After reading the latest Alpha release, things look to be coming together, but one thing stands out as being a little bit out there to my mind, and that is the Barbarian's Rage energy attack ability. do Barbarians bring forth acid from their bilious gut, fire from their glaring eyes, cold from their icy demeanor, and lightning from their arses?! At least scrolling video games(like that old classic Golden Axe) needn't explain themselves regarding goofy things like this, but this isn't a goofy video game here.
The Barbarian, archetypal opponent of magic, has the generation of a magical effect built right into their class? Pure insanity I tell you. What you could do instead is to simply replce this energy power with an ability that allows the Barbarian to ignore *ALL* Damage Resistance for the round instead. Say its the Barbarisn indomitable will that allows them to hack through all defenses. That at least sounds plausible, and more importntly it is certainly more in character with the class. Plus, it allows Barbarians to face off more effectively agaisnt those unnatural cratures that have reater levels of DR in the first place(Beowulf vs. Grendel comes to mind).
Very heroic if you ask me, and much better than arse lightning attacks.
;)
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Gee this hasn't been rehashed 18 times in several other barbarian threads already, good thing we had you here to bring it to our attention lest it go unoticed, especially since this is supposed to be a playtest forum that the game designer is looking through and the most important thing to the game designer is your personal opinion about an optional class feature for those gamers that believe you wouldn't be able to get to level 10+ without gaining some magical ability.
I mean I personally am glad that you pointed this out to us because seeing how it specifically states that when the barbarian gets to this level he has to take this ability and he has to use it every time he rages or else he losses all class abilities. Since there is no way for a player to just ignore it if he feels it isn't right for his game I agree that we need to strike this horrendous slight to the intelligence of gamers everywhere from the game.
By the way, have I given you my thanks for creating a thread to point this out since it hasn't been brought up at all ever?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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By the way, have I given you my thanks for creating a thread to point this out since it hasn't been brought up at all ever?
Whoa! Lastknightleft - no need to jump on him! He's just raising a valid concern.
This community is pretty nice, and we generally don't skewer people like that. It would be really helpful if you provided a link for him to follow to the other threads where this issue is being discussed.
I'm not jumping on you, just sayin'. We're all friends here, we all love the game, it's all cool.
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I wasn't jumping his craw, he posted sarcastically, I responded sarcastically. funnily enough, I just was reading the feeding trolls and was coming back here to highlight the last message to ask if it could be taken as trolling.
As to wether it's a valid concern or not though, I honestly don't think it is. Yeah I could've toned down the sarcasm, but I was just in a mood, no hard feelings were meant to be had and if some were made my appologies. My point is that when your dealing with a character option I don't think that saying it should be removed has any weight, after all, if you DM and feel it has no place tell players not to take it, and if it is your barbarian, just ignore its existance, a lot of posters have been trying to say at least justify it with some flavor like spirits or something, but I prefer that they leave it free of flavor so that players who take it can make the justification fit their personal flavor, it's like when players back in 3.5 had the sorcerer/dragon ancestry shoved down their throats, they didn't like that either.
And I personally don't like it either. In fact I can honestly say I would never build a barbarian with it, but I'm not going to try and force my preference on others when it isn't being forced on me.
I agree with Eyebite.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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My point is that when your dealing with a character option I don't think that saying it should be removed has any weight, after all, if you DM and feel it has no place tell players not to take it, and if it is your barbarian, just ignore its existance,
With respect, LKL, that would allow any character option, no matter how unbalanced or contrary to the class's other abilities.
(EDIT: I had put a few examples here, but I'm not any more imaginative than you. Pick your favorite class or race, and some outrageous character option at an absurdly low level, and pretend I suggested that.)
If someone objected ("But dwarves don't have frikkin' laser beams!") your claim that "it's just a character option, you don't have to choose to have your character take it" would be equally valid.
Which is to say, not very.
These boards are intended to create a Pathfinder game that people can play "as is." If there's a rule that virtually every DM would change for her campaign, then we should let Jason know, so that he can change it for us.
As for the issue at hand, Barbarian energy powers, I concur with the original poster that it seems counter-intuitive, and for just the reasons he mentioned. Maybe 1d6 Anarchic-aligned untyped damage might make more sense.
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You don't think barbarians who worship a god of strength, war, and thunder might be able to produce lightning during their rages?
What about a tribe of warriors who model their rages on the power of the great wyrm black dragon who has been their tribal protector and patron for more than a thousand years?
Just because it's not suited to your barbarian doesn't mean that there aren't barbarians for whom it makes perfect sense. Please don't try to make my character for me - limiting mechanically valid options does exactly that.
On the other hand, the fact that the ability is way overcosted is a completely valid concern to raise...
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Just because it's not suited to your barbarian doesn't mean that there aren't barbarians for whom it makes perfect sense. Please don't try to make my character for me - limiting mechanically valid options does exactly that.
Good point, Shisumo. (Actually, elemental rage would allow your thunder barbarian or black dragon barbarian to access any of the four energy types. So why would the god of strength and thunder grant his savage followers the power to burn things with their arrows?)
But, again, your argument could apply to any character ability, any "mechanically valid option". Barbarians who revere displacer beasts might be able to shift their images during rage. Barbarians who follow the gods of madness might be able to turn themselves into aberrations for a round. The list is endless.
Name something a character might be able to do. I can construct a backstory for a savage tribe that would justify it.
Maybe those kinds of powers would work better as Prestige Classes. I'd rather keep the straight Barbarian restricted to the things Fafher or Conan would do.
On the other hand, the fact that the ability is way overcosted is a completely valid concern to raise...
Yeah, I was looking at that, too. I'm presuming that Jason was a little twitchy about giving a Barbarian, in Greater Rage, with whatever magic weapon she's weilding, a cheap way to add even more damage. (And unlike the weapon-enhancement damage, like flaming or shock, the additional damage from elemental rage is part of the damage that gets multiplied by two-handed attacks and critical hits.)
But, you're right, it's pretty pricy. A Barbarian using that kind of power for four rounds (while also being in Rage), spends 52 Rage points.
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But, again, your argument could apply to any character ability, any "mechanically valid option". Barbarians who revere displacer beasts might be able to shift their images during rage. Barbarians who follow the gods of madness might be able to turn themselves into aberrations for a round. The list is endless.
Name something a character might be able to do. I can construct a backstory for a savage tribe that would justify it.
Maybe those kinds of powers would work better as Prestige Classes. I'd rather keep the straight Barbarian restricted to the things Fafher or Conan would do.
If costed appropriately, none of those possibilities would bother me. The fact that they are innately tied to being in a rage is more than enough justification for me - I mean, the original bearsarkers were believed to transform into bears when they raged, shouldn't we allow the mystic rage option in a fantasy game that draws from those myths? There are more barbarians in the realm of fantasy than those Howard wrote.
And, for that matter, a bear warrior would have fit into Conan without any trouble whatsoever...
On the other hand, the fact that the ability is way overcosted is a completely valid concern to raise...Yeah, I was looking at that, too. I'm presuming that Jason was a little twitchy about giving a Barbarian, in Greater Rage, with whatever magic weapon she's weilding, a cheap way to add even more damage. (And unlike the weapon-enhancement damage, like flaming or shock, the additional damage from elemental rage is part of the damage that gets multiplied by two-handed attacks and critical hits.)
But, you're right, it's pretty pricy. A Barbarian using that kind of power for four rounds (while also being in Rage), spends 52 Rage points.
The problem is, by the time I can get it (level 12), I can have two choices: either 12 rage points for +1d6 energy damage, or 6 points for +12 damage of whatever type my weapon is (via Powerful Blow). Now, admittedly, I have to spend that 6 points on each attack, but unless I'm a two-weapon wielder, I'm only getting 3 attacks a round anyway. If I just burn those 12 points I would have spent on elemental rage on powerful blow instead for my first two attacks, my odds are much, much better for getting more damage through than if I just took my +3.5 points of fire damage (or whatever) for each attack.
I'm also all but positive that bonus damage expressed as dice is not multiplied by critcal hits, regardless of source.
LKL: Sorry for not veiwing every thread of every forum every day. Only the energy origins were sarcastic by the way; not the rest of the post.
It doesn't excuse your lack of tact though. Next time you could just say:
"This has alredy been duiscussed here<LINK>, here<LINK>, and here<LINK>." It gives the right message and makes you *not* look like an a-hole.
Everybody has their days where thye get riled though, so no biggy. :)
Energy powers based on a patron like a black dragon or something like that are more in the realm of a shaman's powers. A shaman might gift a warrior with a talisman or charm that might grant that ability, but a simple Barbarian warrior is not going to be conjuring energy forms. They should gain an ability that is more suited to Barbarians.
And no, I don't think a god of strength and war would grant lightning bolt ability to a Barbarian any more than a god of warmages would grant automatically confirmed critical hits to a Wiard who deicided to use a melee weapon. It is a matter of the ability suiting the class. You don't give Rogues the power to turn undead, and you don't give Barbarians the ability to use magic. That reasoning goes to what the core of the classes are all about to begin with.
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That reasoning goes to what the core of the classes are all about to begin with.
I disagree with this statement on about the most fundamental level possible.
Let's say that I come to you with a character idea: "I want to play a devotee of Thor, who channels his divine rage into bursts of fury and power, and eventually the ability to actually get a little but of his lightning for myself." You could tell me to play a cleric, but it really doesn't fit: I don't see the character as having any other special abilities than bursts of killing rage and an electricity power. What are you going to do with me? Just tell me no?
Classes are not about character definition. Classes are sets of mechanical packages that are used to describe a character, but well designed classes, particularly core, base class, should not be about "who" the character is, but rather "what" the character is - what they can do, not what their personalities are like. Deciding I want someone who has the ability to flip out and kill people should in no way limit me to some arbitrary standard of anti-magicalness. I should be able to define my character the way I want to, and have the mechanical tools available to me to do it.
This is one of the reasons why people get so frustrated with LG-only paladins, by the way.
If you want to have all your barbarians hate magic, that's fine and dandy. Seriously. It is totally cool. But what is not totally cool is arbitrarily attempting to limit other people's visions of what their barbarians should be like. I would highly recommend house-ruling out the powers you feel are inappropriate, and go on with your homebrew, but leave the rest of us the chance to go otherwise.
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With respect, LKL, that would allow any character option, no matter how unbalanced or contrary to the class's other abilities.
(EDIT: I had put a few examples here, but I'm not any more imaginative than you. Pick your favorite class or race, and some outrageous character option at an absurdly low level, and pretend I suggested that.)
Which is fine, because when it is an option the DM just has to say, hey guys you can't pick that, it's absurd and unbalanced. But here is the thing, this ability esspecially is actually not leveled to low, in fact I'm willing to bet that I could find people to make the argument that it's leveled to high. And the fact that it is overpriced is a valid concern. But lets just say for an instant that rogues had a class feature that let them at 3rd level say turn undead, then in my opinion as long as it A doesn't make the rogue better at it than the cleric and B isn't so powerful compared to everything else that people have to take it or be too weak to function. Then I say it's fine and that it becomes player and DM's choice to say no. You argue that it is too magical, I say that A it isn't killing the wizard B it isn't the strongest mechanical choice so you can just ignore it.
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Shisumo, LastKnightLeft,
You make a good point: if I don't want my barbarian, or my player's barbarian, to rage so hard that his sword drips acid, I can houserule that away.
What about "Pathfinder Society" organized play? Should I be able to tell the player who sits down at my table with a 14th-Level Barbarian fyrdman of Rovagug that he can't shoot lightning arrows with his rage?
Now, Jason knows Golarion far, far, better than I do. So there might, indeed, be a tribe of genii-blooded barbarians out in the desert who have elemental rage. But for barbarians of other backgrounds, it seems strange and counter-flavored.
Shisumo, your example of rogues with minor undead turning really helped me understand your position. You don't mind putting something like that in the rules, and then encouraging GMs to void those kinds of mechanicaly-appropriate options they don't like. I don't like them in the Rules-As-Written from a flavor perspective, but if a player wanted to argue a special case for allowing his holy rogue to take that, and the DM were willing, I can't see a problem with making a house rule allowing it.
I'm willing to shake hands on this and agree to disagree.
Specific mechanical oddities under the
The problem is, by the time I can get [elemental rage] (level 12), I have two choices: either 12 rage points for +1d6 energy damage, or 6 points for +12 damage of whatever type my weapon is (via Powerful Blow). Now, admittedly, I have to spend that 6 points on each attack, but unless I'm a two-weapon wielder, I'm only getting 3 attacks a round anyway.
3 attacks, plus haste, plus cleave follow-throughs, plus attacks of opportunity, plus rapid shot or multi-shot...
Did you notice that both elemental rage and powerful blow apply to ranged attacks as well? I would suggest to Jason: treat some of those rage damage bonuses as strength damage. So barbarians aren't taking people's heads off with flung beer bottles in a bar fight.
I'm also all but positive that bonus damage expressed as dice is not multiplied by critcal hits, regardless of source.
You might well be right. I couldn't find anything like that under "precision damage" in the Rules Compendium, but I may well have missed it somewhere else. If you could quote a source, I'd appreciate it.
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There's really no minefield, there really isn't. I had no intention of giving an impression that there is a minefield.
I just got a little too bitter sarcastic after leaving two other posts that were arguing about this and then finding this one new. I was trying for sarcastic deadpan, clearly I came across too acerbic and forceful. Trust me, this conversation is perfectly civil. I'm just trying to argue for the people who want those kinds of characters since a lot of the time it seems that the concern is in limiting options. I prefer lots of options, even if it means letting in options that I don't like, because if I get someone to cut an option I don't like the next thing I know my favorite option gets cut because someone else thought it innapropriate.
That's why we're in testing. So we can all work out what works and what doesn't. As well as address concerns, such as these.
I like that there are more "out of the box" options available for classes. And with the right fluff these could fit in. Granted, not every world will be appropriate for some options (or vice versa). Anything to avoid the cookie cutter classes.
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That's why we're in testing. So we can all work out what works and what doesn't. As well as address concerns, such as these.
I like that there are more "out of the box" options available for classes. And with the right fluff these could fit in. Granted, not every world will be appropriate for some options (or vice versa). Anything to avoid the cookie cutter classes.
Totally agreed
Here is something to keep in mind, effects like the elemental rage can work to pattern a character that uses rune magic or something similar. Picture a berserker who sings a runic chant in battle, calling forth the power of his god as a arc of lightning wrapped around his warhammer.