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Something I noticed reading over my Pathfinder Alpha ...
So stat-boosting magic items are relegated to belts and headbands. But it also says that non-affinity slot items are +50% cost.
Does that mean existing gauntlets of ogre power now cost 6,000 gp instead of 4,000, and are still available for creation?
I get what they are trying to do with this, but I'm also a bit upset that gauntlets of ogre power, such an iconic magic item, are no longer "standard" options. Most of everything else still feels very true to D&D, but for some reason, this change does kind of bug me, since its one of those items that even people with a passing idea of what D&D is have sometimes heard of.
Sure, I get that. I was wondering if the spirit or intent of the belt/headband issue was to keep gloves/cloaks from existing, or just make them less economically viable.
It's IMHO unclear at the moment because of the apparent contradiction in the Alpha 2 rules. I expect it to be clarified later, probably based on feedback and playtest results.
Jason has confirmed that a belt of strength and con is OK, and the second stat boost in that item would also be 50% more expensive.
I like the option that non-belts and headbands are 50% more expensive, because the gauntlets of ogre power are so iconic. But I haven't playtested at any level where item slots mattered, yet.
I remember the gloves of ogre power as well. But I don't have the sentimental attachment to them, any more than I have any lingering desire to go back to AD+D 1st edition.I get what they are trying to do with this, but I'm also a bit upset that gauntlets of ogre power, such an iconic magic item, are no longer "standard" options. Most of everything else still feels very true to D&D, but for some reason, this change does kind of bug me, since its one of those items that even people with a passing idea of what D&D is have sometimes heard of.
That's fine, but what about every NPC that has a pair in 3.5 adventures, or the fact that even if you "build" them as out of spot items, that screws with the treasure distribution, or the fact that, since they are pretty well used, you have to convert them every time they show up, and if that NPC already has a belt, then it takes even longer to convert . . .
I hate this new Rule if you Play Barbarian who Needs Con. Dex. Str. You can only get 2. For what? What kind of Magic items are going to Replace Gloves that can eventually give you +6 to stats. I really hate this Rule very much.
Hmm...a rule that makes the character rely more on the character and less on the magical Christmas decorations on them...can't say I dislike it.
My group has had a long running debate on if we should remove the stat-boost items from the game, or make them uses/day or X rounds a day items.
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I get what they are trying to do with this, but I'm also a bit upset that gauntlets of ogre power, such an iconic magic item, are no longer "standard" options. Most of everything else still feels very true to D&D, but for some reason, this change does kind of bug me, since its one of those items that even people with a passing idea of what D&D is have sometimes heard of.
Because they're slaying a sacred cow. Classic item gone because of rules change... and there's no way to make them work except ignore the rules.
Hmm...a rule that makes the character rely more on the character and less on the magical Christmas decorations on them...can't say I dislike it.
I don't believe that's what this rule does. Nor do I believe that any rule can do that and still be backwards compatible.
I'm fairly certain the designers at WotC have admitted multiple times that magic items are required at various levels for characters to be able to go up against appropriate challenges. So, eliminating those magical items and relying more on the character's class abilities and feats might sound all nice and good... I think it'd result in more character deaths and player/gm frustration than anything else.
Besides, looking at what Alpha 2 did... there are more slots for magic items in the SRD (bracers and bracelets, gloves & gauntlets). And the idea of restricting stat boosting gear to 2 slots was to allow characters to use more... magical... gear in those other slots without feeling restricted to the same choices every time (must boost stats, must have ring of protection, must have cloak of charisma, etc.)
Granted, the easiest way to accomplish this is with the second aspect of the magic item rules presented... which is to simply allow those common bonuses to be put onto anything (in an appropriate slot)... then you can have your boots of spiderclimb/Dex +2 and have something a bit more magical.
But the christmas tree effect will allows be around, I think. At least in 3.5
I get what they are trying to do with this, but I'm also a bit upset that gauntlets of ogre power, such an iconic magic item, are no longer "standard" options. Most of everything else still feels very true to D&D, but for some reason, this change does kind of bug me, since its one of those items that even people with a passing idea of what D&D is have sometimes heard of.Because they're slaying a sacred cow. Classic item gone because of rules change... and there's no way to make them work except ignore the rules.
Gauntlets of Ogre Power aren't illegal in Paizo Alph2!!!!!! You don't have to ignore the rules. Functionally, the diference is that they are 50% more expensive than before so if you have one you still have it and if you want to create one you still can. No house rule needed.
I'm fairly certain the designers at WotC have admitted multiple times that magic items are required at various levels for characters to be able to go up against appropriate challenges. So, eliminating those magical items and relying more on the character's class abilities and feats might sound all nice and good... I think it'd result in more character deaths and player/gm frustration than anything else.
I've run/played in many a game where there were only a single pair of gauntlets of ogre power present, and they weren't always on the fighter. Occasionally there were parties where they were non-existant. I think the designers may have underestimated their own concept.
My initial post was also somewhat flippant. I've never had a problem with breaking the rules regarding item slots, so long as it made logical sense. Want to wear a cloak over your vest? No problem. Want to wear an amulet and a medallion? Sure. Want to wear two pairs of boots at the same time? No; that's just stupid.
I've had a villain who's main claim to fame was wearing ten magical rings, a la The Mandarin from the Iron Man comics. He died, the rings were squabbled over by the party and split. No major impact on the game.
Still, I always hate it when a party of high level characters complains when they have too few magic items, especially when the impetus is that it took them twice as long as expected to defeat an encounter, when the end result is still them romping the monsters, taking no casualties, and getting more loot.
Maybe I should explain why I don't like stat-boost items that much and why I like this new rule.
1) Stat boost items are flavorless and boring after the first one is gotten kind of. The Cloak of the Mountebank is much more interesting and flavorful than a cloak of Charisma as your third stat-boost item...at least in my mind.
2) This rule allows for the option to exist at a higher cost. While I don't really like the concept of charaters sporting multiple stat-items, I do like to err on the side of options, and this change allows that.
3) Multiple stat-boost items are key for creating powergaming characters. You focus a charater on a narrow set of min/maxed stats and then blast those stats out, or compensate for a crippling one. While this is still easily possible, it's discouraged...the counter-effect being it's going to cost you something to stack them up.
4) Relating to number 1 and 3, this requires some more interesting tactics as opposed to repeating the best ones over and over again. A cloak of the mountebank, Gauntlets of rust, amulet of mighty fists, etc, add fun dimensions to gameplay that are lost when all the characters have those slots decked out with stat boosters.
5) Items that fill these extra slots in the game will now be much more special, making them a unique drop for the characters to find.
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Maybe I should explain why I don't like stat-boost items that much and why I like this new rule.
1) Stat boost items are flavorless and boring after the first one is gotten kind of. The Cloak of the Mountebank is much more interesting and flavorful than a cloak of Charisma as your third stat-boost item...at least in my mind.
2) This rule allows for the option to exist at a higher cost. While I don't really like the concept of charaters sporting multiple stat-items, I do like to err on the side of options, and this change allows that.
3) Multiple stat-boost items are key for creating powergaming characters. You focus a charater on a narrow set of min/maxed stats and then blast those stats out, or compensate for a crippling one. While this is still easily possible, it's discouraged...the counter-effect being it's going to cost you something to stack them up.
4) Relating to number 1 and 3, this requires some more interesting tactics as opposed to repeating the best ones over and over again. A cloak of the mountebank, Gauntlets of rust, amulet of mighty fists, etc, add fun dimensions to gameplay that are lost when all the characters have those slots decked out with stat boosters.
5) Items that fill these extra slots in the game will now be much more special, making them a unique drop for the characters to find.
Agreed 100%.
Agreed 100%.
Ditto
Maybe I should explain why I don't like stat-boost items that much and why I like this new rule.
1) Stat boost items are flavorless and boring after the first one is gotten kind of. The Cloak of the Mountebank is much more interesting and flavorful than a cloak of Charisma as your third stat-boost item...at least in my mind.
2) This rule allows for the option to exist at a higher cost. While I don't really like the concept of charaters sporting multiple stat-items, I do like to err on the side of options, and this change allows that.
3) Multiple stat-boost items are key for creating powergaming characters. You focus a charater on a narrow set of min/maxed stats and then blast those stats out, or compensate for a crippling one. While this is still easily possible, it's discouraged...the counter-effect being it's going to cost you something to stack them up.
4) Relating to number 1 and 3, this requires some more interesting tactics as opposed to repeating the best ones over and over again. A cloak of the mountebank, Gauntlets of rust, amulet of mighty fists, etc, add fun dimensions to gameplay that are lost when all the characters have those slots decked out with stat boosters.
5) Items that fill these extra slots in the game will now be much more special, making them a unique drop for the characters to find.
I also agree with these sentiments. I plan on either eliminating, or severely regulating stat boosting items in our next campaign, as my players also forego more interesting and unique items for the must haves: Stat boosters, natural armor amulets, cloaks of resistance. They have even said something along the lines of, "this item is pretty neat, I already have an amulet of natural armor however, so I think we should sell it." That line gets a little old after a while to a DM.
Contributor
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I'm going to throw something wacky out there, and that is that the stat boost spells need to be modified. Perhaps this has already been addressed and I missed it. If so, I apologize.
In my 3.0 games, no one bothered to take stat boost items as a general rule, and every caster took stat boost spells and cast as many as they could at the start of the adventuring day, because they lasted hours/level. The problem here was that no one ever took any other second-level spells, and casters got stuck just buffing the party.
Then in 3.5 they fixed this by nerfing the duration to minutes per level. Now no one in my group ever takes those spells because they are useless with such a short duration, especially when you can buy a permanent stat booster item.
I house-ruled a middle ground duration of ten minutes per level, and now the spells get used regularly but not frivolously, and PCs usually only buy buff items for one or two important stats. They count on the temporary buffs from spells and potions for the rest, and spend the rest of their money on interesting things.
Another similar fix I've been experimenting with is making the buff items (and many other 'always on' items into 'uses per day' items. It makes it easier to balance those items and makes both the item and spell useful.
As far as the two slots for these items only idea goes, I do think that works to make people fill their other body slots with more interesting items, but I'll reserve judgment until I can try it out.
This is something I'll have a hard time judging without playing it out. I can see it as a good thing and a bad thing at the same time, depending on how things unfold in a game.
Somewhat related, I never liked the Gloves of Dexterity. The flavor of the item never really jived with its end use for me.
"Here's these gloves that'll nimble up your fingers, for fine work like picking locks and such!"
"Oh cool! Now I'm better at dodging blows, I act quicker in combat, and I'm more agile when it comes to escaping firey doom!"
"Wait, no, you're supposed to be picking locks or something!"
"Nope. I'm gonna go shoot some arrows into someone, with super nimbleness!"
I'm going to throw something wacky out there, and that is that the stat boost spells need to be modified. Perhaps this has already been addressed and I missed it. If so, I apologize.
In my 3.0 games, no one bothered to take stat boost items as a general rule, and every caster took stat boost spells and cast as many as they could at the start of the adventuring day, because they lasted hours/level. The problem here was that no one ever took any other second-level spells, and casters got stuck just buffing the party.
Then in 3.5 they fixed this by nerfing the duration to minutes per level. Now no one in my group ever takes those spells because they are useless with such a short duration, especially when you can buy a permanent stat booster item.
I house-ruled a middle ground duration of ten minutes per level, and now the spells get used regularly but not frivolously, and PCs usually only buy buff items for one or two important stats. They count on the temporary buffs from spells and potions for the rest, and spend the rest of their money on interesting things.
Another similar fix I've been experimenting with is making the buff items (and many other 'always on' items into 'uses per day' items. It makes it easier to balance those items and makes both the item and spell useful.
As far as the two slots for these items only idea goes, I do think that works to make people fill their other body slots with more interesting items, but I'll reserve judgment until I can try it out.
I agree.
I think it should be 2pt + 1 pt per 3 levels.
At 3rd when you get it, it's +3 which is higher than any boost item you should have at that level....if you should even have any. By 6 it's normal, and at top it's still a useful spell at +8 to a stat.
I think the duration should stay the same though if that change is made ...+8 to a stat for for 18 minutes is good enough. That much for an hour and 20 minutes for a second is still a bit much.