, Perseus fought and killed a medusa, a CR 7 creature - but it wasn't really a medusa, it was the Medusa, which suggests to me advancement, class levels, or both. (The rules insist on class levels, but I wouldn't necessarily hold myself to that.) Similarly, other mythic heroes rarely fight creatures that are simply members of a species; they are typically unique, and thus probably not bog-standard MM versions. Even if you want to claim that they are, you're making an assumption to do so, and not one everyone would be willing to support.
Shisumo wrote: Virgil wrote: I never did understand this assumption of levels of characters. It results in attempting to reverse-engineer anything they faced into crazy town. Take virtually any Greek hero and what they fought, and instead of assuming that they have to be upper teens, look at the already designated challenges. Someone fought a Medusa in melee combat with a magic shield, and a medusa's only CR 7, which makes our little hero about level 7 or 8 himself (Medusa are alot easier when you're protected against their gaze).
There have been several articles doing this less arbitary comparison, and it results in a vast portion of myth being within the realm of characters lower than level 10.
When you realize this, upper level characters are larger-than-larger-than-life. Nightingale the Robber should be available to the non-spellcaster, so this resistance to supernatural abilities is puzzling, to say the least.
I don't know if I would be so swift to make these claims, though. Yes, Perseus fought and killed a medusa, a CR 7 creature - but it wasn't really a medusa, it was the Medusa, which suggests to me advancement, class levels, or both. (The rules insist on class levels, but I wouldn't necessarily hold myself to that.) Similarly, other mythic heroes rarely fight creatures that are simply members of a species; they are typically unique, and thus probably not bog-standard MM versions. Even if you want to claim that they are, you're making an assumption to do so, and not one everyone would be willing to support. *facepalm*
That's because there *weren't* species of them. In Greek Mythology they *are* unique. D+D worlds are even more badass - we don't have just one mortal gorgon (= Medusa), we have many Medusae! But one Chimera? Forsooth no, we have *hundreds of them*.
D+D took unique creatures from mythology and made them into standard monsters. Medusa from greek mythology is *a medusa* in D+D. Same thing.
Squirrelloid wrote:
D+D took unique creatures from mythology and made them into standard monsters. Medusa from greek mythology is *a medusa* in D+D. Same thing.
but that said, they also made the effects 'dumbed down' s that a normal adventuring party (below epic) could fight them take the medusa's
Petrifying Gaze (Su)
Turn to stone permanently, 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.
there was no saving throw in greek mythology.... Perseus didn't get lucky, ge got smart. if the Gaze were auto death - no save what would her challenge rating be? 15-18? higher? thats what the greek Medusa was.
Cpt_kirstov wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
D+D took unique creatures from mythology and made them into standard monsters. Medusa from greek mythology is *a medusa* in D+D. Same thing.
but that said, they also made the effects 'dumbed down' s that a normal adventuring party (below epic) could fight them take the medusa's
Petrifying Gaze (Su)
Turn to stone permanently, 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.
there was no saving throw in greek mythology.... Perseus didn't get lucky, ge got smart. if the Gaze were auto death - no save what would her challenge rating be? 15-18? higher? thats what the greek Medusa was. Stupid. That's what her CR would be.
Because this is D+D, and it would suck as a game if you died with no save. That was 1st edition, and all of us who played it are either glad to be done with that nonsense or sadists.
there were actually 3 gorgons (ie. Medusae.)
In other news I wish I'd played diablo now.
Okay so when are you gonna give play test results for this. Hopefully we can all say that this change is universally "Good" and it makes it into pathfinder. I had been thinking about this since the other thread and what I realize is the Rage Point barbarian is some what a psiwar.
Which is great because many feel that the psiwar is one of the better designed classes in existance.
In the end I don't care who came up with it, I just wonder will any change that we make on these boards be added to the final version or even the next trial? I wonder what the odds are...
hmmm...
Squirrelloid wrote: *facepalm*
That's because there *weren't* species of them. In Greek Mythology they *are* unique. D+D worlds are even more badass - we don't have just one mortal gorgon (= Medusa), we have many Medusae! But one Chimera? Forsooth no, we have *hundreds of them*.
D+D took unique creatures from mythology and made them into standard monsters. Medusa from greek mythology is *a medusa* in D+D. Same thing.
Facepalm indeed.
You're either missing or ignoring my point. In either case, it's sufficiently off-topic that I don't really see the point in continuing the discussion here, but I might suggest that tact can be a great ally in not getting yourself banned.
Midnight-v wrote: there were actually 3 gorgons (ie. Medusae.)
In other news I wish I'd played diablo now.
Okay so when are you gonna give play test results for this. Hopefully we can all say that this change is universally "Good" and it makes it into pathfinder. I had been thinking about this since the other thread and what I realize is the Rage Point barbarian is some what a psiwar.
Which is great because many feel that the psiwar is one of the better designed classes in existance.
In the end I don't care who came up with it, I just wonder will any change that we make on these boards be added to the final version or even the next trial? I wonder what the odds are...
hmmm...
I'll try to get on playtesting this in the near future. I just recently finished the Mage playtest, or at least finished to my satisfaction that it goes to crazytown faster than wizards in 3.5 did (even assuming you're not using obscenely broken stuff).
Squirrelloid wrote: Jal Dorak wrote: Squirrelloid wrote:
So when I say Superman is a 17th level martial character, I think that's near where 17th level martial characters should be power wise, not that I could build Superman right now (maybe as a wizard..., but he really isn't at all wizardly in the comics).
You can't build Superman using character classes, because Superman gets his abilities from his race and the power of the Earth's yellow sun. ... someone has missed the point. Not necessarily, what I was implying was that you are off in assuming Superman is the equivalent of a 17th level martial character. He would indeed possess some wizardly powers, but wouldn't function as a wizard.
Hence my geek side pointed out the advantage D&D, if you feel Superman is CR 17 (or 18, or 29) just design a CR XX monster that has all of Supermans abilities, as you should never be able to replicate him with a core class, he is just too powerful all the time.
He's not really ignoring your point, but dismissing it as a valid. Requiring that Medusa be more powerful just because she was written in a story, is completely arbitrary. She was somewhat tough in a fight, and turned people to stone with her ugliness, which isn't anything we see beyond the creature medusa. Names don't give power, except in a story fiat manner, and just because something had a name shouldn't mean we translate their ability far outside what they're actually capable of.
As for the OP, I think Taunt could stand to only be used against creatures of Intelligence 3+, because of the required intelligence to get insulted (much like hideous laughter). I can't really tell the difference between Howl and Terrifying Howl, except that the more advanced one costs twice as much. Speaking of which, you need to put a duration on Howl, because otherwise you're making people running scared for a very long time.
A giant's stone seems to be a thrown weapon two size categories smaller than the giant himself (and a fixed range for their size), which makes me wonder if it's possible to combine Improvised Weapon of Legend with Stone Thrower.
Chill of the North Wind does immense damage, in a good sized cone (auto-hit), targets the worst of the saves for monsters (generally), and a successful save doesn't reduce it to only 5d6. You've made comparisons to disintegrate in regards to this spell, but that is already a 6th level spell, of which Chill is leaps better. It really should be in the 15th or 17th level rage power territory.
Lady Melo wrote: Also just a few of those abilities might be too powerful, such as the death scream and ice breath (especially with how much they can be used) As long as the most powerful abilities are (a) expensive to use, and (b) level-appropriate, I don't think there's a problem with them. I'd rather have things "de-magicked" a bit (e.g. I'd rather see a mass decapitation attack than "Howl of Lost Souls"), but that's just a matter of flavour.
I certainly agree that the abilities need to be tinkered with. My primary complaint is that there are many expensive, weak abilities. One round of barbarian rage is quite valuable (extra Str + Con, bonus to Will saves) and only costs one point. So is a single 1d6 bite attack (Animal Fury) six times better? Not in my opinion; at low levels, it's wa-a-a-ay too expensive to use, and at high levels, who cares about an extra 1d6+6 damage? The same goes for Increased Damage Reduction (DR 1/-- for 6 pts?), Renewed Vigor (1d8 healing -- as a standard action -- for 9 pts?) and Elemental Fury (1d6 dmg for 12 pts?); they're too expensive at low levels, and too weak at high levels.
So the abilities either need to be better (which is what S. is suggesting) or cheaper. Either way would be an improvement.
Personally, I would rather see the Barbarian, Paladiin, Ranger, and Monk all be built out of a base 'Warrior Class', with options at each level (much like the Ranger has now with a choice of going Bow or Two-Weapon).
All of those classes can be built by giving the fighter Feats that duplicate those class abilities.
That would be my personal preference - it just seams like there is too much redundancy amongst those classes. After all, if your good at fighting, your good at fighting - the rest is just 'flavor' (weapon choices, fighting styles, armor wearing, etc...)
Seriously, if you just have a multiclass Fighter/Priest, there's really not much point to having a Paladin class - just have 'Spiritual Mount' be a Feat, and be done with it.
Anyway, I know this was about Barbs, and what you've done there is fine, although I would agree some of the stuff needs to be better balanced.
Virgil wrote: He's not really ignoring your point, but dismissing it as a valid. Requiring that Medusa be more powerful just because she was written in a story, is completely arbitrary. She was somewhat tough in a fight, and turned people to stone with her ugliness, which isn't anything we see beyond the creature medusa. Names don't give power, except in a story fiat manner, and just because something had a name shouldn't mean we translate their ability far outside what they're actually capable of. (sigh) All right, one more.
Squirrelloid's own argument reveals the fallacy of the comparison. As he quite correctly points out, there are entire species of medusae and chimerae in D&D, while the Greek originals were unique creatures.
This means, by definition, that what Perseus slew was not a medusa.
Now, it is perfectly acceptable to claim that Medusa had the same stats as a medusa. Doing so, however, is "completely arbitrary," to borrow your words. There really is no reason to do so, per se; it certainly is not verifiable in any meaningful sense. Moreover, I can fairly easily construct meaningful counterarguments against it, both from a narrative point of view (do people make mythic stories out of someone killing an elephant, which is also a CR 7 creature?) and from an game-rule standpoint (one could theoretically make a reasonable attempt at Perseus' level via the Wealth by Level guidelines - his gear seems to require at least 12th level, and then only if he spent his money very strangely). So no, the comparison is not valid, and cannot be relied on to make valid statements about the level of anyone from a mythos not directly tied to the D&D milieu.
^^^ seriously, WTF^^^
Could you please argue about the build, or design... or something of more relavance to The Barbarian re-write, that this greek mythology tangent?
What would you do to fix the build, please? Not to fix SqL's logic...
I'm trying to keep that part (mythology) as an aside in regards to the original point of the thread.
Either way.
I have another point to make on the class, the Bezerker ability. You need to be a bit more specific in its wording. Maybe it would be better described as a dual-wielded unarmed strike (with the TWF feats & Two-weapon rend) instead of a manufactured claw attack.
I'm going to be using a similar style of build to Baughdvnleob (I) from my other Barbarian playtest thread here. Some things are going to change because I want to use new and/or altered rage powers, and thus the build will change slightly.
At level 1 they're identical, and Baughdvnleob I performed just fine, and so I'll ignore that with Baughdvnleob II
Note: I'm intentionally avoiding a large disposable item load. It makes it easier to analyze the class itself.
Baughdvnleob II, Dwarf Barbarian
S 16 +3
D 13 +1
C 16 +3
I 10 +0
W 14 +2
C 6 -2
Racial Traits: Slow and Steady, Dkvis 60', stonecunning, keen senses, Greed, Hearty, Weapon Familiarity, Hatred, Defensive Training, Stable
Languages: Common, Dwarven
Level 4:
BAB: +4
Skills (ranks): Perception 4, Acrobatics 4, Climb 4, Survival 4
Class Features: Rage (+4 str/con, +2 will, -2 AC, 28 Rage points), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Indomitable Will
Rage Powers: Battle Sense, Surprising Accuracy
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave,
Equipment (~4k/5.4k): Greataxe +1, Composite Longbow (+5), Breast Plate +1, potion of delay poison, 50' rope, grappling hook, portable ram, 3 bags of caltrops, flint and steel, 20 arrows each of various metal types
Combat Statistics:
Senses:
Perception +9 (+11 taste/touch or stonework traps)
Darkvision 60'
Initiative: +1
Mobility:
Move: 30'
Climb +6 (incl. -4 ACP, +2 rage)
Acrobatics +4 (incl. -4 ACP)
Defenses:
HP: 43.5 (51.5 when raging)
AC: 17 (15 rage, +4 vs. giants)
CMB: +7 (+4 vs. bullrush/trip, +2 rage)
Fort +7 (+2 rage) / Ref +5 / Will +3 (+2 rage)
+2 vs. spells, poison
Offenses:
Great Axe +8 (1d12 + 5) (+2/3 rage)
Bite Attack (Animal Fury) +9 (1d6+5) (rage only)
Composite Longbow +5 (1d8+5) (rage only)
CMB +7 (+2 rage)
Option: Powerattack (-3 attack, +3 damage)
Option: Cleave (Full attack = An attack that hits procs an additional attack against another target)
Option: Rage (28 pts)
Option: Battle Sense (Rage Power, 3 rage, Blindsense 30')
Option: Animal Fury (Rage Power, 6 rage, +bite attack)
EL 4 challenges
A Water-Filled Room Trap
An Aranea
A Five-Headed Hydra
A Centipede Swarm
A Pair of Blink Dogs
A Pair of Huge Monstrous Centipedes
A Pair of Quasits
An Elf Wizard 4
A Sea Hag
An Endless Sea of Rats (ok, not endless, but a freaking huge number of them)
A Water-Filled Room Trap
Five rounds until drowning to get through a Stone Door (hardness 8, 60hp). We rage, for 1d12+11 with the axe and pop animal fury for 1d6+8 damage, dealing 12 damage per turn on average (and after hardness). Unfortunately, We can only animal fury for 4 of those turns, which means on average we don't chop our way out in time.
Probable Loss (Baughdvnleob I was utterly dedicated to dealing as much damage per hit as possible - it really helps in this kind of challenge)
An Aranea
It tries the web schtick again, but Baughdvnleob II can rage, pop animal fury, and trivially rips the web to shreds with his teeth. This gives him a full round to try to get at the Aranea. Of course, its probably ambushing from a tree, which means charging it is hard, but we can try archering the thing to death without penalties.
It has AC 17 (it cast Mage Armor 2 hours ago). We're already raging, so we expect (.45*9.5) 4.275 damage per turn, which will take 6 turns to kill it. Over that time it can drop up to 5 sleep spells (it doesn't bother with the webs after it sees Baughdvnleob II rip the first one to shreds), of which some of them (about 2) could be disrupted (average DC 20 spellcraft check, which it makes 45% of the time), so lets say it loses one of them. That's 4 DC 13 will saves - not pretty. Fortunately, we have Indomitable Will, which basically gives us 2 saves per sleep effect. So we care about the odds that we make at least one of two 6+ d20 rolls four times (wow, what a mouthful).
P(make a 6+ roll on a d20|2 rolls) = 1-P(make no 6+ rolls on a d20) = 1-.25^2 = 93.75%
P(make 4 of the above) = .9375^4 = 77% of the time.
We win if we make all the saves.
Probable Win (Animal Fury effectively gives us an extra web negating action each round we need it, meaning the Aranea is more vulnerable because we aren't entangled - and even then we have to suffer through most of the Aranea's offensive arsenal - Indomitable Will is a life saver).
A Five-Headed Hydra
Yeah, we die. If anyone really has any doubts about this i'll give a more specific analysis. Fortunately, this isn't our schtick.
Certain Loss
A Centipede Swarm
Not our schtick, we can't damage it and run away.
Certain Loss
A Pair of Blink Dogs
Let me just quote Baughdvnleob I's performance:
Squirrelloid wrote: Blink dogs are ambush monsters, which means they're going to try to surprise Baughdvnleob. Unfortunately for Baughdvnleob, despite low Hide and worse perception, they live on the plains, which means LLV dominates perception checks because they suffer fewer negative modifiers at long distances. And Dim Door as an 8th level wizard is a long distance. Blink dogs pop in and get a surprise round. Of course, they have a relatively weak attack at a low attack bonus, and so expect to deal (.4*3.5) 1.4 damage per attack, while Baughdvnleob dispatches the pair in 4-5 rounds of combat fairly trivially.
Certain win. Blink dogs deal insufficient damage to be worrying. They just don't have quite enough punch to make their great defenses pay off.
Its all still true.
A Pair of Huge Monstrous Centipedes
We'll just assume Baughdvnleob II gets to quaff his potion of delay poison to start with and see how that goes first.
They expect to deal (.45*11) 5 damage per attack on average, or (.55*11) 6 damage if Baughdvnleob II rages. There are two of them.
Baughdvnleob II expects to deal (.75*14.5) 10.875 damage per axe attack while raging (power attack deals .375 less average damage). He can cleave for (.75^2 * 14.5) 8.15 average damage on the other one. He can also use Animal Fury to get an additional (.7*8.5) 5.95 damage.
As a quick approximation, Baughdvnleob deals a total of 25 expected damage per round and has killed both of them in three rounds. They deal an average of 12 damage per round, and fail to kill Baughdvnleob II in 3 rounds.
The dex damage poison doesn't effect Baughdvnleob II's offense, merely his defense. Each failed save expects to reduce his dex by 3.5. Baughdvnleob fails a save 10% of the time, and expects to take 3 such saves, with the odds that he fails no save being 72.9%. Even if he fails a save, the it reduces his AC by 1 on average for an increase in damage of .5/hit, not enough to kill him over 3 rounds.
Certain Win. Cleave is reasonably awesome in this fight, and Animal Fury helps too. He also burns 21 rage points doing this on average - but given its a life-threatening situation, that's pretty reasonable.
A Pair of Quasits
Two DC 11 will saves, popped from surprise (because they have Invisibility at will, and thus get a surprise round), against a piddly +5 (not raging yet) Will save. Without Indomitable Will he'd be running almost 50% of the time. With Indomitable Will he's only running a little more than 12% of the time. In combat they hit trivially, but their poison DC isn't impressive, and neither is their damage - he splatters them if it goes to Melee.
Probable Win. This is the same as Baughdvnleob, but I'm starting to think Baughdvnleob's fight was actually Even and not a Probable Win. Regardless, Baughdvnleob II does better.
Elf Wizard 4
This could go lots of ways depending on spell load-out. Web and Grease can be real problems for Baughdvnleob II, but will save spells (top tier ones are going to be DC 16) give Baughdvnleob two 60% chances to make over two rounds (1-.4^2 = 84% chance of making one of those saves), really hampering effectiveness. And some of those spells can have their effects partially compensated for by Battle Sense (ie, any blindness effects like Glitterdust). Against Grease Baughdvnleob II may fail the initial save, but he has ranks in acrobatics to help him in subsequent rounds, meaning it just buys the wizard a little time. Web grapples, with a DC of 16 on a CMB BaughdvnleobII can extract himself about 60% of the time, so again its going to primarily buy time.
Protection from Arrows/Levitate and a crossbow are still a good idea, which leads to a rather annoying drawn out bow combat. The right save or lose spam combined with time-buying options like Web or Grease may force Baughdvnleob II to make enough saves that he fails.
Even fight. Indomitable Will really limits the effective options the wizard has, meaning the wizard is far less likely to be packing the right spells for the job. This turns into a race for Baughdvnleob II to overcome whatever obstacle spells the wizard throws in his way before he fails to a save-or-lose spell that actually disables him. Of course, the wizard could choose wrong and succeed with a glitterdust or similar, which Baughdvnleob II has answers for.
A Sea Hag
This is the kind of monster you really want a potion-thrower rogue to deal with. First up we have a DC13 Fort Save or 2d6 str damage just from looking at her. Then she gets 3 dire gazes which proc 2 save or lose effects each (Will DC 13 or dazed for *three* days, DC 13 Fort or die), and none of these are spells, so no dwarf bonus. We tie for initiative, meaning we can rage for the save bonus before the first evil eye about half the time. And on top of all this we simply can't melee her - she sits in the water and looks at us funny.
Baughdvnleob's option is ranged combat, which expects to deal (.6*8.5) 5.1 damage a turn, taking 4 turns to kill her, so she gets to dump all her effects on him. And Baughdvnleob II doesn't even get that option if her looks scare him, because he won't be strong enough to draw his bow.
25% chance of being scared of her looks => auto-loss/run away
42% Chance Baughdvnleob II dies to being looked at funny (averaging out the effects of winning initiative and getting to rage before the first one or not)
66% Chance of being dazed for three days, despite Indomitable Will.
Certain Loss. There's just so much stacked against Baughdvnleob II in this fight its not even funny.
An Endless Sea of Rats
Cleave helps a little bit, but it still takes at least 15 rounds to kill 30 rats. Over which time they expect to deal over 50 damage to Baughdvnleob II, which is going to kill him.
Certain Loss. (Yes, expendable items could help. But the barbarian class doesn't).
Performance Review
Certain Win 2
Probable Win 2
Even 1
Probable Loss 1
Certain Loss 4
4.25 out of 10. Low end of balanced, but balanced. A full 1 point improvement over Baughdvnleob I.
Thoughts:
Animal Fury is ok in the rewrite, because it guarantees its in addition to all your other actions that round (something the Paizo write-up is painfully unclear about). Its not good, however... and I'm not convinced its worth 6 rage. I'm seriously considering making it 3.
I'm worried about the Cleave feat going into the next level of testing. Paizo hit it with a gigantic nerf bat in limiting it to a full round action, while improving it by always letting you have it so long as you hit. I'm not sure how I feel about this in the long run - i think having it be a 1/round swift action to activate the extra attack would have been better, as then you could only use it 1/round, but retain its use during a normal attack action or during an actual full attack. Its not like its going to overpower melee classes. Its still leaps and bounds better than Overhand Chop, though.
Virgil wrote: As for the OP, I think Taunt could stand to only be used against creatures of Intelligence 3+, because of the required intelligence to get insulted (much like hideous laughter). I can't really tell the difference between Howl and Terrifying Howl, except that the more advanced one costs twice as much. Speaking of which, you need to put a duration on Howl, because otherwise you're making people running scared for a very long time. Whoops, that's because I screwed up and chose the wrong condition name... A fix is in the works. I'll post an update after I get some more playtesting done.
It is a mind-affecting effect, that does require them to have a mind. But I can see your point that an Int 2 creature probably doesn't care. I'll be looking at all the 'verbal' powers in the near future and doing some rebalancing to make sure it all works.
Virgil wrote:
A giant's stone seems to be a thrown weapon two size categories smaller than the giant himself (and a fixed range for their size), which makes me wonder if it's possible to combine Improvised Weapon of Legend with Stone Thrower.
I certainly wouldn't object =) It won't be nearly as broken as Hulking Hurler whatever you do.
Virgil wrote:
Chill of the North Wind does immense damage, in a good sized cone (auto-hit), targets the worst of the saves for monsters (generally), and a successful save doesn't reduce it to only 5d6. You've made comparisons to disintegrate in regards to this spell, but that is already a 6th level spell, of which Chill is leaps better. It really should be in the 15th or 17th level rage power territory.
Hmm... I could reduce the damage from a failed save more. I consider Disintegrates secondary effect really nasty. I don't find 2d6/level to actually be that significant, and if you're fighting enough mooks that area effect spells are really awesome, you were just going to clobber them at these levels anyway. I'm more interested in the 1-4 monster match-ups than the horde of guys match-ups most of the time. (The only hordes that are scary at mid-high levels are puzzle monsters with attacks that target things other than hp - Shadows, Spectres, etc...).
Squirrelloid wrote: Majuba wrote: Irresistible Force - Considering this is an EPIC Prestige class ability that is usable only *once* per day, this is heavily over-powered at 9th level. Its an ability that is *necessary* to game balance. If the barbarian is meant to be the 'walks through magic to chop down the evil wizard' that people seem to envision him as in stories (Conan, etc...), he needs abilities that *let him do that*. Knocking down a wall of force *2 levels* after wizards became able to cast one is perfectly reasonable.
Wall of Force is a 5th level spell, wizards cast at 9th level - Same level as the ability.
Majuba wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: Majuba wrote: Irresistible Force - Considering this is an EPIC Prestige class ability that is usable only *once* per day, this is heavily over-powered at 9th level. Its an ability that is *necessary* to game balance. If the barbarian is meant to be the 'walks through magic to chop down the evil wizard' that people seem to envision him as in stories (Conan, etc...), he needs abilities that *let him do that*. Knocking down a wall of force *2 levels* after wizards became able to cast one is perfectly reasonable.
Wall of Force is a 5th level spell, wizards cast at 9th level - Same level as the ability. So it is. Even better for balance! Uncounterable options are bad for the game. (I thought I had given Irresistible Force at 11th level... whoops. I was filling in blank levels created by removing some stuff, so i'm not overly surprised I forgot which level the blank was in).
All your play tests are inherently flawed right from the beginning, CR4 is not meant for 1 level 4 character to overcome, but instead a party of 4 to 6 characters. So I don't understand why you insistent on running these play tests with just one character.
Secondly, I don't know what kind of dungeons you play in, but the ones in my games have stuff, like rocks, walls, furniture, etc. I know what you're going to say, "not part of the mechanics" but you're wrong. There has been many a time where the terrain has been an advantage for a character, and sometimes when it's not, but never just a void of empty space.
You also need to know the rules better so you are not always back pedaling when someone points out mistakes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to fact check yourself.
I think that you've really missed what D&D is all about, cooperation and storytelling. These play tests are useless because you're not playing the game, it's just you and the calculator, and that's not D&D. Get some friends together and PLAY test with the characters that you made and the dungeon you designed. Take some notes and then come back and report. I would love to know how each character does when working together, but as it stands now your play tests are mind numbingly boring.
Note: I'm intentionally avoiding a large disposable item load. It makes it easier to analyze the class itself.
Also, the intention here is to make a caster-slayer barbarian. Hence Iron Will (which is otherwise a relatively poor feat choice)
Baughdvnleob II, Dwarf Barbarian
S 18 +4
D 13 +1
C 16 +3
I 10 +0
W 14 +2
C 6 -2
Racial Traits: Slow and Steady, Dkvis 60', stonecunning, keen senses, Greed, Hearty, Weapon Familiarity, Hatred, Defensive Training, Stable
Languages: Common, Dwarven
Level 7:
BAB: +7
Skills (ranks): Perception 7, Acrobatics 7, Climb 7, Survival 7
Class Features: Rage (+4 str/con, +2 will, -2 AC, 49 Rage points), Fast Movement, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Indomitable Will, DR 3/-
Rage Powers: Battle Sense, Surprising Accuracy
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Iron Will
Equipment (~18.2k/19k): Greataxe +1, Composite Longbow (+6), Mithril Platemail +1, Belt of Strength +2, potion of delay poison, oil of magic weapon, 50' rope, grappling hook, portable ram, flint and steel, 20 arrows each of various metal types
Combat Statistics:
Senses:
Perception +12 (+14 taste/touch or stonework traps)
Darkvision 60'
Initiative: +1
Mobility:
Move: 30'
Climb +11 (incl. -3 ACP, +2 rage)
Acrobatics +8 (incl. -3 ACP)
Defenses:
HP: 72 (86 when raging)
AC: 20 (18 rage, +4 vs. giants)
DR: 3/-
CMB: +11 (+4 vs. bullrush/trip, +2 rage)
Fort +8 (+2 rage) / Ref +6 / Will +6 (+2 rage)
+2 vs. spells, poison
Offenses:
Great Axe +12/+7 (1d12 + 7) (+2/3 rage)
Bite Attack (Animal Fury) +13 (1d6+6) (rage only)
Composite Longbow +8/+3 (1d8+6) (rage only)
CMB +11 (+2 rage)
Option: Powerattack (-4 attack, +4 damage; -6/+6 while raging)
Option: Cleave (Full attack = An attack that hits procs an additional attack against another target)
Option: Great Cleave (As cleave, but can keep making attacks as long as he hits and has new targets, all attacks 'at the same bonus' to hit)
Option: Rage (49 pts), +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will Save, -2 AC
Option: Battle Sense (Rage Power, 3 rage, Blindsense 30')
Option: Animal Fury (Rage Power, 6 rage, +bite attack)
Option: Surprise Accuracy (Rage Power, 6 rage, +7 to hit to one attack)
Note: Surprise Accuracy has great synergy with Great Cleave, because unlike Cleave is says that subsequent attacks are *at the same bonus*, meaning you get to use the Surprise Accuracy bonus *all round long*. Which actually makes it worth that steep 6 rage point price tag.
May wrote: All your play tests are inherently flawed right from the beginning, CR4 is not meant for 1 level 4 character to overcome, but instead a party of 4 to 6 characters. So I don't understand why you insistent on running these play tests with just one character.
Secondly, I don't know what kind of dungeons you play in, but the ones in my games have stuff, like rocks, walls, furniture, etc. I know what you're going to say, "not part of the mechanics" but you're wrong. There has been many a time where the terrain has been an advantage for a character, and sometimes when it's not, but never just a void of empty space.
You also need to know the rules better so you are not always back pedaling when someone points out mistakes. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to fact check yourself.
I think that you've really missed what D&D is all about, cooperation and storytelling. These play tests are useless because you're not playing the game, it's just you and the calculator, and that's not D&D. Get some friends together and PLAY test with the characters that you made and the dungeon you designed. Take some notes and then come back and report. I would love to know how each character does when working together, but as it stands now your play tests are mind numbingly boring.
The rules provide for parties of 1 to infinity. There's no *rules preference* for a party of 4-6, although there is a culture preference (its a useful number of people to game with).
You can't analyze a full party playtest for class balance, anyway. The data is meaningless and incomprehensible because you can't tell if someone is overperforming and someone else is underperforming. Multiplicative interaction of variables -> impossible to separate them out. In order to answer the question 'is this class balanced' you need to isolate the class and test its performance. This is standard scientific methodology.
And this is a lot more data than getting 5 people to run through an adventure once. This tells you what is expected to happen, not anecdotally what happened one time. Anecdote is not a good basis to argue from. If you find statistics boring, *don't read them*.
Regardless, the rules say this is how a 1 character party should perform against challenges EL=level. (Ie, 50-50 fight on average). If you don't like that methodology, this isn't the place for that - propose a better methodology that's actually capable of getting the relevant data or accept the fact that this is the best way of doing it. And if you still don't like it, ignore it and let those of us who care continue without being berated about it.
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There are a lot of rules in D+D. Some occasionally slip my mind. There's a lot of rules look-up to do. And most of us have been playing with so many houserules that its easy to get confused or to make a mistake. Its not that hard to go back and re-evaluate when you find you did something incorrectly, and no one can remember every single part of the game. If you have a specific problem with the ultimate evaluation, make your case and I'll reconsider the specific outcomes in question. Revising data evaluation based on better data is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Squirrelloid wrote: Regardless, the rules say this is how a 1 character party should perform against challenges EL=level. (Ie, 50-50 fight on average). If you don't like that methodology, this isn't the place for that - propose a better methodology that's actually capable of getting the relevant data or accept the fact that this is the best way of doing it. And if you still don't like it, ignore it and let those of us who care continue without being berated about it. But I believe May has proposed a better methodology, that being to play the game as it is most likely to be played: by more than one player. These tests, while entertaining, are pretty much useless given that the expected use is for a group of characters. The only thing these tests are proving is that the CR system isn't perfect and that a creature's CR is not balanced against a lone PC. Yes, there are a lot of variables to a full party playtest. Being that this game is "a product of your imagination" as the ads used to say, I would sort of hope so.
So what do you do? You do what every play testing/CR balancing text I've ever read says to do: get 4 players and run them through an encounter. Now run it again. Now run it again. Change the environment. Change some variables that are likely to change in actual play. Run it again. Takes lots of notes. Asks the players lots of questions. Will you get hard numbers, mathematically crunchable numbers? Not really, no. But this isn't Texas Instruments Presents Adventures in Log Land. Your tests are sitting down and eating an egg, then some butter, then some sugar, then some chocolate chips, then sitting under a heat lamp. A real game is a chocolate chip cookie.
Squirrelloid wrote: If you find statistics boring, *don't read them*. I think you misunderstood, I don't find statistics boring at all, I find your play tests boring.
I stand by what I say, your play tests are useless, go take a look at a White Dwarf Magazine and read the battle reports. They are interesting, fun to read, and are useful in deciding what armies do what, and how they run together. Your play test don't tell me what it's like to run a barbarian, all it says is I would have a % chance verses this or that. Tell me how a barbarian works with a party, as a whole.
Infamous Jum put it perfectly, when he said that you are eating an egg, then butter, and then a chocolate chip. I want the whole cookie!
And telling me it's too hard to play test a full party is a load of crap, if you have the time to crunch all those numbers, then you have the time to sit down with some friends and run the scenario a couple times.
Show me that you really do know something about D&D, because as of right now, it seems like you've never actually sat down and played the game as intended.
May wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: If you find statistics boring, *don't read them*. I think you misunderstood, I don't find statistics boring at all, I find your play tests boring.
I stand by what I say, your play tests are useless, go take a look at a White Dwarf Magazine and read the battle reports. They are interesting, fun to read, and are useful in deciding what armies do what, and how they run together. Your play test don't tell me what it's like to run a barbarian, all it says is I would have a % chance verses this or that. Tell me how a barbarian works with a party, as a whole.
Infamous Jum put it perfectly, when he said that you are eating an egg, then butter, and then a chocolate chip. I want the whole cookie!
And telling me it's too hard to play test a full party is a load of crap, if you have the time to crunch all those numbers, then you have the time to sit down with some friends and run the scenario a couple times.
Show me that you really do know something about D&D, because as of right now, it seems like you've never actually sat down and played the game as intended. White Dwarf battle reports are useless. They put together armies that are a random mishmash of units which often don't compliment each other, there's rarely any sense of real strategy, and they keep playing games until the army of the month wins one and write that one up for White Dwarf. Gamesworkshop is the premier example of 'we can't be bothered to playtest our rules or release errata on a timely basis'. And yes, I do play 40k.
I'm not saying its too hard to get 5 guys and run a game. I'm saying that doesn't tell you *anything* about whether the Barbarian is doing level appropriate things. The players could blow past everything you throw at them, but if the Barbarian's effective contribution isn't near 25% its hardly fair to the person playing the Barbarian - and you won't be able to know that the class is failing to perform since the party is just dominating everything it comes across.
Playtesting with a group works great for testing out an adventure, because you get data about the level of threat of the challenges faced in the adventure. That's one variable. If you try to use it to analyze classes you're conflating, in a multiplicative way, 4 variables that are themselves the sums of internal class variables, and your ability to analyze anything goes to hell.
Seriously, read a book or take a class on experimental design.
And I've been playing D+D in one form or another for over 16 years. These playtest results conform to what I've experienced over the life of 3e.
Edit: Regardless, this is off topic in this thread and I will not respond to further posts of this nature here.
It seems that the argument of whether a 1 character versus equal CR to level is viable has been flogged with no likely conclusion. Some people think its a good model some don't. All that has seemed to result from them is a lack of civility which, I was told, we are trying to avoid.
Might we stop filling these threads using the model with the same argument again and again. It is distracting the people doing this work from, well, doing this work.
If people have a better way of evaluating each class please provide them in an appropriate thread.
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