My group has long considered the idea of converting the planetouched races to bein templates instead of proper races. I see no reason why this could not be implemented and it would still be fairly backwards compatible. Basically, they would increase the ECL of a race by 1 or 2. Keep the base racial abilities but then add on template abiliteis appropriate to each planetouched. I think this could add a lot of color and some nice options...Earth Planetouched Dwarves, Air Planetouhed Halflings, Infernal Planetouched Elves, etc etc.
Thoughts?
-Weylin Stormcrowe
This just makes sense! I like it!
...but it may not be as simple as comparing the planetouched with the humans and taking the difference, though, which was my first idea. There might be some balance problems if one type of planetouched gives a bonus to a race that's already good at whatever that bonus is.
Definitely worth looking into though!
Plenty of ECL +1 races that grant a +4 to an ability. I dont think that would be much of a problem. Could also end up with a combination that gave you a -4 penalty to an ability just as easily and often at the same time you get a +4 bonus.
There is also the detail that to myself and many I know the planetouched races are rather underpowered for an ECL+1 race. Especially now compared to the upped Pathfinder races. Giving a human based tiefling the abilities of both their base race of human and the template of tiefling would bring them closer to an ECL+1 race.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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I'm not a fan of Planetouched as templates because it gives everything that the base races has plus the abilities of the template. That's not what Aasimar, Genasi, and tieflings are. They are races unto themselves. A planetouched born into a race they should be different than that race both physically and metaphysically.
I'm not a fan of Planetouched as templates because it gives everything that the base races has plus the abilities of the template. That's not what Aasimar, Genasi, and tieflings are. They are races unto themselves. A planetouched born into a race they should be different than that race both physically and metaphysically.
As the edit of my above post mentions, planetouched are underpowered as is, Prime. This is even more the case with the changes to Pathfinder core races.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I think the templates could be a great improvement. Of course they would be rebalanced so that they can stack with a base race. Also they may not be presented as planetouched but as some varient, this all depends on the voice of the people.
For one I am fine with the template, and I know my group is being this has come up before.
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I'm not a fan of Planetouched as templates because it gives everything that the base races has plus the abilities of the template. That's not what Aasimar, Genasi, and tieflings are. They are races unto themselves. A planetouched born into a race they should be different than that race both physically and metaphysically.As the edit of my above post mentions, planetouched are underpowered as is, Prime. This is even more the case with the changes to Pathfinder core races.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Underpowered as LA +1 races, I agree. That's why I've always played them as LA 0 races. They were just fine in 2nd edition compared to the core races and they'll stack up to the PRPG races with a minimum of tweaking, especially the genasi.
I guess my beef is that mechanically the planetouched aren't half-creatures, they're not even 1/4. They're generations removed from their Outsider source, but they have enough of the potency of that bloodline to be different from the rest of their race. For example, an aasimar born to an elf or to a human shouldn't be as drastically different as adding a template to either base races would make them. Being able to call forth light, being resistant to several energies, being able to see in the dark and being more perceptive than average are traits that set aasimar apart from either humans or elves.
Underpowered as LA +1 races, I agree. That's why I've always played them as LA 0 races. They were just fine in 2nd edition compared to the core races and they'll stack up to the PRPG races with a minimum of tweaking, especially the genasi.
I guess my beef is that mechanically the planetouched aren't half-creatures, they're not even 1/4. They're generations removed from their Outsider source, but they have enough of the potency of that bloodline to be different from the rest of their race. For example, an aasimar born to an elf or to a human shouldn't be as drastically different as adding a template to either base races would make them. Being able to call forth light, being resistant to several energies, being able to see in the dark and being more perceptive than average are traits that set aasimar apart from either humans or elves.
The precedence is the fiendish and celestial templates in Monster Manual. Which are basically turning anything into any creature into a planetouched race. Planetouched races are simply versions of these templates refined into a specific race derived from humans instead of being a template applied to any race.
The level of removal from the planar parentage is variable...it can be as close as one quarter or as distant as 100 generations ago. The only thing it cant be is half as this is covered by other templates.
Partially, my problem is the human-centric view of these races (with only two real exceptions from Realms). There is no reason that non-human races should not be the base for them or that this would not alter the abilities. If elven blood is enough to hold its own against direct infernal heritage as in the case of a half-fiend/half-elf, I dont see why it would not do the same for planetouched races in whom that planar heritage is even more diluted.
So, I would rather see these become templates applied to any sapient race instead of races of their own.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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The precedence is the fiendish and celestial templates in Monster Manual. Which are basically turning anything into any creature into a planetouched race. Planetouched races are simply versions of these templates refined into a specific race derived from humans instead of being a template applied to any race.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Actually that isn't the precedence. Aasimar, tieflings and genasi were established races well before 3rd edition rolled out the doors and came up with the Template mechanics. The Celestial and Fiendish templates represent otherwise normal creatures that have lived long enough on a Good or Evil aligned Outer plane that they've taken on traits of said plane. They have nothing to do with having an Outsider's bloodline.
Now it's very easy to show why the Planetouched were humanocentric historically. Demihumans in D&D history have racial gods who created the races, while humans do not. This translates into a racial purity taboo. Just look at the prejudice inherent in the Half-elf throughout the editions. Elves traditionally didn't favor breeding with other races (or in some settings other subraces). Likewise you don't see many Half-dwarves running around. Humans however have always been the adaptive and curious sort, as well as outnumbering the demihumans.
In Golarion this might be different, but we have yet to see the planetouched developed beyond the one in Burnt Offerings or the tiefling guardsman of the Acadamae.
Actually that isn't the precedence. Aasimar, tieflings and genasi were established races well before 3rd edition rolled out the doors and came up with the Template mechanics. The Celestial and Fiendish templates represent otherwise normal creatures that have lived long enough on a Good or Evil aligned Outer plane that they've taken on traits of said plane. They have nothing to do with having an Outsider's bloodline.
Now it's very easy to show why the Planetouched were humanocentric historically. Demihumans in D&D history have racial gods who created the races, while humans do not. This translates into a racial purity taboo. Just look at the prejudice inherent in the Half-elf throughout the editions. Elves traditionally didn't favor breeding with other races (or in some settings other subraces). Likewise you don't see many Half-dwarves running around. Humans however have always been the adaptive and curious sort, as well as outnumbering the demihumans.
In Golarion this might be different, but we have yet to see the planetouched developed beyond the one in Burnt Offerings or the tiefling guardsman of the Acadamae.
Regarding, presedence it shows that such a template can be applied to any species. And in effect, those templates were derived from the Aasimar and Tieflings in the first place.
Regarding, racial purity issues. Who said the pairing that introduced the planar blood was voluntary. Also some races such as dwarves and elves have links with planar beings of either celestial or elemental nature. If from no other source than their own deities. It is unlikely that these links did not result in offspring at some point and as you pointed out, the heritage can 'slumber' for generations (which is a much shorter measure of time with long lived races). In at least one setting there are non-human derived plaentouched...Fey'ri and Tanaruk.
Regarding, half-dwarves. At least in Realms they are possible ancestry wise, though mechanics wise they are taller dwarves (closer to 5 feet) with occasional cosmetic traces of their non-dwarf parent. Which may be just about any humanoid race. This was covered in the Dwarves Deep book, especially as a setting solution to the dwarves low birth rate among themselves.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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I'd be all for templating if it was able to break up homogeny along the way, especially for Tieflings and Aasimar. I especially like it breaking away from almost always using a human as the base.
I can't remember which issue of Dragon had it, but there was a an article that had several charts to randomly generate or choose manifestations of a Tiefling's fiendish ancestry, be it physical appearance, ability score mods, spell-like abilities, etc. I'd love to see something like that implemented for some of the Planetouched "races" while having some standard benefits and penalties stay the same across the board, but I'd worry it would overcomplicate matters with a template involved.
I'd be all for templating if it was able to break up homogeny along the way, especially for Tieflings and Aasimar. I especially like it breaking away from almost always using a human as the base.
I can't remember which issue of Dragon had it, but there was a an article that had several charts to randomly generate or choose manifestations of a Tiefling's fiendish ancestry, be it physical appearance, ability score mods, spell-like abilities, etc. I'd love to see something like that implemented for some of the Planetouched "races" while having some standard benefits and penalties stay the same across the board, but I'd worry it would overcomplicate matters with a template involved.
Same here, Mikaze. Especially given their varied ancestry even among their own type. An aasimar descended from a Ghaele Eladrin should be different than one from a Trumpet Archon. A tiefling descended from a devil should be different than one from a demon. And that difference should be more than cosmetics.
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It was Dragon #235: Planar Heroes. But, planetouched in 2nd Ed. were more like half-fiends/half-celestials in terms of raw power. Although I'm using the tiefling as a template in my campaign (PC's base creature is dark elf), I must say that I like the randomness and individuality of 2nd. Ed. planetouched much better.
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It was Dragon #235: Planar Heroes. But, planetouched in 2nd Ed. were more like half-fiends/half-celestials in terms of raw power. Although I'm using the tiefling as a template in my campaign (PC's base creature is dark elf), I must say that I like the randomness and individuality of 2nd. Ed. planetouched much better.
I don't know what 2nd edition you're remembering nightflier, but planetouched weren't anywhere near the power level of the Half-Celestial/Fiendish templates. Not even close. In Planescape both tiefers and aasimar weren't anymore powerful than they are now.
There were some interesting tables in the Planewalkers Handbook and Warriors of Heaven to generate random racial traits and appearance for Tieflings and Aasimar respectively.
Fey'ri aren't a good example for elven tielfings in general because they were the product of a selective breeding program initiated by a single Gold Elf house. Tannarukk are just plain cool, but they were far more powerful than the average tiefling, a definite monster more than a playable race as originally designed.
Now I am most likely in the minority in my view, but I'm sticking with Pathfinder because it does respect the traditions and history of past edition canon. I will be quite interested in seeing how and where the planetouched fall in Golarion.
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Have you read that article in Dragon #235? The tiefling could cast fireballs and such at a very low level. It could have immunity to normal weapons, etc. Read the article. I was not refering to classical ADnD planetouched; I was talking about Skills&Powers planetouched. I mean, one of my players had an assimar wizard as a PC, who could cast Heal when he was first level...