Just wondering if there has been any dev chat on Level Adjustment? I truely hate LA and I know I'm not alone. I plead with the Pathfinder Devs to use something else for "more advanced player races." Sure you can just simply disallow them but we all know that's not going to happen, there needs to be rules set up for it and I believe they need to be in the Player's Guide.
Someone is going to want to play a drow at least so something needs to be set up. My personal ideas....either 1) A monster class system similar to what was in Monteys UA/UE or what was in the 3.0 Savage Species. I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of those systems either but at least they are better then LA. The other option is 2) simply de-power the races and somehow make them equal to the base races.
Now, it looks like PF has already helped with this by upping the power of the base races. In fact I think you could almost make a drow right now that is equal to the base elf.
Just wondering what others thoughts are and if the Dev's hve posted anything on this yet?
LA is a nice idea, allowing players to use stronger than PHB races at lower levels without being an absolute powerhouse character overshadowing the rest of the party.
However, it begins to break down about 10th level, particularly with races/templates with a LA of 3 or more. A half-celestial is impressive at low levels, but when he's still 16th level and the rest of the party is 20th, even with his powers he's more of a glass cannon, and if a spellcaster isn't as effective there either.
The LA Reduction system of UA is a decent system, although races with LA 4 or higher end up having to go into epic to completely remove their LA.
I think the best way to handle LA races is to figure out when their abilities stop providing a significant bonus (the drow SLAs aren't as impressive after 3rd-4th level for instance, though their SR is always good) and allow the character to either "buy out" a point of LA somehow or have it automatically drop.
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Well, LA serves the function of determining what starting level a non-core race is. It often penalizes characters, because of the glass canon effect, losing out on HD, saves, hit points, skills and feats.
On the Pro-LA side, people looking for optimized characters should play core races, and suffering a penalty for wanting to play something 'wierd' is a fine deterrent.
Ont the Con-LA side, the racial abilities you gain and stat boosts you receive are nowhere near as robust as a class level, and to withhold that is a major setback, especially for spellcasters.
I dunno -- offer basic hit points and BAB for a Level Adjustment?
I've thought about giving "levels of commoner" (without the skill points) for each level of LA.
That would give bab (though low), saves (also low) and HP (similarly- low).
While it wouldn't be "omgtoopowerful" it would also keep the levels from being pure 100% wasted space.
I've thought about giving "levels of commoner" (without the skill points) for each level of LA.
That would give bab (though low), saves (also low) and HP (similarly- low).
While it wouldn't be "omgtoopowerful" it would also keep the levels from being pure 100% wasted space.
That's actually a pretty good idea.
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That's actually a pretty good idea.I've thought about giving "levels of commoner" (without the skill points) for each level of LA.
That would give bab (though low), saves (also low) and HP (similarly- low).
While it wouldn't be "omgtoopowerful" it would also keep the levels from being pure 100% wasted space.
agreed, although I wouldn't let them get those till about 10th level because at low level they'd be even stronger.
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I'd like to see a system similar to Savage Species introduced, Monster Levels.
Basically as a level 1 character you get abilities equal (or alittle better) then the standard races and your class level. When you level up, you have a choice of leveling up as a monster (and gaining new abilities) or leveling up your class.
Stuff like Levitation and Spell Resistance for Drow would for example be their level 3 or 4 ability, which could easily explain away why every Drow doesn't levitate or whatever (like they did in AD&D.)
Native Outsiders can be raised normally. Asimar and Tieflings qualify. Most planetouched in fact are native outsiders. It's the extraplanar subtype that's a bit more dicey, but the spell compendium (which is not OGL, I know) did introuduce a raise spell just for them.
If your planetouched dies, as an outsider, there is NOTHING short of a wish or True Resurrection that will bring them back. In fact, as it stands now in the PRPG spell list, there isn't even an option for them. As wish's effect conforms now to a standard Resurrection, and there IS no 9th level True Resurrection on the spell list.
I use the FR Planetouched in my own campaign as a LA0 race and I think it works out rather well. I agree however that I think they could now be added back in as a player race as listed in the SRD Monster Manual. I agree they are pretty much equal to the PF Core races.
Bumping up the core races solves a huge swath of the problem as many of the "non-core" races people want to play are LA +1. But there are still those others that are problematic. I use Minotaurs in my own campaign as a standard race as well as Ogers and that can cause some problems. Right now I'm using the Savage Species method but that doesn't solve all the problems.
If your planetouched dies, as an outsider, there is NOTHING short of a wish or True Resurrection that will bring them back.
Monster Manual (3.5), p.312, left column, Native Subtype.
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
If your planetouched dies, as an outsider, there is NOTHING short of a wish or True Resurrection that will bring them back.Monster Manual (3.5), p.312, left column, Native Subtype.
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Actually leaving them as Outsider might help to balance the race a bit more, if they can't be raised that is.
The biggest problems I saw with the ECL/LA system was:
That some races received racial hit dice and some dont. I think if ECL is continued in Pathfinder then either ECL Races should have racial hit dice or none should.
Secondly (related to racial hit dice), Hit Points are a major problem where ECL is concerned. While a drow may have some very nice and powerful abilities a level 1 drow in a level 4 party is not going to last long given his single hit die and it can be debated if a drow is actually ECL +3 or even +2. This becomes less of a problem at higher levels, but remains one through the mid levels.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Another problem with LA is that even if it's balanced, you are essentially screwing with the major perk of a level based system, requiring a certain level of competency in every area in order to raise your own. Think of it as a point-buy system. In exchange for hit dice, which give HP and saves and BAB, you are buying even more power in your specialty. It's like a more extreme version of the faults mechanic.
What about have a set of generic LA +0 races that can be modified to provide the generic idea of the target creature from the start and other abilities could be gained by taking race specific feats that might grant spell-like abilities and other abilites.
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Actually leaving them as Outsider might help to balance the race a bit more, if they can't be raised that is.
I'm not so confident that having abilities that only affect you when you die should be used for balancing races. It really doesn't feel like a good idea to me, just like calling a race balanced because they have role-playing problems with other characters bothers me.
Actually leaving them as Outsider might help to balance the race a bit more, if they can't be raised that is.
Tieflings and AAsimars are not Outsiders, they are Outsiders with the Native Subtype and so can be raised... Forgotten Realms has an alternative to change them from Outsiders(Native) to Humanoids(Planetouched) which then removes the LA because they can now be affected by a lot more spells (Charm Person for example).
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If your planetouched dies, as an outsider, there is NOTHING short of a wish or True Resurrection that will bring them back. In fact, as it stands now in the PRPG spell list, there isn't even an option for them. As wish's effect conforms now to a standard Resurrection, and there IS no 9th level True Resurrection on the spell list.
Um they specifically say that if it isn't in the PRPG then it is the same as it's PHB twin so unless true ressurection isn't in the PHB then it is still in and still on the spell list, maybe the reason they made the change is because a true res breaks the rules of wish, since it is only supposed to be able to duplicate 7th level spells of other classes. True Res however is still on the pathfinder spell list in the same way true strike is, unchanged from the PHB version.
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I would definitely agree that a Hobgoblin is no longer a +1 LA, as the base races have all been given an extra stat boost, effectively making PC races "elite" which is fine by me.
I would like to see something like a debt penalty until paid off mechanic. Something like advance on slow chart until 3rd level.
I would definitely agree that a Hobgoblin is no longer a +1 LA, as the base races have all been given an extra stat boost, effectively making PC races "elite" which is fine by me.
I'd also like to nominate the Kobold for LA -1. [URL=smurf][/URL]
EDIT: I can't stealth-smurf anymore. Boo-hoo.
Um they specifically say that if it isn't in the PRPG then it is the same as it's PHB twin so unless true ressurection isn't in the PHB then it is still in and still on the spell list, maybe the reason they made the change is because a true res breaks the rules of wish, since it is only supposed to be able to duplicate 7th level spells of other classes. True Res however is still on the pathfinder spell list in the same way true strike is, unchanged from the PHB version.
If your planetouched dies, as an outsider, there is NOTHING short of a wish or True Resurrection that will bring them back. In fact, as it stands now in the PRPG spell list, there isn't even an option for them. As wish's effect conforms now to a standard Resurrection, and there IS no 9th level True Resurrection on the spell list.
Monster Manual pg 312... Native Subtype... Raise Dead and Reincarnation works just fine on Aasimars and Tieflings... no need for True Ressurection, but it works as well...
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I would definitely agree that a Hobgoblin is no longer a +1 LA, as the base races have all been given an extra stat boost, effectively making PC races "elite" which is fine by me.I'd also like to nominate the Kobold for LA -1. [URL=smurf][/URL]
EDIT: I can't stealth-smurf anymore. Boo-hoo.
in other words they get a free class level? I think I'd only play goblins. (the other race deserving of a -1 LA and my favorite race to play typical or atypical)
Oh man I got smurfed by someone else that's just not cool.
SMURF YOU!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
*ahem*
I've always been a big kobold fan, and get miffed whenever they get manhandled (like why the hell did they become lizards?!). Back at 3.0 we always said that kobold PCs should get a free character level just for sucking so hard.
I also find it funny that kobolds and goblins, among the weakest of monstrous humanoids, in mythology are some of the scariest creatures around (I'm looking mostly at the goblins for this one).
I would definitely agree that a Hobgoblin is no longer a +1 LA, as the base races have all been given an extra stat boost, effectively making PC races "elite" which is fine by me.
I would like to see something like a debt penalty until paid off mechanic. Something like advance on slow chart until 3rd level.
Xaaon, I would say with the boosts the core races have received, most ECL races would be one less. The planetouched for example are not ECL+1 in my opinion when compared to the core races. Nor are Hobgoblins unless they also get boosted. The Gray Orcs of Realms would also no longer be ECL +1 compared to the new half-orc.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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I would definitely agree that a Hobgoblin is no longer a +1 LA, as the base races have all been given an extra stat boost, effectively making PC races "elite" which is fine by me.
I would like to see something like a debt penalty until paid off mechanic. Something like advance on slow chart until 3rd level.
Xaaon, I would say with the boosts the core races have received, most ECL races would be one less. The planetouched for example are not ECL+1 in my opinion when compared to the core races. Nor are Hobgoblins unless they also get boosted. The Gray Orcs of Realms would also no longer be ECL +1 compared to the new half-orc.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Agreed, which is pretty cool in my opinion, as it gives a wider range of races for people to play right off the bat. Which is always nice.
Kobolds were hairless egg-layers in the 1e Monster Manual, and the picture illustrating them shows both scales and tails. So, I'd say kobolds became lizard-things in 1977 at the latest. (Their 2e monster entry specifically mention scales, tails, and eggs; their Rules Cyclopedia entry specifically mentions scales.)
Edit:
Oh, wait, you asked why, not when. Well, since the guy who made the decision is now dead, so I guess we'll never know, unless he told someone.
That's actually a pretty good idea.I've thought about giving "levels of commoner" (without the skill points) for each level of LA.
That would give bab (though low), saves (also low) and HP (similarly- low).
While it wouldn't be "omgtoopowerful" it would also keep the levels from being pure 100% wasted space.
I've been thinking along the same lines, though including 2 skill points per level ("class skills" for the LA are determined by race or class)
Kobolds were hairless egg-layers in the 1e Monster Manual, and the picture illustrating them shows both scales and tails. So, I'd say kobolds became lizard-things in 1977 at the latest. (Their 2e monster entry specifically mention scales, tails, and eggs; their Rules Cyclopedia entry specifically mentions scales.)
Edit:
Oh, wait, you asked why, not when. Well, since the guy who made the decision is now dead, so I guess we'll never know, unless he told someone.
DND Basic Edition copyright 1983, under kobold: "These evil dog-like men usually live underground." I don't have the 1e MM anymore so I can't comment on the picture but they still are doglike in DND if not ADnD... and i personally still portray them as doglike regardless of the newer fluff: Gnoll=big nasty Hyena, Kobold=short annoying Mexican Hairless Dog.
And I assume that you mean Gygax when refering to the deceased... by 1st edition TSR was a multiple person enterprise and i cannot comment on wether Gygax personally oversaw the Kobold entry in the 1st edition Monster Manual.
The big problem with LA right now is that you get -nothing- for it.
If you are a +3 LA critter then at first level you have 1hd, but are facing off against CR 4 creatures.
HP (and spells) are usually what drive people away from those races.
While it might be interesting to play a half-dragon, the penalties by far outweigh the advantages, mainly because you are a one shot wonder. (i.e. one shot, and it's a wonder if you survived.)
Stat boots and even SLA's aren't usually enough to make up for the sheer disparity in HP.
Hence why I said I'd consider adding the 3 low boosts to the otherwise blank LA.
d4hp, 1/2 bab, and crap saves (or no saves, or no bab)
would give the character at least enough HP to not be so much of a glass cannon without being so overwhelmingly powerful as to drastically overshadow the group.
I am on the fence about whether or not those "commoner" levels should get +con to hp. I would think that decision should be based entirely on the circumstance. (low ability score, low magic, low power campaigns? probably not. high ability score, high magic, high power campaigns? probably so, etc)
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One of you (pardon, i forgot who.. and hit "post" rather than "reply" so it won't tell me while i'm typing) suggested holding off on that until level 10. I'm not sure what you mean by that, nor am I sure it would do any good.
If you were +3la, do you mean at 10ECL you would suddenly get 3 levels of hp/bad bab/bad saves? or that the "commoner levels" wouldn't begin go accumulate unless they had more than (heaven forbid) +10 LA?
If the former then it's fairly pointless unless the campaign is already in the 10+ ECL range. you Need the extra HP when you are 1hd/3LA, not 5-7 levels later when you already have several class levels under your belt.
While no one would turn down a few extra d4 of hp, the purpose is to increase survival for the +LA character. Yes, it does by default make them more powerful- but that is the idea. But by giving them the lowest of the low, all it really tends to do is put them a little closer to where they probably *should* be.
And of course- if there is some odd race/class combo that would take painful advantage of this "rule" then it could easily be altered/removed to take care of such person.
-S
The 2nd Ed MC has Kobolds as doglike
Look, I'm not doing this from memory, I'm opening the actual books in front of me and referencing them.
Let me quote the first sentence of the second paragraph of the AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium 1 entry for the kobold, which is duplicated exactly in the AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual:
"Barely clearing three feet in height, kobolds have scaly hides that range from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black."
Go, look it up. That's what it says. Scales.
Now, let's go over to the Habitat/Society section, second paragraph, second sentence, again identical in both:
"In a lair there will be 5-20 (5d4) bodyguards, females equal to 50% of the males, young equal to 10% of the males and 30-300 (3d10x10) eggs."
Again, look it up, that's what it says. Eggs.
Now, it also says they had a smell "like a cross between damp dogs and stagnant water" and a language "which sounds like small dogs yapping", but they were egg-layers wit scaled skin.
and I'm not sure which 1st ed MM you have with reptilian kobolds but I recall the opposite.
4th Edition, August 1979, both the one with the original cover (in electronic format) and the one with the red dragon cover (hardcopy). Pictures of scaled kobolds on both p. 57, right column, and on the full-page illustration on p.58. The snout of the kobolds are certainly doglike, but the kobolds are equally and obviously scaled.
And to quote the second paragraph, second sentence on the monster entry on p.57:
"If 200 or more kobolds are encountered in their lair there will be the following additional creatures there: 5-20 guards (as bodyguards above), females equal to 50% of the total number, young equal to 10% of the total number, and 30-300 eggs."
Yep, eggs again. And below:
"The hide of kobolds runs from very dark rusty brown to a rusty black. They have no hair."
Kobolds, until 3.0, were goblinkind.
Yes, they were. They were also reptiles. This, I agree, doesn't make a lot of sense. But whether it makes sense or not, they were scaly egg-layers, too.
Now, to finish this off, let's quote the D&D Rules Cyclopedia (copyright 1991) exactly:
"These small, evil, doglike humanoids usually live underground in in clans of 10 to 60 members. They have scaly, rust-brown skin no hair."
Doglike, yes. But scaly; no hair, no fur.
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LA is needed but with slight tweaks like the elements of commoner levels idea above but it should be noted that if the NPC classes follow the PC class rules, commoners will now have d6 HD rather than d4, and experts will have d8s and warriors d10s.
On another aspect of this kobolds suck badly as do goblins and even base line orcs are suboptimal so we should probably come up with ideas to up the races power levels (kobolds having Cha +2 and Str penalty reduced to -2 maybe) (goblins get +2 to Int in addition to existing modifiers) (orcs lose -2 to Wis perhaps) and this is even without taking anything but ability modifiers into account
This, as much as I hate LA as it stands NOW, is something I disagree with. With Pathfinder races, lowering the LA by One in most cases is a great adjustment. And I do mean this across the board. I believe that Aasimar & Tieflings, Genasi & others all deserve a fair chance. Do I think that all races deserve to have their LA's removed? Nope. DO I think some of them are just ridiculous LA's? Yes. It is a case-by-case basis, and you should discuss that with your DM, or house rule as you see fit. Figure out how you run campaigns, and make the options available to players that fit that campaign style.
/d
LA has always been the necessary evil rule.......
Agree that a lot of the LA + 1 races could be downgraded fairly easily but for the higher LA's i have some thoughts
1 - Racial Levels (but allow a bit more flexibility than Savage species and mix in PC levels before you complete the racial levels - I house rule that your racial levels >= PC levels until you max out racial. I also give feats / skills per level rather than per HD to keep things simpler for the players)
I've converted a few templates (Half-dragon) to Racial Levels without much trouble.
2 - Racial abilities as feats. Based Eberron and shifters / warforged / kalashtar, the way they develop racial abilities with feats works quite well - but it taks a lot of development so might not be suitable for customising any MM creature
3 - Racial Prestige Classes. Racial levels without the complexity. Basically downgrade the base creature to a core monster equivalent and give the abilities back as part of a prestige class. Need to be more careful balancing the levels than for the std progression as you have to assume PC's will dip what they like rather than guaranteed to go to the end
My preference would be for 1 as you can apply this to ANY non-core with minimal hassle
I think bringing in more racial "Levels" would allow LA to exist but not confuse the game anymore than it already is. I am not going to lie when me and my friends started playing and we say level adjust we didnt figure it out till about 2 years later. Even to this day theres a few things here and there that I am learning about character creation.
My vote is to keep it simple make them levels.
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A solution to this I'm thinking of is this.
Each Class follows it's own Experience table. Including Racial Classes.
In 3.5 for example, if you were a level 2 Fighter/Gnoll. you would be a level 3 character.
But, in this mod. you would pay 1000xp for level 2 fighter and 1000xp for the gnoll LA.
If you think about it, a FTR4/WIZ5 is not equal to a level 9 character. The level 9 has 36000XP. in my alternate system you would only spend 6000/10000, just over the equivalent to a 6th level character...
NOW, this is my initial stages of thought. It still has some flaws I need to work out...such as Hit Dice, Class Dipping, skill points, etc.
I feel this makes it more like 1e. Yet without unique tables of XP gain like 1e.
for Pathfinder I think the quick XP table would be used for Favored classes, medium for other classes, and slow for classes beyond 2.
Any thoughts? Flames? etc?