Losing Prerequisites is dumb.

[K]

So, in the base system you lose PrCs and feats if some prerequisite is lost.

Basically that's dumb. Its mechanical and without flavor.

I don't really mind Ex-Assasins who are good. I do understand that some classes and PrCs have rules about what alignments you can be or other actions that can't be taken, but I see those as needed a "trade-in mechanic" (like clerics pick a new god for their new alignment, or paladins trade for blackguard or fighter levels).

Tragic heroes that used to be evil is prime fantasy stuff. Why should mechanics get in the way?

[Burrito Al Pastor]

I absolutely agree, within the scope of alignment prerequisites. Within the scope of other prerequisites, temporary magical modifiers make the rule a necessity.

[Orion Anderson]

For feats it actually makes a lot of sense; for PrCs it needs to go.

[Pathos]

Orion Anderson wrote:

For feats it actually makes a lot of sense; for PrCs it needs to go.

Comepletly agree.. For PRC's it SHOULD be about the character and not his gear, for acceptance into the Prestige Class.

[Evil_Wizards]

Do you loose a PrC upon loosing the prerequisites?

The SRD says:

"A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite."

and

"If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

I (and my trusty search engine) don't see anything else right now. Am I missing something?

---

Just a sidenote: There's a terminology difference, it seems:
Feat => Prerequisite
PrC => Requirement

[K]

Evil_Wizards wrote:

Do you loose a PrC upon loosing the prerequisites?

The SRD says:

"A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite."

and

"If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

I (and my trusty search engine) don't see anything else right now. Am I missing something?

---

Just a sidenote: There's a terminology difference, it seems:
Feat => Prerequisite
PrC => Requirement

The problem is that you lose all PrC powers if you lose a prerequisite. What this means is that you are a Revenancer of Yanthinshee or an assassin, and you suddenly become neutral or good, then your levels turn into Expert or Warrior levels or something. You have skills and HD, but all class features are lost.

Since there are items that give out feats, some people want feats to be the only thing that causes you to lose powers. I think a simple rule that items and spells don't let you meet prereqs is enough.

Frankly, I want it all gone. I don't want to lose my powers just because I no longer fit a criteria like "must be in the Arcanist's guild" or "must worship this particular god".

[hogarth]

K wrote:

Evil_Wizards wrote:

Do you loose a PrC upon loosing the prerequisites?

The SRD says:

"A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite."

and

"If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

I (and my trusty search engine) don't see anything else right now. Am I missing something?

The problem is that you lose all PrC powers if you lose a prerequisite.

To answer Evil_Wizard's question (which K must have missed), I don't believe it says anything about losing PrC powers in the SRD; I think it says so somewhere in the Complete Warrior splatbook. So I don't think it's possible for Paizo to remove something from the Core Rules when it's not in the Core Rules to begin with.

I agree that the feat prerequisite thing is dumb; if my 13 Dex fighter takes the Improved Grapple feat, he shouldn't lose it when he gets an Enlarge Person cast on him, IMO.

[Matthew Morris]

Two problems, balance wise.

1) Prestige classes were, once upon a time, meant to be specialized characters. "I'm not just a Rogue, I'm an assassin." "I'm not just a fighter, I'm a Dwarven Defender." To allow somone to lose the feats and not lose the class doesn't make any sense to me. "I can't expertise anymore since the lobotomy, but I still get to use all these nifty abilites based on expertise!"

2) With Retraining (PHB II) and Psychic Reformation (XPH, SRD) it can waive then entry cost to the feats. A wizard has to burn two feats on spell focus for archmage, for example. To allow him to get rid of two (questionable) prereqs and continue to throw arcane fire around, why would anyone -not- do that?

[Evil_Wizards]

Regarding PrCs: So, there doesn't seem to be a problem here.

Regarding feats: Temporary boni allow to buy a feat. A character with Dex 11 and a Belt of Dex+2 is allowed to take Improved Grapple. He can't use it, however, if he takes the belt of. If the latter weren't the case, he could just borrow the belt (or even have Cat's Grace cast on him) for a second and circumvent the Dex requirement completely. With Pathfinder giving skill ranks from intelligence buffs with a certain duration, this is a concern for all skills with skill prerequisites, too.
So, if you allow to use feats after loosing the prerequisites, there needs to be another rule to counter this obviously stupid exploit, e. g. disallow temporary boni to count as feat prerequisites or give them a minimum duration of a month or so.

The number of Feats where's it's even possible to loose the Prerequisites without some exploit involved is really small and - as far as I can see it - limited to alignment-specific feats (from outside core) and feats depending on ability scores or physiological characteristics.

With alignments... well... if there is, for example, a feat called Sadistic Maneuver, which gives you a damage bonus and requires evil alignment. Wouldn't it make sense that if the character got redeemed and changed to a good alignment, he'd never use this feat again? As a DM, I'd prefer giving him something else instead, not allow him to continue the use.

With abilities/body: If you loose an arm, you can't use two-weapon fighting*, if you get sucked to strength 8, you can't use Power Attack, and if you are transformed into a stumbling fool with Dex 5, you just can't use Deflect Arrows. I don't see a problem in that.

So personally, I'm okay with the current rule.

*Technically, you keep the use of the Feat, as only in Multiweapon Fighting is the number of limbs a prerequisite. You cannot use it anyhow.

[Evil_Wizards]

hogarth wrote:

To answer Evil_Wizard's question (which K must have missed), I don't believe it says anything about losing PrC powers in the SRD; I think it says so somewhere in the Complete Warrior splatbook. So I don't think it's possible for Paizo to remove something from the Core Rules when it's not in the Core Rules to begin with.

I just came across the Sage Advice on that confirming this:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080410a

Btw., they say BAB, HD and so on still work.

[Skjaldbakka]

Of course, that rules is dumb for other reasons as well. I believe the classic example is Dragon Disciple, which requires you not be a dragon as a prereq, but makes you a dragon at level 10 as a class feature.